chris. >> thank you. i am chris cuomo and we have a prime time exclusive tonight. a claim that goes to the truth whaf the president knew and when he knew about an event that is central to the special counsel's russia investigation. let's get after it. we have cnn political analyst carl bernstein and jim sciutto our chief national correspondent for cnn. what do we know? >> that michael cohen claims that then candidate donald trump knew in advance about the june 2016 meeting in trump tower in which russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on h hillary clinton. crucially they say michael cohen is willing to make the assertion to special counsel robert mueller. he says he was present when trump was informed of the russian offer informed by donald trump junior about that offer by cohen's kt trump approved going

ahead with the meeting with russians. i must note that michael cohen does not have audio to corroborate his claim. a source familiar said he did not testify that trump had advance knowledge. michael cohen claims were not mentioned as well in separate reports in reports democrats and on the house intelligence committee. >> going back through the transcript did they even ask him about it. so now there is a different state of play. let's bring in carl. timing why now? >> because michael cohen is going around saying he has information that shows that the president had foreknowledge of this event as well as foreknowledge of other things. that cohen now is it aware of. and we know cohen is quote flipping, attempting to flip on the united states of the united states. he's also shopping for a get out of jail card. if this information is true and accurate, and if it can be

nailed down in testimony by others, it's very, very significant. because the president has denied any foreknowledge of this event. and this meeting goes to the question of intent to collude. because, indeed, his son in that meeting said in a communication that he was willing to get information. i love it he said, from the russians at this meeting. >> all right. so before we get into the implications too deeply. let's get into the balancing part of this. jim, what are you hearing from the president's side on this? >> okay. so we reached out to a number of people. allen the attorney for donald trump junior he tells cnn the following and i'm quoting donald trump junior has been professional an and responsible throughout the mueller and congressional investigations. we have very confident of the accuracy and reliability of the information that has been provided by mr. trump junior and on his behalf. i should say contacted by cnn

one of cohen's attorney lanny davis he declined to comment. and of course i know you are speaking to rudy giuliani and i'll leave his response to you. >> thank you for mentioning that. we have rudy giuliani the president's lawyer was already scheduled to be on the show tonight. he's in the green room. he's listening to the reporting. and then he will get a full and complete opportunity to make his case to the audience. so in talking about this, interesting in that statement, jim, nothing, and carl, about rebutting the specific allegation from cohen about the meeting and what he says he heard. now, let's get into the context a little bit. let's listen to what the president himself told "the new york times" about whether he knew about this trump tower meeting. >> i didn't look at it very closely, to be honest with you. i just heard there was an email requesting a meeting or something, yeah, requesting a meeting, that they have information on hillary clinton. and i said, i mean, that's

dangerous political stuff. >> did you know the time they had to meet? >> no, i didn't know anything about the meeting. but it must have been an unimportant meeting because no one told me about it. >> nobody told you? >> no, i didn't know. it's a very unimportant, sounded like it. >> that's not the only denial we heard from the president or his team about not knowing about the meeting. right. >> that's right. that's been a consistent story for nearly a year now. one claimed that stayed consistent that trump had no knowledge beforehand. was not told about it afterwards. and he insists he learned about it one year later when "the new york times" first came to him with that information. those denials we should note repeated not just by trump, his lawyer, trump junior son and his attorney who we reached out tonight as well as president secretary sarah sanders. anthem denying they had

contemporaneous knowledge of that meeting. we did count on 15 occasions that denial coming. >> so we have a whole litany about them what it is. but that's the record to this point. so if cohen goes through with this, the main concern is going to be credibility, right. >> exactly. >> because the sourcing is, correct me if i'm wrong, i don't have a tape, i don't have a document, i don't have anything that shows it's more than my word. how good is his word? >> we don't know. and that is what mueller and the other prosecutors in the southern district of new york assuming they will get a chance to talk to mr. cohen, will have to determine. i think we have to look at this as part of a larger picture. mr. cohen is very approximate to important things around donald trump. he is claiming that he knows many things, including this crucial event and what transpired before it. and this was part of it. and that the president, then a candidate, knew of it in

