♪i'm gonna follow the sun transitions™ light under control™ thank you for watching "360" cnn tonight starts now. >> we have two breaking news stories tonight, we are learning michael cohen took outlines of credit giving him access up to $774,000 during the presidential campaign. this is according to "the wall street journal" and the "new york times." he knew about the payments month before he told the american people that he didn't know about

it on air force one. i want to bring in april ryan and political commentator van jones, host of the "van jones show" we know now according to the "new york times" citing three sources new about the payment and knew about it months before after dedenying which means he lied to the american people. >> we can now say if the stories are correct, the president did lie and lie is a strong word in washington. the president on board air force one and talked to reporters and reporters asked him and it's on tape that he knew nothing about it. indeed, he knew about it months ago. this goes to the president's

credibility, the trust factor and it is a piece into this investigation by robert mueller that is following the trail of money. this is not good for this president at all. there's a lot on the line with this and we just have to wait and see how this plays out. the president, if these reports are true, he lied to the plubli and reporters. >> the president's denial which is not even one month ago on air force one is very explicit, let me just play it. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels. >> no. >> -- >> you have to ask michael. >> it cannot be clearer than that. did you know about the $130,000

payment to stormy daniels we are learning that he knew months before he said it. >> when he said it he was either lying or confessing to a kind of arrangement that would be so bizarre. i'm either lying to you or telling you i'm such a sleazy person and i have a big bucket of cash and a lawyer wandering around paying people off because my life is so terrible. >> he is either lying a bald faes liar or he can't keep track of all of the people he is paying off. i don't know if i feel better knowing he is a liar or to know

if he is a sleazy guy. >> did you know about the $13,000 payment, no. and here he is today when asked again, do you have anything more to say on stormy daniels and whether you knew about the payment and if you reimbursed michael cohen about it and he answered this way. >> we're not changing any stories, all i'm telling you is that this country right now is running so smooth and to be bringing occupy that kind of crap and witch hunts all the time. that's all you want to talk about -- excuse me. take a look at what i said. you'll see what i said. >> okay. we did and took a look at what he said and he said anybody

asking questions is a load of k crap and we're not changing any story. tonight it appears to be pretty clear. it's a lie. >> somebody made the point previously that trump is not so much a liar but a bs'er. they are saying what they need to do get them out of the circumstance in the moment. constant stream in the moment thinking with know regard to facts and reality. not a bad way to think of trump and the way he reacts to these types of questions. he's a bs'er. >> some might say you are

dancing around another word there. >> michael, this is stunning. you are reporting that less than a month ago the president on air force one asked about if he knew about the stormy daniels payment and said no explicitly no twice. you said that was false. he did know and knew about it months before? >> right. that's exactly right. hi erin, the sources we have talked to today tell us that in fact, the prosecuesident knew a the payment from his lawyer, michael cohen, to stormy daniels, that he knew that michael cohen made the payment to stephanie clifford. he was asked and sometimes

sometimes we as reporters ask questions and think could we have asked that more directly or the answer was not clear. we have seen that is pretty clear. what our sources tell us is at the time he made that statement, long before that he knew full well the existence of that payment. >> okay. and so now let me ask another question to this point. when you say months before the air force one statement. that statement was -- i'm going off the top of my mind, somewhere around april 5th now you are saying months before. you are not specifically saying when. but you are saying post-election or are you not 100% sure? >> well, so look. i think as with much of the reporting that we've been doing over the last 15 month it is is an iterative process. i want to be clear on not going

further. there's a lot we don't know t. is not clear, you know, we are not clear in terms of the sourcing that we have and exactly when he learned of the payment. we know it was well before the air force incident, you know, but my sense it may have been long before that. i don't want to go beyond what we know. the at time he denied it, he knew before. >> when we say months, he knew a long time before, it could have been before or after the election. you are not trying to weigh in on the about or post-election. just that he knew before he said he didn't. >> right. rudy giuliani addressed some of the question about when, for example, the reimbursement started. we believe it started after the election. it is possible that's when the president found out. i don't want to exclude the possibility he could have known

before that too. >> michael, you have deep reporting and you have excellent people on it. and this is not a single source thing. you have three people close to this telling you this aware of the facts, right? >> yes. i'm fully aware that when you write a story, the definitive, even if we have five or ten sources or 30, i fully am aware of what the president and his team are likely to say because we have seen the history of it. they push back and attack. we standby our sources and we believe this to be the case. >> from here, michael, then -- what is next in terms of where you all are? just a matter of coming up with the exact date? >> right, i think there's a lot more to learn. what was the exact date he found out, how?

