pulitzer prize in 1987. earlier this month he told readers he only had few weeks to live because of an aggressive form of cancer. i leave this life with no regrets, he wrote. it was a wonderful life. time to hand it over to chris. "cuomo prime time" starts now. >> thank you, arounderson. welcome to prime time. my friends, do not be fooled. the crisis at the border is far from over. trump's executive order stunt may have made the situation worse. is this really only about reuniting families to lock them up for longer? cory lew nachlt. dowski under fire for appearing to dismiss the plight of these innocent kid ons live tv. will he apologize? we'll see. we'll hear from an attorney with a story that will break your heart and boil your blood. he represents a mom and her three young kids. wait until you hear how long he has been trying to get to the

kids. >> and last week the attorney general was quoting scripture to justify ripping kids apart from their parents at the border. today, a reversal of biblical proportions. >> the american people don't like the idea that we're separating families. we never really intended to do that. >> what? wasn't that exactly the intention, mr. sessions? what do you say, my friends? let's get after it. we saw something we haven't seen, trump caving to political pressure. the former campaign manager who ignited fury after seeing kids separated on tv from their families.

cory lewandowski. there's a lot of fallout from what you said. let me remind people about the back and forth you had with the democratic operative. >> about a 10-year-old girl with down syndrome who was taken from her mother and put in a cage. i read about a -- >> did they just say wah-wah? how dare you. how dare you! >> when you -- >> how absolutely dare you, sir. >> let's get through the noise. cory? tell me that you did not mean to insult kids with down syndrome or families coming across with kids like that. >> chris, of course i never meant to insult anybody with down syndrome. who i was talking to was zach. i understand what the perception is here and what the media wants to talk about. but what zach was attempting to do was to use a child with down syndrome to politicize an issue. what he didn't tell you, what you need to understand was that person, that poor child was not taken from her parent because

she came to this country illegally. that poor child was taken from her parent because her mother has been suspected as a material witness in a smuggling ring. i would never degrade a child. i'm a father of four i understand that. we have to get past using children as political tools and come up with real solutions. >> all right but let's get -- i hear what was going on with you and zach. there's bigger realities i need you to address. one involves you. one involves the administration. it seemed like you were dismissing the plight of people coming across the border. and to the extent that that's how people took it and they find that offensive, shouldn't you apologize for that if you didn't mean it? >> i'm not here to offend anybody. i'm here to defend the laws of country. people shouldn't be offended. we're the nation of laws. those laws are very clear. we are the country, the largest

country in the world that grants asylums to individuals being persecuted. we grant over 1 million asylums a year. the second highest country is germany. we are a country of immigrants, a country with a big heart and that wants to welcome people in. you have to do it legally. if we don't have laws and rules, then we can't be successful. and people understand that. we're a great country. we're all immigrants, chris. but we have a different way of coming here. and it has to be done legally. and that's what's important. >> right. but justice is fairness under law. so you've got the law and then you've got how you choose to enforce t we know what happened here. the president wanted to make a statement of strength. he didn't plan for his own success. he didn't set up the facilities, the process. he just went with the politics and the message. now we have a mixed message from the president. he put out an executive order

saying i get it, that crying kids are bad for me. we shouldn't be like this. i'm going to fix it. i want to play for you what he said and then what he said today. >> the american people don't like the idea that we're separating families. we never really intended to do that. >> if you are smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you. and that child may be separated from you as required by law. >> 2,000-mile journey up mexico. they walk through mexico like they're walking through central park. it's ridiculous. they're drug traffickers. they are human traffickers. they're coyotes. i mean, we're getting some real beauties. mexico is doing nothing for us except taking our money and sending us drugs. >> all right. i wanted to be very clear here. sometimes people say, like you cory, well, that's the president. he speaks. he's a little hyperbolic.