advance. presumably, mueller may already know about what the president's knowledge of this is or is not. this is part of a big matrix. >> and cohen suggests other people were in the room during the meeting that he was at, so maybe mueller has had access to that. >> again, we know almost nothing out of the mueller investigation about what state his investigation is at except that he is looking at obstruction of justice. he is looking at questions of collusion. he is looking at what the president did, what the russians did. this meeting goes to the heart of it. and if indeed michael cohen can provide some good evidence backed up by others that the president knew of this in advance, it could be very damaging to the president. but. >> or more damaging to his son? not just throwing a bomb at the president. >> again, it would appear that if things are as mr. cohen is

saying, that some people have lied. we have seen a lot of lies. >> but lying to me or you is one thing. the reason i bring up donald trump junior is only because of what michael cohen said. but donald trump junior has testified before congress. >> yes, he has. >> closed session, not public. >> correct. >> but we have a transcript of t put up the transcript of it. did you go up and talk to your father about it? no, i wouldn't have wasted his time with it. i never discussed it with him at all. and he said this, to shawn hannity. >> do you tell your father anything about this? >> no. it was such a nothing. there was nothing to tell. i wouldn't have even remembered it until you start scouring through the stuff. it was literally a wasted 20 minutes which was a shame. >> i think what we have to look at are two things. we do know donald trump senior has lied throughout this investigation. that many, many things he has said turn out to be untrue.

what we also know is that mr. cohen, up until this point, does not have a great record of credibility either. he is now claiming that he is ready to provide everything he knows, the government already has his devices, they have his iphone, they have his computer disks, and he says that he is willing to tell to the special prosecutor everything that he knows in exchange for some kind of leniency or immunity from prosecution. it is a high stakes poker game going on here including cohen, involving the press, involving the president of the united states. we'll see where it goes. but it is very, very important that for the first time michael cohen, who has been approximate to the president of the united states for many years and knows many of his secrets, is saying i want to spill those secrets,

especially this one, in exchange for my perhaps being treated leniently. >> jim, just for context on what is happening here strategically. this is a big change for cohen by disposition of his legal team. they had been saying flip on what, there are no charges. what do we have to offer up? we haven't done anything wrong. a move like this suggests an insurance policy, doesn't it? >> it does. i mean, it certainly suggests as well, an enormous amount of legal pressure that michael cohen is under. and that is something that the president's lawyers and advocates will draw attention to. but one consistent thing you hear from mr. michael cohen's lawyers and representatives is that he went through a change. that now he wants to set the record straight. that now he is choosing country over donald trump. and that is what they are offering as an explanation for his change intact. >> well, there is it an obvious parallel that suggests itself that may or may not be relevant,

that is in watergate to john dean, who did a similar thing. he was part of a conspiracy. we don't know that cohen and the president engaged in a conspiracy, but that's what some people are alleging. and then dean decided alt a certain point he wanted immunity, one. and, two, he would tell in his view a patriotic act what he knew. if michael cohen is doing something of the same thing, it could be very, very consequential. we now are going to find out as this goes along what facts he knows, what facts he doesn't, and special prosecutor will deal with the question of his truthfulness, validity, and whether or not he wants to make a deal with cohen. he may not want to make a deal with cohen because he might have more evidence from elsewhere and doesn't need what cohen has. >> that is a possibility. we are told this is cohens team

going to mueller. >> that's right. >> and you will hear rudy giuliani make this point for the president. you only know what you can show when it comes to matters of law. and that is the new bar. this is a big allegation from michael cohen. thank you, carl bernstein. thank you jim sciutto for bringing us to chris cuomo prime time. what about president's side? rudy giuliani is here next. -omar, look. [ thunder rumbles ] omar, check this out. uh, yeah, i was calling to see if you do laser hair removal. for men. notice that my hips are off the ground. [ engine revving ] and then, i'm gonna pike my hips back into downward dog. [ rhythmic tapping ]

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all right. sources with knowledge of the situation tell cnn the president's former lawyer, michael cohen says he may tell robert mueller the president knew about that trump tower meeting with the possible russian agent that he supported it, and that he, therefore, lied about what he knew thereafter. how does this affect what's going on with the probe? and how does it mesh with what we learned from the cohen tapes earlier this week? everybody has a perspective of this. we have former new york city mayor, current counsel to the president, rudy giuliani with us tonight. >> thanks, chris. >> thank you for taking the opportunity. what is your response to the head line? you did not look very impressed in the green room.

