the government said monday it has no immediate plans to deport anybody. human rights watchers warned that those left off the list risk becoming stateless persons. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i'll see you next week. i'm brian stelter. it's time for "reliable stou sources." this is our look at how the news gets made. breaking news from president trump. he's upping his language against the news media and robert mueller. new york times columnist is here with a theory about what's going on. plus, think of him as the story teller in chief. are we in the news media over analyzing his statements and stories. should we be analyzing him like a novelist? the president is really

attacking the press with renewed vigor. it's something we need to analyze in detail because it's something that's being talked about the news rooms across the country now. you might say his attacks are becoming normalized in some way. let me show you what i mean. i think it's as simple as this. president trump's newest attempt to strip away our legitimacy and humanity is coming through on twitter. he's posting these kinds of tweets. here is one i want to look at. he is saying the fake news hates being called the enemy of the people only because they know it's true. he's claiming he is providing a great service to the public by explaining this. he says journalists cause great division and distrust. they can also cause war, he says. they are very dangerous and sick. i know we're all used to him tweeting all the time but think about what he's saying.

the president with his back up against the wall, is saying journalists are dangerous, sick enemies of the people. that's where we are. this is america. let me show you a few of the reactions from journalists. chuck todd calling this o outrageous. he tries not to take bait but he is hoping rational folks realize this is wrong and dangerous. bill crystal says he sounds closer to vladmir putin than america. other leaders in the past have always used the phrase enemy of the people. among those, joseph stalin and hitler. it was used in order to inflict pain and cause violence on populations of people throughout history. if the president doesn't know that, sewurely someone has told

him by now. there's been three days of rallies. the president singing the same tune but singing it more loudly. he's shouting some of these attacks. there's been a new found focus on how he whips up his crowds against the press corps. i think hate movement is the proper term for what's going on. president trump is not just telling his fans to ignore what we report. he's telling people we are the enemy. trump and some of his allies are promoting a hate movement against the american press. i've been seeing that term used more and more. first time u si saw it was by n jay rosen. it's a helpful frame to understand what the president is doing. when we see people booing journalists another rallies. when we see the death threats that come in over social media. it's all part of this hate movement. later in the hour i want to show you one of the death threats that i received. we don't do this but i'm going

to play the phone call for you so yo ku get a sense u can get it's like. here to talk about this is anthony scaramucci and joe lockhart. let's get this out of the way first. joe, are journalists the enemy of the american people? >> no. that shouldn't be hard to say from the podium. >> anthony? are journalists the enemy? >> i've said that consistently they are not the enemy. when you use the word enemy that means you're at war with people. i've asked the president and i've said to people in the administration to end the war declaration against the media. >> we might disagree on some other issues but i'm glad all three can agree about the rhetoric. why do you think the president is falling back to this enemy rhetoric and using it more

often? do you see a strategy behind it? >> he's upset because if you look at the harvard study and other studies, the bias there is about 90% against the president. he's a counter puncher. i think it's the wrong strategy. what ends up happening is you're uniting people against you that you don't need to unite. if you really understand the first amendment and you understand the hits historically that presidents have taken since the beginning of the republic there's no reason to declare war against the press. having said that, you can have an adversarial relationship. you can disagree with people in the press. you can disagree with editorial statements and things like that. sure presidents are doing that and have been doing that for 240 years. i don't like the war declaration. it will lead to something that none of us really want. i've said that directly to the president. bill shine.

