today? >> what i think is that there's nobody better to go up against robert mueller to redefine what we're supposed to be after. and that's collusion here and trying to get to the facts of was there collusion that happened during the 2016 election? that's what's so frustrating to us as trump republicans is we don't see any collusion. >> well -- and we lost your satellite. eric mecina, you're coming back. eric b breech, you are, too. they're pulling the plug on me. welcome to "inside politics." i'm dana bash. john king is on assignment. rudy giuliani told me in a phone conversation this morning that there is no daylight between him and president trump on this new blockbuster strategy coming clean that the president actually reimbursed his lawyer/fixer michael cohen for hush money payments to porn star

stormy daniels. plus, mixed messages from the white house on whether north korea will release three american detainees there any time soon. and an unusual recanting of what it's like to be grilled by the special counsel from a former member of trump's team. >> they know more about what i did in 2016 than i knew. they reminded me of a dinner and the name of the restaurant and the time of day that i had totally forgotten. it was not a very memorable meal. these guys are ready for whoever comes into that room. it's a very unpleasant experience. i likened to a pro cc trproctol but i think i prefer the probable cause topro cto lojist. >> he revealed that he reimbursed michael cohen for hush money payments to porn star

stormy daniels. >> that money was not campaign money. sorry, i'm giving you a fact you don't know. it's not campaign. no campaign finance violation. >> they funneled it through a law firm. >> funneled it through a law firm and the president repaid it. >> he did. >> yeah. >> there is no campaign finance law. >> zero. >> that came, of course, after the president and his staff had repeatedly and vehemently denied knowing anything about the $130,000 paid to daniels before the election. so why the 180? well, giuliani told me this morning that the strategy in revealing this now is to wrap this up so it doesn't take on a life of its own. i asked if they were worried that the feds seized documents in the michael cohen raid that maybe proved the president paid the hush money. giuliani said no, they are insistent they can win the legal

battle saying the cohen raid was improper and the things that were seized wouldn't even be able to be used legally in any way, shape or form. but then, of course, there is grumbling we are hearing from the west wing today from white house staffers upset they were caught flat-footed in all of this. with that, giuliani was unapologetic. he said the president is his client and he doesn't talk to the white house staff. on that, let's head straight to cnn's kaitlyn collins at the white house who has been doing some excellent reporting on this topic. kaitlyn, fill us in on what you're hearing from your sources. >> reporter: well, dana, imagine you're someone who works in this white house and for the last few months, you've been maintaining very strictly the president did not know anything about this payment, did not have any communication with michael cohen about this, backing up with the president himself said less than a month ago, i should note, on air force i, he didn't know where that payment came from, and the president's new lawyer rudy giuliani who has been on

board for less than a week who does not work in this white house went on fox news and made this explosive that president trump did reimburse michael cohen for the payment, and he did know about the payment. the white house staffers were really caught off guard by this. they did not expect rudy giuliani to make those statements last night. so between last night and the interview this morning, they feel he's undermined their entire defense strategy not just on stormy daniels and what they've been saying the last few weeks, but also with regard to former fbi director james comey and white house staffers. the white house feels this is out of their control now, because the president and giuliani speak, and giuliani clearly goes on fox news, talks about what he and the president discussed and leaves the white house really in the dark here, dana. >> it's certainly not the first time, but maybe the most important time that the president has acted as his own communications director. and look, let's be honest here,

kaitlyn. giuliani actually told me this morning that there is no daylight between him and the president, and it seems pretty clear that he's right. a lot of data points for that, but one in particular is the president's twitter feed. when he's not happy with someone in his inner circle, he makes that clear no matter how close they are. this morning his tweets backed up and amplified what rudy giuliani said. >> you know when donald trump is happy with someone and when he's not. when it was said that they were involved, he quickly got on twitter and said they were not. he also said he did pay back michael cohen for that payment, explaining it's not a campaign violation and adding that he did have an affair with stormy daniels, the woman michael cohen made that payment to. he was not upset with what rudy giuliani said. the president spoke after that