i wanted to show you him and the attorney general jeff sessions. both said completely contradi contradictory things. trump and sessions said this would going to be about making it okay and they both contradicted themselves. what is the policy? >> let me read you exactly what the president said yesterday. it's about keeping families together while at the same time being sure that we are very powerful, very strong border. that's what it's about. >> but he said something else. in a cabinet meeting today. do we have the sound to play for corey? he said today at the cabinet meeting this executive order, corey, is limited. and families will still be separated. so what the hell is the policy? he signed the executive order to make so they wouldn't be separated and today he said they still will be separated. >> chris, the problem is that there's a federal ruling that you know exists right now and would be appealed to the ninth circuit. ten states are challenging the executive order right now. what this president has said is that he has done everything he

can within the confines of the law which have been established to fix the problem. this is congress' problem. the democrats had supermajorities in the u.s. in 60 votes, in the majority in the house in 2006 and '08 and they chose not to fix this problem. >> who signed the 2008 law that guides today, who signed it? >> barack obama. >> wrong. 2008, it was signed by president bush. okay? i'm not big into politics blame game i think there are problems with both sides toos why we've been stuck with a bad system that is inhumane on many levels for many years. however let's call the facts as they fall. bush signed it. it says you can't keep juveniles more than 20 days and treat them in the right conditions. it was a humane settlement that the doj agreed to. it isn't about the law. it's how you choose to enforce t bush struggled with this. obama struggled with this. trump was struggling with this

but decided to do this proxy of strength in the form of harshness. let's arrest them all. but he wasn't ready for it, and he created a crisis, corey. that's the truth. >> look what has happened under the trump administration. because our economy is so successful, unaccompanied alien children, pending cases are up to 78,000 right now pending cases. there were 3,000 in 2009. approximately 90% of the removal orders ordered against unaccompanied children each year for failures to appear is the problem. we've seen a 636% increase in unaccompanied aliens at ports of entry. >> right. >> since 2017, april of 2017. this has gone out of control because what has happened in the past -- >> isn't it out of control now, corey? >> absolutely. it's out of control. >> we agree on the problem. here are the points -- >> we need a solution.

>> this wasn't the solution. that's my point. that's my point, corey. >> let me tell you what the solution is. >> he's making it worse. >> chris, let me tell what the solution is. democrats and republicans have to get together. senate can't get it down without nine democratic votes. men and women in congress need to serve the problems. >> republicans won't put up a bill -- other than ted cruz and even that has add-ons, nobody on the republican side, unless you throw a camera in their face and say how do you feel about separating kids from families they're not putting out bills with gusto to stop this problem. they're using it as leverage. to me that doesn't speak to a basic sense of humanity about this. >> look, i don't disagree with you. but the problem has existed for a long time. we've given congress a pass for too long for not saving it. >> hold on a second, corey. i hear you. i've got to tell you, it's slipping the blame here.

congress needs to act. the system has problems, period. okay. but that doesn't justify what trump just did here. he did something that he had to know, if he has any common sense and any kind of council around him was going to blow up the situation in a bad way. they had to know, corey. and he did it anyway. >> chris? chris, you would have rather seen additional children being separated from their parents? >> no. he's separating the kids. >> he stopped that from happening. >> he did the separations by increasing the arrests. he changed the policy from -- >> he signed an executive order yesterday. >> i know. and he today he said it was -- >> no more separation. >> i know. >> but look -- >> nothing has been followed through on. and he doesn't satisfy say how he will reunitee the kids whachlt about that? >> you can only solve one problem at a time. look, there's one problem at a time to solve. >> he created the problem, corey. that's what i'm saying.

>> chris, because the law is the law. >> he said let me -- >> chris, we're a nation of laws and the law was very clear. and there is an opportunity to enforce the laws that exist. we need to change those laws. >> then you wind up like this. >> the president sait said i'm going to follow the laws. let's build a border wall. as soon as you build that wall, 90% of this problem stops. >> we don't know that. >> absolutely. >> we don't know that any wall would make that kind of difference. we glossed over one thing. hold on. we glossed over something. and i need to hit you on one more thing. we glossed over something. why is the number up? the economy is strong. what does that mean? the demand is strong. what does that mean? we have so many jobs. the flow of supply in from south of the border. let me ask you this. for all your round-ups and demonizing of the people who come here from the work, how many employers have you put in

jail? how many laws have you changed? they're all civil laws if you come for the job you get treated like a dog and thrown in a cage. is that right to you, corey? >> do you know what's not right to me? kate steinle who is dead because of the people who came across the border illegally. >> the number of crimes is lower than the overall crime rate. if you're worried about people being killed you have a lot of other places to look. >> one is one too many. you tell that to the families -- >> don't give me the compassion -- >> tell that to brian terry, the police officer killed guarding this country and was killed on the border. >> whether they're undocumented or not? >> what i'm telling you as a former police officer i can tell you this, we should never have a police officer killed in the line of duty from anybody illegally in this country. >> we should never have a police officer killed in country

