show me decorating shows. this is staying connected with xfinity to make moving... simple. easy. awesome. stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and two-hour appointment windows. click, call or visit a store today. this is "gps -- the global public square." welcome to all of you around the united states and around the world. today on the show, bob woodward, the trump administration and "fear." how does the trump white house compare to the eight others he has written about? what is the, quote, big problem trump's aides talk about constantly? and why do so many people tell bob woodward so much? also, it's ten years since

the collapse of lehman brothers. since the financial meltdown, we haven't had a crisis or a crash. are we overdue for one? and more importantly, are we ready for it? i'll bring you the troubling truth. and pope francis, the vatican and child sex abuse. can the church heal? can it survive as is? i'll talk to "the new york times'" ross douthad who has a new book out on pope francis. but first, here's my take. for several years now, scholars have argued that the world is experiencing a democratic recession. they also note a general hollowing out of democracy in the advanced industrial world. when we think about this problem, inevitably, rightly, we worry about donald trump, his attacks on judges, the free press, his own justice department. but there is also a worrying erosion of a core democratic norm taking place on the left.

it has become commonplace now to hear cries on the left to deny controversial figures on the right a platform to express their views. colleges have disinvited conservative speakers like condoleezza rice and charles murray. other campuses were unwilling or unable to allow conservatives because to actually speak with protests overwhelming the events. a similar controversy now involves steve bannon who has been making the rounds in air waves and in print, including an interview i did with him on cnn. some have claimed bannon is simply unimportant, irrelevant and, thus, shouldn't be given a microphone. if that were the case, surely the media, which is a for-profit industry, would notice the lack of public interest and stop inviting him. the reality is that the people running the economists, the financial times, 60 minutes, the new yorker and many others who have recently featured bannon or invited him know he's an

intelligent and influential ideaologist. a man who built the largest media platform for the new right, ran trump's successful campaign, served briefly as his chief strategist and continues to articulate and energize the populism that's been on the rise throughout the western world. he might be getting his 15 minutes of fame that will peter out, but for now, he remains a compelling figure. the real fear many on the left have is not that bannon is dull and uninteresting, but the opposite. that his ideas will prove seductive and persuasive. hence the solution, don't give him a platform and hope this will make the ideas go away. but they won't. by trying to suppress bannon and others on the right, liberals are likely to make those ideas seem more potent. did the efforts of communist countries to muzzle capitalist ideas work? we've been here before. in 1974, william shockley, the nobel prize-winning scientist who in many ways was the father of the computer revolution was

invited to by yale students to attempt to discuss his views about blacks that are an inferior race and should be sterilized. a campus uproar ensued and the event was canceled. it was later rescheduled with another opponent and that was disrupted. the difference from today is that yale recognized that it had failed in not ensuring that shockley could speak. it commissioned a report on free speech that remains a landmark declaration of the duty of universities to encourage debate and dissent. the report flatly states that a college cannot make its primary and dominant value the fostering of friendship, solidarity, harmony, civility or mutual respect. it will never let these values override its central purpose. we value freedom of expression precisely because it provides a

forum for the new, the provocative, the disturbing and the unorthodox. the report added, we take a chance as the first amendment takes a chance when we commit ourselves to the idea that the results of free expression are to the general benefit in the long run. however unpleasant they may appear at the time. it is on this bet for the long run, a bet on freedom of thought, belief, expression and action that liberal democracy rests. for more go to cnn.com/fareed. and read my "washington post" column this week. let's get started. ♪ 46 years ago this summer, two young reporters at "the washington post" were assigned to report on an unusual event. a break-in at the democratic

national committee headquarters. much of bob woodward and carl bernstein's reporting relied heavily on confidential sources. most famously the man who came to be called deep throat. their work eventually helped bring down president richard nixon, forcing him to resign. woodward has written books about every president in almost half a century. but none like his latest. "fear" tells an extraordinary story about the trump administration. bob woodward, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. >> let's first explain why you began all those years ago when reporting on the watergate break-in. to use what was then a fairly unconventional technique, which was these confidential sources, sometimes called anonymous sources. >> well, they're not anonymous to us. i mean that's very important to understand. the reason carl bernstein and i used those confidential sources,