>> no, i expected something like this from michael cohen. he's been lying all week for years. tape lies back from him year and a half ago, including his fooling people, hiding tape recordings, telling them they weren't recorded, lying to their face, breaking faith with them, taping his client which is a disbarable offense. i don't see how he has any credibility. this is basically if you had a trial, there won't be a trial, which lie do you want to pick? pick the first lie or first lie or maybe some new lie? there is nobody that i know that knows him that hasn't warned me that if he's backed up against the wall he'll lie like crazy because he's lied all his life. >> so the flip on this is this, to do that to me, to tell me a lie, that's the media, what's the recommend con pen-- recompe.

but he goes into the meeting, and he says according to the reporting there were other people in the room. so this is something that bob mueller should be able to figure out, roo it? >> the question isn't what happened in the room. the question is what did the president know and when did he know it. so it would have to be people in the room with the president that can corroborate cohen. >> right. >> which won't be because it didn't happen. then becomes the credibility between two or three witnesses who say one thing and cohen who says another. >> assuming they say different things. >> i'm pretty comfortable about that. having had had a chance to look at all of it, but i remember it very well. there is no doubt in my mind that he's just not credible. i would not accept him as a witness as a prosecutor. if mueller has any other kind of case, this is the kind of witness that can really destroy your whole case. because any finder of fact loses confidence in the case when you rely on a guy like this. when you rely on a guy where before you are finished with him

you'll have such a string of lies, you just can't trust him. and you put him in this kind of pressure, and what's history been? lying under appreciate sure. >> one step sideways for a second then we'll back into the tapes thn i know you have responses prepared. the president says that he has an eye for talent and he always has the best people around him. i'm sure you won't disagree with that where you are involved. he put his trust in this man for years. he entrusted him with his most sensitive matters and say i gave him full discretion i didn't need to know. fundamental aspect of the presz's narrative what happened with the women. >> right. >> why did he have somebody so close to him if the guy is so incredible? >> that's part of the human condition. we all make mistakes about people who turn out to be disloyal. benedict arnold was disloyal to washington the president. anybody can? brutus and caesar. you can go back to classical greek literature you think you

trust and they turn out to be scandals. i saw the president when he first found out he had been taped and the president was kbleetsly shocked. >> i believe that. >> he wasn't angry. you know president trump can get angry sometimes. he was disappointed. almost like a father who has been betrayed by his son and very moving for jay and me. >> but he obviously believed that michael cohen was a man of good character who he could depend on and who told him the truth? >> up until a few days ago, yeah, i think he did. he had no reason to distrust michael. he didn't select michael for government. you know michael was bitter about that. that is going to be on tapes. without getting into the details of that. so and he's very jealous and bitter about the kids. which also comes across on the tapes. so you have a whole scenario here that's really really sick. and i agree with you the president didn't know. but gosh i've been fooled by people. totally fooled. and i'm pretty good judge of

character and i've prosecuted people but i've been fooled. >> if it's true, if cohen is telling the truth, i was there and heard the son, this is what i had, the president or then candidate trump said great let me know and it happened. what do you think that means legally for the president? >> i don't know. i haven't had a chance to analyze it, i don't want to assume that hypothetical. because it's so contrary to all the facts i know up until now i won't assume that. and i won't argue even if it happened it may not be as significant what the anti-trump people are going to blow it up to. but honestly don't think it's that significant. but in event, it doesn't matter it didn't happen. >> only way we know it didn't happen is president and donald trump junior said it didn't happen? >> right. and a person who is found to it be an incredible liar and because he has nothing to give, says it, all of a sudden at the 11th hour. i don't believe anyone believes

