i'll ask tom donvan what trump i'll ask former national security advisor tom donilon whether president trump is bumbling or brilliant.

and then years ago, gps first wentz on the air. my big guest in that first episode was tony blair, the former prime minister joins me again, to talk about the forces that seem to be shaping our world. >> populism, protectionism, religious extremism. what would he do if he were confronting these forces? >> i really fear the polarization which is the bane of democracy. >> finally, the great pacific garbage patch. scientists say it is much bigger than we originally thought. i'll bring you a novel idea to clean up this terrible oceanic mess. but first here's my take, donald trump's recurring criticism of his predecessor is that he just didn't know how to make a deal. obama is not a natural deal maker, he tweeted in 2016. obama will attack iran because of his inability to negotiate

properly, he predicted incorrectly back in 2013. we need leaders who can negotiate great deals for americans, trump tweeted in 2015. the implication was obvious. he was the ultimate deal maker. well, it is almost 500 days into the trump administration. where are the deals? where is the renegotiated nafta, the bilateral trade agreements that were going to replace the transpacific partnership? the new and improved iran nuclear pact, the world trade deal, the world is laughing at us, as he would say. by now it's obvious that trump is actually a bad negotiator, an impulsive man who shoots first and asks questions later. consider how the white house has managed the north korea summit. first the meeting was announced with great fanfare, with trump lavishing praise on kim jong-un.

this was to be a head of state summit, though there was little preparation and no determination that the two sides were actually close enough to have a serious negotiation at that level. trump got excited enough to start hyping the prospects for a break through agreement despite little if any movement in the north korean position. next trump's advisors embarked on a strange series of comments that seemed designed to threaten and scare the north koreans. was this the plan? did the administration regret it's early overtures or was it all just incompetence. trump has been even more ham handed in dealing with chandler. humiliatingly, trump had to walk back his comments in a phone call to xi jinping. the current trade talks with china are a case study in bad negotiations. the u.s. government does not seem to know what it wants. some days it appears that

washington is fixated on the size of the trade deficit. other days it focuses on technology transfer and the theft of intellectual property. the white house began its attacks by choosing to impose tariffs on steel which mostly affected america's allies ensuring that it had no partners in it's attempt to negotiate with the chinese. american negotiators leaked furiously to the press to squabble over their positions. trump himself seems to switch gears repeatedly, after his administration announced that it would punish zte, a chinese tech company that committed serious trade violations, trump suddenly changed his mind citing the concern on the impact on chinese jobs. imagine the outcry if obama had walked back his negotiations with chinese in order to help

their economy? trump continues to tweet triumphantly about his great success. it makes one realize the president's true talent, he has the confidence, bravado and skill to market a failure as a success. he can make a mediocre building slap some gold paint on it and then convince you it is a superluxury condominium. call it the art of the spin. for more go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this week. let's get started. the white house juggernaut was steaming toward a june 12 summit with north korea until suddenly it wasn't. president trump was said to have personally dictated the letter to kim jong-un, saying in part, sadly, based on the tremendous anger and open hostility

displayed in your most recent statement, i feel it is important to cancel this long planned meeting. yesterday morning before getting on his helicopter, he addressed the press corps. >> we're talking to them now, it was a very nice statement they put out. we'll see what happens. >> he went on to say that the meeting could still happen as planned in t2 1/2 weeks. what is going on? joining me now is the president's national security advisor tom donilon. how do you describe this on again off again statement? >> there were several state craft errors that were done. one after a briefing from south korean officials with no understanding of might be possible in these negotiations. there's a state craft error there too.

you would never plan -- every president who comes in the white house are biassed. you have to have some understanding of what's possible, what's not possible. i think the second mistake has been that there was very little message discipline. so after the great fanfare with with the very important summit was announced, we had talk of a little bitta -- a little bitta model. -libya model. it was also not received well. and the third state craft error i think was not connecting the dots, pulling out of the iran deal made this much more complicated, it made it more complicated because you would have to have more assurances for the north koreans.