period. >> that's right. and if you're not in this country illegally you're not doing that. >> feeding the need for jobs and workers but you're not going after the people who are really causing it the people who are hiring them. >> this president -- >> you won't even the answer. why not go after the employers? >> here is what this president said. chris, here is what the president said. give me the money for the wall and people who are in this country through no fault of their own, we will make them citizens, give them a path. he has offered that and the democrats have said no. >> that's not true. >> it is absolutely true. >> they gave him the wall for daca and he wanted chain migrat oichlt n. >> they never gave him money for the wall. >> $25 billion and daca and he said i want the other things. >> they gave him a down payment on the wall. chris, they gave him a down payment for the wall. ''s asking for the money for the wall. >> he got money for the wall. that's how it works. >> he didn't get $25 billion for

the wall. >> he got $25 billion over a certain number of years. >> chris, the congress funds one year at a time is what they fund. >> facts are friends. you won't talk about why you don't go after employers. why not? >> of course you have to go after employers. look, why don't we force e-verify? absolutely. if employers are employing illegal aliens to do things illegally, they should be held accountable. >> look what happened in ohio. >> those employers are held accountable, employers who want to hire illegals need to be held accountable. >> they're not, though. they're not. >> why aren't we using that? >> they are using it. look what happened in ohio. >> enforce the law. >> look what just happened in ohio. >> what laws do you want to enforce? >> i think you enforce all the laws. >> which ones? >> it's discretion of how you enforce them fairly. >> no, you only want to enforce

the ones that are convenient. >> how is this convenient? >> the books -- you just said you want to enforce all the laws. the law on the book says if you come to this country illegally you'll be separated. >> that's not what it says. >> what law can we enforce? >> that's not what the law says. >> it absolutely says that. >> it does not. it says if you come across the border, it is a crime. if you come over with children, you're not allowed to keep children in the conditions that you keep adults. that's on you, to come up with the right proceed ours. >> and you will be separated. it says you will be separated. >> and you had no plan for how to take care of them, no plan for what to do with the kids under the law and no way to deal with it quickly. now you're asking the courts for more time. that's the solution? let's lock up kids for longer? come on. >> united states has different laws than any other country. let's go to merit based system. >> why don't you lock up some employers? show people that you are fair

handed in this and make them all ms-13 and killers? >> i agree with you, chris. let's implement e-verify. >> they don't do that. they're putting kids in cages. they catch a guy in ohio with 100 illegal laborers in his company, he gets a fine. that's fair? >> we caught a guy in california who killed kate steinle and he got off. he had been deported five times, came and killed a woman on a peer in california sfle got off because of a trial in which they didn't find him guilty of the charges. >> okay. go ask kate's father, who was there, if he killed her or not. >> you feel for the victims. i'm saying that was the law. that was the process. they had a trial. that is what they found. justice doesn't always make everybody happy. >> he had been deported five times. >> i get t he should have never been here. that's why people have been here. he never should have been here. that doesn't mean all people who come illegally liker like him. let me end on this. >> i don't agree.

>> fine. >> i don't disagree with you, that everyone is not like that animal who killed kate steinle. the point is this. is there a there is a way to come to this country legally. we accept more immigrants than any country in the world. if you don't want your children separating -- >> your separating the asylum people getting treated like everybody else. the claim isn't getting processed quickly and you didn't plan it out. >> that's not true. >> will you admit that the way this was done was a mistake? >> implementing the law, following the law? >> the president had to admit it by signing this executive order, whatever it means or doesn't mean. would you admit this is a mistake? will you own it? >> i'll admit this very clearly. no one wants to see their children separated from their parents. >> you shouldn't have started

doing it. >> this is what happens when you have the law and break the laws. don't rob a bank with your children. chris, if you rob a bank with your children, guess what -- >> it's a fel ony. not a misdemeanor crossing the border. you showed intent to harm people. >> if you went to any other country in the world and crossed their border illegally, would you expect to be able to stay with your children? >> germany has a much more open -- you say crime went up. the opposite is true. their illegal inentries are down. trump can't get his facts straight. >> they only accept 198,300. we take 1.2 million in asylum a year. >> that's about demand, right? i appreciate you making it clear to the audience you weren't intending to offend people when what you said on tv.