who told him? what was the level of detail he knew? you can imagine the range of information. if he knew the vague outlines or was he intimately aware in all of the gory details of how the payment was made, et cetera. that's a reporting target and my guess in newsrooms across the city. >> i want to the get to van's point, from your reporting, is it possible that he knew the general outlines or he knew people similar to stormy daniels were being paid off all the time or does it mean that he specifically knew that it was stormy daniels and her name and the specifics of the case and when we get into what word we are going to use to describe him. that matters a lot. are you reporting that he knew it was stormy daniels and the specifics about the name and person and situation or are you

not sure? >> we are reporting that he learned of this specific payment and that he learned mr. cohen made the payment and was successful in doing so and keeping those specific allegations from ms. daniels from becoming public at the time. >> so involved the name and specifics. >> how much details he knew beyond what i just said, i think it is unclear. >> michael, thank you so much for laying it out and being clear and transparent. van, let me give awe chance to above and beyond. >> he knew it was $130,000 and he knew it was to stormy daniels. that is specific. he was asked specifically about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels and he said no. they are reporting that he explicitly knew those things.

>> i'm baffled that donald trump had an affair with the porn star and tried to pay her off. that's what happened. the reality is that he could say that and we would be done with it. his base is not going anywhere. it is like his base doesn't care he doesn't have ethics. they all know. there is not a single trump person you can find that would say that they don't believe there is something with this affair situation. donald trump is a bs'er because he proven it over and over again. and he puts us through torture of this nonsense. come out and the say you did it and say you tried to pay her off and let's go to next week. >> if it happened before the election, we are done with it.

this happened before the election, the affair and payoff, why is he lying about it? >> you know why he is lying about it because he is the president of the united states and he wants to assume this presidential stance even if it is a new modern presidential stance. donald trump never -- president donald trump or donald trump candidate or civilian never denied that he had a relationship with stormy daniels if sarah huckabee said it was an arbitration. the issue is was she paid off before the election. many of the evangelicals and the people who support donald trump who believe in the bible and talk about thousand shall not commit adultery, thousand shall not lie, or kill. it is amazing how they stand

there and turn a blind eye to the president. a couple of the main reasons is because he stands for, pro-gun. he is against abortion. he's also anti-tax. the pillars of this republican party they are turning a blind eye to all of his other stuff but he is standing up for these issues. that's wrong. the president of the united states is no matter what you want to say, is a moral leader of not just the nation but the world. it is seems like he has fallen down on morality. >> to over simplify this and put it in stark questions. did president trump lie about this and is there an election violation.

we now know he lied to the american people. you can use the word bs or whatever you want to use. he is saying months could refer to two or three or significantly before. they don't know if he knew about it before the election. >> i agree with van about how baffling it is that they don't understand that the easiest way to sort of move past this is to put out a few sentences in clear english of what happened. i mean, does anyone think it is off-brand for donald trump to have a one night stand with someone? >> no. >> no. >> i hate to say it -- >> it is the brand, part of the brand. >> he might have personal reasons. he was married at the time.

his son was just born. that's not a fun conversation he wants to have with melania. we have the cohen statement and what he said. he tried to separate trump from all of this and to go through e ridiculousness with giuliani and trump trying to clean it up today but not really. and anonymous sources in the "times." just give a few sentences about what happened. he can stick to the affair being made up but he felt the allegations were so damaging that he had to enter into the agreement. it is so strange that he is not sticking to a story. >> there is the do you need to admit anything else if you admit

sto storm. >> he took out about 3 quart of million dollars in loans during the 2016 campaign. for what? we'll be right back. near this ? or doing goat yoga at this mountain resort? or treating a destination wedding to the sweet sound of pug bongos? because hotels.com lets me do me. where my dogs at? oh, here they are. hotels.com. you do you and get rewarded. take it away henry. with dell small businessout your technology advisors you get the one-on-one partnership you need to grow your business. the dell vostro 15 laptop. contact a dell advisor today.

