no such thing as capital punishment in grammar. even if the president's grade is. >> sad. >> jeanne moos cnn new york. >> see you back here tomorrow night. ac 360 with anderson starts now. >> john berman here in for anderson. the story putting a date on when the president and his time will decide whether or not president trump will voluntarily testify in the mueller probe. may 17 is the date they reportedly wanted aside. may 17 is the one year anniversary of robert mueller being appointed special counsel. the journal details mock kwchl a -- q and a sessions. the results interesting. the reporter who broke the story will join us shortly.

we report with keeping them honest the ever changing story coming from the president and his new legal team. o one statement that is just not true. >> what happens if robert mueller subpoenas the president, will you comply? >> we don't have to. he is the president of the united states. >> keeping them honest, it is not true that the president does not have to comply with the subpoena simply because he is president of the united states. the supreme court has been clear, there was a subpoena ordering richard nixon to turn over tapes and the supreme court overrode the president's argument in keeping them private. and bill clinton, the supreme court ruled the president could not invoke presidential

immunity. ken starr did get a subpoena for clinton to testify. it is true the president could fight any subpoena argue executive privilege, but no guarantee that fight would be successful and historical evidence to the contrary. giuiliani showed up to the interview already rocking the boat. that was after the president said on air force one he didn't know about the payment and the new interview giuiliani dropped another doozy, the world's least surprising bombshell. >> and you said he, this is a regular arrangement with michael cohen, did michael cohen make other payments. >> i have no knowledge of that. he made payments for the president or conducted business for the president which means he had legal fees, moneys laid out

and expenditures. >> sarah sanders was out there in the white house. >> are there other women out there? >> i would refer you to rudy giuliani to respond to any questions. >> punt to giuiliani, sha should and then there was this. >> are you confident the president will not take the fifth in this case? i >> oh, how can i be confident of that? when i am facing a situation with the president and any other lawyers are, he will be a fool to testify. >> sanders was also asked about this at the white house. >> i want to know why the president would go that route if

he has said there is no collusion. >> i couldn't address that. >> the president is also not an attorney but he has addressed what he thinks about people who do take the fifth. >> have you seen what is going on? fifth amendment, fifth amendment, the mob takes the fifth. if you are innocent why are you taking the fifth amendment? when you have your staff taking the fifth so they are not prosecuted i think it is disgraceful. >> the president and the white house already face serious questions or credibility. the stories always changing. and after giuiliani said the president did reimburse cohen for the hush money.

the president said giuiliani is on some sort of learning curve. >> rudy knows it is the witch hunt. he will get his facts straight. >> he is new, he is learning. he will get his facts straight. >> right now, i am at the point where i am learning and i can't prove that, i can just say it is rumor. my issue is getting up to speed on the facts here, and i am halfway there. it could have been recently or a while back. maybe in a little bit of dispute. >> dispute? i can prove it is rumor? the facts we are working on? >> i am pretty sure that is not how the law works or facts for that matter? nice thing about facts is they are what they are. they don't need to be worked on or written or rewritten.

it is easy for everyone to be on the same page if the page is a list of facts. this white house, the president, and this lawyer seem like they are not on the right page. the page got ripped out and torn to shreds. maybe we should cut them some slack. after all, it is still judy giuiliani's first day, except it is not. and when the legal team hopes to make that decision. peter nicholas of the wall street joins me now. giuiliani -- what did he tell you about what is factoring in that decision. >> may 17 is the one year anniversary of the appointment of bob mueller and there is skepticism. he is concerned that it could be

leading the president into a perjury trap. worried about specific questions that mueller might ask. and worried about how the president might answer these questions. one thing that we learned in our reporting is there is a concern that trump is too loquacious, and goes off on tangents. so great skepticism. giuiliani told you every day they swing a little different. did he explain why. >> if the president is saying that he is innocent, no obstruction of judgment.

and they understand that or weighing that and bouncing that. >> rudy giuliani made sure that prefers that the president does not testify. >> he said that he was pretty blunt about it, he said he never wanted his clients to testify and as u.s. attorney, he felt that witnesses who did testify were walking into some peril and he could exploit that and take advantage of that as a prosecutor. so he comes at this from a skeptical place where i think well aware of the pitfalls this presents. >> something interesting in your article. you reported on a practice session that president trump's