last night, and this just goes to the white house being caught flat-footed and that the president is his own best communications director and there is no doubt about that. >> it seems about this in particular because this is about his own legal issues, and he's dealing with his close friend, rudy giuliani, who is now his lawyer. absolutely fascinating. thank you for that report, kaitlyn. here at the table to share with me their insights, michael scherer with the "new york times," savio capore. michael, you wrote the time's piece this morning about all of this. what is your sense from talking to sources there about the president and giuliani and why now? >> i think we're still trying to figure that out. i must say there is some level of satisfaction as a reporter

who scrambled late at night to get this story to sort of think about the fact the white house staff was also scrambling in the same way. >> misery loves company? >> right. clearly the president's staff has been in upheaval for several days, several weeks, people coming in, going out, and the flood coming in, the tide going out. in some ways there shouldn't be a surprise that as the people are leaving, the strategy is changing as well. what's hard to understand is why they think or what legal advantage they think they are providing by essentially admitting that they've been misleading the public for a long time about what the president knew and when he knew it. i think what we're all going to have to try to figure out over the next hours and days is there has to be, between the president and giuliani, there has to be some reason that they discussed that they thought they were going to create a legal advantage by this.

>> let's just remind our viewers exactly what the president and michael cohen himself have said about this. let's just start back when this became public february 13 is. in a private transaction in 2016, i used my own personal funds to facilitate a payment of $130,000 to ms. stephanie clifford. neither the trump organization or the trump campaign was a party to the transaction with ms. clifford, and neither reimbursed me for the payment, either directly or indirectly. the payment to ms. clifford was lawful and was not a campaign contribution or a campaign expenditure by anyone. but donald trump did talk to reporters. here's what he said. >> do you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no.

no. what else? >> then why did michael cohen make those if there was no truth to it? >> you'll have to ask my attorney. >> lying to the press is not a crime. happens a lot, as much as it pains us to say. if he did pay him back, it would also be different. >> right. you can believe his lawyer will try to tell us anything, not to their advantage in that particular legal battle. it also generally speaking opens up the question about where else has the president and potentially michael cohen and other people in their dealings been spinning this truth to the public, just been flat outlying about what they do and what they

know. >> you have to ask the question for two different venues, right? does it matter in the. no matter how the story changes, how much is this affecting how much they trust him, because if he's not up for reelection, that can matter for the midterm election. >> turns out there is a player who is listening, james comey, who just tweeted what we're talking about. he said, i know the newark fbi. there are no stormtroopers there, just a group of people devoted to the rule of law and the truth. our country would be better off if our leaders tried to be like them rather than comparing them. >> there is a legal issue that comes out of this. one is a credibility problem,

but campaign finance is very much real in terms of this payment. george conway shlgt a conservative lawyer, tweeted t out, giving money for federal office is not considered personal funds of the candidate and it is a limit, which is just 130 per. >> let's go back to what james comey just did. he's defending the raid on michael cohen. he's defending the individuals working there who did it, and that is obviously to combat what giuliani is saying and what he told me, he insists is part of their -- the relief that they think they're going to have, which is since their args r argument, that the raid was not legal.

therefore, anything seize the. . you have to subplot going on here which is no small thing. >> the federal court should be taken through its pasz any time it raid pz a house. they have to show their work to any extended wat way. do does. morally we can just assume math many are not surprised trump would do such a thing with stormy daniels, but the many problems how this ended up may be a problem. >> do you think that even in the trump world? >> i don't know about the trump world. on the margins in a midterm election and trying to turn out

base voters, possibly. but legally i am still unsure that a $130,000 fec violation, no matter how smutty it is, is a gigantic -- there have been gigantic fcc violations in the past that have been paid with fines less than $130,000, so i do wonder where that heads. >> then you have giuliani making the case as part of this, that this was for personal reasons that he did this, not political reasons. to protect his family, his wife, his reputation. >> this was for personal reasons. the president had been hurt personally, not politically. and the first lady by some of the false allegations. one more palace allegation. for that the man is being

treated like some kind of villain, and i think he was just being a good lawyer. >> personal reasons but it was right before the election. m mtz. and a second interview which undercuts the idea that it's a personal notion. if being on fmt that the payment was made in the first place. the interesting thing about giuliani, you would think that you would want as a legal front person wh person, sbomeone who is very careful -- >> are we talking about the same guy? >> the president is channelling to the united states through rudy giuliani. >> that's very true.