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and more breaking news "the wall street journal" reporting that michael cohen took outlines of credit giving him access to about three quarters of a million dollars in cash and did it during the presidential campaign. joipi joining me on the phone rebecca davis. it all happened during the election during the campaign when donald trump is an announced candidate for president. high calico hen ge-- michael co

gets access to how much cash? >> -- our story reporting new facts about mr. cohen personal financial dealings and raises questions which we know considered by federal law enforcement how michael cohen is raising cash in 2015 and 2016 and what he did with the money and whether it violates laws frm. >> so you have three quarters of a million dollars. he has increasing line of credit, et cetera. how was this money used because i believe you are saying the stormy daniels payment was part of the $774,000 and what downabodow you though about the rest?

>> he said he made it right before the election, the question is what happened with the rest of the money? -- mr. giuliani has changed in the past 72 hours but what did he do with that money? those are questions that the media and prosecutors are looking at. >> this is part of the trail. to your knowledge, your bottom line is you don't know more sure if it went to other women or nondisclosure agreements part of it was spent on the porn star, stormy daniels. >> correct. we know mr. cohen had broadly resolved problems for president trump. we don't know where the rest of the money went to basically. >> that's the big question.

the fact that you broken and had this amount of money is significant. we appreciate you to come on and explain the reporting to me. van, you are next to me, your reaction. >> this is just crazy. it's just crazy. >> that's a fair reaction. a lot of people -- >> who the world just goes and hands their lawyer almost a million bucks and says just in case some people accuse me of sleeping with them, hand out the money. i don't think the american people are letting it register. if you had a relative in your life that conducted themselves in this way, a friend that passes out money to solve problems for me. you would call someone.

you would want help for this person. you would not want this person to be the commander in chief. i don't know a single person who has a random lawyer walking around with access to cash to solve problems for them. maybe a mob figure, but i don't know any. this is absurd and insane. how is this happening? i'm sorry. >> and yet it is happening and april it kind of makes rudy giuliani make complete sense to me. everybody said what was that crazy interview. maybe it was him trying to get some stuff out. he offer it had out there maybe because he knew all of this stuff was going to break and he poorly but tried to get to be the guy to break it. >> right. let's say this.

i'm not going to give rudy giuliani the sanity umbrella for that. i'm going to say some of what has transpired is starting to make sense. the question is, and van is succinct with this. it is not normal. and van is right. who has an attorney that does that kind of thing? who has an attorney -- and if they do, that attorney is not ethical. and there is a chance for that attorney to be disbarred. and it looks like cohen can wind up being disbarred. there are some issues here on the table and the bottom line is you have to follow the trail of money. that's the big question. where did all of this money go? we heard about people getting paid off but why during the campaign time? it can be a major fec violation.

not just a slap on the wrist. this is smiomething to chance t course to shut them up so the information would not go out so the american public would not understand who they are voting for for president. this could have changed the course of the 2016 election. paying people off and making it rain. >> in a sense what does it tell us in the point that all have been making. it is explicit payments -- >> not normal. >> and action. you can't call it locker room talk m the reporting here and rebecca story and "the wall street journal." that was right when trump won the new hampshire primary. there's a timing issue. i'm doing the math. in my head, you take $774,000

and divide it by $130,000 and 5.9 women. if it was used to that it would be made to multiple people. >> it is not illegal to take out a home equity line of credit or mortgage. if you are someone who said that one of the lines of credit was taken out to make a payment like this, then, of course, these loans become really interesting. so kudos to the wall street jur journal for breaking this. they have been at the head of this from the beginning. we have two stories, one of michael cohen saying i did this stuff because i knew the kind of work that had to be done. i didn't always have to tell the boss about it and the suggestion

now by "the wall street journal," that he was trying to become liquid to make sure he had a stash of frununds availab to take care of these kinds of situation and on the other hand we have the giuliani/trump line, we were paying him these huge retainers to do this kind of work. maybe if it was after the fact to pay him back. that's one of the mysteries. the other thing in the "new york times" article to go back to the cash, they raise the interesting idea that the money to pay back cohen was coming from -- may have been connected to the trump organization itself. if that's true, then you have the southern district of new york with a sort of, its nose into the trump organization not just michael cohen and that

opens up a whole new world. i remember previously trump said f if mueller was looking into it. >> the president's best defense to say he didn't lie about stormy daniels would be to seize on this wall street journal. because it happened with so many women, i don't remember all of the payments. i didn't lie because how would i remember one from another. i'm making the point to get out of one situation, you have a bigger situation somewhere else. >> that's where the president is overall right now. legal peril here when had pivots from that and ethical dilemma here. that's what happens when you live a sleazy life. an honest question a normal person would ask is how much dirt are you doing? how much dirt are you doing that you need almost a million

dollars to get yourself out? stormy daniels got a little bit of money and opened her mouth. who didn't open their mouth? once you trace down all of this money assuming it went out the door, i'm afraid -- what has this president been doing? >> don't be afraid. >> van has an amazing show tonight talking to activist tracy ellis ross. >> she talked about her show and her mom. this is diana's ross' daughter and tells stories about growing up with diana ross. it is going to be an amazing tweet fest. we have so much crazy news we can't squeeze it all in.