i've said that to sarah huckabee sanders. i'll continue saying that. the war started when steve bannon at cpac said the press was an opposition party and the enemy. it's wrong. i support the president. you don't have to be on side on every single issue. i don't believe in litmus tests. i think he's done a very, very good job. his speech away from the rhetoric about the press was very good last night. >> what about the idea that no one -- that people are telling him to drop this rhetoric and he's not listening. is this why you wasn't in the job longer? he dupoesn't want to hear this advice? >> i made a mistake and got fired by john kelly for that mistake. i bear the accountability for that. i'm telling you that the most loyal people, your most loyal employee, your most loyal staff are offering you constructive advice and telling you balls and strikes the way they see them as

opposed to just acting. i would encourage people in the west wing if they think differently than the president they should speak out. speak out in a constructive way. there's no be ridiculously critical or biting. on this topic, the president's got great judgment. he's ban great marketing person his whole life. he's a great communicator. i think he's wrong on this topic. i think he's been right on the economy. he's been right on north korea. i think about what's about to happen in iran will be a result of his doing. i don't think this war with the media is something that's going to help him long term. >> joe, what about you? when i say it's hate movement, do you think that's fair depipgs -- depiction of what's going on? >> he trump is trying to pit the media against the public. i think the media makes a mistake when they make it about

just themselves. what it is is a hate movement and war on our democracy. the media is an essential part of that. keeping the president honest through the work the press secretary does and the president. the president and his people are pursuing a deliberate strategy. they are trying to confuse and undermine all the information sources except for the most conservative. they want to keep their base happy so they throw out the raw meat to fox news and others. then they want to get everyone else confused. you see this most explicitly in how he talks about the mueller investigation. calling it a witch hunt despite all the indictments that have gone in. desti despite all the work that's been done. he's trying to make people get so frustrated so say i don't believe anyone. it's a political strategy. it's dangerous strategy and it's a war on our democracy. >> anthony, a war on our

democracy? >> well, i wouldn't go as far as mr. lockhart is saying. he means about himself specifically. i think he does recognize that there could have been some foul play on the periphery. a lot of indictments came down were not directly related to him. >> that's what he feels he can say that. he says rigged witch hunt. >> i got that. i think rigged witch hunt sets people's hair on fire. those of us that have hair. what i would say to you is he is upset about the media bias. he has a right to be upset about the media bias but tactically and strategically the rhetoric he's using is very, very bad for the country. long term that amendment was first for a reason.

we have to uphold that amendment. we have to uphold the sacredness of that amendment. people can disagree with me inside the white house. the president can disagree with me. friends are allowed to disagree. i think that people that like him should look him straight in the face and tell him the truth about this if they feel as strongly about it as i do. >> it makes me wonder, you say he's upset with the media. makes me upset if bill clinton had twitter, what he would have said about the media. joe, do you have any guests? >> i think it's a fair question. there's a fundamental difference between -- first off, every president thinks the media is biassed against them. they think the media is too touch on them. they don't understand they don't cover the positive news. full stop. look at the difference between the 1990s and now. bill clinton pursued a political strategy of saying this is all going on over here, but i'm not

going to talk about it publicly because you elected me to work for you. i'm not a victim. even though at times he felt like a victim but in public he didn't do it. donald trump can't go 20 minutes without pouring out a self-pity stream of tweets about how people are out to get him. there's the deep state. there's mueller. there's the democrats. there's lebron james. you pick. any one that you can come up with. that's fundamentally different. even if we had twitter back then, i think president clinton rose with the public because he was able to put people first and look past what he thought was a politically motivated investigation and trump is pursuing the attack opposite strategy. i think it's failing. that's why you see this flailing around. >> anthony, joe, please stick around if you can. some breaking news before we go to break about the future of cbs.

you'll recall that blockbuster story came out nine days ago. now, more than a week later, he remains in charge while two law firms investigate the allegations. in the past few minutes we have received word about another man accused of misconduct. the executive producer of "60 minutes." cbs saying they heard the investigation will be wrapping up soon. jeff has decided to stay on vacation. here is the significance of that. he was originally planning to return to work tomorrow monday would be first day back on the job after the news magazine's traditional summer vacation. the new yorker article detailed allegations of unwanted advances and he enabled a climate of harassment at the news magazine.

f fager denied those allegations. cbs said they would have a firm that was already on the job would look into fager as well. the word from cbs news is this law firm's work will be completed this month. as a result, fager, one of the most poppwerful television producers will remain on vacation for now. that's notable. a few days ago he told me he would be back on monday. we'll be back with much more after a quick break here. behr presents: ordinary versus overachiever. behr premium plus, "behr" through it all with a top-rated paint at a great price. find it exclusively at the home depot.