we really weren't communicating with our allies effectively, including up until when the president made his announcement, so there was some core state craft errors here, and if you look at the successful negotiations, the opening to china, there really are lessons to be learned and i don't think the president has steeped himself in a way that he could to gear up for success. >> what are the lessons, in one of those cases as you look at iran is that you're really trying to build pressure from all sides so you've got to keep your allies involved. in this case the south koreans who have been so crucial seemed to have been hung out to dry. and that's in contrast with iran, where you've got to keep the russians and the chinese on board. >> you've got to keep the maximum pressure. i overall the iranian pressure campaign for almost five years, it was essential to have multilateral cooperation and effective sanctions? why is that? because the united states doesn't have any real economic

relationship with iran and north korea. so to have any effective sanctions is you're going to have these other countries involved and you'll have to them in involved in terms of excaughting the sanctions. it's absolutely essential to keep your allies and partners involved, and a core state craft session. and i would say, as an aside here, there's been real damage i think to the relationship with the south koreans that was unnecessary. >> it seems to me to go back to the first point you made, that the core issue in any of these negotiations, if you get lost in the circus of the sort of dating, break up and perhaps getting back together. the core issue is, is there an overlap of interest? what is the potential agreement? do you still feel like you understand that? because as you said, what bolton

is describing, is the complete and total denuclearization of north korea in advance seems very far from where the north koreans have been historically. >> in opening up negotiations like this and agreeing to a summit. you need to have a keen sense of history, a keen sense of the goal of the negotiations, a keen sense of statements they have made in the past including, by the way, as far as back as 1992 with respect to denuclearization and not keeping their word here. but i agree with you, you have to find where the common ground might be. it's interesting, fareed. if i were going to make a book recommendation for this weekend for president trump, i would recommend he read margaret mcmillan's book "nixon and mao."

it's a story about china including something you just talked about. which is the president of the united states at that point, richard nixon sitting down with a legal pad, with his advisors and saying what do we want? what do they want? what are the areas of agreement? that kind of analysis is particularly point. as was the case with the chinese, a party that we really don't understand that well. >> do you feel as though when you look at those negotiations, part of it was people like nixon and kissinger spent a lot of time trying to understand the history, the culture, where were the chinese coming from? i know that some of the negotiators on the iran deal tried to understand, put yourself in their shoes and try to understand where they are. is that important? >> absolutely essential. and if you look at the cases we have been talking about, this is certainly what president carter did, in coming to the successful camp david accord negotiations. which are laid out beautifully in lawrence wright's book, "13

days in september." he spent months studying the personalities and the history and the language and the meaning of phrases, absolutely essential. like i have said before, we have had so little contact with the north koreans and know so little about their system and their personal ditie personalities, you need even more direct talks. it's kind of a golden rule in diplomacy that you really want to with something this important is to have a direct conversation, and not rely, as good an ally as south koreans are, not really rely on what a third party report from your negotiating partner with the what he actually might do. >> when you watch these negotiations from various places you've been, because you've been in so many administrations, is the hardest part figuring out

what concessions we can make, the united states can make and live with and live with domestically because that's -- we often forget, the other side is going to make a deal, the u.s. has to move as well? >> you have to have an understanding of what could be the common areas. you have to have a set of clear goals and a discipline around pursuit of those goals. but you also have to be sure you keep up the pressure and leverage is very, very important and i feel in this count circumstance, that we may have given up the leverage too early and we gave up leverage at the end, little things like this, that isn't so little. it was the north koreans didn't walk away, the united states will walk away. i know there's been some reporting that president trump didn't want the north koreans to back out first. i think that analyst is incorrect. i think it's important for the united states to appear as if they were pursuing a common goal

here. this week, tony blair is back, talking about populism, globalism and religious extremism. a fascinating and wide ranging interview when we come back.

this coming friday, june 1, will mark the 10th anniversary of "gps." on that date in 2008, cnn aired the first-ever episode of this show. welcome to the very first edition of "the global public square." i'm fareed zakaria. for the last 20 years i have been writing about the world and now i have an opportunity to bring all of you along with me

on what has been a fascinating adventure. we started the show with tony blair who has spent the ensuing ten years using that great mind of his to talk about things like globalism, populism and so celebrate the anniversary i could not think of a better guest to have on that tony blair. tony, thanks for coming on the air. >> thank you. >> the mideast remarked by turmoil. but asia rising and ping, latin america doing quite well, is there an overall picture? >> there is an overall picture. the picture is one of huge change, which is discomforting to the west. but it's an interesting thing, when my institute looks at example, attitudes -- take, say,

india and nigeria and put it against north korea and the uk, given the respective weather of the four countries, in india and nigeria, they think the next generation will do better than them. we have the opposite feeling of them in the west. so we have the rise in chinese, huge things that are impacting the world. you have this whole question unresolved around radical islam and how that works out. you've got the populism in the west and you've got this technological revolution. these are the four things that are going to govern for the next 10 to 20 years how politics operate. because things are changing outside the west, that are having an impact inside the u.s. >> you said the next great