it's the only way you can get people to tell you the truth. they were not going to go out and if you said, gee, this is on the record, you're going to get the press release version, the official version. of course in watergate, there were so many secrets that were buried and hidden. so how are you going to do that? you have to find people who will be truth tellers where you can establish -- and this is the key -- a relationship of trust where you are going to protect them. you are going to check out the information from other sources. and so you present a version that is authentic and real rather than something that is manufacture manufactured. and in the case of the nixon presidency, just peppered with lies and deceit.

>> just to explain to people your process. when i was at "newsweek," i was cautious about anonymous sources because you don't want to create the opportunity for something that can't be checked. if you say something happened at a meeting and you have a quotation where say the president said something or the secretary of defense said something, how do you arrive at that quotation? >> from somebody who is there, you -- lots of people keep diaries. there are extensive votes. and in many cases, documentations of this. you can find other people in the room, and check it and then go back to the original source. this is the joy of having time so you can maybe work on one meeting or one event and you've done a great number of interviews. and checked it and you get to a

point where you have the best obtainable version of the truth. >> and you have notes on all of this which include the sources, which eventually go into, i think it's yale university, right, where somebody at some point will be able to figure out from your notes, from your documentation who told you what? >> yes. and most specifically, i tape recorded these interviews with nearly everyone. i have thousands of pages of documents, hundreds of hours with people who were participants. and the agreement with the sources was, i'm not going to name you, but i'm going to use this information if i can verify it. so i was able to do that. and you are exactly right. somebody is going to be able to go back and do an archaeological

dig as they've done on watergate, carl bernstein's and my papers are at the university of texas. all the notes. all the data. all the story drafts. and people have gone and looked at that. >> and it's fair to remind people that your most important source, mark felt, publicly denied he had leaked going to you. >> yes, and he was number two in the fbi. and he was quite clever about it because he said i'm not deep throat and if i was deep throat, i would deny it. and so he was able to have it both ways for a long time until 33 years later, he came out and identified himself as that source. >> when i read the book, what i'm struck by is the degree of chaos that you describe. all of which centers around a president who seems, you know,

somewhat impulsive to listen to the person who last talked to him. he pits his advisers against each other almost deliberately. how much of that is normal? >> pitting one adviser against another is absolutely acceptable. lots of presidents do this. they want to have the debate. what happens in the trump white house, and i think the book shows in chapter and verse, it's trump against the facts. and the experts will come in, for instance, only you could probably write a long paper about the world trade organization. but trump, in one session, says this is the worst organization in the world. we lose all of the fights. this is where we go and make complaints about unfair trade practices. and the experts, the aides come

in and say, oh, 85.7% of the cases we win. and trump says, no, no, that's -- that's wrong. and they say call your trade representative. these are the facts. no. trump is just -- he closes down. will not listen. it is the absence of an open mind. i mean, you know so well that anybody in any business or institution, it's very important that they grow and learn and listen. the capacity to really listen is very important in a leadership decision-making role. >> stay with me. next on "gps," bob woodward will tell me why trump's senior most officials describe something as the big problem with president trump. what is it? and is there a solution? when we come back.

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and we are back with bob woodward, the author of the runaway best-seller "fear." bob, you describe jim mattis, among others, but jim mattis principally, as saying there is a big problem with donald trump. and this recurs through the book. describe what mattis and gary cohn see as the big problem. >> what is really important and has not been reported until this book that there was an alliance between the secretary of defense, james mattis, and gary cohn, the chief economic adviser. and they had lunch in the pentagon and said we've got to get the president in some

environment off site, away from television, away from the chaos of the white house and give him an education about this old world order. so they call him over to the tank, which is the meeting place of the joint chiefs of staff. what mattis describes to the president is the great gift of the greatest generation to americans, and that is this rules based international order. you have trade. you have the security agreements like nato and the secret intelligence partnerships. and that's the old framework. you can't just ignore it and destroy it. and trump wants to do that. and you see everyone fighting him on it. and at the end, mattis is just depleted. feels totally frustrated.