before we leave this, i also want to talk about something one of you mentioned, about the timing of the payment. giuliani also talked to the "washington post" where he said he thought the president didn't get the full picture, in his words, of what happened until about two weeks, before that statement on air force i that we played a little while ago. >> if that's the case, then the preside president. i don't know if the president was aware of it enough to be known publicly about what was going on? if he didn't have the full sense of everything that was going on because he was choosing to ignore it, then i guess it was plausible to say something that we can't back up, but it won't

carry any legal weight or ram. but mother we're now in the and this is the line that he's going to deliver. doesn't have to match anything that came before, because none of it matches what came before. >> another interesting thing we're not talking about yet, that giuliani put out there is the fact that he. now you have his laufr doing the same thing. that, again, opens himself up to drawing the case and his word about interference in the election. >> we are going to dig in a little bit more on that later. everybody stand by because i want to talk to a legal expert about this, the series of interviews that we've been talking about that rudy giuliani

gave and the question about more legal questions than answers in the wake of those interviews. i want to bring in solomon wisenburg who is a former independent deputy counsel in the clinton era, whitewater and lewinsky investigation. he joins me now from raleigh, north carolina. thanks so much for coming in. just broadly, what do you make of giuliani's legal status here? >> he metaphorically murdered the president and committed suicide with respect to his own reputation. >> that's pretty stark. how so? >> oh, it was an incredibly embarrassing interview. look, when you're representing anybody, much less the president of the united states, you have to know that when you go on television and you make statemen

statements, that's an admission by an agent if president trump ever went into court. >> what makes you think giuliani didn't know that? >> i think he knows it in some way, that's what makes it even mora ste astonishing that he wen there. by the way, it doesn't matter who makes the payment. it doesn't matter whether it comes under campaign finance law. it doesn't matter whether it comes from the campaign, the trump organization or from trump personally. the key is the purpose. if it's the purpose to influence a political campaign, it must be reported. reporting is the key here. not only is it subject to the per-person limitations. that would be michael cohen. trump as the candidate is not subject to those limitations, but irrespective of whether it violates the limitations it has to be reported if it's for the purpose of influencing a campaign. so the idea that rudy giuliani

is going to go on tv and say, this is what was going on and this should not be chased by the new york prosecutors, it's just laughable. for him to say this is a totally garbage investigation, talking about mueller. these are his words. this is a totally garbage investigation and a tainted investigation, and then to turn around and say, i think i have the respect of mueller, the doj and the fbi, is lunacy. absolute lunacy. >> you mentioned the campaign finance laws. there was a tweet sent out by a d.c. lawyer, george conway, who happens to be married to the president's top adviser, kellyanne conway. in it, it puts out the fcc laws and regulations on personal gifts and loans which effectively says what you just said, that if a person,

including a relative, friend or candidate gives or loans the candidate money for the purposes of, the funds are not considered personal funds, and it goes on to say even if the candidate uses the fund for personal funds while campaigning. if you just focus on the substance of this, it does specifically say it's for the purposes of influencing any election or federal office, which obviously is why rudy giuliani was saying this is personal. he's insisting it's not about his election or the campaign. is that going to be something the fcc will buy? >> the fcc is going to look at what actively substantively

happened. i guess my point is he doesn't really gain anything for his client by going out and saying this. first it made it seem like the president was lying on the plane. giuliani has tried to clean that up in a later interview with the "washington post." but why go in and even talk about that when you have to realize that you're committing the president, right, you are making a statement, you are an authorized representative of the president, you're his attorney, so anything you say that turns out not to be accurate or is damaging, you're going to have to explain or the president is going to have to explain potentially somewhere down the line. as one of your guests on the panel said, it's not even like campaign finance law violations are that big of a deal. they're not. >> exactly. well, probably wouldn't be if we weren't talking about a president of the united states' hush money and a porn star. but that's the reality of the situation where we are. thank you so much for joining me with your legal

insights. appreciate it. up next we are going to hear from a trump insider about what it's like to experience a grilling from the special counsel's investigators. stay with us.