society will be open versus closed. describe what you mean by that. >> by open, i mean an approach to the world that says globalization is essentially a good thing but you have to mitigate and assess its opportunities and risks and not just let it go wherever it wants, as it were. and it's also open to new ideas, open across boundaries of culture and faith and race and it necessarity and closed is -- ethnicity and closed is kind of isolationist, protectionist. nativist, and you can see these arguments were beginning then, and obviously they're even more manifest now today. >> what i'm struck by is that you notice what the old divide, the old categories were collapsing and you can see it in the republican partythe staunch of free trade. when you ask republicans do you support free trade, it was like 65%, and it's dropped i think 25 points, or something in that

magnitude, so do you think we're ending up with a new political frame work where you have the parties that want to block globalization, immigration, open -- you know, that they want obstacles, they want barriers and then there's the party that wants more of this opens with some safety net? >> i think, to be self critical, i was kind of right and wrong. i think that making the distinction is very important. but i think i was wrong in thinking that traditional left politics kind of disappeared or traditional right politics disappeared. no, they're still present, they have probably been pulled out to the extremes however. i think that there are also new political coalitions today. so i noticed that you get a strange coalition between people who are intensely nationalistic, often anti-immigration, quite isolationist, but also free market, small government people, that coalition brought us brexit in a sense that i think it was very much part of the coalition that brought president trump to power. then you've got a group of

people that i would designate on the old left side of it. free this, free that, larger tax and spend, but it's lost a lot of its appealing than when i was in number 10 downing street. and you've got this third grouping, which i consider myself a part, of people who are socially liberal, but on the economy, strongly pro enterprise, future oriented, in favor of social justice, but in a modernized form. what is strange about western politics today, is that you've got groupings that don't follow traditional left-right patterns and lines. they don't really follow where traditional parties are today. and i think you've got large numbers of people who kind of feel politically hopeless in that situation. >> one of the things you have also written about, this is a

fundamentally a cultural revolution. i want you to expand on that, but also does it help us understand why it seems so often, when you talk about these groupings that people are not actually voting on the basis of their core economic class interests in the old marxist sense of the world, when you think of the working class voting for republicans who are voting to slash benefits to the working class? >> yes, and i think it's part again of the fracturing, so you've got some people that might vote republican or vote conservative from traditional working class areas who just think they're going to get represented better. i do think myself the cultural aspect of this is as important as the economic. if you just look at the election in italy, the most powerful driver was anxiety over immigration, over a feeling that, you know, italy is being

governed by people who didn't get the lives of ordinary people. i think the big challenge for people who are not on the conservative side of politics, but the progressive side, is how do you make sense of this and what is the right political strategy to recapture politics for the progressive side. because when i'm looking around western democracy today, other than canada, if you think of a reasonably large western country, i can't think of one other than canada in which a traditional liberal left party is in office. >> what does that mean? why has the left collapsed? because you see it around the western world. >> i think the left has misunderstood their defeat and developed a narrative that is a sort of the mirror image of the poppism of the right, so it's

decided that it's got to go further to the left, with what we call neo liberal parties and if we move further to the left, we're going to pull people along with us. and i'm afraid -- i just don't think there's evidence for that. and what's more, i think whatever the populism of the right up against the populism of the left, the populism of the right tends to win. >> we have to take a quick break now, but we will be back with more of tony blair, i'm going to ask him about what progressives should do, what to do about brexit and what to make of the populists who are in power. >> the trouble with populists, there's nothing wrong with being popular, i think most politicians want to be popular. bring us doubt, and we'll bring you the first car with true hands-free driving for the freeway. bring us a challenge and we'll reinvent what it means to own a car.

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wrong with being popular, most politicians want to be popular. i define populism as wririding anger is not an answer. you've got to provide an answer because that's what people expect governments to do. the question is, if the progressives don't respond to this in the right way, they're going to face a continuing set of defeats and that's why i'm in favor of the politics of reaching out and building bridges. i'm not in favor of the politics that says these people are just, they're the enemy, they opposed to us, they're not going to be with us, and we just need to stack up as many votes as we can from those who agree with us. >> you talk about how we have had enough of experts. you say to yourself, the next time you need to go to a doctor,