that, chris. >> we'll see, right. we'll see if mueller wants to take the meeting. if he wants to hear. >> i don't know why he wouldn't take the hearing. he would want to hear it. but then can he corroborate it? if he can't it's useless. >> you said earlier he may want this. >> you still want to hear it what he has to say. but as far as i can tell from the record, it is not corroborated by anything. in fact, it's disputed. >> all right. here's your problem. okay. and this will get us into the earlier scoop we had in the week. michael cohen has a credibility issue. stip layed for the point of argument you got it. so does your client. your client has a credibility issue. he has said things not true. and this week became an example of that. the idea that he didn't know anything about karen mcdougal until after the fact seems to be disproved by the fact. >> no. >> how? we'll go one by one. >> i told you the key part of the tape was the check or no check thing.

>> which i never understood but make your case first. i understood your case i don't understand the significance. >> they wanted to do the transaction in cash. which of course is ab such. it was a corporate transaction you can't do it in cash. so trying to attribute those words to him was like forcing an in ten tags of what is a case carefully analyzed on people. idea of a cash transaction here is absurd. the idea of cash is president wanted a memorialization of it wasn't afraid of it. that's important. that's important to mental state. did he have intent to deserve. which he didn't. president hasn't done anything wrong here. as far as the president not telling the truth, nothing that contradicts what he's said about this investigation. not a darn thing. >> well -- >> how about the tape with you, cohen says i set it up with stormy daniels. i paid it. i paid it out of my own pocket. i did it for the family. i didn't do it for campaign purposes. that is word for word exactly

the version we have. not only from the president but from all the people around the president that corroborates our case and kinds of throws the stormy daniels thing out of the picture. so he kind of screwed himself on that. >> all right. >> what does he have left? he has this ridiculous collusion thing. so it's got to go further than this. did trump ever meet with russians? did he ever agree with them? what do you mean he colluded? the russians hacked. nobody thinks tt president was involved in the hacking. did he get the fruits of it unknowingly? no. but if he did no crime there. >> understood. but difference between something illegal and something being wrong. one thing you have me handcuffed on one thing. what michael cohen told me on that tape, i told him was off the record. even though what happened in terms of the recording of it, that's one issue. it was off the record. so i can't corroborate what you are saying. >> i can. i read the transcript. >> i know you d but i wanted to be clear i'm not going back on my word.

>> chris, i told you this then and on fax, you did the right thing. in fact, chris, thank you for doing it. chris, you questioned the way a lawyer would question him and got everything out of him. i couldn't have done a better job of getting him to corroborate my client's statement than you did. >> all right. be that as it may. >> and he did it three or four times. >> it was off the record. i can't talk about it unless he releases it. >> he put it on the record surreptitiously by lying to you. >> i understand. but let me take you back to something else that i can speak to. on the tape that we played on the show this week. >> which is the first one now. >> yes. the president had a familiarity with what michael cohen was telling him that they needed to be doing with regard to mcdougal and the other assets that ami still may or may not have. he knew the dollar amount. he into you what was happening and why. that shows knowledge before the transaction. that is inconsistent with what

the president and what hope hicks said from the campaign he knew nothing about this until after the fact. not true ruddy we know it from the tape. >> not true. the tape didn't argue it. >> why did he know the dollar amount? >> cohen could have told him two hours before. you think they have one conversation in two years? >> i don't know. but when i hear it it's not new information. >> here's another thing that he did. when trump said, check, and everybody greece he said check at the end, he cut it off a bankruptly. who knows what else was discussed then? he has no doubt the president was very surprised by the idea of financing, that they were going to have to make some kind of payment. >> it was a clumsy word to use. i think it was cohen trying to leag legit moois it. >> he was surprised by financing. you could hear it in his voice.

