. tonight on the ax files. >> let's have some fun, yo. >> always outspoken charles barky on turmoil in the trump era. >> i've never been nor angry and disgusted at the situation i am now. >> race relations in america, and his legendary basketball career. >> i said i'll get you ten rebounds a night in my sleep. >> welcome to "the axe files."

>> charles, good to see you. >> thank you. thanks for having me. >> lots to talk about, but i want to start by going backward and talking about leads, alabama, where you grew up. i read somewhere about the first day of leads elementary school, and some folks weren't so happy you were there because you were one of the first black kids to integrate this school. >> it taught me a lot about life that i actually use today because there were more people who were nice to us and who weren't nice to us, and i try to use that. anytime i'm involved with a conversation on race, you can't blanket any group. i mean i'm very particular about that, when i have that conversation. you don't blanket. all muslims are not terrorist.

all hispanics are not all illegal immigrants. i always parse my words because i think it's important. >> i think there was an interview with your mom that said in the early days, maybe it was the first day that your grandmother took you to school and past some protesters and had a pistol in her purse just in case. >> well, my grandmother, she's the greatest person ervin my life, but she's a regular -- >> johnny may edwards. >> johnny may edwards, and she was a are regular annie oakley. she was always packing heat. my grandmother, she was tough. she didn't take any bs off anybody. but she always had her piece and was not afraid to use it if push came to shove. >> you lived right near birmingham. >> yes. >> she was involved in that civil rights movement in the '50s and '60s.

>> my grandmother always growing up talked about civil rights, medger evers, even malcolm x. but she always talked about always remember these people. i mean she always talked about. especially when i was a little kid, but even when i became a teenager, don't forget because she's the reason that mohamed ali is the greatest sports influence in my life. i mean, she talked about these people all the time, and i really appreciate her giving me that foundation. >> she worked in a meat packing plant. >> my mom was a maid, and my grandmother worked in a meat packing factory. and they worked so hard. because you know i've had two brothers who passed away, so it was four of us total in the beginning. but they worked so hard, obviously you're not making a lot of money as a maid, and you're not making a lot of money in a meat factory. but we didn't feel like we were

poor. we didn't know it, but we were. we always had meals, good clothing. they did an amazing job. >> but race was -- you were born in the year the four little girls were in birmingham -- killed in the church in birmingham. so there had to be some sense of edge. >> there was always an edge, but you didn't know what it was until you started getting older. you know the really sad thing about all this stuff is they bomb the church the year i was born, and now in 2018 we're still having race problems. i just turned 55 so i can count, so for 55 years we still have this racism going on. we should grow as people. we should grow as a country. mohamed ali, i was reading up on him when he passed away, and he said if you're the same person

at 50 than you were at 20, you wasted 30 years. >> you did an interview in 2005 with my old boss, barack obama, just after he got re-elected to the senate. and he wrote some very and said some very nice things about him. and you said he has the qualities of someone who could run for president of the united states. but you didn't he could get elected president of the united states. >> i never thought in my lifetime we'd have a black president. never thought that. but what i said was he has the it factor. when you talk to him you're like, oh, he is the smartest guy in the room. he has charisma, has personality. and i said he's going to be something amazing one day. i never thought he'd be president. i remember the night he got elected.

i was sitting around with a bunch of my friends, and i got really emotional and teary-eyed, and they're like, dude, are you all right? and i said you guys don't understand. i'm from the south and the notion that in my lifetime there's a black president, i'm in shock. i mean i just couldn't believe it. >> let me ask you, do you think that trump is kind of a reaction to obama? >> no question. no question the people -- it's kind of like an overreaction. the situation with president trump is a total overreaction. and i just feel bad because anti-semitism, racism. people feel emboldened to do things and say things now. >> do you think he encourages that? >> yes, of course he does encourage it. the way he talks about muslims, the way he talks about pass panics, some of his interactions

with blacks, he definitely encourages it. >> why do you think he does it? >> well, i think he panders to his base. i don't know he won the presidency. i think they were voting against miss clinton more than anything. i really believe that. i think it's like they had two choices and they're like we don't like here, and this guy here is out of the norm, he wants to quote-unquote drain the swamp. i think that's why she lost the election. she lost it, he didn't wen it. but his actions, the way he's treated minorities has emboldened these other racists to be more bold, plain and simple. >> you said other racists. you feel he's a racist? >> i'm leery to call anybody a racist because some of the things he has said -- if you really pay attention because i