i'm guessing you're going to go to an expert, not your local witch doctor, but there is that sense and it is part of a society that has been sorted into this educated credentialed elite. i think about the labor cabinet in britain in the 1960s, there would be people who were generally working class, who didn't have college degrees, i think about ernest bevins, these are real working class people. these are very posh, oxford, cambridge, that's the reality of society, isn't it? can you do anything about it? >> we had working class--my deputy prime minister certainly would not agree with the description of him as part of the liberal elite, but where you're right is, there is a gulf

between people who inhabit one form of culture and one set of ideas and people who inhabit another. but this is why i think it's important to bridge that divide, and, you know, one of the things i find frustrating is when, you know, to put it very bluntly, i fought for re-election and i won three, and then subsequently, if we had still in in power over these last 10, 11 years, we would be doing things differently. for sure, after the financial crisis, you had to take radical and different measures. for sure today, you've got to understand these cultural problems that are even deeper during the time that i was in. but the basic approach of saying how do you get a unifying economic and social message that keeps the country thinking it's one group of people even with different views, i think that's incredibly important, and i

really feel the polarization, if -- which is the bane of democracy. this polarization, if you separate into two groups, two tribes who don't talk to each other, listen to each other or even much like each other, you're going to have a problem. and over time what comes out of that and let's be very clear about this, an alternative form of democracy, or an alternative form of government, which you might call the strong man rule. and it derives itself in the fact that in an uncertain world when people are feeling insecure, there a guy that usually comes along and says this is what i'm going to do and i don't care that you don't like it, this is what i'm going to do, and some people like that. >> when you have a certain kind of populism in power, but it isn't delivering too much, is

there going to be a breakdown between more and more anger? what is your fear? >> my fear is, if you take brexit--the trick is that brexit isn't an answer to any of the britain's problems, it's not really an answer to immigration really. and this is if you try this populism and it doesn't work, the risk is that when it becomes clear that it doesn't work, the populists double down, they don't retreat. you've got to be careful about being an alarmist about this, i notice two things. i think there are strains within the western democratic system that have not been present at least for a very long time. and secondly, outside of western democracy, there is a different model of government that people are setting up. i mean look what's happening in china at the moment. i mean it's fascinating, okay? it's not just that the chinese have put president xi in power now for a long period of time,

if you look to the people in china, they will say to you, we have looked at your system, we looked at the state of your democracy and we don't think it works. i passionately believe democracy is ultimately the way forward for many countries, but if you look at china at the moment, from the 1950s when the soviet union was held up as not only an effective form of ideas, but an effective form of government, it collapsed later, but at that point, it was competing with us. i think we're back to that situation. >> what do you think about brexit? >> i would like to see it changed. i mean, i think that -- the truth is the reason there is no answer to this whole government dilemma. the government keeps kicking the can down the road, because it

can't really make this choice, and the basic choice is this, if you want to stay close to europe because half of our trade is with europe, and trade really matters to the uk and to jobs. if you abide by the rules, people will say what's the point of leaving? alternative, you say i want to free myself from all of those rules and so you're going to do medium term economic damage as you adjust. in which case the country is going to ask, what's the price? so in that dilemma, what's the point or what's the price, in the next weeks, or months, maybe, the government is going to have to decide which is right and once they come down on one side or the other, the government is going to have to double down. i think there are significant numbers of conservative mps who will say to their own

constituents, look, i can't support this, if you the people want to vote for it, let's put it back to you, in terms that you who made the original referendum decision, should take a final vote on the outcome. >> a second referendum? >> yes, but it's a different referendum, it's the benefit of two years of knowledge and knowing what the alternative is. it's a chance for the public to say, yes, we wanted to leave, but we have seen the results, do we want to proceed? >>t tony blair talks about religious extremism. >> the most positive sign i think is that it is increasingly clear that there is a large ground swell of opinion within the broader community of islam which says our religion has been abused. kyle, we talked about th. there's no monsters. but you said they'd be watching us all the time.

no, no. no, honey, we meant that progressive would be protecting us 24/7. we just bundled home and auto and saved money. that's nothing to be afraid of. -but -- -good night, kyle. [ switch clicks, door closes ] ♪ i told you i was just checking the wiring in here, kyle. he's never like this. i think something's going on at school. -[ sighs ] -he's not engaging. i think something's going on at school. if you have moderate to severe or psoriatic arthritis, little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. and for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. tell your doctor if these occur. otezla is associated with an increased

