-- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com tonight on "the axe files," former governor of massachusetts, off the sidelines, back in the political arena ahead of the midterms. >> i think the character of the country is on the ballot right now. >> taking on president trump and his administration. >> there's one thing on which you agree, but maybe for different reasons. neither of you seem to like jeff sessions very much. what say you now that he is in the cross hairs of the president? >> announcer: and his remarkable journey from the south side of chicago to governor's mansion.

could a run for the white house be next? >> there are a lot of people who are desperately looking for a candidate who can lead. are you thinking about it, and if so, why? >> announcer: welcome to "the axe files." >> goofr duval patrick, good to see you again, an old friend. >> thank you for having me. >> it's so appropriate that we should meet here in boston, not just because it has a lot of meaning to you and your own political career but to history. >> indeed. >> of this country and there are two major narratives that kind of course through this building. >> at least. >> one -- yeah. many, many, actually, samuel adams spoke here, frederick douglass, lucy stone, and also this hall and this area was where slaves were auctioned and peter was a slave merchant and it just reminds us that 250 years later, we're still

struggling because where are we as a country? >> america's original sin. >> and we're still feeling it. >> one of the things i've said for a long time as a black man, as a former civil rights lawyer, is that we struggle in this country to acknowledge both the extraordinary progress we have made on civil and human rights, much of it during my lifetime, and the progress that remains to be made. you know, we have had -- it was remarkable to me when barack obama was elected president, how many of the pundits said we have know reached a post-racial society. and it was an extraordinary accomplishment for him and for the nation, but it was not -- it wasn't the end, because we are about perfecting our nation, not being a perfect nation. and we've seen, as in other times in our history, that there's been some retrenchment and some reaction.

>> yeah, impacted wanted to as about that. i remember standing in grand park. there was this sense that this barrier had been shattered and it was a huge leap forward for the country and i think it was, but how much of what followed was essentially a backlash to it, a reaction to that progress, president obama talked about it just recently. >> he did. marvelous speech. >> progress doesn't just move in a straight line. there's a reason why progress hasn't been easy. and why throughout our history, every two steps forward seems to sometimes produce one step back. >> i remember that night in grand park. i remember coming early to chicago that day so i could go to my old neighborhood on the south side and just sit quietly on the stoop of the place where i lived and place, in fact, where i was born and just experience what it was like to be from that place and -- on the

night when we were about to elect the first black president of the united states. and i remember the feelings in grand park, but i particularly remember being on the plane the next day, flying back to boston, and being by myself for just a second and looking out the window and that's when i lost it. i also felt disappointed but not surprised when donald trump was elected for a whole host of reasons, but not the least of which was that he spoke as a candidate one truth. when he said that conventional or establishment politics wasn't working well enough for a lot of people. i have a whole lot of folks have seen that folks who have lived the american dream or who have been waiting for the american dream are frustrated that the american dream itself has become stymied by a whole host and for a whole host of reasons over the last little while. but saving the nation from 30 or

40 years of systemic undermining of the mechanisms that enable people like me, you know, a great education system and a system of opportunities that enable us to lift ourselves with the help of programs and policies and people out of struggling circumstances and into the middle class and beyond, that has been compromised by choices that we've made as a nation for a long time now. and i think folks are dealing with that and facing that, and i think some of that has been, you know, poor choices or short-term choices made in politics. >> but that -- that isn't the whole message that donald trump was delivering. >> no, no. i get that. >> and his basic analysis was that the -- that this was a zero sum game and the reason that people have lost was because others had gained and the

immigrants, minorities. >> i'm simply trying the say that i don't think that the only reason that donald trump won is because of hate. i think that hate was a central part of his campaign, and i think it's become an even greater part of his administration. but i think that we are at a time of extraordinary social and economic anxiety and social and economic anxiety is combustible and you can use that combustion to fuel fear and division, or you can use it to fuel the future and either of those paths, historically speaking, is american. only one of them is patriotic and i think that what donald trump has -- the path he's chosen is american, but it's not particularly patriotic. >> what was your reaction when you saw his comments around charlottesville? >> oh, god.

