chris? >> i am chris cuomo. welcome to "prime-time" we have new information about what might be next for michael cohen. and the president's latest legal misstep. trump has twisted his story once again about the payments made by his lawyer to help his campaign. and this latest one has him tied up in knots. we have trump's former lawyer whom he called for advice about how to handle the cohen situation. what he thought then and now. you know the president is on his heels with what just happened because he whipped out his what-about defense. what about obama? he did it, too. no, he didn't. we have the facts ahead. a convicted felon gets high praise from the president. will paul manafort soon be getting a pashrdon?

what do you say? the president has basically said it all when it comes to payments. i deputy the women, i deny knowing anything, i deny knowing before. now he says i only knew after. and i made the payments, so there is no problem. these comments coming a day after president trump's attorney said in front of the judge and at risk of losing his plea deal what seems to make the most sense. trump directed him to do it all. let's bring in trump's advisor and attorney for over 20 years, also a former prosecutor and author of a book, jay goldberg. welcome, counsellor. >> how are you, chris? >> i'm doing well. >> how are united states doing? >> i'm well.

the title of your book has to do with what we're dealing here which is the theater of the absurd. what do you make of the michael cohen situation and how did you know it would come to this? >> well, i said to the president as early as april after it was announced that there had been a search and seizure that michael coen would turn into a government wrns, that donald had to be careful that there would be tape recordings and that it would be very dangerous that the public might not understand the role that a government witness seeking to win the favor of the government plays in our criminal justice system. what disturbed me is that the people take at face value the fact that michael coen will say certain things. it's been a varity in our system that people who seek to win the

applause or cooperation of the government generally and often change their testimony to satisfy the government. and i want the public to know that michael cohen can't be counted on to tell the whole truth simply because he's testifying for the government. >> well, he's -- >> he's likely to say things that will -- yes. >> listen, i understand that in this system, people often will play to advantage. if it helps them get a better deal for themselves they're more inclined to say certain things. they have a duty to figure out whether or not michael cohen is believable on these matters and at least with respect to the idea that the president knew what trump -- that president trump knew what michael cohen was doing when it came to paying for trump's own peck dillos.

>> that can't be contested. >> the president just contested it today. >> finance -- >> he contested it today. it flies in the face of what we played the audience on the tape. >> i think we're beyond that. i think the issue now is the question of collusion, whether there was an arrangement with knish from the government -- from the trump campaign to secure information from the russians. >> well, but michael cohen just pleaded guilty -- >> that's the case. . >> i hear you on collusion. i don't want to let that be a distraction or an excuse to get away from lying about criminal conduct and the president's former lawyer did just plead guilty to campaign finance violations that stem from what

he was doing for the. . the president says -- >> yes. chris -- >> that's not true and there's a tape that tells us that the president is not telling the truth. doesn't that matter? >> yes. the question is should he be punished for the falsehood that he said, for example, on the plane. it wasn't under oath. it wasn't given to an fbi agent. it's not punishable. >> but it's still wrong, isn't it? >> it's something that -- it's wrong but it's not punishable. it has to be under oath or it has to be given to an agent of the government. >> doesn't it bother you if the president of the united states is lying to the american people again and again about something like this? >> well, that should concern the public that the president can't be counted on to tell the truth. i agree with you. i mine, i'm a good friend of the

president and i don't condone lying to the public. that, i'll agree with. >> so when -- >> and so i say that -- >> go ahead, counselor. >> go ahead. . i say he deserves the hostility of the public for the fact that he can't be counted on to tell the truth. but getting to the issue of why the special counsel was appointed, the question of collusion and whether there was an arrangement is essential feature of mueller's task and this case of -- involving trump started with comey back in middle 2016. and so far, there hasn't been one witness who has testified to collusion between the president and the russian advisors.

that's something that i think is very foreign. i guarantee it, chris, even though he koops, he's smart enough, michael cohen, not to say he was present at any meeting in which the president said i have an arrangement with the russians. witnesses don't do that. >> why not? >> if the question of collusion is on a scale one to ten, he'll move it up to seven. he'll say, well, the president says he has a good arrangement with the russians but he'll never say that the president said that he had a collusive arrangement with the russians. >> but that's t not the standard. what if he were present for a meeting where somebody gave the president information about something the that was going to happen that was a 23u7ks of the hacking and the president therefore knew about it at a time when he said he did not know about it? what if the president -- >> that would be punishable.