pay attention to politics. when a certain minority does something, he calls them out. but when that white kid shot up that church in charleston, he didn't say let's deport all white, he only talks about his immigration plan when it concerns minorities. but when some whites do some crazy things, he never says let's deport all these white people. even back to charlottesville, he did want condemn white supremacists. >> what impact do you think that has on the country? >> i live in arizona, and i think the hispanics are amazing people. do we have some bad hispanics, of course they do, do we have the bad muslims, of course we

dd do. like right now we're spending all our time talking about stormy daniels, russia. we got all these kids with daca who are amazing people who we need to stay here, we never talk about them. i mean i'm so disgusted with the whole thing to be honest with you. because, like, we got the worst public school system in the world. you know, people talk about economic opportunity. there's only economic opportunity if you're rich. >> one of the reasons that you are so popular, beloved is you say whatever the hell you want. >> yes, sir. >> you don't edit yourself. and people say that guy's authentic. i may not believe in him but i believe him. >> and that's important tohy.

someone in montana, south dakota, l.a., maine, rhode island, they're supposed to believe what i say. and i take great pride in that. >> the reason i ask this is trump supporters say he speaks his mind, he's authentic. do you think that is part of his appeal? >> i think that's some of his appeal. but i think nobody ever wants to look in the mirror and say it's my fault. i think he reached a demographic that won't look in the mirror and say my life sucks because of me. then he came right after president obama and some people are like, wow, we got a black president. they're not happy with that. and i think it was just a perfect storm. and listen, i never talk about bad about the president. i'm going to be factual. i've never been more angry and disgusted at this situation than i am now.

this turmoil every single day, the tweeting, the hiring and firing, like, dude, i'm blessed and you are, too. like it really ain't going to have a big effect on our life, but i actually have humanity. i want everybody to have a good life. i want everybody to have a good job. i want their kids to go to school. i want their kids to be safe. i want everybody to have economic opportunity. and i want to make sure we don't forget about daca. our public schools -- i don't want to forget about those poor people in puerto rico, either. i was watching the news last night and still six months out they don't have peweower. we're mentioning things like stormy daniels and russia. >> you don't think russia is an issue? >> i do not. i think it's probably true -- but i'm pretty sure in area

election, state, local, national, somebody can get some dirt on somebody if they wanted to. what good -- >> isn't that a concern, though? >> what's the end game is my question. is he going to get -- is he going to lose his job? is he going to be impeached. first of all, i don't want russia interfering in our election, and i'm pretty sure they did. >> so thank you it's a distraction? >> it's definitely a distraction. we have spent the last year talking about russia every single day. now we got stormy. now we got another girl. and i'm sitting here saying when are we actually going to help the people? coming up next on "the axe files." >> everybody in my life have voted democrat, and now we're starting to like, how much has

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you've done a series of shows on race and you travel around the country talking to people about race. and you hear that things are worse than they were before -- >> no, that's not true. >> and i think about your childhood in alabama and what was going on back then, and, you know, i wonder if -- >> first of all, anyone who says race relations aren't better, that's just idiotic. racism does exist and always will, but for people to say things aren't better that's just ridiculous. i mean i can actually enter a restaurant i want to, go in the same bathroom and drink out of the same water fountain. that stuff, but what i talk about is economic racism, when you don't give people economic opportunity. and i actually think that we spend too much time talking about race.

america is divided by economics. racism does exist. i'm not giving anybody a pass on that. we put all the poor people in bad neighborhoods, we send them to bad schools. we don't give them economic opportunity. we spend so much time talking about racism, we're over here like wait a minute, somebody is calling me a name and things like that, that's just ignorant. i ignore that. but how do we balance the economic situation? that to me is the biggest problem we've got in this country right now. >> one of the things i remember from that series is you went to baltimore where the issuing of policing is really -- >> i was bothered by that because some people in the black community say i support the cops. and i say you damn right i support the cops. i always support the cops. that does not mean i want unarmed black men killed or police doing anything illegal.

two things can be correct. first of all, if it wasn't for the cops, we would be living in the wild wild west. but some of my critics have tried to say just because i support the cops i'm for unarmed black men getting killed and things like that, and that's really unfair. that's just really unfair. and i can deal with the criticism. like i say i'm going to always support the cops because we need them. that being said, i don't ever want any unarmed black men getting killed or being abused or anything like that. >> there was this horrific massacre in florida that sort of captivated the country. i come from chicago. there are communities that are killing fields every day. and, you know, you talked earlier about your grandmother being annie oakley. and you got famously pulled aside once with a gun in your car. >> i always carry my gun. >> you're not armed now? >> no, i'm not armed.