it was -- it was alarm. defense disgust. it was disgust. it wasn't surprise, this. i've been frustrated, i will say, by the number of members of the republican party who have -- who have adopted this line, you know, sort of watch what he does, not what he says. >> but isn't that -- you're a practicing politician, off and on. >> more off than on these days. >> survival is the first instinct of most politicians. and right now, it feels as if donald trump is -- is the dominant force within the republican party. that is to say, those who challenge him go off to retirement and those who support him tend to win their primaries. >> you know, david, there's got to be more to this than the next

election. when i think about the next election, whether it's 2018 or 2020 or 2022, you know, folks say that there's -- that the character of the candidate is always on the ballot. i think the character of the country is on the ballot right now. and that is up to not just the candidates but frankly it's a question of being called for us as citizens. and particularly when it comes to the president of the united states, words matter. >> you said that famously once. >> we hold these truths to be self-evident. all men are created equal. just words. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. just words. >> think about it. there are choice words spoken with conviction and from the heart. they have moved this country in

profound ways and powerful ways and positive ways to do the extraordinary things that have made us truly great, historically. >> you know, the words that have moved us tend to be words that were contemplated and calculated to move us to -- they were the product of thought and reflection. twitter doesn't exactly lend itself to that. i'm reminded that lincoln used to write letters in anger and put them in his desk for a week. but that's not the case now. what is the impact on the country of this kind of steady stream of acrimony. >> you know, constant invective is just that. it's a poison, right? and we don't actually have to express every thought we have. even having a twitter account doesn't mean you have to push

the send button. every time you type it out. i mean, frankly, i've never understood reality tv. i don't understand why a lack of decorum is entertainment. i don't even -- i don't get that. but in that sense, you know, donald trump is right on trend. >> well, and maybe the product of it -- i mean, he was really launched into his public career by his role as a reality tv star. >> right. >> your -- your differences with the president are manifest. there's one thing on which you agree, but maybe for different reasons. neer neither of you seem to like jeff sessions very much. you opposed his appointment to the federal bench when you were at the naacp. you were opposed to his appointment as attorney general. who say you now that he is in the cross hairs of the president? >> well, i feel for him and his

position. i wouldn't wish that on any attorney general. i think he's being mishandled by his boss, and i think you know, if he's not in the wheposition where either of them think they ought to be, then there are ways honorably to deal with that than a public -- >> flogging. >> flogging. but you know, my issues with jeff sessions go back to trying a case against him, voting rights case against him when i was at the legal defense fund. a criminal case that he brought against three of the people who helped organize the selma to montgomery march and they were trumped up charges at the time and we believed they were and we defended these three activists, and we won their acquittals. >> his policies as attorney general now, apart from his handling of some of the matters that have got into hot water with the president probably

still displease you. >> oh, please, i mean, his attitude about what constitutes fair access to the ballot, about what it means to be a full and enfranchised citizen of the united states are as antiquated as they come. >> would you like to see him go? >> listen. i don't think -- i'd like to see this whole administration go, because -- and that's what 2020 is about and 2018 is about putting some real oversight in the administration in the meantime. >> announcer: coming up next on "the axe files" -- >> this has made establishment democrats nervous. >> good.

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the country. what have you seen? because there seems to be this renewed sense that, you know, i -- you probably get it too. or have gotten it too. elections don't really matter. they're all the same. >> turns out they do. >> you don't hear that anymore. >> yeah. yeah. the great thing about the here and now is that there's all this incredible energy. there's a lot of folks who have been on the sidelines, have come off the sidelines. there's so many ways in which folks who had been on the sidelines have come off the sidelines and said, i have to do something. i have to show up. and i think that that energy and enormously important and powerful. >> i've been on both sides of waves in my political life. i've been almost drowned by them and i've also surfed them. what do you sense? do you see democrats rolling into the control of the house in

november? >> i hope so. >> perhaps other places, senate as well. >> i hope so. but i think, you know, folks are understanding there's a lot of organizing that has to happen. there's a lot of registering that has to happen. there's a lot of getting out the vote that has to happen. i think the folks are beginning to focus on how much all of the mechanisms of democracy have themselves been compromised over time, gerrymandering and vote suppression and the incredible flauns influence of money in politics. >> well, and both parties are compromised. >> and i think that's right. i think that's right. but my view is that as the democrats increasingly formulate a -- an ambitious, broad agenda, economically and from a reform point of view, and from a foreign policy point of view, there should be also a democracy agenda that goes right at reforming the very fundamentals of our access to the ballot. >> there is this stirring within

the democratic party, you just saw it in massachusetts. you saw a -- you were on the other side of that with a guy who had been supportive of you in the past, mike. she was one of several candidates, alexandria ocasio cortez, stacey abrams in georgia, and they are a new face of the democratic party, young people of color, energetic. but in many ways, more to the left of the establishment. they talk about abolishing i.c.e. and they talk about single payer health care and universal basic income and in some cases, you know, proceeding apace with impeachment. this has made establishment