>> -- meetings that he said he doesn't know about and michael cohen can say i know he knew, i was there when he found out. doesn't that matter? >> that's punishable, if he relies on information that he knows was illegally on taped, that, he can't escape. if someone gives information to a member of his staff and doesn't say it's the product of an illegal hacking, there's nothing wrong with that. >> right, but that's a big if. >> what is wrong -- what is wrong -- well, i don't know if they're going to be able to prove that he knew the information he received was illegally on taped. i question whether they're going to be able to gone that he had knowledge, that this was from stolen information. >> let me ask you one more thing and i'll let you go and i appreciate your time. the idea of why the new legal team for the president doesn't

want him to do an interview. what is your level of confidence that -- >> yes, yes. >> that donald trump could sit across from these types of investigators and tell the truth the whole time? 6. >> well, i'll throw it back to you. what is the chance that the prosecutor is not engaged -- will not be engaged in a perjury trap. >> i'm surprised to hear you say that as a former prosecutor. that is -- >> yes. >> suggesting that prosecutors are up to no good, that they're for a form of entrap jchlt. you know the president has plenty he can talk to the men and women about that are of a fact finding nature this probe. >> as a pressuosecutor i can te you when you can't make a case, we'll consider the possibility of a perjury strap or a conspiracy or live testimony. >> they can only get you if you lie to them. >> no, that's not true.

>> they have to prove beyond an reasonable doubt that whether you said was a lie. >> no. if the question was did something happen on tuesday and trump says it happened on wednesday. if michael cohen says it happened on tuesday and the government has some support for that proposition -- >> it's got to be material. >> -- trump will be involved in a perjury count. >> you did a nice job twisting it around. i'll give you that. do you believe he could sit in the chair and tell the truth, the whole time? >> i think there's a question whether from past experience i could count comfortably on him testifying. in fact, when i spoke to him in april, i said to him "do not testify, do not submit to questioning." the prosecutor and his chief deputy, you know, we say that mueller is the head of the operation. but it's run by his chief

deputy. his chief deputy is a specialist in perjury traps and conspiracy charges, and i worry whether he can safely sit across the table from people who are interested in getting information or people who are interested in getting him. i think the latter is what we're involved in. >> jay goldberg -- >> it would be too risky. . >> jay goldberg, i appreciate your time and making the case to my audience. thank you, sir. >> and thank you, chris. >> all right. so there you hear his friend, self described and counsellor for many, many years saying, yeah, he's not telling the truth about what he knew about the payments. we now have to focus on the bigger question. think about that. his friend, counsel who knows him thinks there's an issue about him telling the truth. he's concerned that the prosecutors would be out to get him.

think about that. now, what does this tell us? if the president is going to say this now, he's going to argue in the alternative. even if i did know about the scheme to the pay off my own peck dillos. i did nothing wrong. what is the alternative theory? obama is the real campaign criminal. many are covering these as competing claims. not here. no false equivalency allowed. facts ahead. peck just call geico. geico helps with homeowners insurance? good to know. feeling better? i love you, pookie bear. [parrot 1] i love you, pookie bear. [parrot 2] i love you, pookie bear! [parrots] i love you, pookie bear!!! get to know geico and see how easy homeowners and renters insurance can be.