>> i might have to edit some of nigh questions if -- >> no, i believe in carrying a gun. i do, and i'm never going to apologize for that. that being said, when it comes to guns they should do a comprehensive background check on everybody. i can't even believe we're having this conversation. like if i walked into a mercedes dealership and say give me that ma mercedes, they wouldn't say go ahead and take it, we'll do a background check later. you should be able to find out every single thing you've done in your life and that's ridiculous. they should be able to find out everything you've done in every state, every country and that's the least we could do. >> what about these semiautomatic weapons? >> nobody needs that. they're just to kill people. >> so most of america agrees on the things that you're saying.

certainly the background checks, majority never changes. why? >> well, because -- you know, these last couple presidential elections they cost a billion dollars for a job to pay $400,000. it's so much money involved in this stuff that's crazy. but there's so much money coming from all these special-interest groups. politics are so corrupt now. i don't even know if you can put the toothpaste back in the tube, but the nra is so powerful. >> you got involved in the alabama senate race between doug jones and roy moore. why did you decide to go down and get involved? >> i was embarrassed for my state. you know, when i went down every news organization in the country was there. and why were they there? to see if we were stupid enough to vote for roy moore.

they don't care about no alabama senate election. they were there to see the train wreck. and as a proud alabamian, i was disgusted and embarrassed that we were looking like idiots to the world. doug jones was a good man. i don't know roy moore. i'm not a roy moore fan. but i was just embarrassed that my state was looking like it is around the country. when he brought in steve bannon, to me that was the last straw. >> why is that? >> because he's a white separatist. we can't have a politician running for office that we know is white separatist. we can't have that. he brings in steve bannon, and i'm like, wait, you can't bring in a white separatist and run for a state office. you're supposed to represent everybody. >> i remember on election night you said that democrats had taken black voters for granted.

>> you're democrats, and i told mr. jones this and i love doug, they've taken the black vote and the poor vote for granted for a long time. >> i voted democrat for 55 straight years, and first of all i want to make clear, i don't think republicans are better. but i think we as black people have not held democrats accountable for taking our votes for all these years. i look in my hometown, i don't think other than the fact i was able to dunk a basketball, i don't see a lot of change in my neighborhood or my state. i have an issue with both parties. but i think speaking as a democrat we -- we have not held the democrats accountable. everybody in my life has voted democrat our entire life. and now we're starting like, well, how much has it really helped us? like i say we know the

republicans aren't better, let's get that out the way. but if you're going to start having us vote for you, your schools are not better, crime is not better. so we've got to start holding these politicians accountable. >> while that race was going on in alabama trump launched this attack on colin kaepernick. >> yeah, i think what colin kaepernick did was amazing. now, he's probably never going to play in the nfl again. the president hijacked the conversation. >> wouldn't you love to see one of these nfl owners when somebody disrespects our flag to say get that son of a -- off the field right now? he's fired? >> i don't think colin had any disrespect for the flag. it's a really awful situation. >> you know he was raising the issue you were speaking about

before which is about police abuse of power. >> yes. and the president hijacked the entire scenario. see, he did that in alabama because he knew that was his red meat. you know, he plays to his audience very well. ahead on "the axe files." >> i hear these guys get on tv and talk about we got to play these players. i talk about, okay, how are you going to do it? these birds once affected by oil