democrats nervous. >> good. that's good. >> what do you have to say about that? >> first of all, i think it doesn't quite capture what happened in massachusetts. first of all, she's fabulous. and she's going to be great in congress. mike is also fabulous and when i was a -- an unknown, brand-new first time candidate, he stepped away from the establishment who were paying me no mind. >> i remember that because i worked with you on that campaign. >> yes, you did. i love the fact that so many new young and progressive candidates are stepping forward in massachusetts and elsewhere, and i think in some ways, you know, in a way, they're coming home. in a way, the party, at its strongest and at its most innovative, this is that party. right? big ideas, trying new things. >> do you agree with those ideas? >> i love those.

i love the idea of innovation. i love the idea that we would try big things to solve big problems. >> but you campaigned down in alabama for doug jones. you saw connor lamb one in the district outside of pittsburgh. probably abolishing i.c.e. and some of these other proposals that these candidates have talked about in their venues would not play well in those areas. so how, in a big, diverse country, do you formulate a unifying vision and march forward as a party? >> i don't know that we should be trying to formulate a platform for 2020 today and at this table. you know, when i hear abolish i.c.e., i don't think anybody is saying that we don't need some agency to do that job, but we do need an agency with a different temperament and a different attitude and a different sensibility. we need different behaviors.

so it's like saying -- >> essentially saying there still needs to be some agency that performs that function. >> somebody's got to do that job. we have to enforce our border laws. >> the other thing that's implicit in all these candidacies, these are young people, and it suggests generational change within the democratic party, and yet you have this paradox that, you know, when you look at the leading candidates for president, many of them are in their 70s, nearing 80. h how do you square that? >> the voters will square that. and even the notion of using the term, leading candidates, is two years plus before we know who the candidates will be and certainly who the leading ones will be. so it's -- we'll see. >> what about you? >> what about me? >> well, your name comes up that there are a lot of people who are desperately looking for a candidate who can lead the

democratic party forward and your name comes up in that context. are you thinking about it and if so, why? >> my focus right now is on the midterms. >> i understand but let's -- >> no, no, no, don't say blah, blah, blah. my focus is on the midterms and on my day job. first of all, i have a terrific new fund. i've launched event capital and i'm having a ball and we're doing some good, and secondly, the midterms are critical. so, on nights and weekends, i'm trying to spend time on a handful of campaigns, mostly in places where it feels to me democrats haven't been talking to folks for a long time. where we haven't been willing to compete. we've kind of taken it for granted that they were red states or republican states, and we've kind of stepped away and said, that's theirs, and we'll go pay attention to what's ours. so, that is where i -- my focus

is, and frankly where i think everybody's focus is. >> but the day after that election, the focus is going to turn to 2020 and -- >> ask me the day after. >> you're not going to start thinking about it the day after the election. >> you'd be surprised. >> you're thinking about it already. friends of yours, not you, have started a leadership pac, the reason to believe pac, and it's clearly designed to help encourage you to run. you're moving around and you're campaigning and i understand that's because this election is important, but it's also something that one would do if one was going to run. why would you do it? what would cause you to do it? to run for president. >> to run for president? i meant what i said. i really am focused on 2018. i think we're going to be fortunate in having a big and broad and deep field on the democratic side, a talented field on the democratic side. as i look at it, it's hard to imagine how you even get noticed in such a big, broad field

without being, you know, shrill, sensational or a celebrity, and i'm none of those things and i'm never going to be any of those things. >> so what would your place be in that? >> well, i'm not sure there is a place for me in that mix, frankly. i like my life i and i -- but i want to contribute. i want to help. >> what kind of candidate does the democratic party need? >> i think we need a candidate who is bold and willing to think big and the most appealing thing about this moment, from my perspective, is that i think the electorate is willing to think big, and i feel like we've had a series of leaders, save one, president obama, who was stimied by circumstances and forces beyond his control, who were unwilling to think big, and we

have a populus who is ready and i hope that we have leaders who are ready. >> there is this theory, when names come up, of african-american potential candidates, you and there are several others, that, well, we can't really go there, because, you know, we're -- we'll never get these white working class voters we've lost back if we have an african-american candidate. >> i don't buy that. i'm going to tell you why i don't buy that. you know, opioid addiction was a problem in my neighborhood. >> yeah. >> in my household. >> of yes, your uncle had a heroin problem. >> you know, it was an issue when it got to the suburbs. what i'm saying is that the things that i experienced growing up on the south side of chicago are things that we're hearing talked about as more broadly experienced national phenomenon that are touching communities of different shapes and kinds, small towns, rural communities, everywhere.

and what has happened, i think, since 2016, and the run-up to 2016, is that we got a candidate in candidate trump who saw those circumstances and used them to divide us. and what we need, i think, and what i am hoping for, are candidates who draw us together through that shared experience and say, you know, there isn't anything we're experiencing that we haven't, as populus, created, that isn't within our capacity to solve. >> announcer: up next on "the axe files." >> we took a moment that could have turned into a classic appeal to fear and division and instead brought kindness. we were at our very best, all of us were at our very best.