welcome back. a rare glimpse inside the special counsel's russia investigation this week from a former trump insider. michael caputo was an adviser for the trump campaign in 2016 and an ally of long-time trump adviser roger stone. he's been called before the senate committees over his ties to russia, and this week he paid a visit to the special counsel's office, an experience he called difficult but fair. >> i think they're very focused on russian collusion. i think they believe that they'll get to something.

they didn't tell me not to talk about this. they asked me not to interfere with the investigation as i exited the room, so i don't want to give many details because i feel it interferes with the investigation. however, they're talking about d.c. leaks, they're talking about russia leaks, all the things they're concerned with. i'm concerned for my friends who are in peril. >> all of this comes as president trump shakes up his legal team and takes a more agressive stance toward the special counsel probe. ty cobb is out, rudy giuliani is in, and he wastes no time talking about a garbage investigation, and he views at the root of all of this jeff sessions and his justice department. >> this is a justice department completely unhinged and out of control. to watch this happen under a man that i love, jeff sessions, i just feel bad.

i know the president is heartbroken over this. it isn't that he's angry, he's heartbroken. he never expected this from skpr jeff. the two of them can redeem themselves, sessions and rosenstein. they should order the investigation over. >> i have some advice from rudy giuliani. i want to talk about that in a minute but let's go back to michael caputo. i don't know about you all, but when i talk to people who go before the special counsel, they are scared of their own shadows. they don't want to talk about it, for the reason that he said, because he said, i was warned that if i say anything about it publicly, it could be construed as interfering in the investigation. michael caputo has no problem, and it was so interesting to hear, what it's like and how much they know about what went on. >> i think in some ways -- i didn't see the entire interview but i saw parts of it. he's on safer ground when he's describing them rather than

describing what he told them, right? because the more he describes in public what he said, the more that can potentially vary from what he actually said to them and that puts him in more legal jeopardy. >> that was the other thing that was interesting about this. we all sort of say, we don't know what we don't know, but now it's even more clear listening to michael caputo a lot of what we talk about isn't even beginning to scratch the surface of what they're discussing behind closed doors. >> right. any time you talk about even the questions that are being asked, it tips the hand of the direction the investigation is going and for anybody who comes thereafter. this is classic michael caputo, in a way. he's never exactly been one who can keep his own counsel after he talks to investigators, period, and he has a way of saying, well, they didn't tell me specifically not to talk about anything, so he says what he feels he can say. i have no idea how much of the

tee himself is at question. >> then there's the broader question of obstruction of justice and what giuliani -- another thing that giuliani said, which is that the president fired comey because comey wouldn't say that trump wasn't the target of the investigation. here's how sarah sanders tried to explain it today. >> james comey was fired because he wouldn't tell others that the president wasn't a target of the russia investigation. rudy giuliani said it. so what rudy giuliani right or was he wrong? >> once again i'm not going to comment on ongoing litigation. >> is that litigation? that's not litigation. >> i mean, to me this is just, more than anything, proof that rudy giuliani and trump team-up is going to be a sloppy and very loud one.

they're not going to be careful about this. the more rudy is out there, the more he will say things about this. if i can go briefly to the other interview, i do think it's important that a trump-sympathetic subject who spoke to the counsel said this is focused and fair for russian collusion. there's a reason he may be saying that on tv, which is the medium to which the president likes to get messages, and i think that may matter. >> and it counters a lot of speculation from the president's allies that they don't have anything on collusion. here's michael caputo saying, this is not the case. the senate and white house are fishing, the president is spear fishing. here is a pro clearly spooked sitting across that table and the gravity of the situation. he wants everybody to know about that. thank you all.

we'll take a quick break. up next, potential progress ahead of that historic summit between the u.s. and north korea. why a u.s. official says the trump administration is confident that the north korean regime will soon release three american detainees. that's next. and while we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget... that your business is our business the united states postal service. priority: you so, my portfolio did pretthat's great.year. but the market was up nearly twice as much. that's a tough pill to swallow. exactly. so i started trading. but with everything out there, how do you know what to buy? well, i think my friend victor has just the thing for you. check this out, td ameritrade makes it easier to find the investments

