's e' ingood in the neighborhood. he. some sad news tonight. charles krauthammer, a leading conservative intellectual who'd been a columnist for the "washington post" for 30 years, has died. he was 68. krauthammer won a pulitzer prize for commentary in 1987, a

national magazine award in 1984. earlier this month he told readers that he only had a few weeks to live because of an aggressive form of cancer. "i leave this life with no regrets," he wrote. "it was a wonderful life." thanks for watching "360." time to hand it over to chris. "cuomo primetime" starts now. chris? >> thank you very much, anderson. i am chris cuomo, and welcome to primetime. my friends, do not be fooled. the crisis at the border is far from over. in fact, trump's executive order stunt may have made the situation worse. is this really about reuniting families only to lock them all up for longer? one of his biggest supporters is here and he's facing fallout of his own. corey lewandowski under fire for appearing to dismiss the plight of these innocent kids on live tv. will he apologize? we'll see. we'll also hear from an attorney with a story that will break your heart and boil your blood. he represents a mom and her three young kids. wait until you hear how long he has been trying to get to the kids.

>> and last week the attorney general was quoting scripture to justify ripping kids apart from their parents at the border. today, a reversal of biblical proportions. >> the american people don't like the idea that we're separating families. we never really intended to do that. >> what? wasn't that exactly the intention, mr. sessions? what do you say, my friends? let's get after it. we saw something we haven't seen to date in this presidency, trump caving to political pressure. but his administration has not addressed what will happen to the 2,300 kids who've been taken from their families since may. we want to bring in the former trump campaign manager who ignited all kinds of fury himself after seeming to dismiss struggles of these separated kids on live tv. corey lewandowski. it is good to have you on the show. latest news on you, that you'd been dropped by your speakers bureau. there's a lot of fallout from what you said. let me remind people about the

back and forth you had with the democratic operative. >> i read today about a 10-year-old girl with down syndrome who was taken from her mother and put in a cage and -- >> womp womp. >> did you say wah-wah to a 10-year-old with down syndrome -- >> what i said is -- >> how dare you? how dare you? >> when you -- >> how absolutely dare you, sir? >> let's get through the noise. corey? corey, tell me you did not mean into sult kids with down's syndrome or families coming across with kids like that. >> chris, of course i never meant to insult anyone with down syndrome. and who i was talking to was zack. and i understand what the perception is here. and what the media wants to talk about. but what zack was attempting to do was to use a child with down syndrome to politicize an issue. but what he didn't tell you, what you need to understand was that person, that poor child was not taken from her parent because she came to this country

illegally. that poor child was taken from her parent because her mother has been suspect of being a material witness in a child smuggling ring. and so we have to understand the difference. let me be as clear as i can be. chris, i would never degrade a child. i'm a father of four. i understand that. but we have to get past using children as political tools and come up with real solutions. >> all right, but let's get -- i hear what was going on with you and zach. but there are some bigger realities i need to you address. one involves you. one involves this administration. the first one is it seemed like you were dismissing the plight of people who were coming across the border. and to the extent that that's how people took it and they find thoochbsive, shouldn't you apologize for that if you didn't mean it? >> chris, i'm not here to offend anybody. that's not what i'm here to do. i'm here to defend the laws of country. so if people are offended then they shouldn't be. but people have to understand we're a nation of laws and those laws are very clear. those laws say look, we are the country -- the largest country

in the world that grants asylums to individuals who are being persecuted. we grant over 1 million asylums a year. the second highest country is germany. this is a country made up of immigrants. we are a country with a big heart. we are a country that wants to welcome people in. but you have to do it legally. because if we don't have laws and we don't have rules then we can't be successful. and people understand that. we're a great country. we're all immigrants, chris. but we have a different way of coming here. and it has to be done legally. and that's what's important. >> right. but justice is fairness under law. so you've got the law and then you've got how you choose to enforcement. to enforce it. and we know what happened here, corey. the president wanted to make a statement of strength. we're going to prosecute everybody who crosses the border. but he didn't plan for his own success now, did he, corey? he didn't set up the facilities, he didn't set up the processes. he just went with the politics and the message. and now we have a mixed message from the president. he put out an executive order saying i get, it i get the crying kids are bad for me. i get that we shouldn't be like

this. i'm going to fix it. but i want to play for you what he said and then what he said today. >> the american people don't like the idea that we're separating families. we never really intended to do that. >> if you are smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you. and that child may be separated from you as required by law. >> you have a 2,000-mile journey up mexico. they walk through mexico like it's walking through central park. it's ridiculous. they're drug traffickers. they are human traffickers. they're coyotes. i mean, we're getting some real beauties. mexico is doing nothing for us except taking our money and sending us drugs. >> all right. i wanted to be very clear here. because sometimes people will say like you, corey, well, that's the president, you know, he speaks, he's a little hyperbolic. i wanted to show you him and the attorney general jeff sessions. both said completely contradictory things.