>> he stayed what financing. >> yeah. which says he didn't know the details. >> then he said i'll pay cash, no check. >> no he doesn't say that. he says don't pay cash. no, no, no cohen says. >> i had a forensic expert look at the tape and he says. >> i'm just telling you what they said. >> if you want to listen to it. >> i listened to it so many times. don't get upset. >> i am upset because people are lying about it. it says don't pay cash. >> why would the expert lie about what he heard? be open to the possibility you are wrong. >> i am not wrong. i had heard it myself. >> you could be wrong. >> i'm not wrong. i heard it myself. >> it's so unclear on the tape. >> no, it's not. not if you are used to dealing with naudables like i am and enhance them yourself which i know how to do. the man is a proven lie ar.

no way you can bring down the president on a proven liar. i guarantee you he's a proven liar. >> i get what you are saying. >> people in your profession told me this guy will flip because inherent pathological liar. >> we only know what you show. we'll see what proof there is. >> i'm not worried at all. >> but i'm saying credibility is problem for the president. that's me not being unfair. that's me being objective. >> that isn't a case for the president. you haven't made a case against him. >> but that is part of of the proof. >> no, it isn't. when a liar says this. >> if the president knew of the tomb tower. >> he didn't. >> if he does, it matters. >> it does. it's not a smoking gun. it matters. >> that's not the bar. it matters. it's proof. and it's also proof that he's been lying to the american people. >> he didn't know about it. i know that.

i've been over this in great detail. i've talked to the corroborating witnesses. this guy is walking into a trap. >> you've tacked to the other people in the room? >> yes, a month ago, two months ago. >> and you know what they say the president knows and not knows. >> i know what they say. >> then i accept your word. what can you do to prove it? >> i know he is walking into a situation no corroboration. why didn't he tape it? he has 100 tapes. why didn't he tape that? maybe he did. maybe he's got a tape of that that erased. ever think of that? >> no. >> don't think he erased a tape? >> maybe. i don't know. >> i can say that he cut that tape off. >> we know that. but good and bad reason for that. he could have done it, as you are saying part of a ork tags or he got an incoming call and cut off the app that's problem we can have with that. >> we can argue both ways and that creates a reasonable doubt. and the reasonable doubt has to be with the person under

investigation. >> i'm with you. let's point something out for the audience. i'm trying to make a point with credibility. you are saying that's reasonable doubt. what is it? do you want a legal context? >> you you are making little points about credibility. and a couple major points about the guy who you are lee eyeing on for this big story tonight. number one, he lied to people about taping them both the president and other people. and not only that, he went to subterfuge to do it, a whole little game which shows how pathological he is. second, we know that we have statements from him corroborating 100% the entire stormy daniels situation. exactly as the president has told it. >> but if he's a liar, why wasn't he lying then? >> that's the point. >> for the president who he seemed to know for the whole family. >> now you are making a summation argument that makes it totally useless. you don't know when he's telling the truchlt because truth becau lies on tape.

so the guy in the legal profession we call incredible. >> and you don't think the president has the same? >> the president hasn't done anything like that he doesn't taping people and lying to them. >> flot the taping and lying. although rudy he said he did that can james comey and no tapes came out of it. >> did it as a test. >> did he tape jim comey? >> no, as he said. >> did they tape the interview in helsinki we'll put out the tapes? >> i don't know anything about helsinki. >> it goes to credibility. >> are you talking about the meeting? >> no, it was in an interview he had done about nato and he said i record all these interviews now. and you'll get that tape. we never got the tape. the idea of the president -- >> well, didn't your reporter tape it? they said we have our own to show our own context which never came out. he has credibility issues on

things small, medium and large, that's why the tweets are being relevant because he's been lying about this investigation. >> you can't make the case based on credibility issue. have you to prove. >> but that may be why you don't want him to testify. >> no, because i don't want him to be put up against liars. i don't want the situation he says the truth, three witnesses to corroborate him, but they recommend perjury, because one guya proven liar says the opposite. >> but he puts him in the same box. when he says no russian interference, he says it, and it's a lie. >> he hasn't said that. >> he said it a million times, rudy. >> he said russian interference is a hoax something that the democrats made up. >> he just gave a press conference in which he accepts the findings. >> yeah, now because. >> a year ago. >> no. >> we put out an interview eight months ago saying the same thing. >> come on, you no he has said so many times it's a hoax and