attorney put him through. >> so they ran some sample questions by president trump in the white house residents to see how he would do. and they made very little headway. they were there for four hours but repeatedly interrupted. so national security advisers would come into the room and want to talk to the president about north korea or iran. the lawyers had to leave the room and then they would come back and try to resume the q and a and they found that the president was as i mentioned long-winded in his answers and weren't able to cover very much ground. so not a successful experiment. >> great reporting. thank you for being with us. >> joining us now jim acosta at the white house. and gloria borger. >> reporter: we've asked, they have not responded yet and earlier today, sarah sanders,

she was sort of reading from different talking points today. i think gone are the days they are going to speculate a lot on these legal troubles she was deferring us over and over again to the legal team. the president's legal team is making a final push to make the determination one way or another. the source i spoke with said the odds are around 50/50 and. >> one source who spoke to my colleague and gym's colleague, saying they are looking for this may 17 deadline. this source said it is all fluid. and my sources are telling me the reason this is fluid is because this legal team right now is being run by two people. the president of the united states and rudy giuliani who is

not read in on the legal case. emmett flood is coming in and has to deal with the security clearance in order to do that yet. and most of the attorneys, believe the president should not testify. and i think they would agree with rudy giuliani on that and have this sense watching this, watching it play out over the weekend and last week is that rudy giuliani and the president are freelancing here. and every time they see it they want to pull their hair out or at least pull rudy giuliani into a room with all of them and get on the same page. they like his pr message which is discredit mueller and the team and the investigation. but the specifics about what the

president is going to do, not so much. >> what are you seeing in terms of tension. there has only been tension inside whatever legal team the president has had. >> there are tensions. one person referring to this as an s-show. that is sign of tension. somebody else used the term. wtf, i will use the abbreviated portion of that there. there is also frustration inside the white house press office. they feel like more and more they should keep themselves walled off. you say what happened with sarah sanders last week, her own words came back to haunt her. and that is why you saw her earlier today over and over again robotically saying i want to refer you back to the president's legal team. and it makes you wonder whether at some point they are going to

have to put somebody else in the briefing room alongside sarah sanders to answer questions. that is going to be a broken record to hear the white house spoeksz person to say that overaover and over again. we can see this stretch on for months this goes onto the supreme court. >> i think the legal team would like it find a spokesperson so sarah sanders doesn't have to stand up there and do that. it is hard to get a spokesperson because that person knows they are going to have to hire a lawyer themselves if they were to become a spokesperson at this point. it is a difficult job which nobody is actually running to fill. >> is rudy giuliani actually doing anything than being a spokesperson? >> no. >> i am having a hard time following his law efforts. >> we are not in their meetings yet because they probably

haven't had many meeting yet. when they do get together we will learn a little about that. what we do know is that he and the president are on the same page. the question that i'm hearing is how long will rudy giuliani last? until the president decides he is getting too much publicity. maybe a little too out front on this one and maybe he ought to cool it. >> he is the public face for this for sure. thank you very much. joining me now is jeffrey toobin and david gergen. rudy giuliani is still getting up to speed on the facts. and at the same time he is saying things about michael cohen. is any of this helpful to the president? >> no. and look, i think we can acknowledge that rudy giuliani

is making a fool of himself, he doesn't know what he is talking about. he is talking about the hostages in north korea. and things he should be talking about. and as you point out, he doesn't know the facts. but, i do think we are heading for a resolution which will include the departure of rudy giuliani. he will say that is what he came here to do and now i am leaving. and that will be by popular demand especially by the president of the united states. >> elizabeth, obviously the president does have other lawyers besides rudy giuliani, but he is the face of it. is that a functional relationship having the guy who may not be up to speed on the law out there talking the most about the law? >> look, it is a good idea when you have a complex legal situation like this to have someone who is the legal face of

your legal team and then beyond that public face, you have a team of minions going about doing ordinary lawyerly things. time will tell whether giuiliani settles into this public face role. he shot a little fast out of the canon in the beginning. otherwise he has shown he has a lot of sophistication and experience with the media. and he also has obviously experience as a federal prosecutor so that could be useful too especially if the subpoena that we are speculating may come out of the southern district of new york rather than special counsel mueller's office. >> has he been helpful? >> you know, i think there is pluses and minuses. that's really sort of outside of my wheel house. i think as far as public spokespeople go, he is aggressive, but that may be

attentional. >> david gergen, tbecause of hi loquaciousness, which gets to an issue here. do you think, are there signs that they are taking this quite se seriously? >> two questions in four hours? how many questions did we have from mueller that he sent to the white house? 48? it could be a couple of weeks they would do that. and i think in the end of the day, the president is going to have to answer questions under oath. how they get there, i do not know. whether it is going to be voluntarily or a subpoena which is challenged by the white house ask then they lose in the supreme court. ultimately he is going to have to speak. in the meantime i think rudy