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you're sort of the great american story in many ways. that neighborhood that you grew up in was a very challenged neighborhood. >> it was. >> and you came from a challenged home in that your dad, who was a noted jazzman, pat patrick, played with sun rah and others, he left you and your family when you were a little boy. >> yeah. my parents split when i was about 4 years old, and i remember that day. my parents had a huge argument. we were living in a basement apartment on the south side of chicago, and my parents had a big argument, and my father stormed out, and i went chasing after him down the street, and he kept shouting at me to go home, go home and walking and i kept chasing behind him and not knowing what was going on and finally he turned around and

just whacked me and i'm sure out of just frustration and anger and i went sprawling on the sidewalk and i remember, you know, you've had those cement burns. >> yes, i remember. >> and that feeling, i still -- i can feel it now as i tell you to story. and i remember the feeling of looking up at him walking away. i'm a parent, a grandparent now, 5-year-old grandson and i can't imagine walking away from one of my own in that position. and i didn't see him again for years after that. my mother and my sister and i ultimately moved in with my grandparents, as i said, and we shared one of the two bedrooms in that tenement apartment and a set of bunk beds and so we'd rotate, top bunk, bottom bunk,

floor, every third night on the floor, and i went to big and broken and underresourced and sometimes violent public schools. i don't remember -- i don't remember owning a book of my own until i was 14 and i got a scholarship to come to a boarding school not far from here. but we had incredible teachers and incredible adults who paid attention to us. there was a sense of community. >> you know, everybody who talks about you through the years talks about your interest in mediating differences and finding common ground and i was wondering whether the conflict that you experienced as a child, i mean, did that teach you or was it going to this completely foreign place from the south side of chicago to tony milton academy in massachusetts, did -- how does one formulate that kind

of personality? >> wow. we should have a shrink here to probably help with that. i think, you know, i'm -- i'm unfinished. i'm still figuring it out. i remember coming to milton and it was so foreign. they had a jacket and tie requirement and i hadn't seen the campus before my grandparents splurged on a new jacket for me to bring to class. but a jacket on the south side of chicago is a behiwindbreaker the next morning, the boys are putting on their blue blazers and tweed coats and i had my windbreaker and i'm thinking, oh boy, i have a lot to learn. and it got to a point where it felt like the price of admission to the one world was rejecting the other. and at 14 years old, you know, that's a heck of a thing to have to learn to straddle these two worlds, and i think i learned a lesson, painful at the time, but

incredibly valuable over time, and that was that i had to figure out who i was and be that all the time. just figure that out and don't worry about the consequences, just be that person all the time. you're going to lose some friends, but you figure out who loved you. >> as i think about it, you've also kind of lived in two worlds as a professional. you've lived the life of a public servant. you were at the naacp and you did voting rights cases and death penalty cases. you deid corporate law and you also went back and ran the civil rights division in the justice department and then you did more corporate law and in fact you were general counsel to two big corporations, texaco and coca-cola, each with big issues, and now, in your

post-gubernatorial -- and i want to talk about the gubernatorial years, you're working at bane capital, which became famous in 2012, when mitt romney was running. and it raises this issue about -- what you would get if you did decide to run for president, about how you can be the committed progressive and the committed capitalist at the same time. >> well, first of all, nobody's a cartoon. i'm not a cartoon. and i don't fit in a box. and i think, you know, as a point that came up when i was running for governor, and i -- it's a point i made in response. if you want someone who fits in a box, i'm not that guy. one of the reasons why i got interested in impact investing and why we are -- >> explain that. >> yeah, so, impact investing is the notion that you can generate

both a competitive financial return and measurable social or environmental good. i have tried to do good and do right in every assignment i've had and never to take an assignment where i felt i had to leave my conscious at the door. >> i want to talk to you about that gubernatorial campaign. you spoke to a couple of people then. one was mike dukakis, the former governor of massachusetts, who was a little incredulous. you were at 3% or something in the polls. >> was that high? >> margin of error stuff. almost unknown to people in massachusetts. and yet you were able to overcome that. what were you thinking? >> i wantent to see mike partly a courtesy but also because he was a real believer in grassroots campaigning, and it