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it's hard to get all the daily that's why i love fiber choice. it has the fiber found in many fruits and vegetables, all in a tasty, chewable tablet. fiber choice... the smart choice. an official says the trump administration is confident that three americans being held in north korea will be released, though the timing is still unknown. the president tweeted this: as everyone is aware, the administration has long been asking for three hostages to be released from a north korean labor camp but to no avail. stay tuned. three were taken into custody

after president trump became president. let's talk to cnn military and diplomatic retired rear admiral john kirby. jeff zeleny, let me start with you. rudy giuliani, one of the things he said this morning was these three prisoners were going to be released today. does he know something we don't know? what are i hearing from your sources there about the timing of this? >> reporter: dana, that is the great question here. there is a sense they do believe, u.s. officials do believe there will be a release. the ones we have been speaking to all morning long say they're not sure exactly when that will be. but i can tell you, you know, the whole reason this is happening, of course, is because of those broader discussions under way between a summit with the u.s. president and the north korean leader. but there is frustration here at the white house about why rudy giuliani, the president's outside lawyer who does not have a security clearance, is the one talking about this. you get the sense that he wanted to change the subject.

you get the sense that rudy giuliani wanted to show the president has a lot of important work to do. so the allegations about payment of stormy daniels and stuff are not the central focus, but on the sheer fact of when these -- a release is going to happen, officials here at the state department said they simply haven't verified it, they don't know. it is odd and unclear why people outside the government are talking about this much more than those inside the government, dana. >> like the president's personal attorney. thank you so much for that, jeff. admiral kirby, you were at the state department, you were at the pentagon as a spokesperson there. you understand as well as anyone, more than anyone, kind of, the way that north koreans approach these things. do you think, if they do end up releasing these detainees, what do you think it says about kim jong-un's mindset ahead of this historic summit? >> it shows that he's serious about having an actual meeting, dana. this is what we call a cbm, a

confidence-building measure, and it's something no doubt the administration was seeking to have from the north to prove that they were serious about it. just like i'm sure it was a cbm that kim jong-un didn't launch missiles during our exercises with south korea last month, and just like we didn't see any statements from north korea about those exercises. all of those are cbms to sort of build to the summit. i think it's serious that they want to meet. but i think two points are needed to make. one, it's a confidence builder to get to the meeting. it doesn't mean the meeting will be successful. it doesn't mean we should be confident that kim jong-un will denuclearize all of a sudden. it just means they're taking serious steps to get to the summit. and number two, it is highly inappropriate about the news of this release, if in fact it were true, to be coming from the president's personal lauryn stead of a spokesman involved in these negotiations. not only is it just plain wrong, it could be stupid, it could be self-defeating because you're getting ahead of kim in a

decision that just hasn't been made yet. i just can't emphasize enough how foolish that was to come from mr. giuliani. >> admiral kirby and jeff zeleny, thank you so much for your insight. i appreciate it. coming up, a republican senator starts getting flak for his views on tax reform and ends up blaming the intern. the most famous intern from washington is now weighing in. you'll want to hear that, next. 80 percent of all strokes and heart disease? preventable. and 149 dollars is all it takes to get screened and help take control of your health. we're life line screening... and if you're over 50... call this number, to schedule an appointment... for five painless screenings that go beyond regular check-ups. we use ultrasound technology to literally look inside your arteries... for plaque which builds up as you age- and increases your risk for stroke and cardiovascular disease.

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checking our political radar, more evidence that and why the people out in america

are just over congress. a new poll just out from monmouth university shows voters have a negative view of congress and all four congressional leaders. the poll finds only 17% approve of the job congress is doing. an overbwhelming majority 71% disapprove. the polls before the midterm elections show democrats have an eight-point lead over republicans in the so-called generic house ballot if the election were held today. another top epa official is leaving the agency. liz bowman, a communications staffer, becomes the third person to leave this week. this as embattled epa administrator scott pruitt faces nearly a dozen inquiries into his conduct. the probes are reviewing his travel expenses, personal security and other allegations of ethical concerns. now a white house official is voicing concern saying pruitt could be doing a better job

using taxpayer money. >> next week will scott pruitt still be the administrator of the environmental protection agency? >> i certainly believe that he will be. >> i think that we campaigned on a promise to drain the swamp. we have to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars. and i think that we that i that promise seriously to the american people. i think there are certain areas that the administrator would acknowledge were mistakes that he would want to fix. >> he could do a better job. >> yeah. i think he would acknowledge that. >> senator marco rubio is getting mocked by a washington figure from the past. the florida senator made waves with a less than glowing review of the new republican tax law in an interview in "the economist." he wrote afterwards in an op-ed to try to explain his position saying "the economist" didn't print all his comments.