we can disagree but not be without decency. thank you for coming on to clear that up and making the case. coreylewandowski. the trump administration said it reversed course on separating families. is it true? it depends on which donald trump you want to believe. but for all we know, this is the one thing we have for sure. this is a crisis. that's what it is. and it is far from over. in fact, we will show you why the worst may lie ahead. [music playing] (vo) from day one,

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all right. facts first. this executive order is neither definitive action by the executive nor is it an order to make any real change. so what was it? it was a stunt. it was a stunt to make this seem like a legal situation when it's never been one. the law is clear. this is about how you choose to enforce it. why are we having this big problem now if the laws haven't changed? because the policy did. president trump could have stopped all of this with a phone call. the executive order was not necessary. it may not even be operative. the order said it is meant to, quote, maintain family unit. okay? that's what he said. so, no separation. but then today, the president said the order is limited and families will still be separated. so which trump is it? the most glaring owe mission from the order? how do you reunitee the 2,300 kids torn from their parents spread all over the country? the administration hasn't provided any details on the plan. why is that? is it because all the agencies are confused about what to do

now because this has been so haphazard or is it that the president does not intend to expedite reunification? we don't know. many of these kids, as i said, are hundreds of thousands of miles away. this idea of reuniting them, it's getting harder, not easier. the government has trouble tracking kids in this situation and we know that the ownness is still put on the parents, who are often broke and uneducated migrants, to find their own kids. in fact, the administration is now asking the court -- this is where it gets messy, which is why we designed it this way. they're asking the court how long can we keep them? can we keep them longer? in direct violation of law. legally dubious at a minimum. the idea that we want to keep them in captivity longer? how is that about making this better? even if families do get reunited, where will we keep them? these ever swelling ranks of

families. the order instructs federal agencies, particularly the defense department, to prepare facilities to house the potentially thousands of families that will be detained. hhs has reportedly told the military to prepare for up to 20,000 unaccompanied minors on bases in the coming months. so they're going to round up more people and then figure out where to put them. is that strength or is that stupidity? to quote a jacket in the news, do they really care? now i know that my guests want to get in on this. let's bring them in for the great debate. van jones and david urban. i put it out there for you, david. you're shaking your head. make the case that this situation is okay. >> no, it's not okay. it's a terrible situation, chris. you just outlined on your white board there, your massive white board is a refugee crisis in america. the united states of america is

facing a refugee crisis from three countries, el salvador, guatemala, honduras. as corey pointed out earlier, the united states, for the first time, has granted asylum to refugees more than any other country in the world. that says something. the united states needs to take a look at close to $70 million it grants to the organization of american states, oas has 21 members, supposed to be protecting democracy, human rights in the americas. that's central america as well. and they're sitting on their hands doing nothing. the u.n. commission on refugees, sitting on their hands, doing nothing. it's a big deal across the rest of the world. >> what does that have to do? >> chris, this is what i'm saying. it's a problem. >> you're creating the problem. >> i'm not creating the problem. the problem is created by the highest murder rate in the world. hold on. in el salvador. if you make their home country safe, chris, if folks aren't terrified for their lives in

guatemala, el salvador, the only other place that's more violent in the planet is syria. the highest murder per capita in the world. why are we talking about those things? >> i think we are, but van -- >> why isn't the oas and the u.n. -- >> i hear you. the reason we're not talking about it primarily is because it is a distraction from the issue of how we are dealing with the people who come across our border. van jones? the source of the problem is not america. it's where these people are coming from. fair enough. but the issue of how do we deal with the people who come here from these terrible places. mr. urban is making a case in desperation. >> thank you, mr. cuomo. >> treat you with respect. earn it. what is your side of this? >> well, there is a minor issue and a major issue. minor issue is that there a refugee crisis. if we weren't doing dumb stuff in the united states, we would be able to address what's happening there.