sessions and trump said this was going to be now about making it okay, and they both contradicted themselves. what is the policy? >> let me read you exactly what the president said yesterday. he said it's about keeping families together while at the same time being sure that we are very powerful, very strong bord border. that's what it's about. >> but he said something else. in a cabinet meeting today. do we have the sound to play for corey? all right. he said today at the cabinet meeting this executive order, corey, is limited. and families will still be separated. so what the hell is the policy? he said he signed the executive order to make it so they wouldn't be separated. then today he said they will still be separated. >> chris, the problem is that there's a federal ruling that you know exists right now and would be appealed to the ninth circuit. and it looks like there's ten states that are challenging the executive order right now. what this president has said is that he has done everything he can within the confines of the

law which had been established to fix the problem. but this is congress's problem. remember, the democrats had super majorities in the u.s. senate with 60 votes and the majority in the house in 2006 and 8 and they chose not to fix this problem. >> who signed the 2008 law that guides today? who signed it? >> barack obama. >> wrong. 2008. it was signed by president bush. okay? i'm not big into politics blame game i think there are problems with both sides in terms of why we've been stuck with a bad system that is inhumane on many levels for many years. however, let's call the facts as they fall. bush signed it. the '97 florez agreement says you can't keep juveniles more than 20 days and you've got to treat them in the right conditions. it was a humane settlement that the doj agreed to. this isn't about the law. it's about how you choose to enforce it. bush struggled with this. obama struggled with this. trump was struggling with this but decided to do this proxy of strength in the form of

harshness and let's arrest them all. but he wasn't ready for it and he created a crisis, corey. that's the truth. >> yeah, but chris, look at what has happened under the trump administration. because our economy is so successful, unaccompanied alien children, pending cases are up to 78,000 right now, pending cases. there were 3,000 in 2009. approximately 90% of the removal orders ordered against unaccompanied children each year are for failures to appear is the problem. we have seen a 636% increase in unaccompanied aliens at ports of entry. >> right. >> since 2017, april of 2017. this has gone out of control because what has happened in the past -- >> isn't it out of control now, corey? i'm saying there is a problem. >> absolutely. it's out of control. >> i'm not saying -- we agree on the problem. here are the points we need to finesse. >> we need a solution. >> i know.

but this wasn't the solution. that's my point. that's my point, corey. what he's doing right now isn't solving it. it's making it worse. >> but chris, let me tell you what one of the solutions is. republicans and democrats have to get together. the senate can't get it done without nine democratic votes. and if they care about this issue, and i mean republicans and democrats, men and women who serve in congress, they need to fix the problem. >> republicans won't put up a bill -- other than ted cruz and even that has add-ons, nobody on the republican side, unless you throw a camera in their face and say how do you feel about separating kids from families, they're not putting out bills with any gusto to stop this current problem. they're using it as leverage to get other things in immigration done. so to me that doesn't really speak to a basic sense of humanity about this. >> this is the problem. look, i don't disagree with you. but the problem has existed for a long time. we've given congress a pass for too long for not saving it. >> but the way to get them to act -- hold on a second, corey. i hear you. but i've got to tell you, it's slipping the blame here. congress needs to act. the system has problems, period. okay.

but that doesn't justify what trump just did here. he did something that he had to know, if he has any common sense and any kind of counsel around him, was going to blow up the situation in a bad way. they had to know, corey. and he did it anyway. >> chris -- so chris, you would have rather seen additional children being separated from this parents? >> no. he's separating the kids. >> he stopped that from happening. >> he did the separations by increasing the arrests. he changed the policy from -- >> he signed an executive order yesterday. >> i know. and today he said it won't work. >> it says there's no more separation. >> i know. >> but look -- >> nothing has been followed through on. and he doesn't say how he's going to reunite the kids. what about that? >> you can only solve one problem at a time. look, there's one problem at a time to solve. >> but he created the problem, corey. >> he's stopping the separation. >> that's what i'm saying. he created the problem. he threw it on the house. he tossed a match, and he said

let me grab a hose. >> chris, we're a nation of laws and the law was very clear and there is an opportunity tone force the laws that exist. and we need to change the laws. >> then you wind up like this. >> the president said i'm going to follow the laws. let's build a border wall. as soon as you build that wall, 90% of this problem stops. >> we don't know that. >> they're not crossing illegally. >> we don't know that any wall would make that kind of difference. we glossed over one thing. hold on. we glossed over something. and then i need to hit you on one more thing. we glossed over something. why are the numbers up? because the economy's strong. what does that mean? the demand is up. what does that mean? we need jobs. in fact, we have so many jobs we don't have enough workers for them in the united states. and what's the proof of that? the flow of supply in from south of the border. but let me ask you this. for all your round-ups and all the demonizing of the people who come here for the work, how many employers have you put in jail? how many laws have you changed to even allow you to put them in jail? they're all civil laws if you own the corporation and hire