in the case of secretary of state tillerson at that point, this is when, as nbc reported accurately, he calls the president -- said the president was an f'ing moron. this is a big problem, but it doesn't get solved. >> so is this sort of web of alliances, the trade deals, the nato, security relationships that undergurds the stability, creates the open world economy. and trump, in the book, is constantly lashing out at it because he sees that we're paying too much. why don't we bring the troops home? is it your sense that, for example, on south korea, when people explain to him, if you brought the troops home, you'd still have to pay for them and it would cost more because south korea subsidizes the cost, unless you intend to disband those troops in south korea. is there any indication that he

learns in office? >> well, that's part of the problem. but then he gets -- see, this is, at times, driven by his anger. there is a missile interceptor system called thaad. it costs a billion dollars per year but it's the best in the world and no one has anything like it. and trump asks about it and they tell him, oh, it's a good deal because we have a 99-year lease. and trump says, well, who pays for it? and they say, oh, we pay for it. and trump goes, you know, why are we doing this? take the f'ing thing out. put it in portland. portland, oregon. and this makes no military, strategic or intelligence sense. >> you point out in one very telling anecdote which i assume

you got from steve bannon that bannon tries to point out to him that he's going to have a problem running for the primary for the republican nomination because he really has never voted in a primary. and he says, no, no, i voted for 30 years in every one. and bannon says to him, no, you haven't. he says, yes, i have. he said it's a matter of public record. you've only voted once in 1988. and then he says, yeah, i guess that's right. >> it's not only steve bannon, but it's dave bossy who is another campaign aide but he makes all sorts of sweeping declarations. they point out that he's given all this money to democrats. he said, no, it's not true. they said here the records are and it proves it. well, that's okay. i'll just power over that essentially, which, of course, is the trump style. and when your president in the

end, i think that there are about two or three moments where you're making really critical decisions. what are we going to do with the financial crisis in 2008? what's the response going to be? what are we going to do about the 9/11 terrorist attack? and you go to process. process really matters. it's almost funny if it didn't make you cry that general kelly when he's -- he comes in as chief of staff last year, he wants to write out certain rules. and one of the rules is you can't make decisions on the fly, by the seat of your pants. and they say to the president, they write it out. if you're going to make a decision, we have to have a formal decision memo that you

will sign and seat of the pants decisions don't count. they're not considered final. and this is a management system which -- and this is why i call it a nervous breakdown of the presidency. >> bob woodward, always a pleasure to have you on. thank you, sir. >> thank you. yesterday was the tenth anniversary of the collapse of the wall street bank lehman brothers. it was a watershed moment in the global financial crisis. what would happen if a crisis of that magnitude happened today? the news isn't so good. i'll explain when we come back. this is not a screensaver. this is the destruction of a cancer cell by the body's own immune system, thanks to medicine that didn't exist until now. and today can save your life. ♪

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now for our what in the world segment. >> wall street on red alert. investment banking giant lehman brothers saying it will file for bankruptcy. >> yesterday marked the ten-year anniversary of the collapse of one of the largest investment banks in the world. the fall of lehman brothers began a global financial crisis and recession. banks seized up, private borrowing virtually ceased. global trade cratered.

anniversaries continued to inspire reflection and search for lessons. that exercise is morimportant in this case because another one is sure to come. after the 2008 crisis, many condemned the speculation in mortgage-backed securities and believed that it's crucial that we identify and pop such bubbles much earlier. but speculation is part of capitalism. recall the south sea bubble. the dutch tuna boom. the railroad craze. the dotcom boom. and today the number of people speculating on bitcoin probably well exceeds the number of people who can explain what bitcoin actually is. there will always be hard markets and people will pile into them. there will be another crisis. the real question is, when and how can we respond to it? the three architects of the 2008 recovery, hank paulson, timothy geithner and ben bernanke raise an alarm in "the new york times." they write the economic crisis was mitigated by emergency