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but, with more exercise and a change in diet, it can be reversed. i've tried exercising. it just makes me hungry. for bacon. i love bacon, too. and who really likes to exercise? not me. me neither! nobody! [both laugh] so, we're good? what? oh, you still have prediabetes. big time.

a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! sometimes the simplest questions are the best answers. ivanka trump was asked about her father's enemy talk. >> do you think we're enemy of the people? >> sorry. >> do you think we're enemy of the people? >> no, i do not. >> later in the day, sarah sanders was asked the same question but she punted and attacked the press instead. it's official white house policy that press is the enemy of the people. it's pretty outroageous.

sanders attempted to smear the media that journalist reveal bin laden's location or made it harder to find him. >> we fully support a free press but there's a high level of speedometer wi responsibility with that. the media puts lives in danger and risk value national security tools. one was the reporting to listen to osama bin laden satellite phone. he stop losing the phone and the country lost valuable intelligence. >> he said reporters made it harder to track down bin laden before 9/11. is that true? of course it's not true. it was debunked more than a decade ago. sarah sanders has yet to apologize for her screw up. i don't know what to say anymore, everybody. back with me now is anthony s r

scaramucci and joe lockhart. joe, is this how it works? someone hapdnds you a piece of paper and do you lie to the public? >> this has never happened before. we've had great presidents. we've had terrible presidents. republicans and democrats. we've never had anything like this where a president, we have a president who is incapable of telling the truth. the washington post averages something like seven and a half to eight lies day. the job of the press secretary even with an honest president is very, very hard. you're balancing the interests of the president's political fortunes and the government with the press and the public's right know things. it is hard. i think with both sean spicer and sarah sanders they have crossed the line here where they now, the facts don't matter and they reflect the boss. if the boss lies then i can lie.

that's just a terrible place to be for the country. it has consequences. the consequences of it, white house podium used to be place that around the world you could take it to the bank. this is our policy. this is what we're doing. right now, no one knows what the truth is and they could say the sun will come up in the east tomorrow and there would be bas speculation it's not going to. the lies just get told. for sarah sanders, she's now gone beyond the point of being in a tough situation with a hard boss. she's now aiding and abetting the process. the process is designed to undermine the public confidence in the one tool they have to keep the government accountable. >> you said she is cowardly. you really believe that? >> yeah. i think the brave thing to do would be to up there in that moment, in that moment to say,

you know what. the president misspoke. the president sometimes uses hyberbole. the president is frustrated. the press is not the enemy of the people. >> what's your reaction to what joe is saying? >> well, we're going to have to disagree on her personally and what her character is and what her principles are. i think she's very different from sean spicer. literally like night and day. she's trying her hardest to tell the truth to the american people. >> is she trying hard? when she got up there and lied about bin laden, she never corrected it. >> i think joe knows more than the three of us how difficult the job is and how difficult it is that you have to protect the principal and balance the situation but also respect the free and fair press. sarah is representing the

president there. ivanka is speaking giving her own opinion. i think that the president still believes and still says thing like the enemy is the press of the people. it's very tough for sarah to be up there as the president's avatar and answer that question. maybe she doesn't think that the press is the enemy of the people but she's representing the president of the united states. what i would like to see happen is the president walk that back. he's got an unbelievable economy. great growth, great wages. if you look at minority unemployment at historical lows, he should be in the mid-50s as it relates to his approval rating but he needs to change come some of the conat the present time -- content and style of communication. if he doesn't do there, i think there's a head wind where people are saying hold on a second.