we talk about integrity, but where are we? >> it is true. when you talk about your show, there's a lot of room and appetite for people to hear thing that is are uplifting about other things and that's what you are going to do. that's tonight at 11:00 with van. when we come back with breaking news, more on the headlines of michael cohen getting access to three quarters of a million dollars and president trump knew about the hush money payment to stormy daniels when he denied it on air force one. more? they've been saving folks money for over 75 years. a company you can trust. geico even helped us with homeowners insurance. more sounds great. gotta love more... right, honey?

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our breaking news this hour the report that president trump new about the hush money payment to stormy daniels months before he said he didn't on air force one. that report is from the "new york times." i want to bring in cnn national analyst, and a former fall prosecutor and cnn congressional correspondent. there were a couple of crucial things, did the president lie to the american people, the answer is yes. the "new york times" if it is accurate. he knew about the payment and asked on air force one about it

and said he did not know about it. what are the legal implications of this to you? >> i think what is interesting is the information that is coming out about a money trail. as a prosecutor we would subpoena all kinds of documents. the loan documents, the papers, anything that would have been filled out as cohen went to the bank or went through process of trying to obtain the loan. so we would look at that and study that and see if there's misstatements or bank fraud. and the other thing that is interesting here, erin. we know that rod rosenstein who is other seeing both, he told the president as of now, he is not a target of an investigation. he would know about the new york

investigation as well. so i'm not sure as a prosecutor how that plays into this. >> so let me again so everybody understands. the air force one is on april 5th not even one month ago. this was the president when asked about if he knew about the payment. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. >> why did michael cohen -- >> you have to ask michael cohen. he is my attorney. you'll have to ask michael. >> obviously, that was a false statement. what is the legal implications that could threaten this president putting aside whether the american voter cares or not. >> lying to the public or to the

press is usually not a crime. so what we saw the president do, obviously, it is sad that it no long longer surprises us that he is lying. unfortunately, that is not a crime. so the issues legally are first of all, this is going to hurt his credibility in the stormy daniels litigation and draw him back in. originally, the president's position was i didn't know anything about anything, i don't need to be deposed you don't need discovery from me because i don't know anything. the it is going to be harder for him to get away from a deposition in that case and that is obvious. and obviously, michael cohen is under investigation relating to the payments. you saw the segment with the wall street journal, there's a

lot of investigation there. he may end up being a witness there and have his own exposure. there's a good reason why the president's lawyers don't want him being questioned. he is somebody who doesn't always tell the truth and can be easily caught in a false statement. >> at the reality, he has not told the truth to at least some or all of his lawyers. not everybody and not all of the time. >> that's right. some what incomprehensible. sort of a clarification to the clarification. now that we know the president lied, we just need to know the truth was that he did know about the stormy daniels case. you know, we were told at the begin of the week that donald trump's new legal team was going to take the gloves off and go

after mueller and the investigation and at the end of the week it is like the wheels are off, not the gloves. you don't know what the theory is other than make us all tired and confused. and that eventually, they are hoping that everybody runs out of steam. the problem for them is that these cases are court. there are indictments and plea deals. this is not stopping no matter how much drama they create on the outside. >> what is the reaction to this? you have capitol hill and republica republicans he hsitant to go against him. this is a political question to the american people. does this change anything on capitol hill? >> we are talking about the legal file but there is a political fallout. a number of trump supporters

won't care about this. a significant portion of trump supporters -- the nra convention he can excite his base like nobody else despite these problems. talks to people in washington in tough races, the one thing they don't want to talk about is the constant controversies coming out of the white house. difficult chances of keeping the house and the senate could be at risk. they want to focus on the economy and tax cuts something they can say in unison. when the president has significant credibility issues it makes their job harder. the cumulative effect of everything happening as an impact on the party and the race in congress in november. if his credibility diminishes

and poll numbers go down, they are in trouble and then that here in washington. >> all of you stay with me as we continue covering these breaking news stories. we'll be right back with "cnn tonight" s! "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance..." through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald's helps more people go to college. it's part of our commitment to being america's best first job.