but the major crisis is that there's a moral crisis in america. we have seen a moral collapse. ever since trump came down that escalator three years ago, he came down, he kept going down and down and down. he has pulled the moral fabric of the country down with him. the good news is that there was a bipartisan across every racial group, every state, moral revolt and rebellion against the trump attempt to reset the moral standard of this country so low, we would have prison camps for babies. that's where we are. the reality is to go forward now. if this president were serious, he would have done -- the first thing he would have done -- i am appointing a czar of family reunification. that person is going to be in the white house. they're going to have staff. they're going to have interagency power. they're going to report to me. they've got 30 days to report back to me where every one of these babies -- none of that happened. i saw this executive order, i was happy. i felt the people spoke and the president responded.

the problem is that it looks like it was a stunt. >> no. come on. >> anybody watching this, my question to anybody watching this is who is responsible in the white house to find these babies and why don't you know? >> so, van, to answer your question, chris, it is a -- you know, this is a logistical issue. if the united states government can't track 2,000 folks. i don't know if that's the number, that they don't know where 2,000 parents and kids. i don't know that that's the full number. let's assume it's the full 2,000. i'm pretty certain that the department of justice and department of homeland security, department of health and human services can all work together as van is saying to locate 2,000 folks. i've heard democrats on the other side of the aisle say this is not an insurmountable task. it will be done. i think it should be done, obviously. chris, to another point, your white board, it's about selective enforcement of the law. as corey outlined earlier, we take more immigrants than anybody. they show up at a port of entry.

that's the law. you show up at the port of entry. you claim asylum. you can't show up in the middle of the desert. it's against the law. >> back to van. >> the problem that we have is that people who were doing it the way that you said, people who were not breaking our law, but were following our law, wound up in the exact same situation and their babies were taken too. listen, we have a major problem now because inside that building, inside the white house, there seems to be a tug of war, some kind of moral tug of war between people like stephen miller who has a bad track record when it comes to racism and nasty elements to seems to be driving an agenda here. it's not about the law. the law didn't change. the implementation changed. that means that there is a decision that was made to get hard, to get tough, to crack down. >> to enforce the law. >> hold on. and then they wouldn't own the fact that they were doing it for deterrent purposes. they want to blame democrats.

you want to blame the organization of american states, which i haven't even heard of. >> constitutional avenue. >> everybody but president trump for president trump's policies and that's not good. >> van, so do you -- what is your solution of enforcement of border laws? >> i've got a solution. i've been talking to grassroots across the country. here is the deal. we do want to make sure that people who come here have their claims processed and that they don't just run off into the country and we don't know where they are. it's not good to separate families and put babies in prison by themselves. it's also not good to lock up whole families when you don't have to. >> you still didn't tell me your policy. >> i'm getting there. i'm getting there. there's a program called community accompaniment. they actually have had a 96% success rate of placing people with american families and those families get them to court. it's humane. the families stay together. it is 96% effective. why aren't we doing stuff like that?

>> van, i don't disagree. there are plenty of ways. chris, you know this from being a lawyer. there are plenty of ways that people are out on parole, probation, check in with their parole officer. >> that's a better way. >> ankle bracelets. take some of that $67 million you're spending on an organization that's doing nothing to affect the actual crisis. no, no -- >> and the aos money, you want to reallocate it. but you're ignoring the crisis. okay? with all due respect. you're ignoring -- you asked him to give you a solution. he gave you a damn good one that already exists. but you knew about that solution but ignored it. why? it doesn't meet the mandate. you wanted to show that you are harsh and you will punish the people who will come across. you just didn't prepare for your own success. you didn't prepare with all these people and all these kids and how angry people would get when they started hearing those kids crying. and that's why trump caved. own it. >> listen, i will agree, chris.

when you enforce the law that one has done to date -- >> it's how you enforce it. >> you can choose to take people who cross the border illegally and prosecute them or not. there's catch and release or there's not. >> if you're going to prosecute them shouldn't you have -- >> it's your choice. >> van jones, if you're going to prosecute the law, wouldn't you have thought of how you're going to deal with the overflow, where you're going to keep them, how you keep consistent with the constitution, the soul of your country? wouldn't you have thought about that first? >> sure. the problem is that the white house is being run a little bit like a reality television show. let's try this. let's try that. let's see what the audience reaction s i'm very afraid to make an admission here. i think had it not been for a couple of photographs and a little bit of sound of babies crying, this might have gone on. it's still going on. this may have gone on even more. >> i don't even think we showed the worst of it, by the way. the president spent more time today trying to make sense of his wife's jacket than he did of