giuliani has made this a circus. he has many great qualities. he was an excellent mayor of new york. he is a great combat tant in so ways. and he is freelancing which is the worst thing you can do in a seriously complicated case. this is a game against a group of people led by mueller who are smart and serious and they do not create circuses. >> there is a point to be made here that the loquaciousness is actually helpful to the president. not hurtful because this is going to have a time limit. there is no question this interview will be three hours, four hours, five hours. it will be some time limit. and if the president is going to ramble for the whole time, that

is to his advantage and there will not be a judge there if this is a grand jury type proceeding. so there is method to the madness if the president just wants to say as he is want to, there was no collusion, no obstruction of justice and he says it 17 different ways and doesn't address the actual questions in front of him. it is working to his advantage. >> it is a filibuster. and it is hard to tell the president of the united states to be quiet. david, go ahead. >> i just, jeffrey has taught about this a lot and knows more about this than i do. but i can't imagine that mueller is going to sit there and let him filibuster for four hours and have him walk away. mueller will have a good case if he answers three questions over the course of three or four hours. this is evasive. >> go nowhere. you will be back after we take a

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for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. safe driving! for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. so, you guys have recently starteyes. - yes. a little less than a month. coming up on two months now, yeah... cool. so, i want to show you guys these three chevy suv's. the first one is called the trax. beautiful! do you think it would be good for moving in together? moving in together?! ahhh! - ahhh! okay, well, this is the chevy equinox... wow. nice. perfect for when you two have your first kid. give me some time... okay, this is the traverse. for when you have your five kids, two dogs and one cat. (laughter) whoa! five? ahhh... well, no matter what stage of life you're in chevy has an suv for you. you have it all planned out, thanks. rudy giulia as we heard before the break the president's lawyers in the

russia investigation they are trying to decide if he should testify at the one year anniversary. in a four-hour practice session, the lawyers were only able to get through two questions. professor, i want to start with you, rudy giuliani is saying at thes basically settled law that the president does not have to comply with the subpoena. now it is an open legal question but certainly not settled law, is it? >> no i don't think it is a settled law. it is a good argument to be made. probably has plenty of leverage to defy that subpoena and ultimately, i suspect either a subpoena will not be issued or if it is, it will simply be used as leverage to work something out with the president to sit down and define the parameters of the interview. and what those will be,

ultimately, who knows. but think about it, you can't enforce the subpoena against the sitting president of the united states. no court in the country that will hold the president in contempt. i think the same argument would hold true with the subpoena. >> but in 1997, the supreme court said that bill clinton had to give a civil deposition in a civil case. the paula jones case, so civil cases are lower in priority always than grand jury subpoenas. i think this is a pretty easy legal issue that he will be required to testify if the case winds up going to court. >> this is not a civil case. this is a criminal grand jury. >> in a normal universe, the issue here would actually be political. no politician would want to sit

and deal with the potential embarrassment of having the supreme court weigh in. these are different times here. >> that is true. i was there in 1974 working in the white house when the supreme court ruled. and as i recall, it was unanimous, that president nixon had to answer to a subpoena to turn over documents. i don't understand why you can have a subpoena that is enforceable for the president to hand over documents and why they are so different. they are close together in their nature and i would be interested in the response from jeffrey. >> elizabeth, quickly. >> the rational, the subpoena --

a subpoena does require. a lot of hours with any client who going to be appear before a grand jury to give testimony. so the idea is that you really have to if you are a court sort of balance the need for the information against the burden on the presidency, and subpoena ad testify would take away the president for his duties. so there would have to be some showing that there is some need to get information from the president and there is no other way to get that information. >> jeffrey? >> well, yes, it is true there would have to be some showing but if the supreme court said the president has to testify in a civil case, which is not nearly as important as a grand jury proceeding as they did in the paula jones case, why

wouldn't they say he had to testify in a grand jury proceeding, it is an easy legal issue. >> jeff, let me move on to something else, rudy giuliani just spoke to politico and he spoke about the idea that he should stop speaking on tv. if i am not up to it, i don't know who is, he told politico. i know the justice department just about better than anyone. does that make sense to you? you said the likely outcome is that they work out a deal that rudy giuliani walks off, or rides off into the sunset. do you have reporting on that? >> absolutely. this is an embarrassment and you know, to have the president, his client saying well, you know, this is sort of part of the rudy giuliani continuing education program. i mean it is embarrassing and ridiculous. and donald trump knows when people are doing well on television and when they are

not. and giuiliani isn't. >> there is a simple solution. and that is simply that he takes the fifth. it will be a bad day. people will play those tapes that you played earlier. and it will be embarrassing, but donald trump has been in 40% of the polls since he was elected. and that ends the problem. >> on that political point, can he afford politically to take the fifth? >> it is good legal advice, terrible legal advice. >> professor? >> there will be no invocation of the fifth amendment. you have to realize there has to be a crime that is investigated. and we don't know what crime mueller would be investigating the president for. >> obstruction of justice.