the first amendment is there for a reason. >> this is damage we'll live with a long time. i did notice you took lebron james side in this tiff between trump and james. is that an example of him needing to change his communication style? >> yeah. i don't agree with what the president is saying about lebron james. i tweeted about it two or three weeks ago before he said the stuff about don lemon and lebron james last night. i disagree. that doesn't mean i can't be on his team. if he dupoesn't want me on his team because i disagree. i think the first lady is in the same camp as me. lebron james is a great american success story. lebron james is a guy, frankly, that has been a role model to so many people. not just people in the african-american community but

all of america. he's an inclusive guy. if he disagrees with the president and says a few things here and there, the president's very combative guy. he's hitting him back. i would tell the president knock it off. >> that's why a lock t of peopl think lebron james, don lemon and later in the day he attacks ma maxine waters again. a lot of people see racism. >> he calls everybody stupid. black, white, green, yellow and red. the guy is not racist. >> he called three black people stupid this weekend. i didn't see him call any green or red people. >> he's called a whole host of people stupid. i think it's inappropriate. it's definitely not racist. i know the guy personally. i see how he interacts. he's far from racist. he picks on everybody universally.

what's at stake here is a guy like lebron james. if someone is hitting you a bit, let it go. if you look at the dashboard of success that america is having now both domestically and internationally. >> he says the polls are fake. >> he says -- >> i think there's a deeper problem than what you're describing. he told me last night at a rally where he said the polls are fake. that's what he said. you talk about approval ratings. >> okay. listen. he may think the polls are fake. i'm a trained economist. i understand statistics pretty well. let's take a sampling of 50 of the polls. they are roughly right. let's get him on track communication wise. stay away from attacking lebron james and don lemon. i think it's a bad move. >> anthony -- >> might be good for don for his ratings. i don't know. >> for another conversation.

anthony and joe thank you for being here. >> thanks. coming up, what this outlandish conspiracy theory is really all about. i have a theory. i'll tell you right after the break. in the u.s. it's america's most popular street name. but allstate agents know that's where the similarity stops. if you're on park street in reno, nevada, the high winds of the washoe zephyr could damage your siding. and that's very different than living on park ave in sheboygan, wisconsin, where ice dams could cause water damage. but no matter what park you live on, one of 10,000 local allstate agents knows yours. now that you know the truth, are you in good hands?

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something. as much as i promote fact checking and accountability journalism, we should look at this through the prism of story telling. it's us versus them. it's dark versus light. his supporters get it. watch. >> trump is a story teller. he's an entertainer. he should tell the truth but he tells stories and sometimes his stories stretch things. >> many of trumps lies are awful but they are in service of this story he's telling. if you can look past the lies for a momentum, y, you can see fans love the stories. look another the faces at the rallies. trump says he's putting america first. fixing the economy and fighting the dark forces trying to stop him. in other words, he's the hero. battling against dems in the date state and never trumpers. whether you love trump or hate

him, you have to recognize the pow er of story and recognize te powers that boost that story. picture his pro-trump media world has his co-producers. it's as if his fai rvorite hostn fox news are hard at work in the writing room developing the plot. trump promotes them to millions of people. >> the guys that we love, right, they're blowing them away in the ratings. hannity, tucker carlson. we're blowing them away. that's good. those are the people that love us. >> "we". he says we. he tells people to read specific books that back up the story he's telling. he gives people ways to participate. that's a really important part of this.

i think it's kind of what this q thing is all about. the crazy qanon theory. got a lot of media attention. people have showed up with q signs at all three of trump's rallies. the theory is trump is secretly saving the world and stopping pedophiles, i think. what you'll find on these message boards is don't believe the media cover aage of trump east' easterab' east' easterab's terrible mistakes. >> it's a fun thing to be a fun thing to be part of it in. >> it's fun because things get revealed. we know before it's going to happen a lot of times. when things are happening, we got a smirk on our face and go q told us. >> see, there's almost a choose your own adventure aspect to all of this. it's entertainment. trump and his favorite talk shows and his favorite authors

and the people who come up with the conspiracy theories and the twitter bots and trolls that promote it and the politicians that play along. all of it amounts to an alternative reality. in the same way that disney fans fly to florida and comic book fans argue on message boards fru trump loyalists flock to these rallies. they are motivated to defend him and tell his story. never underestimate the power of an entertainer. this is where pollster wrote. for all that trump may ignore the fact he's got something that can still matter a lot. a story. her point back then holds really true today. it might leave you wondering, if trump is telling this emotional story, what story are trump's opponents telling? that's my attempt to make sense of the rally phenomenon.