powers that the fed, the fdic and the treasury no longer fully possess. the post crisis dodd/frank act limits certain emergency loans or guarantees on assets that agencies can make. in some cases requiring congressional approval. their diagnosis is right, but it only hints at the real problem. the political consensus that allowed for washington's speedy response to the crisis in 2008 has since been destroyed. look at t.a.r.p., the $700 billion bank bailout passed by the house and senate and signed into law by a republican administration within three weeks of lehman's collapse. the level of cross-party coordination to get the thing out reads like a utopian fantasy today. george bush, recall, was a deeply unpopular republican in the waning months of his presidency. at one point his treasury secretary hank paulson got down on one knee and begged nancy pelosi not to blow up the bill.

presidential nominees john mccain and barack obama, bitter rivals on the stump, both lobbied for votes while campaigning against each other. on the second try, the bill did clear the house with the votes of 91 republicans and 172 democrats. through the bailouts, washington saved the american and perhaps the global economy. but trust in public institutions never recovered. just ahead of bush's first term, 44% of americans recorded a high level of trust in the federal government. at the height of the financial crisis, that number was 24%. last year, it was down to 18%. the crisis gave way to the rise of populism at home and in europe. in the united states, this translated to a remarkable fraying of the left and a hostile takeover of the right. so when the next financial crisis hits, the real problem will be, any response will require a substantial degree of bipartisan cooperation and fast.

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ask your healthcare provider for the simple blood test. for us it's time to get tested. it's the only way to know for sure. so here we are ten years after the collapse of lehman, precipitated the global financial crisis. we haven't had a crisis since, which means, according to some observers, we're overdue for

one. the question is, where will it come from? and what is likely to start this new financial fire? i've asked two great minds in financial journalism to come together to look into the future. andrew ross sorkin is an editor and columnist at "the new york times" and the author of "too big to fail." a new edition of the book has just been published. and zanny minton beddoes is the editor in chief of "the economist" which just published its 175th anniversary edition. a real blockbuster. zanny, let me start with you. the recovery is either the longest or second longest in american history. people say these things don't go on forever. what is the state of the american economy? are we due for a recession? >> well, at some point we will definitely have another recession. but i want to separate two things because you started talking about a financial crisis and now you're talking about a recession. it's important to distinguish between those. we will definitely have another recession. and we will at some point definitely have another

financial crisis. but we may well next time have a recession without a cataclysmic financial crisis. what could cause a recession in they tend not to die of old age. probably it's had something to do with the federal reserve. if the federal reserve tightens policy too much, then it could tip the economy into recession, particularly as the sugar rush of the trump tax cuts wears off. on the other hand, if it moves too slowly and inflation starts rising, then it will have to damp down quick and that could push the economy into recession. i don't know what will cause it, but like you, i'm very sure that at some point there will be another recession. >> and the crisis. andrew, when you look around at the world, what seems to you kind of unsustainable? is there something that, like, there were people saying at the time -- >> i'm less worried today about a classic run on the bank style crisis like 2008. what i'm much more worried about is the distrust that was -- has

been created as a function of that crisis and not just the distrust in the united states of government and institutions and elites and the idea of experts which unto itself is a problem. but the populism and nationalism that it's created not just here but everywhere. you think about a financial crisis. when i wrote "too big to fail" we wrote about that in the context of banks. now in the state of municipalities, cities, states, countries. you think about our relationships with our allies, the trade fights were already starting to see. at some point the chinese say, you know what? we're not so sure we want to buy your debt at these prices anymore. at some point do our allies say we don't trust you in the way we used to? and that to me is what -- if there's going to be another big one, it's much more likely that something like that would precipitate it. >> and zanny, that's exactly the kind of thing that you're talking about in your very robust defense of free trade liberalism. you're worried about a world that's moving toward trade wars