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deaf. all right. we knew president trump wouldn't admit to what his former lawyer michael cohen made clear in court that trump directed cohen to commit crimes. we knew he was going to go bad personally. there's another line of attack that may be his weakest yet. remember, we played you the tape on this show that made it clear that trump was aware of what cohen was doing before he did it. so -- and he's lieings about that. the new line is this: obama did the same thing. in fact, he likes this excuse so much, so nice, he used it twice. once in a tweet and then this. >> they didn't come out of the campaign. they came from me. i tweeted about it. i put -- i don't know if you now, but we tweeted about the

payments. but they didn't come out of campaign. in fact, my first question when i heard about it was did they come out of the campaign because that could be a little dooiszy. they didn't come out of the c campaign. if you look at president obama he had a massive campaign violation but he had a different attorney general and they viewed it a lot different. >> here we don't just listen. we test. first off, the only thing that trump is right about is that there was a violation involving the obama campaign, a big one. you got to remember, every conspiracy theory, like every lie, they're fed by a kernel of truth. obama didn't do anything personally. his campaign, ok, obama for america, they did plenty.

they failed to report 1300 contributions within 48 hours as required by law. and that campaign received some contributions that also exceeded allowable limits. in total, the contributions amounted about $2 million. so the campaign paid a percentage. $375,000 in fines. it sounds like a lot and it was, but relatively, in the words of one election attorney, obama was the first billion presidential campaign, so proportionally, iefltsz not that out of line. regardless, it was still wrong. trump and anyone else who says this type of violation is nothing needs to remember how little control we have on campaign contributions in the first place. so reporting counts. now, what happened here in the cohen case is a different animal entirely. this has nothing to do with the campaign apparatus and everything to do with trump, his

lawyer and their sneaky scheme to avoid more damage too his campaign. cohen admitted to making illegal campaign contributions "for the principal .500 of influenof -- sflungs an election. the president's argument isn't true. how do we know? titles 52 of the u.s. code. compare that to obama's campaign, it's like comparing apples to elephants. the obama matter was settled as a civil matter with the fec. cohen is going to prison for an intentionally committed crime. if the president wants to compare to obama's, trump got in

trouble in 2016 for improperly handling denations. about 11,000 donations were made, including donations that exceeded the allowable limit in a year. so not only did obama not only do what trump did but yes, trump did do what obama's campaign did. now, cohen paying for his pieck dillos -- he said i know a little something but i didn't know anything before. i only knew after. that's what he's saying today. we know about the tape. the tape that we got here on this show that makes it clear that a at a time before cohen made a payment, trump clearly knew and was directing him.

listen -- >> i needny for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david, you know, so that i'm -- i'm going to do that right away. i've actually -- >> i've spoken to alan about how to set the whole thing up with -- funding -- [inaudible]. . >> yes. it's all the stuff. all the stuff. here you never know what he's -- >> corrects. some i'm all over that. i spoke to allen able to. when it comes time for the machi machining. >> no, no, no. i got -- no, no, no. >> that was before he made the payment. trump knows what's going on. he's lying to your face when he says he didn't know until after. he's saying, you know what, forget about what i said about what i nigh or when.

i paid all of it back, so first of all, we don't know that for a fact. let's assume it and give the president the benefit of the doubt. i paid all of it back so no one contributed anything for me. i call this buckley versus vallejo for you scotus scholars. money is seen as political speech. but even if that were true, the president still didn't report it anywhere and that alone would trigger the statute and put him in violation of the law. he says no one gets prosecuted for that. tell john edwards. he was tried and prosecuted and acquitted but after a full trial. then today trump's sara sarnders took it a step further. not only did trump do nothing

illegal as cohen accuses, but l. j. to this. not going to play it four. she said that he did nothing wrong. ok. so lying to you is not wrong? lying repeated i about criminal conduct is not wrong? i showed you the facts. you can conclude quickly that this trumpian bar of no crime means i did nothing wrong. that, my friends, is wrong. so what is going to happen with all this the democrats are in a interesting way. they're not talking impeachment. they say no, no, no we're not ready for that. they're using it as a way to stop trump's supreme court pick. is that going to work here? we'll talk about that and see if the cohen/manafort developments are a game changer the way chuck schumer says they are.