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basketball court. parents should be role models. >> should athletes be political models? >> well, i think it's up to each individual. first of all, that role model commercial is probably the best thing i ever did in my whole life because it sparked a nationwide debate. what i was trying to do is get a conversation going. because i noticed something, every black kid was thinking they were going to play prosporpr pro sports, and it was driving me crazy because we still have segregated schools in this country. so i'm going to this white school and i say, hey, you guys what do you guys want to do? how many want to play pro sports? i want to be a doctor, a lawyer, i want to be an engineer. and then i go to a black school. i say how many of y'all want to play sports inthey say me, me, me, like 95% of them. so the group i got with me,

they're like, dude, it's the same in every school. and when i got to nike, i say this is going to be controversial but i want to do it. i say i can take a heat but it'll start a dialogue. even today i have people come up with me and say great commercial. >> i remember i was with you at the bill russell statue. he's sort of a mentor of yours. >> i call him mr. russell. everybody does. he calls me one day and i saw his number come up. he says charles barkley, i said yes, sir, mr. russell. he says, hey you grew up in alabama, right? i said, yes, sir. did you go to public school? i say, yes, sir. did the cops every come to your neighborhood? i say yes, sir. he says, okay, did a house catch on fire and the fire people

cam came. i say you know what, mr. russell, you will never hear my complain about my taxes again, and it was a very interesting lesson for me, because i do think rich people should pay more taxes. i'm blessed to me one of them and we should pay more in taxes. but i learned my lesson. >> the thing that was interesting about that, he was resistant to having a statue in boston in part because he dealt with racism there. when he finally agreed to have the statue built he asked it be put outside the public library not the arena. and when you spoke there you talked about education, not about basketball. and you said you never talked to him about basketball. is education a civil rights issue of our time? >> education -- the problem is with black kids, they have

brainwashed our kids to think they can only be great in athletics and entertainment. and 99.9% of people have to go out and get a real job. i never talk to these kids about athletics. because like i say they're not going to be a charles barkley, michael jails, if you are, bless you. but the truth is most people in the world have to go out and get an education. and that goes with something else i talk about a lot. you know, the college system is not 100% great. but you know what? it's great to get a free education. is everything perfect -- you know i hear these guys get on tv and talk about we got to pay these players. okay, how are you doing it? are you paying the basketball team, the football team, the diving team, are you paying the girls teams? getting a free education is not a great thing. >> you talked about the ncaa and should players be paid and so

on. there is this sense at a lot of schools these kids are tremendous assets to the school, they make a lot of money. but the question is how much do the schools invest in them as students and not as athletes? you saw the thing at north carolina a few years ago where they were creating phony and so on. if the school treats them as professional athletes rather than as students and most of them aren't going to be in the nba as you say, isn't the ncaa letting them down? >> the ncaa has not done a great job. going back to my time, they just give you classes to keep you eligible. so that's got to be fixed. but like i said the notion you can get a free education, that's a big deal. everybody says, well, we should

pay these kids, but they don't give you a solid plan. because you can't just pay the basketball or football team. you've got to pay everybody. and that's great if you're the quarterback and running back. nobody is buying a big ugly defensive lineman and oofsiffen lineman's jersey. if i'm in the locker room and i'm charles barkley and i look at the stands and there's 10,000 charles barkley jersey ares and i look around the room and these guys are like -- it's going to bring a ton of resentment from the other players. if they're making an extra mill a year with their jerseys and i'm not getting a dime, i'm not going to be happy with that. >> you're such a champion of education, and a lot of these

kids you say they're not going anywhere. >> 99% of them. >> and if they're not taking that seriously and the school isn't taking it seriously for them. >> when i first started doing march madness, that was the number one thing i said. because i was happy doing the nba. they were like we want you to do it, and it turned into a blessing. it's been amazing. but i said this is what i want in return. i need you to start graduating more of these players. and i think they're getting better. they're not where i want them to be. any player who doesn't make it -- who wants to graduate, they should keep a scholarship as long as possible. up next on "the axe files." >> you know that's one of the great sorrows of my life that we're not friends.

let me ask you about your own amazing career. now that i know that you're unarmed right now, let me just say you are a undersized, plump kid, and you became one of the greatest athletes of all-time. but back in leads you told your mom i'm going to be an nba player and i'm going to get you anything that you want, and you did. what made you different? >> well, i grew from 5'10" to 6'5", that's the main thing. i grew from 5'10" to 6'5" in one year. >> but you didn't make the team. >> i did not make the team that year. the best thing that happened to me was being 5'10" because i

played point guard. the best ability i had was to dribble the ball. so even though the guys were bigger, i had the advantage because they didn't want to get out on the floor. >> after shooting day and night, jumps over a 4 foot wall, is that right? >> i did. because i want to get my legs as strong as possible. what's really ironic it's come full term. i just wanted to go to college for free. i just wanted to get a free scholarship. my dad left a long time ago. but i knew my mom and grandmother couldn't afford it, and i didn't want to borrow a lot of money. and even up until my sophomore year in college i'm not even thinking about the nba. i'm a 6'5" power forward, but i'm going to get a quality education.