>> talked about obstruction many times and there is a reason why this is not obstruction of justice. no pending proceeding when he did fire james comey. the statutes require a pending proceeding. and it is that simple because the president has plenary authority to fire the fbi. >> thank you. first lady melania trump steps into the spotlight to help america's children. stay tuned. coppertone sport.

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this afternoon almost 16 months into the trump presidency, melania trump. >> my hope is together, we can be best at helping children and families find effective ways to educate themselves suspects support each other. i am asking you all to join me

in providing support and guidance to our children so we can make a real difference. educate our children on variety of topics will provide the blue print for the next generation. let's encourage children to dream big, think big and do all they can to be best in everything they do. >> the president joined the first lady on stage after her speech. it comes a day after the "washington post" article. separate schedule, different priorities. joining me now is mary jordan one of the reporters sharing the by line on this. >> mary, let me start with you. you report the president and the first lady lead separate lives. >> it is striking that there is a de facto wall between the west

wing and the east wing where she has her office. we talked to all kinds of people and they say that normally there is a more give and take. they have a very separate lives. and why does it matter? i think because right now the headlines are dominated by two women that said they had an affair with him. her support is going to matter. and that is why people are looking at how the trumps are getting along. >> michael, a new poll out today shows that melania poll numbers are on the rise. they mentioned he particularly fixates on melania's numbers. >> well, the president has a record in his past of actually being jealous of his wife when she gets more attention.

this was the case when he was married to ivana trump and when he was married to marla maples. he don't like to lose to anyone including his wife and here we have a case where one person in the couple is the one where wives turn to their husbands and say if you do anything like that i will kill you. and the other person is regarded as dignified and kind and quite decent. >> regarding the first lady's initiative today, you write they sh been advised by people in the white house to champion another cause, any other cause and yet she still persisted with this one. >> clearly she has an independent streak and it is noticeable as we see more of her. she was silent for the entire first year.

we recently have seen her more in the last few weeks than we have in the entire first year and when she is raising her profile, she is almost always doing it by being the anti trump. she is the least like all the trumps of the trumps. he is a big extrovert. she likes small crowds. she is talking about kindness. and not being mean online. and of course he is famous for his taunts and insults via twitter. it is a very interesting first couple and going to be more interesting because she has promised that we are going to see more of melania trump in the coming months. >> do you think this is a way for melania to send a message to the audience of one? the president was sitting in the front row for the speech? >> so many people have used their public appearances to

address that audience of one, namely the president. and i am sure the first lady was doing that in part. we shouldn't doubt that she has a sincere interest in the issues she raised. in particular she has a young son who has been thrust on the public stage and he has to cope with being challenged as a young person so she must have empathy for kids and she sure is sending a message to the president that she is opposed to the kind of trolling and bullying and harassing that he does online. when you are the president and you are engaged online in a debate with someone, you are always the bully and not the victim. you have the power. he is the most powerful person on earth. >> thanks for being with us. mary, thanks for your reporting. just ahead it sounds as if it is

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nuclear deal. damaging personal information about two key obama administration officials who were instrumental in fashioning the deal in the first place. saying trump administration officials were behind accusations against the officials published mostly in the ring wing press. one of those who works for deputy official to president obama and he joins me now. so collin, can you walk us through exactly what happened. from what i understand you were a target of this operation through some kind of a company trying to get at you through your wife? >> let's back up a bit. about a week ago i was contacted from reporters of the guardian who said they come across

information suggestsing that trump aides had hired an israeli intel firm. and i responded no. i have never heard about this before. and then a couple of days later, the guardian story came out and when my wife read that story and the story alleges that this firm was hired last may so we are talking may of 2017. it triggered a creepy memory that my wife had that she had been approached by supposedly a woman, a persona from a company called reuben capital partners which claimed to be a private equity firm. and my wife who is mostly a stay at home mom was volunteering at my daughter's elementary school and the e-mail pitch was your school is great. we would love to talk to you about making investments in your