witch hunt and democrats made it up to make up why they lost. come on. >> the witch hunt is trying to get him into whatever the hell the russians did. >> then he should draw the distinction. >> yes he did. >> he did it. >> we'll go back and forth. >> because i've never been more right. >> he said after helsinki i accept it. >> after he adopted putin selection. come on, i was in held sin ki, o helsinki, one of the most embarrassing things. >> our intelligence community, they say what they say. >> you have your perspective. i have mine. the reality is the president said that he accepted the fact that it was russian interference. i don't exactly know how long ago, at least six months, eight months, maybe a year ago. >> and you don't think since that time he's said russian interference is a hoax. i'll send you a list of stuff that will crash your phone. >> what he is saying is that the

attempt to invade him. >> i get it. >> with all this craziness, $20 million worth of an investigation, all this obstruction nonsense that only comes out of the the fact that you have this investigation that started with peter struk running it for eight months, that is a hoax. he's right. that is a hoax. >> first of tall, we do know know that he is right about it being a hoax. it's certainly a legitimate investigation. pompeo says it. coats says it. members of congress say it. >> legitimate investigation of the russians. it is hardly a legitimate investigation of him. this is a political investigation. started by the people who helped hillary out of her jam. >> republicans. >> not republicans. pet pet peter struk. >> republicans. >> not a single republican. >> he has republicans on his

staff. >> certainly that i don't know. certainly not republicans engaged likewise m engaged like wiseman was engaged. >> mueller is a life long republican, you no he that. the president had just met with him about taking a post in the cabinet. >> and turned him down. >> but why did he meet with him? >> he begins with a conflict. >> why did he meet with him? >> he didn't know who he was. >> he didn't know? >> he knew mueller was a former fbi guy. he needed a fbi guy. he interviewed him and on the spot decided he it wasn't the right guy. then that guy becomes, you select that guy as special prosecutor, when hooes just been turned down for a job. >> rod rosenstein did, they picked rosenstein. >> i think it was a very serious mistake of judgment. >> but it's not. but this conspiracy theory they are all out to get the president

it doesn't make any sense. >> they are out to get him. they are out to get him. they are contorting evidence in order to get him. they are putting undue pressure on people to get him. they are putting paul manafort in solitary confinement to get him to break. and maybe they succeeded in cracking this guy and get him to know. i don't know. i'm not shoour of that i shouldn't say it. >> then don't say it. >> he has michael has disappointed me so much that i can't believe it. when i saw that he taped the president, when i listened to the other tapes, some of which you haven't heard it, and the way he deserves people, no way this guy survives like even a motion to dismiss anything that happens. >> here's what we know for sure. >> he'll russian the whole case. >> this is going to be a fundamental issue of credibility. >> good. >> and if you are right about it, this will go one way. >> no other way it will go because the president did

nothing wrong. >> rudy giuliani thank you very much. no reason to get angry. all about civil discourse. >> i am upset about the lying going on and getting upset this thing is being carried to this extent. >> tough but fair. banking on my table you'll break it. >> i did not. i got upset in the way everything is construed against the president when in fact everyone under investigation is entitled the benefit of the doubt. >> 100%. we'll go to commercial and show you what bang is. there is a crack in my table. >> we just heard rudy giuliani layout his case on the breaking news. so what could be the potential legalities what is worth examing? we have two big brain lawyers who made and defended these kinds of cases. chris cuomo's court, next.