rebound was my thing, and my coach said if you get -- he showed me the stats one day. he says how many guys in the nba you think averaging double digit rebounds? i said 30, 40? he says, nope, that's about ten. he says can you get me ten rebounds a night? i said i can get you ten rebound a night in my sleep. and he said if you get me ten rebounds a night you'll play in the nba for ten years or more. i said, coach, you got me. like jerry mccguire, you had me at hello. >> you played with a kind of fury. >> i had to. i was always the shortest guy out there in the post. and i had to play with a -- but it got me in trouble, though. it got me in trouble because,

you know, i was mad at the world for a long time. i was mad at my dad. my junior year i got hurt, we lost for the state championship my junior year. my senior year we were like undefeated and i got hurt again and we lost again. i was totally depressed. so i quit school for like a week. i was just -- i was just fried. i couldn't believe we had lost. so i got it back together, but i ended up flunking spanish. so i didn't get to graduate. so in my hometown we graduated outside on a football field. my dad actually came to town and he ripped me a new one, and i was already in a fog. i was out of it. so i went to the baseball stadium. it was next door. and i stood on the top rung and

cried for two hours. >> and watched the graduation that you weren't involved in. >> and i said this is the last time in my life i'm going to let anyone control my destiny. and my first x amount of years in the nba i was mad at my dad, mad at ms. gomez for flunking me in spanish. and i played. and then i had the spit incident in new jersey. >> spitting on a fan. >> yeah, with lauren. and that changed my whole life. a negative thing changed my whole life because i had to sit down and say, yo, man, you got to let this thing with your dad go. i don't know why you're mad at ms. gomez. it was your fault for flunking spanish. first of all, it was your fault for taking spanish. and i said you need to take a step back and just want to be great at basketball for

yourself. it was -- it was my moment of truth. it was my moment of truth. and i said you can play basketball to try to stick it to everybody else. you know all those kids who laughed at you in high school you didn't graduate when they graduated, you need to let that go. and i sit down and i cried. it was emotional. i said, okay, from this day forward i'm just going to be a great player for myself. and that was the turning point in my life that night in new jersey. because at that point i was saying i want to be great to stick it to these people, these people, these people. and i had to take it a look in the mirror and that was the turning point. >> let me ask you about being great in professional sports, in the nba, there are a bunch of elite athletes. but then there are the sort of the charles barkleys, the michael jordans, who i watched for 13 years.

what is it that separates those people who are physically gifted, it seems like there's a mental component, too. i never thought when michael was on the court, that the bulls would ever lose. you always thought he'd figure out a way. >> yeah. well, there's a tremendous amount of pressure is what it is. because it's a double-edged sword. like i'm not on michael jordan's level. i'm a step below. i'm man enough to admit. >> is there anyone on his level? >> no, coby's a step below, lebron is a step below, but m e michael's here. but you get all the credit and you get the blame. that is mental pressure, first of all, very few people can handle it. even today well, charles barkley has never won a championship.

and i got to live with that. the point about being great, it's kind of a double-edged sword. you get all the credit but you also get all the blame. and that's that thing that drives you. >> so my supposition is that the ability to take pressure and deal with it -- because there are a lot of guys who say i want the ball when the game is on the line, i don't want to take the last shot. and the guys who are great are the ones who say i'll take care of this. >> basketball players, we're like full time relief pitchers. because i know every night, like a great closer -- you have to have a very tough mind. because you have to be like, i missed that shot last night. and you feel that pressure internally, but also you feel like you let the rest of the guys down.