was, in some ways, out of fashion, and i went to see him in his office and i said this is what i'm thinking about and he said, really? and i said, yes. and i said and i -- you know, i'm -- i want to run a grassroots campaign and i understand you're the gu rru an he said, well, i believe in that and you've got to get to the old way of doing it, knock on doors and introduce yourself to people and it's early so you have time to do that and here are some people you should talk to. >> you spoke to barack obama as well. >> i did. it was great. he was moving into his new office. >> senate office. >> right. it was in the basement. and i said, senator, i'm so proud of your election. i said, i'm thinking about running for governor. he said, huh. he said, you got any money? i said no. he said, you got any organization? i said, no. he said, you got any name recognition? i said, no. he said, i'm in.

and off we were. >> talk about your governorship. you served two terms. you had success bringing biotech to massachusetts on renewable energy. you moved education forward, charter schools was a big initiative of yours. you also ran into problems. >> everybody does. >> you know, you wanted to do a big infrastructure program, ran into the recession and resistance in the legislature. and part of the critique was that you ran against beacon hill, never quite understood how to conquer it. is that a fair critique? >> well, some of it is. i mean, we didn't get everything right. i will say that, you know, we were first in the nation in student achievement, in health care coverage, the precursor to the aca. >> governor romney deserves some credit for that. >> he signed the bill. he signed the bill right there. >> with ted kennedy over his shoulder. >> that's right. it went into effect the day i

took office, so i feel we have our fair share of credit to take as well. first in the nation veterans services and entrepreneurial activity in -- so many firsts. we have the highest bond rating in the history of the commonwealth. for all of the back and forth with the legislature, you know, they gave me 95% of what i asked for. >> if you were ever to be president of the united states, what did you learn from that experience that would inform you? >> well, i will say that the legislative process is slower than this impatient governor appreciated. and you know, i'm not sure i ever got used to that. you want it faster and i think the people want it faster. >> you also learned how to deal with catastrophes such as the boston marathon bombing. >> sure. sure. difficulties, you kind of expect. catastrophes are different. i think everybody stepped up.

you know, we had -- everybody. and not just the officials. the first responders were extraordinary. they brought their very best, but private citizens brought their very best too and i will say, it's one of, i think, our proudest moments that we took a moment that could have turned into a classic appeal to fear and division and instead brought kindness forward and celebrated that. and unity. and in a hundred some-odd hours found two needles in a hay stack and let our judicial system and law enforcement system perform. it worked the way it was designed to work. and we were stronger coming out of it because we saw that our institutions functioned and we were at our very best, all of us

were at our very best. >> announcer: ahead on "the axe files." >> and you came out here and you looked out at this vast expanse of field, which was filled with people, and you made this comment. >> i will not engage in the politics of fear. i will not do that. but mania, such as unusualrder can rchanges in your mood,

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getting the job done safely so we can keep the lights on for everybody. because i live here i have a deeper connection to the community. and i want to see the community grow and thrive. every year we work with cities and schools to plant trees in our communities. the environment is there for my kids and future generations. together, we're building a better california. a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! 2006, your first campaign, which happened to be for governor, and it was at a tense moment in the campaign where you were under attack because in politics, when you're doing

well, that's what happens. >> yeah. >> and you came out here, and you looked out at this vast expanse of field on the boston common from this band shell and -- which was filled with people, and you made this comment as part of your speech. i will not engage in the politics of fear. >> and that's because fear is poisonous. all through history, it's been used to hold back progress. and limit fundamental fairness. only hope defeats fear. it always has. >> you know, there's this theory now that in order to defeat the president that one has to be as angry and as pugilistic as he is. and there's a competing theory which is that you have to offer a different path. >> i think we have to offer a positive alternative, and i am

hoping that in 2018 and beyond, that our positive alternative will be, you know, an opportunity agenda which is about our vision for how we grow the economy out to everybody and not just up to the well connected. that it will be an -- a reform agenda to fix the systems that are broken from the health care system to the immigration system to the tax system and beyond. that there will be a foreign policy agenda that is about a constructive and responsible engagement around our values, around the world, and the democracy agenda that i talked about, how we fix democracy itself. we are hungry for something other than just a show. especially a reality tv show. you know, we spend a lot of time in 2016 campaign, especially in the last several weeks when we were trying to close the deal,