everybody illegally. but if you're one of those people who come for the job you get treated like a dog and thrown in a cage. is that right to you, corey? >> chris. chris, you know what's not right to me? people like jamil shaw and brian terry and kate steinle who are dead because illegal aliens who came across the border illegally -- >> the number of crimes of illegal people in this country as you call them are lower than the overall crime rate. so if you're worried about people being killed you have to look a lot of other places. >> one is too many. >> no, no, no. >> you tell that to the family -- >> don't give me the compassion -- >> tell that to brian terry, the police officer killed guarding this country against an illegal alien and was killed on the border. >> corey, you're going to look me in the eye and say i don't care about people who get killed by somebody whether they're undocumented or not? >> no, chris, what i'm telling you as a former police officer i can tell you this we should never have a police officer killed in the line of duty from someone who's he in the line of duty from somebody illegally in this country. >> we should never have a police officer killed in country period. >> that's right. and if you're not in this country illegally you're not doing that.

>> i'm saying there are people who don't commit as much crime and that are feeding a need for jobs sxworkers but you don't go after the people who are really who are hiring them.he people - >> this president -- >> you won't even answer the question. why don't you go after the employers? >> here's what the president said. chris, here's what this president said. give me the money for the wall and the people that are in this country through no fault of their own that came as children, we will make them citizens, we will give them a path. he's offered that and this congress has said no. >> that's not true. >> it is absolutely true. >> they gave him the wall for daca and he wanted chain migration and he wanted to change the visa lottery. you know that's the truth. don't twist it. >> they never gave him money for the wall. >> they gave him 25 billion for the wall and daca and he said i want the other things too. that's what happened. >> there is no money for the wall. >> don't rewrite history. >> they gave him a down payment on the wall. chris, they gave him a down payment for the wall. he's asking for the money for the wall. and the democrats. >> he got money for the wall. that's how it works. >> he didn't get $25 billion for the wall. >> he got $25 billion over a certain number of years.

>> chris, the congress funds one year at a time is what they fund. >> facts are friends. so you won't talk about why you won't go after employers. >> it is a fact. >> you won't even mention you won't go after employers. why not? why don't you -- >> of course you have to go after employers. look, why don't we force e-verify? absolutely. if employers are employing illegal aliens to do things illegally, they should be held accountable. >> look what just happened in ohio. corey. look what just happened in ohio -- >> when those employers are held accountable guess what they will do. employers who want to hire illegals need to be held accountable. and that means -- >> they're not, though. they're not. >> e-verify. why aren't we using that? >> they are using it. look what happened in ohio. >> enforce the laws. >> look what just happened in ohio. >> what laws do you want to enforce? you tell me which laws -- >> i think you enforce all of your laws but it's about discretion of how you enforce them fairly. >> no, you only want to enforce the ones that are convenient. >> come on. >> you don't want tone force all the laws. >> how is this convenient?

>> you just said you want to enforce all the laws. the law on the book says if you come to this country illegally you'll be separated. >> that's not what it says. >> you wnt want tone force select laws. >> that's not what the law says. >> it does say that. >> and what i'm saying -- >> it absolutely says that. >> it does not. it says if you come across the border it is a crime. if you come over with children, you're not allowed to keep children in the condition that's you keep adults. that's on you to come up with the right procedure. >> and you will be separated -- it says you will be separated -- >> you arrested a big bunch of people. you had no plan for how to take care of them, no plan for what to do with the kids under the law and no way to deal with it quickly. now you're asking the courts for more time. that's the solution? let me lock up kids for longer? >> why should the united states have different laws than every other country? they want a merit-based system and i'm for that. let's do exactly -- >> why don't you lock up some employers, people who have faith you're fair-handed in this and you're not just demonizing people coming over looking for a job? and make them all ms-13 and

killers. >> i've already agreed with you, chris. let's implement e-verify. >> but i'm saying they don't do that. they're putting kids in cages but in ohio they catch a guy with 100 illegal laborers in his company and he gets a fine. that's fair? >> chris, we caught a guy in california who killed kate steinle and he got off. we caught a guy in california who'd been deported five times, came, in killed a woman on a pier in california -- >> but he got off because of a trial in which they didn't find him guilty of the charges. >> okay. go ask kate's father, who was there, if he killed her or not. >> of course you feel for the victims. i'm just telling you that was the law. that was the process. they had a trial. that is what they found. justice doesn't always make everybody happy. >> but he shouldn't have been here. he had been deported five times. >> i get it. he should have never been here. and that's why people are angry because it should have never happened because he never should have been here. that doesn't mean all people who come illegally are like him. let me end on this. >> i don't agree. >> that's fine. >> chris, i don't disagree with