how to get these families together. >> do you remember this occurred in the obama administration, outrage, lawsuits from the aclu? >> yes. >> so, this isn't something that's new. >> it doesn't make it okay either dorks it? >> i'm not saying it's okay. >> you kind of are. you're saying we weren't upset then. we were upset. >> no, you weren't. >> went down to the border and went crazy about it. did a whole documentary about how they keep people on the border. you guys have to own the facts. you guys decided to do this. you're trying to make it okay because someone else had a similar situation and you have the president today talking about his wife's jacket, putting more thought into how to blame the media. what about that one, dave? do you believe that that jacket was about her hating the media? do you believe that or do you believe the president is lying again? come on. >> no, i don't -- >> come on, dave. >> who would it be about, chris? >> i don't know. but the idea that it's about us, when she invited the media with

her makes no sense. and her own spokesperson said it wasn't about that. >> right. it's a jacket. >> crazy land. >> it's a jacket. >> maybe she should have worn a different jacket. you have to give kudos to the fact that she did stand up to her own husband. she did tweet about it. she did go down there. maybe she should wear something different. i wish people in her position should stick up more. don't let the jacket become the issue. the issue is where are these babies? >> they're safe in hhs. >> i talked to people who have had these babies returned and these babies come back traumatized. they feel like they're adopting their own kid. because the kid has been treated badly. >> it's a horrific situation.

it's a terrible situation. >> then own it. don't say they're safe and sound. >> it's not like they're laying on the street, van. >> that's not the only alternative. laying on the street isn't the -- >> i'm not saying it's the only alternative. i agree with van. let's use technology to make it a better system. >> last word. we have to wrap it up. go ahead, van. >> i had this role in the white hou house. i was a czar, so-called. you have one person who is responsible. interagency authority. you give them a deadline. you get it done. if that does not happen, people should be in the streets about this. find these babies. find the babies. that's all. >> i have great confidence in general kelly and others in the white house. >> let's see. >> appoint somebody. >> general kelly said he wanted to do this and do it for deterrent effect. dave urban, you should be the reunification czar. you still have to come on the show. van jones, thank you very much. we'll be right back with the republican who once warned immigrants about the consequences of voting for president trump.

he was a member of president bush's cabinet. you have to remember it's been a month since these kids, three that we're showing you right now -- imagine these kids. i've got ones just like this at home. many of you do as well. they haven't seen their mother in a month. their mother's lawyer hasn't even been able to get them yet. a look at the families that are caught in this complex web, stretching all over the damn country. next. you might take something for your heart... or joints. but do you take something for your brain. with an ingredient originally found in jellyfish, prevagen is the number one selling brain-health supplement in drug stores nationwide. prevagen. the name to remember. proven to protect street skaters and freestylers. stops up to 97% uv. lasts through heat. through sweat. coppertone. proven to protect.

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i want to show you what a washington post reporter tweeted just over an hour ago. take a look at this.

it's shockingly difficult for immigration attorneys to locate children separated from their parents at the border. today, i spoke to lawyers who represent more than 400 parents. they have located two children, all right? this is about families, people waiting for answers right now as they watch this show. that includes a mother detained in arizona. her three kids, 5, 8 and 10, okay? they're reportedly in new york. i say reportedly because our next guest is a lawyer working for that family. his name is jose javier orachena. you are here reportedly i say because you're not 100% sure. is that true? >> that's true. the family contacted our office, hiring us to help them, first, get a bond for the mother who is in arizona. also they asked us, because we're local -- the family, extended family is in north carolina. they asked us to go and inquiry about the children, their

safety, their health and i've gone to the foster center where they're allegedly held. i say allegedly because i have spoken to a social worker. she confirmed that the three children are there. when i asked for more details, what are they doing? what do they eat? where do they sleep? are they together, the siblings, i can't get a straight answer. >> can you see them? >> no. >> even though you represent them as counsel? >> i have been unable to see them. they are in my backyard and i cannot see them. i understand the precautions with the -- they're minor children. and i'm assuming that they don't want anybody coming in. but vet me. allow me to see my clients. allow me to relay information to the family in north carolina. allow me to facilitate whatever is needed to the family in north carolina while mother is fighting her case for asylum. >> have they said anything to you about reunification? >> my client's family in north carolina have told me that the