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it's inspected by mercedes-benz factory-trained technicians. or it isn't. it's backed by an unlimited mileage warranty, or it isn't. for those who never settle, it's either mercedes-benz certified pre-owned, or it isn't. the mercedes-benz certified pre-owned sales event. now through may 31st. only at your authorized mercedes-benz dealer. we are back with the former british prime minister tony blair. ten years ago this week he was the guest on the first-ever airing of "gps." it was june of 2008 that al qaeda was on the wane. we couldn't have known what would happen to osama bin laden and others of the like that have popped up. one of the things the blair institute concentrates on is

countering extremism. before we get to the larger problem of extremism, i want to ask you about a particular variation of it. hamas and what has just happened. you have spent so much time dealing with this problem. do you think it's fair to say as the israeli government does, that those 60 people that were killed, that it was hamas's fault because they sacrificed those people to media attention? >> look, i think it's a tragedy when people die as a consequence of what's happening in gaza. and i see it from both sides, and since i'm actually still involve in trying to find a way through, it's probably better that i don't, kind of apportion blame in that way. but there has to be a different way forward for gaza and in my view, the two absolutely central things that we should be focused on right now in the middle east

peace process, obviously you've got the whole question of the peace plan that the administration is working on, but the two most important things in my mind are a humanitarian plan for gaza that renews its infrastructure, opens it up, gives people hope and jobs and i think it is possible that you would get agreement to the creation of a truce to make that a reality. >> you think hamas has changed a little? >> i think what has happened, as the region changes, there's no future for hamas, unless they're part of their own -- the regional partners and those regional partners are in favor of peace and in favor of a two-state solution, so i can't be sure, no one can be sure, but it's worth finding out because you cannot carry out a position where you've got more than two

million people, a quarter of the population is under the age of 5, the median age is 19 in gaza, if you carry on in this situation, quite apart from the appalling circumstances that people are living in, you're going to create a massive crisis. so i'm in favor of doing everything that's necessary to bring about a change in the humanitarian situation. the second thing is there's got to be a way of unifying palestinian politics in favor of peace and the two-state solution that's roughly set out in the arab peace initiative. there's no peace deal you're going to be able to be able to do if palestinian -- these are the two priorities, the peace plan with the administration's developing, let's hope it's successful, but without those those two things, you have no chance in my view of getting peace. >> al qaeda has essentially kind

of petered out, isis has been defeated. do you think this means that the problem of islamic radicalism and fundamentalism is on the wane? >> no, because i'm afraid al qaeda has not petered out, they're very still very significant, and their position at tposition -- you've got different terrorists groups around the world, you've got it in the far east as well as the middle east. and you've got it in africa as well as elements in europe. no, i think we're a long way off defeating this, but i think there are some positive signs and the most positive sign is that i think it is increasingly clear that there is a large ground swell of opinion within the broader community of islam if you like, that says our

region has been abused, it should not be changed into a -- that alliance that we can form today with those moderate and forward looking leaders in the middle east and elsewhere, is my view the key to defeating this extremism. >> tony blair, always a pleasure. >> thank you very much. next, scientists say the great pacific garbage patch is much worse than initially thought. i'll tell you about one inknow innovative plan to clean up 1.7 billion pieces of plastic floating in the sea when we come back.

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. according to united nations latest report on global tour im, international travel is up world wide, but one country in particular has seen an incredible surge in foreign visitors. it brings me to my question, which country has seen the greatest increase in tourism between 2010 and 2017? france, united states, italy or japan? stay tuned, we'll tell you the answer. my book of the week, philip roth's "good-bye columbus" he died last week. he was to my mind one of the most important novelists. the "new york times" did a survey of the prior 25 years of fiction and six of philip roth's books received multiple votes from prominent critics. this is his debut a collection of short stories win when herself 26-years-old that won

the national book award in 1960. now for the last look. 1. million spare kilometers, about the size of iran, twice the size of texas. more than three times the size of sprain, the size of floating trash known as the great pacific trash. it's up 16 times than scientists previously lo thought they thought 1.8 trillion pieces of plastic are swirling at the site. pick tiny bottle caps that sea creatures can ingest. what is to be done? well, one organization has the plan to catch the plastic. it's made of recyclable pipes filled with air trapping plastic at the sfachlts it would be weighted by anchors so the cleanup contraption moves slower

than the ocean currents to stop and track it, which will be recycled back on dry land. the system currently under construction in california will be released this summer. the ocean cleanup intends to release a whole fleet. five years later they say they will clear half the debris. many more like it. the answer is d, the number of foreign visitors to japan skyrocketed, from 8.5 million in 2010. an increase of 230% in just five years. what's going on? relaxation of visa rules have led to a huge increase from china, korea and southeast asia. there has been a bomb from visitors as well.

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