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. the president says he tint know about michael cohen's payments to women until later on. remember, we've already played you a tape that shows this cannot be true. listen. >> did you know about the payments? later on i knew. later on. >> it need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david, you know, so that -- i need to do that right away. i've spoken to allen about how to set the whole thing up. >> they listen. here, we test. that was before michael cohen made the payment. the president is in the room. he's speaking, he's listening, he's directing. the president told you don't believe what you're reading or seeing. is that because what you're seeing and hearing prove that he's lying? let's ask our great debaters to

take it on. stooervegs let's see if we can go 2-2 on the candor scale. in terms of whether or not he's lying, yeah, he's lying and the public has a right to be upset about that. will you own that reality as well? >> listen. we have to be careful about the facts. when you keep playing that tape you're misrepresenting the facts. that tape is talking about payments to karen mcdougal made by somebody else. the fact of the matter is neither trump nor cohen ever paid them. you're conflating two stories. the stormy daniels payment is totally different from the karen mcdougal tape. trump with honestly say -- >> because there was no payment. >> i give you that they were different payments. i've always represented that was about karen mcdougal and david

pecker. you better check your facts. however, the point remains the same, steve, i'll toss it to you trump didn't pay pecker. >> he knew about what was being done on his behalf. that's why michael cohen had to plead guilty to two counts. >> they were discussing maying for something and they never paid for it facts are important. they discussed paying. >> you are making a distinction that makes no difference in the analysis. >> it makes all the difference in the world. i can talk about pieing a house. >> did you know he considered buying a house or not? did you know or not? >> that's not material. >> it absolutely is material. >> jennifer, grands home, what's

your case? really, steve, bless your heart for trying to get trump out of this soup, but he snu that he was paying off women. that's the bottom line. and it's a good thing that we've got evidence. other than michael cohen's testimony. there's the tape and who knows what other evidence that the mueller investigation has that's documentary evidence or testimonial evidence from other people. what is alan say iing? trump did not know the hit is totally blocked by the tape. there's still the report withing requirement in the statute. >> hold on. chris, that's not true. you have -- again, we have to be

careful. election law is clear. the phrase that's used in election law, if it would have been made ney -- >> but michael cohen said he made it to help the campaign. >> michael cohen, the felon and dishonest rat said that. we're going to take his word as gospel truth? >> he agrees with you about michael coen. he believes he's a good man, an honorable man. >> michael cohen was facing decades in prison. he had committed serious violationsful the prosecutors were able to squeeze him and put him in a corner. >> i'm not saying that they're going after the president for it. i don't think they can. not just in substance but in

style. i don't think they can do it with him in office. i think that's why they didn't even use his name in the information. it goes to lying. i give it to jay goldberg for being honest about that. the president's not telling the truth. now i have the argument. jennifer, i keep having this argument. i don't understand using it as leverage onned the kavanagh nomination. during the clinton situation you had stephen breyer come up and he went right through. he wasn't used as a bargaining chip. why use it as one now? >> this particular nominee has an unusually expansive view of executive power. he was selected by donald trump because donald trump picks people who are going to help him. they went through his entire record and they know that this particular nominee believes t t

that. so this particular nominee was sloeblgted by donald trump because donald trump knew the muller investigation was coming. this nominee does not like independent n counsels. so you got to look at all of it in that context, that he was picked out by trump for the purpose of protecting himself because he knew that a mueller potential case was going to come to the supreme court. >> steve cortez, i'm short on time but in the interest of fairness, give me a sentence. >> if you want to stop the supreme court nominee and hurt the president, the democrats have done neither. that's the way if you want to stop a nominee, not by making up wild accusations from michael cohen. >> no, no. you got to look at his written rorltd. >> we got to look at all of it. jennifer's right about that.

i got to leave it there. they're going to have the hearings. they're going to be testing it. steve, jennifer, thank you. >> thanks. >> all right. he has information that he can share with people like the new york attorney general who may be looking at the trump foundation, like the mueller probe, maybe information on what the president may have known about the fruits of russian hacking. ok? we're going to see what a former top spy thinks about the potential here. former cia director michael hayden. next. with tripadvisor, finding your perfect hotel at the lowest price... is as easy as dates, deals, done! simply enter your destination and dates...