center has given them a list of requirements. >> what does that mean? >> requirements that they meet in order to assure that these kids are going to a safe, loving home. and i applaud them for doing that. i honestly do. but these are uneducated clients of mine in north carolina. they may not know what is needed. i'm here to help them facilitate. >> but you can't help them because you can't get to the kids and coordinate because you can't get access? >> i'm told a supervisor will contact me. four weeks, i haven't been able to -- >> one month, you haven't seen a 5-year-old kid? >> i haven't seen a 5-year-old kid, a 10-year-old kid, 8-year-old kid, supervisor i haven't had a sitdown. >> has the mother been able to? >> according to the social worker, the mother has contact with her children. i can only imagine that the lies the mother has to tell these children in order to make sure that they are happy, that they say i'm just on vacation. i'll be there soon. >> what does the mom tell you about what she knows about the

kids? >> because the mother is detained i have limited access to her. >> you can't get to her either? >> she has a bond hearing set for june 29th. i've asked to appear telefon telephonically. if i don't get word by the 28th i have to buy an emergency ticket to fly out to arizona and be with mother at the hearing on the 29th. >> you said it's an asylum case. >> yes. >> do you believe it's a legitimate asylum case? >> absolutely. >> or someone coming here for an opportunity. >> >> a mother would not take and put her children through the dangers that they face -- >> what do you know about his situation? >> i know about the violence she's facing in guatemala. see the violence that they're face i facing on a daily basis. not only the violence, the starvation, the hunger, the violence. this is why asylum applications are made for.

let us -- asylum application. give us due process. let the children meet with the lawyer hired to represent them, advocate for them. >> why didn't they getg to the port of entry? >> they had no other opportunity. they were not allowed through at the port of entry. they had no other opportunity. it was go back home and face harm, great bodily harm or cross the border and surrender. >> i told you before and i'm going to tell you now on tv. you are fighting a fight that we know that many lawyers are fighting for hundreds of clients at least. as you go through the paces, you will be welcomed back on this show to tell us what's going on because it will be an example of what so many are dealing with. i know that's an army pin on your lapel. i know you're a proud american and i know you're not proud of this situation. we will keep up with you and follow this story. >> i hope that the agency allows me to see my clients. >> counsel, thank you very much. still no answer on what's

going to happen, not just with these kids as beautiful as they are, not to discount them, but they're one of a huge group. 2,000 kids are scattered all over the country. and any plan to actually fix the system is stuck in partisan mud. everybody says they care, but nobody is doing their damn job. let's talk to the man who knows the personal side of this and the policy side. join i joining us now is the commerce secretary under president george w. bush, carlos gutierrez. mr. secretary, thank you for joining us. >> thank you, chris. pleasure. >> want to get your reaction to something that the president said today about the kinds of people that are crossing the border. please listen. >> they encourage people, frankly, to walk through mexico and go into the united states because they're drug traffickers. they're human traffickers, they're coyotes. i mean, we're getting some real beauties. mexico is doing nothing for us

except taking our money and sending us drugs. >> your reaction? >> well, i think it's an amazing exaggeration. it is misleading. it is fear mongering. it makes it sound as if though most immigrants who cross the borders are drug dealers or criminals. and that is absolutely false. i wish someone would use numbers, chris, and just put this thing to rest. this is just rhetoric that is -- incites hatred and incites xenophobia and incites false nationalism. i think it's very, very regretful. >> now the president says it is none of those things. he makes the case that he has the biggest heart in the world. he's giving you the facts that the democrats and sympathizers

like you want to hide from. your reaction to that? >> let's see the facts. let's talk numbers. our unemployment is 3.8%, little over 3.8%. the unemployment among undocumented workers is less than 3.8. why? because there are jobs that are open. the reason we have illegal immigration is because our legal immigration system doesn't work. and our economy needs the workers. and that's the part that people don't understand or don't want to understand. so, this part of the bill that talked about cutting in half the legal immigration, that would be devastating our economy grows in two ways. one is the number of workers and the productivity of those workers.