you. i don't disagree that everyone is not like that animal who killed kate steinle. but the point is this. there is a way to come to this country legally. >> absolutely. >> we accept more immigrants than any other country in the world. so if you want asylum there is a process to do that. if you don't want to have your children separated -- >> except you're separating them in those situations too. the asylum people are getting treated like everybody else. the claim isn't getting processed quickly and you didn't plan it out. >> that's not true. >> i want to ask you this. last question. will you admit that the way this was done was a mistake? >> you mean implementing the law, following the law? look, it is a mistake to -- >> the way you did it here. the president had to admit it by signing this executive order, whatever it means or doesn't mean. will you admit that this was a mistake? can you own it? >> i'll admit this very clearly. nobody wants to see their children separated from their parents. >> but then you shouldn't have started doing it. >> this is what happens when you

have laws and break the laws. >> this is how you chose tone force that law. >> don't rob a bank with your children. chris, if you rob a bank with your children, guess what -- >> it's a felony. it's not a misdemeanor for crossing a border. you've shown intent to hurt people. you've shown an intent to deprive people of their property. but this is just crossing a border. >> what if you did this in a different country? if you went to any other country in the world and crossed their border illegally would you expect to be able to stay with their children? >> germany has a much more open -- you say their crime went up. the opposite is true. and their illegal entries are down 79%. trump can't get his facts straight. he should get the feelings right. >> germany only accepts 198,300 people. they only accept 198,300 people in germany. that's a fact. we take 1.2 million in asylum a year. >> but that's about demand. that's a longer conversation. i appreciate you covering some of the bases. i appreciate you making it clear to the audience you weren't intending to offend people with what you said on tv. that's important for people to hear. we could disagree but we can't be without decency. so corey, thank you for coming

on and making the case. corey lewandowski. all right. the trump administration says it reversed course on separating families. corey just made that case to you. but is it true? it depends on which donald trump you want to believe. but for all we know, this is the one thing we have for sure. this is a crisis. that's what it is. and it is far from over. in fact, we will show you why the worst may lie ahead. ♪ a hotel can make or break a trip. and at expedia, we don't think you should be rushed into booking one. that's why we created expedia's add-on advantage. now after booking your flight, you unlock discounts on select hotels right until the day you leave. ♪ add-on advantage. discounted hotel rates when you add on to your trip.

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all right. facts first. this executive order is neither a definitive action by the executive nor is it an order to make any real change. so what was it? it was a stunt. like a legal situation when it's never been one. the law is clear. this is about how you choose to enforce it. why are we having this big problem now if the laws haven't changed? because the policy did. president trump could have stopped all of this with a phone call. the executive order was not necessary. it may not even be operative. the order said it is meant to, quote, "maintain family unity." okay? that's what he said. so, no separation. but then today, the president said the order is limited and families will still be separated. so which trump is it? the most glaring omission from the order? how do you reunitee the 2,300 kids torn from their parents spread all over the country? the administration hasn't provided any details on the plan. now, why is that? is it because all the agencies

are confused about what to do now because this has been so haphazard or is it that the president does not intend to expedite reunification? we don't know. many of these kids, as i said, are hundreds of thousands of miles away. so this idea of reuniting them, it's getting harder, not easier. we already know the government has trouble tracking kids in this situation. and we know the onus is still put on the parents, who are often broke and uneducated migrants to find their own kids. in fact, the administration is now asking the court -- this is where it gets messy with questions, which is why we designed it this way. they're asking the court how long can we keep them? can we keep them longer? in direct violation of law. legally dubious at a minimum. but the idea of we want to keep them in captivity longer? how is that about making this better? and even if families do get reunited, where will we keep them? these ever-swelling ranks of

families. the order instructs federal agencies, particularly the defense department, to prepare facilities to house the potentially thousands of families that will be detained. the hhs has reportedly told the military to prepare for up to 20,000 unaccompanied minors on bases in the coming months. so they're going to round up more people and then figure out where to put them. is that strength or is that stupidity? to quote a jacket that is in the news, do they really care? now i know that my guests want to get in on this. let's bring them in for the great debate. we've got van jones and david urban. so i put it out there for you, david. you're shaking your head. i'm afraid it's going to fall off. what is it that has you so upset? make the case that this situation is okay. >> no, it's not okay. it's a terrible situation, chris. you just outlined on your white board there, your massive white board, is a refugee crisis in america. the united states of america is facing a refugee crisis from

three countries -- el salvador, guatemala, and honduras. they're flooding across the border in record numbers. as corey pointed out earlier, the united states for the first time has granted asylum to more refugees than any other country in the world. that's saying something. what i think needs to happen is the united states needs to take a look at the closest $70 million in grants to the organization of american states, right? oas has 21 members, supposed to be protecting democracy and human rights in the americas. that's central america as well. and they're sitting on their hands doing nothing. the u.n. commission on refugees, sitting on their hands, doing nothing. it's a big deal across the rest of the world. >> what does that have to do with how you treat them? >> chris, this is what i'm saying. it is a problem. we should be addressing -- >> but you're creating the problem. >> i'm not creating the problem. the problem is created by the highest murder rate in the world. hold on. in el salvador. so if you make their home country safe, chris, if folks aren't terrified for their lives