then rubio tweeted, slamming politico for accusing him of walking back his comments. he claimed an intern bostched te story. that prompted a reaction from monica lewinsky who tweeted, blaming the intern is so 1990s. lewinsky is now an anti-bullying advocate. that's so juicy. >> it's not necessary to pick on an intern for being an intern. we've all been interns in d.c. at some point. interns stick together and of course she's the most famous one of them all, so it just figures. >> yeah. senator rubio did say the income tax has nothing to do with pouring back into the american worker. the opposite of that is the message that they want to run on. what is true about saying he doubled down and obtained that, in the op-ed he did maintain

that the corporate tax cut is not the good thing about this bill. >> he also proposed making the corporate tax cut less and putting more of it to work on families when the original debate was going on. >> he did. it seems like marco rubio might also be getting in trouble for something like telling the truth and what he really feels. we'll talk about that later. up next we're going to talk about what michael brought up before. rudy giuliani, is he the trump whisperer?

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rudy giuliani has been an ally of president trump's since well before he ran for office. the former new york city mayor has gone from a campaign surrogate to a private supporter and now a highly visible member of trump's legal team. and those years spent with president trump have given

giuliani the gift that he used today, the gift to speak his language. >> they have a witch hunt against the president of the united states going on. >> this has become a witch hunt like the president said. >> our justice department should be looking at that kind of stiff,en t not the nonsense of collusion with russia. >> this is a justice department completely out of control. russian collusion is a total fake news. >> comey is a liar and a leaker. >> leaker in chief. >> with the exception of the late, great abraham lincoln, i can be more presidential than any president that's ever held this office. >> i believe he's one of the best presidents we've ever had. >> it's just so great. listening to giuliani this morning, of course, you heard it, but the way that the ip team put that together, it's just so rich in how unbelievable rudy giuliani is at speaking trump

speak. he didn't speak like that when he was mayor. >> true. >> he was candid and he was new york but -- >> in some wa many ways, they're the same person, right? remember rudy giuliani would go on these radio shows and he knew how to use the media, manipulate the media. they both had issues with ex-wives, they both were on page 6 all the time. and they both, you know, are bigger than life people. they're not receding into the shadows and it's the perfect -- if donald trump can't literally be his own communications director for the legal issues, then this is the next best thing. >> and there's really -- it's about loyalty for the president, and rudy giuliani has steadfast. he was one of the few people who went out there after the "access hollywood" tape came out, and even though he didn't get a couple jobs he wanted in the trump administration, he has still been incredibly, incredibly supportive. >> the president clearly feels a

kinship with him, and it's obvious. and part of it is he's so comfortable in this language because trumpspeak is an easy dialect. as for the trump whisperer, he's quite capable of whispering quite loud. >> outspoken, septegenerarian. >> i want to do a little flashback of trump and giuliani in 2007. >> where does donald trump stand? >> we won't get into that now, but i do have my opinions. we'll worry about that later. >> times have changed a bit. a lot. >> they both seem to have lost their filter over the years. giuliani has not been in

political office since 2001 when he left. trump obviously was not before, but you see interviews like that one. they both did have a filter but they're gone. >> i'm not sure how much of a filter rudy giuliani had. it was a new york sized filter. thank you all for being with us today, and thank you for joining "inside politics." john king will be back tomorrow. be sure to check out the podcasts on "inside politics." wolf blitzer picks up after the break. house crew. give us the data we need. in one place, anywhere we need it. help us do our jobs better. with domo we can run this place together. well that's that's your job i guess. ♪

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hello, i'm jim sciutto in for wolf blitzer. wherever you are watching from around the world, thanks so much for joining us. it's been a steady whirlwind of admittance, denials and