talking about what was wrong with trump. it wasn't enough. he sucked up all the air and all the oxygen because it was a novelty. it was a carnival, and it will be a novelty and a carnival the next time. he has shown he can perfect that. but there is the people's business to be done and we need to be talking about the people's business. >> you filled this field and you filled it again back in 2008 when barack obama was running for president and you endorsed him. and it spoke to the nature of grassroots politics and the power of grassroots politics. what is the future for grassroots politics and can grassroots politics overcome? >> it's got to. it's got to. and it's got to, and then, you know, when we do have power, we have to change the system. we can't keep pushing that issue down the road as well. we have -- and you know, democrats have been complicit in

this problem too. you hear more and more candidates saying they're not taking pac money in this cycle. and doing perfectly well but i think we have to change the system so that pac money becomes a disqualifier. this motion that a so-called supreme court judge deems a corporation a person, that's just ridiculous. >> it's opened the door to -- >> of course it has. >> on that point, we're about to have a vote on another appointee to the supreme court. what is your level of concern about this appointment? >> the process has been rushed. documents have been withheld. and leave aside all of the objections, and it's hard to, to the way president obama's last appointee was treated, which was -- >> merrick garland. >> and that was -- >> a friend of yours. >> indeed. and that was totally uncalled

for. the way this process has been handled, the lack of transparency, the haste, leaves one, i think, quite reasonably to wonder what is it they're hiding? and to the extent we have had a glimpse of some of the so-called committee confidential documents, it gives you the sense that what they're hiding are views that are outside the legal mainstream. and if they are views that are outside the legal mainstream, this is a nominee who should not be on the court. so, you know, what is this about? what really is this about? is this about a highly qualified nominee or is this about engineering another result? is this about the hard right, the radical right that has captured the republican party, trying to now engineer legal results, engineer interpretations of the constitution? >> how worried are you about the transformation of the court and

what it will mean for the things that you've been active in over the years, voting rights, the rights of gay americans? >> you know, i think there are some things government does do well and some it doesn't. and i think government is not that good at very personal decisions in our lives, like deciding whether a woman and her family should or should not keep an unwanted pregnancy, whether to put a person to death, whether you or i get to, you know, choose whom we marry. the very intimate decisions in people's lives should be left to the intimacy of that person and not up to government. and, you know, that is sometimes -- used to be thought of as a conservative point of view. >> excuse me for interrupting.

based on what you heard in those hearings, do you have concerns that some of these rights will be curtailed? >> yes. >> announcer: up next -- >> you know politics is a brutal business. how much does that factor into your thinking about doing something in the future? ♪ be right back.

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politics is a brutal business. >> yeah. >> it's more brutal perhaps than

ever, today. >> if we had any rules, they've been cast aside, haven't they? >> you went through a tough campaign in 2006. it was hard on your family, your wife very publicly acknowledged that she dealt with depression after it, you had family members who were attacked. how much does that factor into your thinking about doing something in the future? >> it's on my mind. i love my wife. we've been married 35 years this coming may. and i love my family. and, you know, they make a fair claim on me. that's what it's about. that's what family is about. maybe politics always was a kind of a blood sport. maybe it was always entertaining in that way. i'm not sure what we gain from it. we have so turned off the electorate from a vital part of the oxygen of democracy by

making the process of democracy so distasteful for them. and i worry about that. >> and so what gives you hope now, given the great acrimony of our politics, what gives you hope about the future? >> i look at the activism that has been spawned by regular people, not professional activists. the parkland kids, black lives matter, times up, black girl magic. all these incredible grassroots, spontaneous movements where folks have said, you know what, we have got to show that we are better than this moment, that we are bigger than this moment, that there is decency and kindness in us that expresses what is fundamental about americans. and that that is indeed more expressive and more indicative about what it means to be

american than what we get today in the president's tweets. >> it seems like a worthy place, in this chamber, to thank you for your time, governor. >> good to be with you, thank you. >> for more on this conversation, subscribe to "the axe files" on your favorite podcast app. good evening, i'm ana cabrera. you're watching cnn's special coverage of tropical storm florence, this epic storm on its way to delivering a third full day of disaster along the carolina coast, forcing hundreds more people from their homes tonight. and those fleeing the flooding can now know that florence is a killer. 11 people have died in storm-related incidents. as i speak, the situation could not be more urgent along the lumber river in north carolina. emergency officials warn of catastrophic flooding with the water rising significantly in the last several hours. and