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ash a, what do you have? >> that was quite a trip you took with rudy giuliani but i'm going to bring it back with the facts. so one of the things he mentioned about cohen was he has a credibility problem which i think is true. but with regard to the content of what happened with the notification of the trump tower meeting. remember that don junior according to senate judiciary committee transcripts, made three calls to a blocked number before and after that trump tower meeting was offered to him. and then on the day of the trump tower meeting, two hours later he made ha call to a blocked number. now the senate judiciary committee didn't subpoena those records, but i guarantee you mueller has subpenaed those records. >> and can you get the number behind a blocked number? >> yes, he can get from the phone company, with the subpoena, he should be able to get. >> and what's your theory that that blocked number was his

father? >> well, i don't know. but what i'm saying is that can corroborate or not corroborate michael cohen's statement. >> maybe, maybe not. >> so if that number -- well, if the numbers were to his father. >> well, then yes. >> and you have cohen also timing it, that would be a corroboration. so i'm saying there are ways to do that. >> all right. so let's bounce it to ross. what do you make of this at the outset? do you think this would be something if this is all true, and cohen goes in and this is what he tells mueller, how big a deal do you think its? >> look, i can understand rudy giuliani being surprised and upset by this. he's sort of fighting with shadows. and as a former fbi agent you can see how aggressive they may be on this. b but rudy had some good points. cohen has a credibility issue, and he does. don junior talked under oath about this the president talked

about it. we haven't heard michael cohen talk about it. so no way for us to measure his credibility. and in terms of the phone call i would expect don junior and his dad are probably talking multiple times a day about lots of different things. so the first point is maybe cohen is telling the truth or maybe he's not telling the truth. but we are not in a position yet to be able to judge that. >> but here's how you would know, ross, if this part is true, that it was a meeting with more people than just don junior then candidate trump and cohen, now you've got something else for mueller to dig into. >> yeah. >> and my only suggestion was if cohen were to lie to mueller about this, then he finds out that i've got three other people, or how many other people in the room, and they saw say cohen is lying, he's setting himself up for danger, is he not? >> for sure. but look people do that all the time. they go in and they lie and they

exaggerate to federal investigators all the time. and so far, you know, we have no knowledge that cohen has done that. and in fact he's playing sort of an interesting game here. you know, i think ash would agree with me, that federal investigators probably wouldn't be so happy with what cohen is doing right now. you know, going to the press instead of going to the government. >> right. >> and cohen is represented -- >> remember, this, ross, i have to end this. but remember this, ash taught me this on another story, if he went to mueller first, he would never be able to get word of this out. because mueller would lock him down. he woupt be able to talk about it. and he is worried about his credibility, clearly that's what this week has been about. thank you very much. ross, i appreciate it. thank you for making the case on both sides chblt we'll get more faktsd. come back we'll argue it more. court of law, one part of this, court of public opinion may be just as important.

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sources tell cnn michael cohen the president's former lawyer is willing to tell the special counsel that president trump is lying about a key meeting at the center of the russia probe. congressman eric swalwell, democrat, member of the intelligence committee, joins us now. this is a credibility contest, congressman. how does it size up in your estimation? >> good evening, chris. well, as far as michael cohen's credibility, rudy giuliani described him as a proven liar but all of his lies in the past were on behalf of donald trump. and also as a former prosecutor, i've proved many cases and it happens all the time that prove inliars come around and they do the right thing. and their testimony is critical in proving cases beyond a reasonable doubt. but the significance here about what is being said is that a candidate for president knew

that a foreign adversary the russians were seeking to help his campaign, and that i think cannot be lost, and that is what we have to guard against in future elections. >> right. but that's only as good as his word, right? >> right. >> unless there is corroborating evidence -- i mean it seems to be the biggest factor in the report congressman is what we don't know. >> i think michael cohen would be expected to corroborate other piece ns suggested that donald trump of course knew, and i say that because donald trump was close to the aguilara family. donald trump was one floor above where this meeting took place. the blocked number issue, we know that donald trump in his penthouse in trump tower had a blocked number.