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. the cohen plea, all lies says trump. manafort investigation, a witch hunt. really? your former lawyer who you always said great things about

is a complete liar now? our next guest says the real witch hunt is h. good to see you, sir. >> hey, chris. >> so the simple question is what now? because of these verdicts and this plea agreement with what does this mean? how does this advance the ball at all? >> it demonstrates the ability of american institutions. lt i want to underscore that. despite pressure from the white house, despite language from the president. and some of his surrogates. what the you've got is a relentless series of steps by institutions of the american government. the southern district of new york. and they appear to be peeling this back one layer at a time that we find the truth. i was struck listening to other parts of the show and some of

the things that the president's been saying. . it reminded me of an incident 30 years ago when i was the military atta military man. i said to him you got to tell me, what is the meaning of truth to you? and he came back to me truth, michael, is what serves the party. i think we're seeing a dose of that here in north america that i never expected so see. >> look. you just serd his self described friend, his counselor of over 20 years, someone he called on how to deal with the cohen situation, yes, he's not telling the truth. but it's not a crime. it's just an afterthought for people who seem to know the president that yeah, he's lying. that's what it is.

that's a new thing for us to deal with. >> no. it really is. that's why i was reminiscing an this experience in a communist country. i saw it there. i never expected to see it here. now we're talking about moving forward on the investigation with michael cohen and i've heard several guests point out you can't rely on what he says. because he's under do you remember relation. the government can coerce him. without trying to draw too close a parallel here, chris, we used to hold some folks at cia, too, that we were trying to pressure to get people to tell us the truth. . we could use that knowledge then to keep them off balance, to press them and make them tell us more than they would otherwise be willing to tell us. i think when it comes to michael

cohen. terms of collusion and other things that mr. mueller and others are investigating, i think they know an awful lot. i think they will actually be able to get to the truth, nor matter how much mr. cohen is incentivized to embellish his story for his personal gain. >> a guy who's a reformer prosecutor said don't make it sound like everything has to rest on michael coen. he could just be a corroboratesing asset for investigators that other people were in the room. they'll go to those people, push on those people. they'll see whether it corroborates what cohen says. there's a lot of ways this could go. general hayden you are always a plus. >> thank you. >> what matters more? the murder of a young woman or the legal reckoning the president suffered yesterday. what a horrible question.

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want to show you a picture of mollie tibbets. she should have been just starting her second year in college. she had everything going for her and was well liked, by all accounts. she goes for a run last month, never comes home. yesterday investigators were led, they found her body. they were led there by the man they suspect of killing her. his name is cristhian rivera. officials say he was in the country illegally. now what was done to her has been co opted for political purposes, including the president. seizing upon the murder to make his political points. this isn't the first time we've seen this. it's powerful stuff, because the murder is wrong, the murder is heinous and ugly and but for the fact that this man was in this population illegally, it wouldn't have happened. how it's used and what it is set

up as as a dividing line is also an ugly situation. >> my heart goes out to mollie tibbets and her family. it should not have happened. it is awful, chris. but it is -- you know, we can want to fix our immigration system without dee monizing immigrants or illegal immigrants. i want to say that this is difficulty national and any of science find that immigrants are much less likely to commit crimes than natives and a 2017 stoud found illegal immigrants are 69% less likely to be incarcerated than native americans. we have problems with crime and that's committed by people who were born here, people who are here illegally. that should not happen. unfortunately there are people who commit crimes who are here