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. more breaking news on a very busy friday evening m rudy ju

giuliani saying he doesn't know. i want to bring the a political analyst and joins us on the phone. it is amazing, josh, he comes out and gets criticized and now you have rudy giuliani change the story again. what he is saying is having conversations with the president and we have clarifying statements what we don't know according to rudy giuliani is when he became aware of it being routed to stormy daniels or partially paying michael cohen to what he paid to stormy daniels and what my come cohen was doing for him. rudy giuliani said they had an arrangement. writing a $35,000 check everien

month and handling issues that happened in 2016 and before after the president joined the white house. the arrangement was built on trust according to rudy giuliani and when michael cohen handled difficult or unseemly parts of his life back in new york. and continuing to payoff the debt michael cohen did in the past. >> why did giuliani shift his story so much about what president trump knew and what he knew it. you had your time line and the statement today on doing and now telling you something different. >> well, on wednesday night the interview was startling. the only person who knew what he was going to say on air was president trump. in that conversation he

delineated a lot of private conversation that could jeopardize attorney/client privilege. he said he would not tell him you are under investigation. and rudy giuliani said a number of things and closer to the truth than we heard before and they were pretty outside of the box from what we have known. and what rudy told us tonight, to look at this transaction and the president doesn't have legal liability and that he basically wanted to get the facts out and say these $35,000 a month payments, here is what they were for is what's happening. we don't know all ott facts we just know what he is telling us. they are going to further delve

into this and figure out what is true and not. >> thank you very much. i want to bring on many are breaking news here. >> covering devin nunez after the demands from the justice department to get key documents a short memo that describes why the russia investigation started at the fbi after he was given access by the justice department to that document he went to the justice department headquarters and refused to read the documents. in fact, the republican from south carolina who came with him to the facility to read the documents read them instead and staff members did instead and a lot of criticism from people who said perhaps nunez is not searching to learn about all of the nuances of the complex

investigation as he tries to doubt why it is going on in the first place. erin, moments he was on fox news and asked about our story. he did not refute the story. he did not refute the story. in fact, he dodged questions about it. he said he did not want to talk about the process and said, quote, these are process games. >> thank you so much for that, manu. when we come back a federal judge, saying he believes bob mueller, the special counsel, is using paul manafort's bank fraud case to just get president trump. that's a pretty incredible thing to say. the president's reaction, next. our thinnest longest lasting blades on the market. precision machinery and high-quality materials from around the world. nobody else even comes close.

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federal judge overseeing bob mueller's case against paul manafort doing something today. publicly questioning if bob mueller's special counsel is just out to get president trump. pretty stunning. how problematic is this for the bob mueller investigation? this judge went on and on saying you're trying to bring down the president. that's what this is about.

this is reagan appointed judge. this is not some flaming democrat, okay. this is federal judge saying this. how significant is it? >> anytime you're a special prosecutor in court and the judge in his black robe sitting six feet above you looks down and balls from monday night football and says come on, man, that's not a good day for the prosecutors. >> renaldo, how unusual was this for a judge to do this and go on at such length accusing the prosecutors of basically doing all this to get at the president? >> this is very, very unusual. i wouldn't be surprised if they're in the back sort of thinking maybe a motion to recuse. i guarantee you they're talking about that right now.

>> renado? >> what i would say it's unusual. apparently not from this judge from what i hear. he's really created an appearance he's unfair and politically biased and really a problem in a high profile case like this. >> julia, what does it mean? >> i don't think we know yet. there's been no ruling and maybe he wants to challenge mueller's prosecution team. i think it's unique. i think we have to reserve judgment until there's an actual ruling. mueller's team has to come back with the investigation. >> they have to come out with unredacted full remit that the judge had. is he really going out of turn or doing what he should do? thanks so much to all of you. thanks to all of you for watching us. don lemon will be back on the chair on monday. and coming up next the excellent van jones show.

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good evening and welcome. i'm van jones. it's "the van jones show" show. we have another amazing show tonight. a couple of highlights. we have the star of the show "blackish." she's a fierce advocate for