so there's a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest -- >> what if it's true that he did know? how did it change the analysis? >> it showed that he had prior knowledge that the russians were seeking to do this and he didn't stop the meeting. he was giving a green light for the russians to interfere and for people on his team, his son-in-law, paul manafort, it was a green light for them to continue to work with the russians. so this opens up a whole host of other questions about the president knew. >> but that's not a crime. >> that's a betrayal of our democracy to let a foreign adversary -- >> arguably. [ all speak at once ] >> it will all be dealt with by voters. >> conspiracy to defraud the united states is a crime that many people in the mueller investigation have been charged with. so that would be the crime right there. an attempt is also a crime, chris. an incomplete act, if you try and rob the bank but you're unsuccessful -- >> it can be actionable under law. i understand that. when you had cohen, did you ask

him about knowledge he had of trump's knowledge of this meeting? >> we should release the transcripts. the republicans are prohibiting us from talking about that. i will just say this, we put out a report about significant evidence in the case, we did not include this. >> neither side did. does that mean you didn't ask, or he asked and you didn't answer? >> i think you can assume that we were very, i would say, complete with our questions and we covered a wide area of issues. but chris, every day in america, witnesses come forward who had told lies to the police and then want to do the right thing. if it can be corroborated, jurors convict on that evidence every day. >> congressman, thank you very much. i know you guys are on break right now. >> we'r thank you very much. >> my pleasure. all right, closing argument next on why the truth matters, told with a very entertaining story, next. welcome to holiday inn! thank you!

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closing argument next, why the truth matters, told with a very entertaining story, next. all right, here's a story

that captures where we are this week after these two significant developments, the cohen tapes and his potentially telling mueller that trump is lying about a material aspect of the probe. the president has tried hard to discredit and distract from the probe, certainly by attacking those of us looking for the truth. it takes us to this story. man walks into a pet store, sees a sign, talking parrot, guaranteed. buys it. brings it back, says, doesn't talk. the store owner says, it didn't climb the ladder and start talking? the guy says, what ladder? the store owner says, oh, sorry, you need the ladder. another purchase. then week, he comes back, he didn't climb the ladder. >> he didn't look in the mirror at the top of the ladder? then the guy comes back and said, the parrot is dead. he said, don't they sell any bird feed at that store? what's the moral? being aware when someone is selling you something. that's where we are right now. who is selling you a line of bs and who is telling you the truth? mueller is assessing this, but you must also, because it's highly likely the probe is going to come down to a political

battle. and lawmakers are going to do what they think you demand. now, as i said, trump keeps distracting from the truth of the probe. i heard the mayor's arguments. so did you. but the record shows he said consistently it didn't happen, it's a hoax, there's no proof of any collusion. same with the women and the peccadillos, no knowledge of payments to any women before the fact, no knowledge of what cohen was doing in that regard. now none of that appears to be true. so what is the truth? it matters, period. but the argument is that it matters here for at least a couple of reasons, okay? here's the first. to get to the bottom of any potential campaign violation or money moving crime. and two, because it goes to the president's knowledge of and involvement in a meeting that is proof of a desire to collude and certainly of interest to mueller. now, the rub is going to be credibility here. that's what it's going to come to. if we move to the end of our story, we'll have to make this

judgment. and i will give you the information, we will work hard. but in that story, trump would be the store owner. and here's the concern. if he'll lie about personal peccadillos, if he'll lie about what he knew and when about payments, if he'll lie about a meeting like the one his son and others attended, where does it end? where does it end? if he is willing to put himself first and the truth second, what if it's about what happens to the men and women we send to fight overseas? what if it's about meetings with world leaders? what if it's about, god forbid, what led to a terror attack here at home, the truth has to matter. it will not only answer questions. it will set a standard of accountability going forward to protect against irresponsible governance. the president has so much control and so much power, he must tell the truth. one dead parrot is enough. thanks for watching.

cnn tonight with don lemon starts right now. >> i knew exactly where you were going with that, chris. and i want to talk to you about what you just discussed. credibility. let me reset for the audience and you and i will talk. the story you just broke now is really huge. we've got to talk a lot more about it. this is "cnn tonight," i'm don lemon. the big headline, cnn reports mukel cohen, the president's personal attorney is prepared to tell robert mueller that donald trump knew and approved of the infamous trump tower meeting with russians in june of 2016. his attorney, rudy giuliani, you just saw him on with chris, challenging cohen's credibility in that interview a short time ago. thank you for that, my friend. let's talk about credibility. who do you believe? who does the special prosecutor believe? mueller and his team? for all these years, michael cohen has been a fixer for donald trump. he has his issues with credibility,