illegally. we should not use them as political paunz and not use the facts. we can want our people to come here legally, we should want them to stay within the law as we would want our president to stay within the law as well and to tell the truth. we can want all those things taimt. >> true. >> one doesn't preclude the other. >> what have you got coming up? >> dan rather to talk about everything that's happening now. he lived it. he lived watergate. >> yep. >> i'm going to ask him history doesn't repeat itself and it rhymes. dan is a legend to me. he used to sit in this chair through some of the most tumultuous times. see you in a minute. >> we're going to talk about this. i'm going to make it part of the closing argument because there's no, sir question that mollie

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we let you keep an eye on your business from anywhere. the others? nope! for a limited time, when you get fast, reliable internet, you can add voice for just $24.95 more per month. call or go online today. call or go on line today. . 17,the 350 people were murdered twiblgt. that's the most recent fbi data to go on. the number is up 8 1/2%. hasn't of the victims are young women college age. you don't see them adopted by the right as targets of national attention except when the killer is what they like to call an illegal alien or something worse. indicate steinly and mollie

tibbets. the political pitch follows soon there after. if you're not ready to keel with his hostility, you are disrespecting those families and putting others in danger. i don't accept that. i do agree, of course, these murders are horrible. they do show a good reason to prevent illegal entry because, yes, but for the killers being here illegally, that is the fact and these two young people would be alive if not for that fact. so would a lot of people who are not young white women who have been murdered by illegal immigrants. the idea that murder is a likely consequence of illegal entrance is bogus. it is a flawed premise and it is an eggly premise. why? there is no good data that

showed illegal entrants are more of a threat to hurt you. in fact, the data shows they are less of one. now, trump pulled the number out. 63,000 victims since 9/11. a lot of you echo it to me. it is b.s. it is as exaggerated as the larger point that his folks want to make, demonizing people for getting here the easy way and taking a short consult. that is what causes illegal entrance most of the time. i wonder if the sympathizers would be as full throated if the victims were not young white women. if that were the case, would we have seen this today? >> mollie tiblts, an incredible young woman is now permanently separated from her family.

a person came in from mexico illegally and killed her. we need the immigration laws changed. >> permanently separated. as obvious as it is yao. he cares about mollie tibbets more than people who don't believe in separating kids from parents or treating undocumented immigrants like dogs? please. what that tells you is that even in this moment talking about mollie tibbets, he still has to play the political advantage. it's proof he still doesn't want to own what he did to those kids and many are still waiting to get back to their parents. we have not forgotten. the president still doesn't think it's wrong and he thinks grands standing. these are the same people that

tamp down police use of force cases and say those cases are being politicized. they mitigate the facts. they play the coverage close to their vest. then they put families like the tiblts, the stipelys, after the rich family in the glare. seth rich. remember him? his death, his murder all about democrat deviousness until it wasn't. until the family said stop doing this to us. there is no proof of what you're saying. go away. and once the political intrigue ran out of the story, did you see dogged coverage by the same people about what happened to seth rich? these victims matter, all of them because they were stolen from this world and they will never be replaced by their family. but the argument is this. the murders married, period. not because of who committed them. that's my closing. thank you for watching.

cnn tonight with don lemon starts right now. >> you said that much more eloquently than i said it in just a couple of seconds with you. >> true. >> you're absolutely right. again, it's awful. our hearts go out to the families. can you -- no one can imagine, even wants to imagine that the kinds of pain they're dealing with right now. >> it is the kind of thing that keeps any parent up at night. none of us are supposed to outlive our kids and when they are stolen from us, you have every right to be outraged and the community does as well. we're seeing that in iowa but it doesn't give peopling the right to use it to play to something else. the president taking a moment like this to make a video saying he was permanently separated, that's doubling down on doing the wrong thing. >> you know what newt gingrich said.