we're seeing more and more of these rallies. let's hear from someone who has been there. i'm joined by susan glasser. cnn global affairs and staff writer. margaret, a lot of attention about the angry crowds yelling at the press corps. when i watch the rally there's joy and happiness on the face of the attendees. what do you see going on at these events? >> in way you do almost have to be there to understand the nuance on the field. every rally is a bit different. rally takes on a move of its own. i've been so some that have felt ominous and afraid to come in with the press pool and be identified as press. others that are really joyous, happy occasions where you'll jump in and start trying to talk to people in the crowd, getting the know who is there. they are very nice and cordial. i'm a retired plumber.

this is my son. i live here. welcome to my neighborhood. sorry the air-conditioning is brok broken. five minutes later when the president begins bashing on the press, the same people are turning around shaking their fist at you. to many people in that audience as if it was a road show or reality show or a rock concert. they know what they're part is. there's call and respond element to it. there was call and respond element to obama's rally. we were just never one of the foils in that game. >> i'm seeing more and more viewers and e-mail readers saying to me, reporters should stop attending. stop showing up at all. what do you say to that ? >> i understand that sentiment. it misunderstands the job of a journalist. the job of a journalist so to be an impartial person and give

information to readers so they can make a judgment. it's not the role of a journalist to take part in any of this. that's part of the dialog diabo nature of what the president is doing. he knows that. do news channels need to cover a rally live, gavel to gavel for an hour and a half. i think the answer is no. the media has never done that for past presidents. it's the job of reporters to be there to decide what is news and to show that to the public. >> the new normal is that cnn and msnbc don't carry the rallies live until there's big breaking news. fox news does carry every rally live in its entirety. you see different strokes for different folks. susan you wrote about trump's lies this week. your headline was it's true, trump is lying more and he's doing it on purpose. what's the meaning there? >> well, you know i think that

does sum it up. margar margaret's point is extremely important. the rallies and the dramatic scale and scope and number of donald trump's lies are very much in tandem. one of the reasons the washington post has documented this dramatic up tick is because trump has kicked into campaign mode in recent months. we're likely to see more of it over the next couple months headed up to the midterm elections. he said he will be on the road six to seven times a week. these misstatements and untruths are connected to his political identity. these aren't random misstatements. they are connected with his political story. it's not just a narrative that he's telling. if you look at the categories where he lies the most in public is things like immigration, trade, russia, nato, for example. these are things that are

connected. it's not just that he has policies that he is supporting. he is supporting those policies with a conscious strategy of lying and attacking. i think it goes right along with his broader war on the media and calling us enemies of the people. >> thank you both for being here. on that point, we'll talk about the effects of all this enemy rhetor rhetoric. the threats the reporters are receiving right after a quick break. ordinary stains say they can do the job, but behr premium stain can weather any weather. overall #1 rated, weathers it all. find our most advanced formula exclusively at the home depot. this ijust listen. (vo) there's so much we want to show her.

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rm our theme this hour, president trump's untruths. he says polls are fake, then he promotes those he like. my next guest says this is all connected. an op ed columnist wrote that trump's campaign against independent information has been especially chilling this week. a campaign against independent information. i asked him what he means by that. >> this week was chilling because of the ferocity of the language that he used against both the media and against the mueller investigation. what i was trying to point out is as worrisome as the language is against the media, what he's doing is not restricted to the media. he is on a campaign against

anyone who represents an independent source of the information. the media, fbi, the congressional budget office, scientists in the case of climate change. i could go on and on. trump want a monopoly on information and he wants to attack anyone who threaten that. >> that's a much bigger mover than merely calling cnn fake news. >> or calling new york times the failing new york times or going after nbc. all of that is alarming. i think it's important for people to see this isn't just about the media. trump doesn't hate the media because it's the media. anyone who is from new york, as i am, and is roughly my age, as spent decades knowing that donald trump loves the media. he loves attention. the issue is he doesn't like anything that is a threat to his ability to tell people what the truth is. he wants the ability to say whatever he wants.