but you have to have that mentality, we've got a game tomorrow. and the mental part is the thing you have to master more than anything. >> jordan is famously hypercompettive guy. >> yes. >> i hear he was unhappy when you criticized the charlotte franchise. >> yes, that's one of the great s sorrows of my life we're not friends. and i love the guy like a brother. he was like a brother to me, and that hurt a lot, number one. but you know, i think it's important in my job to be fair and honest because if you have a double standard -- because i say stuff about other people, too. you can't say things about other general managers's coaches and

don't say it about your friends. one thing about basketball it's such a close-knit community. and i've had players call me, coaches call me, general managers call me, and i say listen, i'll explain to you why i said it. and it works out most of the time, but that's one of the great sorrows of my life losing a friend like that. >> you guys were all on this dream team 1992 at the olympics. if you put a great group of athletes, basketball players together, they have the greatest players in the nba, could they have beaten that team? >> not even close because we didn't have any weaknesses. every we were two deep in the position, and we were big. we were athletic. we had it all. >> up next, on "the axe files". >> i just hope when i keel over people say he had a good run. we're going to miss him and

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at&t doesn't. we offer more complete reliability with up to 8 hours of 4g wireless network backup. at&t, no way. we offer 35 voice features and solutions that grow with your business. at&t, not so much. we give you 75 mbps for $59.95. that's more speed than at&t's comparable bundle, for less. call today. mark cuban, the owner of the dallas mavericks, he's talked about running for president. what do you think about that and the whole celebrity candidate thing? >> well, i think, first of all, i think mark -- first of all, i'm bias. he's a great friend. i think his heart's in the right place. i think he would do a good job

as president. on we'll have more celebrity presidents going forward. >> is that good? >> it depends on the celebrity. you know, i think when you look at president trump, and i was trying to explain his personality to my friends, and on. >> i'm eager to hear this. >> this is my personal opinion and i'm an amateur psychologist right now. so he goes to school. he's successful. gets out of school, his family helps him start a business. he's 21, 22, somewhere in there, so he's got millions of dollars right out of the gate and turns that into, quote, unquote, billions. he's 20-something years old. thou he's 70. he's never worked for another person a day in his life.

he's always been the boss. guarantee anybody who ever said something he didn't like, they were really fired, so you can see how he's developed this mentality, i'm also right. i don't have to listen to other people. i mean, think about it. for 50 years he's always been the king, and now you're the president of the free world, and you can see why he's an ego maniac run amok. >> what about you? you said a few years ago, i really believe i was put on earth to do more than play basketball and stockpile money. i want to help people improve their life and what's left is to decide how to do that. and you and i have talked politics and you've talked about running for governor of alabama at one time. is that something that you'd still consider? >> not really because i'm disgusted in the political

process. what i mean by that is i don't want to go to work and argue with somebody every day. i'm -- >> that's what you do on "inside the nba". >> but they pay better. they pay better on that. like, when i'm watching television every day, the republicans and democrats disagree on every subject. that's impossible. that's impossible. i can bring a guy in here from the ku klux klan, and i'll guarantee you we can agree on something. we might have totally different lives and whatever, but we're not going to disagree on every single subject. when i'm watching television every day, i'm, like, come on, man. you can't disagree on every subject, and that's the reason i don't want to get involved in politics. >> when you're done, hopefully, a long time from now, what do you want people to say about charles barkeley? >> you know, i'm not even worried about a long time. listen, i'm 55. if i ain't done nothing good by

now, it don't matter. i tell people that all of the time, and they look at me, like, i don't want to die, but i've had a 55-year good run. i've exceeded all my expectations. trust me, when you're growing up in the projects of lees, alabama, your mom's a maid, your grandmother worked at a meat packing factory and you grow up to be charles barkeley. i've been all over the world and met the most amazing people and the president brought me to the white house a couple of times, and it was so funny. there was a picture when i was there one time, was there a picture and i've got it on my wall of me and president obama standing in the oval office. i must have got 25 phone calls from people in my hometown. it's a very small hometown and they're, like, we can't believe you are in the white house in the oval office with president obama and that shook me. they were so excited that somebody in their little small

town was in the white house with president obama in the oval office, but to get back to your point, man, i think i've done some stupid things in my life. i've done some great things in my life. i always joke about this and it's a joeske, but it's true. everybody at the live funerals can say what a great guy and let's be honest and there are some people that die and you're, like, i'm glad they're gone. i'm glad they're gone. i just hope when i keel over people will say he had a good run. going to miss him and that's it. >> that's guaranteed, my friend. >> thank you. >> thank you for having me. >> that was awesome. for more of my conversation with charles barkeley, go to cnn.com/axefiles. ♪ ♪ the following is a cnn special report.