in guatemala, el salvador, the only other place that's more violent on the planet is syria. el salvador has the highest murder rate per capita in the world. >> i hear you about the source -- >> why aren't we talking about those things? >> i think we are but van -- >> why isn't the oas and the u.n. -- >> i hear you. the reason we're not talking about it primarily is because it is a distraction from the issue of how we are dealing with the people who come across our border. van jones? the source of the problem is not america. it's where these people are coming from. fair enough. but the issue of how do we deal with the people who come here from these terrible places. mr. urban is making a case in desperation -- >> thank you, mr. cuomo. >> i'm treating you with respect. earn it. what is your side of this? >> well, there is a minor issue and a major issue. the minor issue is there is a refugee crisis and if we weren't doing dumb stuff in the united states we would be able to

address what's happening there. but the major crisis is there is a moral crisis in america. we have seen a moral collapse. ever since trump came down that escalator three years ago, he came down, he kept going down and down and down and he's pulled the moral fabric of the country down with him. the good news is that there was a bipartisan across every racial group, every state, moral revolt and rebellion against the trump attempt to reset the moral standard of this country so low, we would have prison camps for babies. so that's where we are. the reality is to go forward now. if this president were serious, he would have done -- the first thing he would have done, i am appointing a czar of family reunification. that person is going to be in the white house. they're going to have staff. they're going to have interagency power. they're going to report to me. they've got 30 days to report back to me where every one of these babies -- none of that happened. so when i saw this executive order, i was happy because i felt, well, listen, the people spoke and the president

responded. the problem is that it looks like it was a stunt. and my question -- >> no. come on. >> my question to anybody watching this is who is responsible in the white house to find these babies and why don't you know? >> so, van, to answer your question, chris, it is a -- you know, this is a logistical issue. if the united states government can't track 2,000 folks -- i don't know if that's the number, if they don't know where 2,000 parents and kids are. i don't know that that's the full number. but let's assume it's the full 2,000. i'm pretty certain that the department of justice and department of homeland security, department of health and human services can all work together as van is saying to locate 2,000 folks. it's not -- listen, i've heard democrats on the other side of the aisle say this is not an insurmountable tastask. it can be done. it will be done. i think it should be done, obviously. but to your point earlier, chris, and your white board, it's about selective enforcement of the law. folks can come to our country -- as corey outlined earlier, we take more immigrants than

anybody. they show up at a port of entry. that's the law. you show up at the port of entry. you claim asylum. you get in the door. you can't show up in the middle of the desert. it's against the law. >> the problem that we have -- >> all right, dave, back to van. >> the problem that we have is that people who were doing it the way that you said, people who were not breaking our law, but who were following our law wound up in the exact same situation and their babies were taken too. hey, listen, we have a major problem now because inside that building, inside the white house there seems to be a tug of war, some kind of moral tug of war between people like stephen miller, who has a very bad history and track record when it comes to racism, when it comes to being associated with very, very nasty elements, who seems to be driving an agenda here that is not about the law. the law didn't change. the implementation changed. so that means that there is a decision that was made to get hard, to get tough, to crack down. >> to enforce the law. >> hold on. no. and then they wouldn't own the fact that they were doing it for deterrent purposes. they want to blame democrats. you want to blame the

organization of american states, which i've never even really heard of, don't know where they are. >> right on constitution avenue, van. >> you want to blame everybody but president trump for president trump's policies. and that's not good. >> van, so do you -- what is your solution of enforcement of border laws? >> i've got a solution. here's a solution. i've been talking to grassroots experts across the country. here's the deal. we do want to make sure that people who come here have their claims processed and that they don't just run off into the country and we don't know where they are. it's not good to separate families and put babies in prisons by themselves. it's also not good to lock up whole families when you don't have to. >> you still didn't tell me your policy. >> i'm getting there. i'm getting there. there's a program called community accompaniment. they actually have had a 96% success rate of placing people with american families and those families get them to court. it's humane. the families stay together. it is 96% effective. which is better than any other program. why aren't we doing stuff like that? >> van, i don't disagree.