he wants the ability to say his inauguration crowd is x when it's 20% of x. to tell stories about russia. whoever that independent source of information is, the media, fbi, mueller investigation, you name it. if that represents a threat to him, he wants to attack them as unreliable so he can be the one to tell people this is what's really going on. >> he has lots of helpers. he has lots of allies like sean hannity who will tell him he's right and back up his point of view. it's not trump's campaign, it's trump's world campaign. >> that's right. trump is not the mast eer mind behind all of this. we live in a country that's deeply polarized. many people don't believe anything unless it comes from a voice they already trust. >> how big is that group?

how big is that population that only believes what trump says? >> i think we -- what's the largest possible group. it would be his core supporters. he's consistently had approve of about 40% of the country. sometimes it rises towards 45. sometimes it dips to 38. right around there. i would say i think there's some people in that group who don't believe what he is saying but support him and don't care if he's lying. i think there's another group who don't really think that much about it. to tell it doesn't matter. he's right in the larger sense. why does it matter whether he makes up statistics? he's on their side. i don't know. to the extent are we talking a about a quarter of the country. >> it's not necessarily 40% of the country that dismisses everything. it's a subset of his base that's especially loyal to him. those are the folks that wait in liep

line at the rallies and chant cnn sucks at the camera. >> this is worse than what we see at other parts of our political system. i really don't want to equate them. i think people who are not the president's supporters, you can manl h -- couldn't imagine how this would happen. imagine a politician who you thought was on the side of truth said something, in some case, that turned out to be untrue, you're not going to immediately get worked up about that. i think we see that phenomenon happening repeatedly with trump supporters. >> you can hear the rest of our conversation right here on our podcast. after a break i'll show you something we don't normally share. it's audio of a phone call threatening me and another cnn anchor. we want to show you what these threats to reporters are all about. est combo.

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attacks on the media are having an effect. threats against reporters are on the rise. but instead of me telling you that, i want you to hear it for yourself. on friday the said he's going to shoot me and don lemon if he sees us. let me preface this by saying i'm not asking for sympathy. i don't think i'm in extreme danger. some of my colleagues get much worse threats than i do. cnn has a great security team and we know how to handle this stuff. this problem is not confined to cnn. people at fox news and other outlets had to deal with this garbage too. but these kinds of threats are coming in more often. so take a listen. here's the phone call. >> don, state college pennsylvania supports the criticism in the media. don, you're on the air. >> caller: good morning. it all started when trump got

elected. brian stelter and don lemon from cnn called trump supporters all racists. they don't even know us -- >> let me stop you there. i've never called trump supporters racist, neither has don lemon. what this guy is about to say, is predicated on a lie. >> don't even know these americans out here and they are calling us racists because we voted for trump? come on. give me a break. they started the war. i see them, i'm going to shoot them, bye. >> he says we started a war and if he sees us, he's going to shoot us. so where did the caller get the impression that i called all trump supporters racist? i don't know. i do know the night before on fox sean hannity played a two-year-old clip asking if anxiety was a factor in his rise.

researchers have proven racial anxiety and resentment was a factor. i don't know if the c-span caller watched hannity, not blaming hannity. i thought the timing was odd. friday's threatening phone call is a tiny illustration of the threats that are out there. many journalists who cover politics say they are receiving more and more threats nowadays in the trump era. katy tur sounded the alarm earlier this week. >> i hope you get raped and killed one person wrote to me just this week. raped and killed. not just me but a couple of my female colleagues as well. in case you want to argue this has nothing to do with the president. the most recent note i ended up -- >> brett stevens wrote in the "new york times" on saturday, journalists are concerned we're approaching a day when blood on the newsroom floor will be blood

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