we are supposed to be the party of prosperity. you cannot have prosperity without immigration. >> there is a feeling now because of this executive order which i would argue is more of a stunt than anything else. it wasn't necessary. this isn't a legal change. he could have changed the policy with a phone call. but there is a sense that it's over, that he has fixed it. yet they won't let us see the inside of the facilities where these kids are kept. we don't know how they are going to reunite kids they have spread all over the country. why there are kids from texas in new york city i have no idea. what are your concerns about what still is left to be done and how long it will take and what that means for kids in custody? >> well, you know, regarding the specific refugees, we need to

put them through a process and while they are going through that process they need to be living in conditions that are bearable, conditions that we can be proud of, that we can point to. i know it's complicated. it is logistically a nightmare. but we go through this all the time because that's who we are and we'd rather do it the hard way, but it reflects the heart of our country. now the other thing, chris, on immigration at large, we have these refugees. nothing has changed and we are not going to get immigration reform. i hear people using talking points. amnesty. well, anything is amnesty for them. other people are talking about chain immigration. chain immigration in our law is stated as family reunification. 80% of our immigration is family

reunification. so are they saying they want to go from 80 to zero? if that's the case, we will never get immigration reform. immigration reform is not building a wall. it's not cutting legal immigration by one-half. if we cut legal immigration by one-half, our illegal immigration will grow because our economy needs it. i don't care how big that wall is. we need to understand that, chris. >> mr. secretary, i appreciate your perspective on this. this is going to be an ongoing conversation. we look forward to having you back. thank you, sir. >> look forward to it. thank you. all right, look, it is hard to cover a crisis when they won't let us see what's happening in the detention centers. why is that? why are we being blocked? i'll tell you why. we need more truth and transparency. it is part of our closing argument next. getting serious .

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closing argument. first something that makes no sense. the first lady was going to visit the border to show she cares about kids in captivity even though the architect of their despair is her husband who took them from their parents. now that was odd. but then it got bizarre when she wore this to the plane. i don't care what the first lady cares, but at first i thought this message was fake. it isn't. her spokesperson said the jacket means nothing. there is no meaning. you could argue shouldn't it have said "i really do care" but whatever. then the president tweets this. i really don't care, do you, written on the back of melania's jacket refers to the fake news media. melania learned how dishonest they are and she truly no longer cares. this makes no sense at all. so the first lady's spokesperson

lied and then melania decided to invite the media to go with her even though she hates them. that makes sense? now something that makes perfect sense. melania didn't go to a facility with young kids. no toddlers, infants, preschoolers. she saw kids who can be vulnerable from 12 to 17, but not the little ones. why? wouldn't be as shocking or as troubling. she had cameras with her and around her. they don't want you to see the reality. they don't want you to see the kids crying, to get a feel for their fear and the worries of those who are overwhelmed by the situation, one the president created to make a point -- a point that has blown up in his face and forced him to do what he has never done -- to back off. but please don't be fooled. this is far from over. two points. trump says you have to arrest everybody because if you let them go they never show at

court. 75% show. programs exist to get it over 90%. those are the facts. now feelings. take a look at these kids, please. i've got some at home that look just like this, about the same ages. so do many of you. these kids aren't allowed to see their mom, their lawyer? you know they're isolated, afraid. that's the ugly truth. i can't believe we aren't better than this. kids taken from their parents, scattered across the country, crowded into tight spaces, overwhelmed staffs, the military building camps for them. this is a recipe for disaster. i'm not some cynic or fatalist. i don't want this to happen, but we both know what this is a recipe for. everybody says they don't want it to happen. but we still see the president not doing anything to get these families together. that executive order was more stunt than solution. and congress, still using this situation as leverage in a

larger policy battle. ladies and gentlemen, do your damn job. you will all be judged for this moment. that's the closing argument. thank you for joining me tonight. "cnn tonight with don lemon" starts now. good to see you, my friend. >> that's what we are going to be discussing on this program as well. who are we? are we a country that separates parents from their children at the border? this is the time for us to figure that out. i think this is a very pivotal moment. we'll discuss that. by the way, that jacket -- i was torn about that, whether i should cover it or not. but because it's a couple minutes off of the topic which is children in cages and the horrible situation happening at the border, but still, how can you -- tone deaf is the least of the phrases. >> and what the president said. >> yeah. >> he came out there, used it as