look, there's plenty of ways. chris, you know this from being a lawyer. there are plenty of ways that people who are out on parole or probation check in with their parole officers through verification -- >> that's a better way. >> phone cards. listen, you can put ankle bracelets. i'm saying take some of that $67 million you're spending on an organization that's doing nothing to affect the actual underlying crisis -- >> here's the thing. the oas money you want to reallocate it. but you're ignoring the crisis. okay? with all due respect. you're ignoring -- you asked him to give you a solution. he gave you a damn good one that already exists. but you guys knew about that solution but you ignored it. why? it doesn't meet the mandate. you wanted to show that you are harsh and you will punish the people who come across. you just didn't prepare for your own success. you didn't prepare with all these people and all these kids and how angry people would get when they started hearing those kids crying. and that's why trump caved. own it. >> listen, i will agree, chris.

that when you enforce the law that no one has done to date -- >> it's how you enforce it. >> chris, when you enforce the law. you can either choose to take people who cross the border illegally and prosecute them or not. there's catch and release or there's not. >> but if you're going to prosecute them, shouldn't you have -- >> it's your choice. >> van jones, if you're going to prosecute the law, wouldn't you have thought of how you're going to deal with the overflow, where you're going to keep them, how you keep consistent with you constitution and the soul of your country? wouldn't you have thought about that first? >> sure. the problem is that the white house is being run a little bit like a reality television show. let's try this. let's try that. let's see what the audience reaction is. and i'm very afraid to make an admission here. i think had it not been for a couple of photographs and a little bit of sound of babies crying, this might have gone on. it's still going on. but this may have gone on even more. >> i don't even think we've seen the worst of it, by the way. >> van. >> the president spent more time

today trying to make sense of his wife's jacket than he did of how to get these families back together. >> do you remember this occurred in the obama administration, van, the outrage, the lawsuits from the aclu? >> yes. >> so, this isn't something that's new. >> it doesn't make it okay either, though, does it? >> i'm not saying it's okay. >> you kind of are. you're kind of saying it happened then, too you weren't as upset then. we were upset. >> no, you weren't. >> of course we were. we went down to the border and went crazy about it. i did a whole documentary about how they keep people on the border. you guys, you have to own the facts. you guys decided to do this. you're trying to make it okay because someone else had a similar situation and you have the president today talking about his wife's jacket, putting more thought into how to blame the media. what about that one, dave? do you believe that that jacket was about her hating the media? do you believe that or do you believe the president is lying again? >> no, chris listen, i -- >> come on. >> no, i -- >> come on, dave. >> who would it be about, chris? what's she wearing the jacket -- >> i don't know. but the idea that it's about us, when she invited the media with

her to go into the places makes no sense. and her own spokesperson said it wasn't about that. >> right. it's a jacket. >> crazy land. >> it's a jacket. >> hey, listen, i just think -- >> van, last word. >> listen, i think maybe she should have worn a different jacket. i do think that you've got to give some kudos to the fact that she did stand up to her own husband. she did tweet about it. she did go down there. listen, maybe she should wear something different. but i wish more people in her position would stick up for these kids. where are these babies? who's responsible for finding them? we cannot get away from that. don't let the jacket become the issue. the issue is where are these babies? >> they're safe in hhs. >> you don't know that. >> they are not safe. >> where are they? on the street? >> i've talked to people who have had these babies returned and these babies come back traumatized. they feel like they're adopting their own kid. because the kid has been treated badly. they've been totally terrified. this is not -- don't act like they're safe -- >> it's a horrific situation. it's a terrible situation.

>> you just said they're safe. >> don't say they're safe and sound. >> no. but it's not like they're laying on the street, van. >> that's not the only alternative. laying on the street isn't the -- >> i'm not saying it's the only alternative. i agree with van. let's use technology to make it a better system. >> you should have thought it through beyond -- last word. we have to wrap it up. go ahead, van. >> i had this role in the white house. i was a czar, so-called. you have some one person who's responsible. you give them interagency authority. you give them a deadline. you get it done. if that does not happen, people should be in the streets about this. find these babies. find the babies. that's all. >> i have great confidence in general kelly and others in the white house that -- >> let's see. >> appoint somebody. >> general kelly said he wanted to do this and do it for deterrent effect. now let's see where we are. dave urban. they should give you the job. you should be the reunification czar. but you still have to come on the show. van jones, thank you very much. appreciate you making the case. we're going to be right back with a republican who once warned immigrants about the consequences of voting for president trump.

he was a member of president bush's cabinet. you have to remember it's been a month since these kids, three that we're showing you right now -- imagine these kids. i've got ones just like this at home. many of you do as well. they haven't seen their mother in a month. their mother's lawyer hasn't even been able to get them yet. a look at the families that are caught in this complex web, stretching all over the damn country. next. where are mom and dad? 'saved money on motorcycle insurance with geico! goin' up the country. love mom and dad' i'm takin' a nap. dude, you just woke up! ♪ ♪ i'm goin' up the country, baby don't you wanna go? ♪ ♪ i'm goin' up the country, baby don't you wanna go? ♪ geico motorcycle, great rates for great rides.