school and this sounded implausible and weird and my wife reached out to friends in the finance world and education world and nobody seemed to think this was on the level. my wife went back to the persona and tried to talk to somebody else on the school or somebody else on the committee. and they kept insisting they wanted to talk only own to my wife and we discontinued that conversation. it was the same time frame this happened. >> the black cube has denied involvement and no connection with the white house has been made but, and this is a big but, you say again, the timing of comments made by trump officials tells you something. >> yeah. i mean, first thing, you're watching -- the folks watching

the black cube denial is not really a denial. what got my spider sense tingling is that last spring a number of trump aides started a smear campaign to blame what they thought was this deep state conspiracy. and coincidently it happened around the same time as the president's trip to saudi arabia and israel. >> how does it feel to be in the center of this all. >> it feels creepy. when you are a government official, you expect, when you are a former government official it is weirder. especially creepy if it is a private firm and even doubly so

if they are coming at you through your family. let's keep in mind for your viewers, they came at me through my wife doing volunteer work at my six-year-old's daughter preponderance elementary school. that is pretty scummy and it may happen in the business world but it doesn't happen in my world. i have no idea, i have no evidence this has any relationship to the trump white house, the guardian alleged that is the case. >> do you suspect they were involved? >> i don't know. but i hope people ask them the question because maybe it was just a coincidence that the exact same two people which seemed to be the obsession of a handful of senior aides to the president at the very same time this firm was hired to dig up dirt on those two people, maybe it is just a coincidence, but

it's suspicious enough that i think people need to be asking questions. >> thank you for being with us. >> sure. >> some breaking news tonight, new york govern andrew kcuomo. hit and choked them both. both sought medical attention because of the alleged abuse. general snyderman says he has engaged in role playing. he also casted himself as a prominent opponent to president trump. and again, new york governor calling on snyderman to resign.

the latest on the volcanic eruption hawaii when 360 continues. one second. barely enough time for this man to take a bite of turkey. but for cyber criminals it's plenty of time to launch thousands of attacks. luckily security analysts and watson are on his side. spotting threats faster and protecting his data with the most securely encrypted main frame in the world. it's a smart way to eat lunch in peace.

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and effectively work together is pretty special. they bring their knowledge, their tools and equipment and the proficiency to get the job done. and the whole time i have been in the fire service, pg&e's been there, too. whatever we need whenever we need it. i do count on pg&e to keep our firefighters safe. that's why we ask for their help. on hawaii's big island, the danger is far from over from an erupting volcano. 35 structures including 26 homes destroyed. and authorities are pleaing with people to please stay away from the danger zone. more now from cnn's stephanie elon. >> reporter: rivers of smoldering lava threatening hawaii's big island. the red hot magma spewing up

through fissures that emerged since the eruption of the kilauea volcano has ravaged roads and destroyed dozens of structures. watch this time lapse show the all-consuming flow of the lava as it slowly creeps across a road engulfing a parked car, leaving a smoky black trail in its wake. more lava spilling through neighborhoods, turning lush green island vegetation to walls of blackened rock. at least 1,700 people in leilani estates and lanapuni gardens have had to evacuate. tell me what it was like when you first saw lava coming out right by your house. >> it was bionic, really orange. the highest splatter i saw, personally, was about 60 feet tall. which is pretty big. >> reporter: add to that potentially deadly volcanic gases. the eruptions have released high levels of sulfur dioxide into the air.

and then there are the big island earthquakes. more than 1,300 in the last week, alone. from a helicopter, we can see where all of this began and the destruction is massive. to the south, the puaoo vent of kilauea collapsed. >> all collapsed into one big hole. >> reporter: some residents in leilani estates have been allowed to return temporarily to check on their homes, but the threat and the uncertainty remain. >> just watching everybody come out of there with all their things and, it's sad, it's just so sad. >> stephanie joins us now from the big island. see the scene behind her. stephanie, you've actually been close to this toxic sulfur d dioxide gas coming out of the

volcano. what's that like? >> reporter: john, there's nothing that prefair pares you it. it takes your breath away. also the thundering, pounding sound of the lava erupting from the earth, along with that gas, you feel it in your chest. and as you heard, the man that we interviewed in the piece say, steve gebbie say, we it's coming out, the orange is so intense, it almost looks fake. nothing prepares your eyes for what you're seeing. and to know how hot that's burning and the danger that it poses for the people living in these communities, john. >> pictures are simply stunning. stephanie, please stay safe. thanks so much for being with us. up next, our latest on the breaking news from the white house, the "wall street journal" reporting the president's lawyers hope to decide within days if he should testify in the mueller investigation. according to the "wall street journal" a q&a practice session did not go as planned. the details when we continue

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