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i want to show you what a

"washington post" reporter tweeted just over an hour ago. take a look at this. "it's shockingly difficult for immigration attorneys to locate children separated from their parents at the border. today, i spoke to lawyers who represent more than 400 parents. they have located two children." all right? this is about families, people waiting for answers right now as they watch this show. that includes a mother detained in arizona. her three kids, 5, 8 and 10, okay? they're reportedly in new york. i say reportedly because our next guest is a lawyer working for that family. his name is jose javier orachena. he is here. thank you very much, counsel. >> thank you. >> i have to say reportedly because you can't be 100% sure. is that true? >> that's true. the family contacted our office, hiring us to help them, first to get a bond for the mother who is currently in eloy, arizona. also they asked us, because we're local -- the family, extended family is in north

carolina. they asked us to go and inquire about the children, their safety, their health, and i've gone to the foster center where they're allegedly held. i say allegedly because i have spoken to a social worker. she confirmed that the three children are there. and when i asked for more details, what are they doing? what do they eat? where do they sleep? are they together? the siblings. i can't get a straight answer. >> can you see them? >> no. >> even though you represent them as counsel? >> even though i represent them i have been unable to see them. they are in my backyard and i cannot see them. i understand the precautions with the -- they're minor children. and i'm assuming that they don't want anybody coming in. but vet me. allow me to see my clients. allow me to relay information to the family in north carolina. allow me to facilitate whatever is needed to allow the kids to be released to the family in north carolina while a mother is fighting her case for asylum.

>> have they said anything to you about reunification? >> my client's family in north carolina have told me that the cayuga center has given them a list of requirements. and i understand those -- >> what does that mean? requirements about what? >> requirements that they need in order to assure that these kids are going to a safe, loving home. and i applaud them for doing that. i honestly do. but these are uneducated clients of mine in north carolina. they may not know what is needed. i'm here to help them facilitate. >> but you can't help them because you can't get to the kids and you can't coordinate information because you're not getting access. ? every time i ask for detailed information i am referred to a supervisor. actually, i'm told that a supervisor will contact me. four weeks i haven't been able to -- >> one month, you haven't seen a 5-year-old kid? >> in one month i haven't seen a 5-year-old kid, a 10-year-old kid, an 8-year-old kid, a supervisor. i haven't had a sit-down -- >> has the mother been able to? >> the mother according to the social worker has contact with her children. i can only imagine the lies the mother has to tell these children in order to make sure

that they're happy. you know, i'm just on vacation, i'll be there soon. >> what does the mom tell you about what she knows about the kids? >> because the mother is detained i have limited access to her. >> you can't get to her either? >> well, at this point she has a bond hearing set for june 29th. i've asked to appear telephonically. if i get word i can appear telephonically i will do so. if i don't get word by the 28th, i have to buy an emergency ticket to fly out to eloy, arizona and be with mother at the hearing on the 29th. >> you said it's an asylum case. >> yes. >> do you believe it's a legit asylum case? >> absolutely. >> or someone coming here for an opportunity? >> absolutely a legitimate asylum case. a mother would not take and put her children through the dangers that she -- these children face. >> what do you know about her situation that makes it legit? >> i know from the family of the violence she's facing in guatemala. anybody can verify, go out to guatemala and see the violence they're facing on a daily basis. not only the violence, the starvation, the hunger, the violence. this is why asylum applications

are made for. let us -- asylum application. give us due process. allow the children to meet with the lawyer that's been hired to represent them, advocate for them. that's all i'm asking. >> why didn't they go to the legitimate port of entry? >> they had no other opportunity. they went to the port of entry according to the mother and they were not allowed through. they had no other opportunity. it was either go back home and face harm, great bodily harm, or cross the border and surrender. >> i've told you before and i'm going to tell you now on tv, you are fighting a fight that we know that many lawyers are fighting for hundreds of clients at least. as you go through the paces, you will be welcome back on this show to tell us what's going on because it will be an example of what so many are dealing with. and i know you represent the country. i know that's an army pin on your lapel. i know you're a proud american and i know you're not proud of this situation. we will keep up with you and follow this story. i promise. >> thank you very much for the opportunity, and i hope that the agency allows me to see my

clients. >> all right. counsel, thank you very much. there is still no answer on what's going to happen not just with these kids, as beautiful as they are. not to discount them. but they're one of this huge group. 2,000 kids are scattered all over the country. and any plan to actually fix the system is stuck in partisan mud. everybody says they care, but nobody is doing their damn job. so let's talk to a man who knows both the personal side of this and the policy side. joining us now is the commerce secretary under president george w. bush, carlos gutierrez. mr. secretary, thank you for joining us. >> thank you, chris. pleasure. >> i want to get your reaction to something the president said today about the kinds of people that are crossing the border. please listen. >> they encourage people, frankly, to walk through mexico and go into the united states because they're drug traffickers. they're human traffickers, they're coyotes. i mean, we're getting some real

beauties. mexico is doing nothing for us except taking our money and sending us drugs. >> your reaction? >> well, i think it's an amazing exaggeration. it is misleading. it is fear mongering. it makes it sound as if though most immigrants who cross the borders are either drug dealers or criminals. and that is absolutely false. i wish someone would use numbers, chris, and just put this thing to rest. this is just rhetoric that is -- incites hatred and incites xenophobia and incites false nationalism. i think it's very, very regretful. >> now, the president says it is none of those things. he makes the case that he has the biggest heart in the world. he's just giving you the facts that the democrats and

sympathizers like you want to hide from. your reaction to that? >> let's see the facts. let's talk numbers. our unemployment is 3.8%, a little over 3.8%. the unemployment among undocumented workers is less than 3.8. why? because there are jobs that are open. the reason we have illegal immigration is because our legal immigration system doesn't work. our economy needs the workers. that's the part that people don't understand or don't want to understand. so this part of the bill that talked about cutting in half the legal immigration, that would be devastating for our economy. our economy grows in two ways. one is the number of workers and the productivity of the workers. our working age population isn't growing fast enough. and our productivity is close to

nothing. so we need immigration simply to grow. immigration is a, an economic strategy. it is an economic policy. and that is what i am so shocked that it is republicans who don't understand that. we are supposed to be the party of prosperity. if you can not have prosperity without it. because of this executive order which i would argue is more of a stunt than anything else, it wasn't necessary. you could have changed the policy with a phone call. there's a sense that it is over. that he has fixed it. that they won't let us see the insides of the facilities. we don't know how they'll reunite kids that they've spread all over the country. why there are kids from texas to new york city, i have no idea. what are your concerns about how long it will take and what that means for kids in custody?

>> regarding the specific refugees, we need to put them through a process and while they are going through that process, they need to be living in conditions that are bearable. that we can be proud of. that we can point to. i know it's complicated. it is logistically a nightmare. but we go through this all the time because that's who we are and we'd rather do it the hard way, but it reflects the heart of our country. now the other thing, chris, on immigration at large, we have these refugees. nothing has changed and we are not going to get immigration reform. i hear people using talking points. amnesty. well, anything is amnesty for them. other people are talking about chain immigration.

chain immigration in our law is stated as family reunification. 80% of our immigration is family reunification. so are they saying they want to go from 80 to zero? if that's the case, we will never get immigration reform. immigration reform is not building a wall. it's not cutting legal immigration by one-half. if we cut legal immigration by one-half, our illegal immigration will grow because our economy needs it. i don't care how big that wall is. we need to understand that, chris. >> mr. secretary, i appreciate your perspective on this. this is going to be an ongoing conversation. we look forward to having you back. thank you, sir. >> look forward to it. thank you. all right, look, it is hard to cover a crisis when they won't let us see what's happening in the detention centers. why is that? why are we being blocked? i'll tell you why. we need more truth and transparency. it is part of our closing

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cares about kids in captivity even though the architect of their despair is her husband who took them from their parents. now that was odd. but then it got bizarre when she wore this to the plane. i don't care what the first lady wears, but at first i thought this message was fake. it isn't. her spokesperson said the jacket means nothing. there is no meaning. you could argue shouldn't it have said "i really do care" but whatever. then the president tweets this. i really don't care, do you, written on the back of melania's jacket refers to the fake news media. melania learned how dishonest they are and she truly no longer cares. this makes no sense at all. so the first lady's spokesperson lied and then melania decided to invite the media to go with her even though she hates them. that makes sense? now something that makes perfect

sense. melania didn't go to a facility with young kids. no toddlers, infants, preschoolers. she saw kids who can be vulnerable from 12 to 17, but not the little ones. why? wouldn't be as shocking or as troubling. she had cameras with her and around her. they don't want you to see the reality. they don't want you to see the kids crying, to get a feel for their fear and the worries of those who are overwhelmed by the situation, one the president created to make a point -- a point that has blown up in his face and forced him to do what he has never done -- to back off. but please don't be fooled. this is far from over. two points. trump says you have to arrest everybody because if you let them go they never show at court. 75% show. programs exist to get it over 90%. those are the facts. now feelings. take a look at these kids, please.

i've got some at home that look just like this, about the same ages. so do many of you. these kids aren't allowed to see their mom, their lawyer? you know they're isolated, afraid. that's the ugly truth. i can't believe we aren't better than this. kids taken from their parents, scattered across the country, crowded into tight spaces, overwhelmed staffs, the military building camps for them. this is a recipe for disaster. i'm not some cynic or fatalist. i don't want this to happen, but we both know what this is a recipe for. everybody says they don't want it to happen. but we still see the president not doing anything to get these families together. that executive order was more stunt than solution. and congress, still using this situation as leverage in a larger policy battle. ladies and gentlemen, do your damn job. you will all be judged for this moment.