and worse. >> yeah. we are in our anniversary issue this week, we've written a man festo for renewing liberalism because we feel that right now credo of liberal democracy which has been so much to promote prosperity around the world is under attack. it's under attack domestically by the rise of populism and nationalism both -- on both sides of the atlantic and also because we see in the form of china a rising economy, the world's biggest economy in the 21st century, which is profoundly illiberal. >> zanny, is the next crisis, you want to potentially that you'd worry about, you know, kind of a result of that which would be a conflict between the united states and china? certainly the conflict between the two largest economies in the world could easily tip the world, let alone the united states into a recession? >> absolutely. that could be cataclysmic and out of control trade war is one

of the things i worry about. i also worry about the euro area which is the one bit of the post-2008 crisis which hasn't really been fixed. it's massively been papered over. and the third thing i'd leave you with perhaps is the incredible rise in dollar borrowing. outside the united states. which has been huge, that increase in the last few years. in a world where we have less trust, less willingness to work together, that really worries me. remember in ten years ago in 2008, after the lehman failure, the world's biggest economies came together. they created something called the g20 which was a new club. and a new club essentially designed to bring the world's biggest economies together to work together to get out of the crisis. can you imagine that happening now? >> so where does that leave you, andrew? does it make you think the united states, you know, how should it handle the reality of this world? what is -- you know, if you had a magic wand if you had

president trump's ear, either of them, what would you tell them? >> i would try desperately to re-establish a sense of trust with these other countries. a sense that we are operating in a responsible way, a sense that we want to be a leader, not just of america and america first, but of a world and to some degree a world order. and i think that if we can get that sense of credibility back, i think it would help us tremendously. i do want to throw one other crisis that i worry about a lot out. and it's not again a classic one. it's the one of cyber. people don't talk about it enough. but when you think about a true panic, i very much worry about waking up in the morning looking in my bank account and seeing zero. and that's something i think we all have to worry about given the size and magnitude of these institutions today. people talk about these

institutions being too big to fail. that's how they're too big to fail. >> all right. that is a sobering point to end on. andrew ross sorkin and zanny minton beddoes, thank you. next on "gps," pope francis has been a wildly popular pope. now he has a big problem, one that threatens to bring down his papacy. i'll talk to "the new york times'" ross douthat about that. and there's no shortcut to the right way. so when we roll out the nation's first 5g network, it'll be because we were the first to install millions of miles of fiber optics. and we'll be the first to upgrade the towers and put up the small cells that will power the smart cities of the future. when i started at verizon, i knew i was joining a team that was pushing the industry forward. now, with the launch of the only 5g ultra wideband network, we're doing it again. this time, changing the way we learn,

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and that these forests can be sustained and enjoyed by the community in the future. the mood seems light in this picture of the pope as he met with officials from the u.s. bishop's conference on thursday, but the topic was heavy. the american contingent travelled to rome after a one-time vatican ambassador alleged that top vatican officials knew about sex abuse allegations against former washington cardinal mccarrick. but didn't act. the vatican ambassador says he even told pope francis himself about the allegations.

also last month, pennsylvania released a report that found that more than 300 priests in that state had abused over 1,000 children over the last 70 years. now many states around the country have announced renewed investigations into the catholic church and child sex abuse. of course it is not a problem limited to the united states. earlier this week, pope francis ordered the presidents of all of the catholic bishop conferences worldwide to come to the vatican in february for a meeting to discuss, quote, the protection of minors, unquote. i wanted to talk about all of this with ross douthat. he's an op-ed columnist for "the new york times" and the author of a book "to change the church -- pope francis and the future of catholicism." so this is good time with the book because what you are describing in a way is another set of controversies. and it seems like this child abuse controversy, which has flared up, intersects with another one. >> it's the two big crises in

the last 50 or 70 years of catholicism intersecting. one is the crisis of sex abuse and the srths this long-running conflict about basically how much the church can change to adapt to modernity, the sexual revolution, modern culture and everything else. and the two have always been intertwined in a sense so far as arguments about priest sex abuse have turned into arguments about whether priests should be ce celibate, or about whether the church should ordain women or have more women in positions of power. pope francis is seen, accurately, as a liberalizer. as someone who wants the church to change and his accusers, including the airrchbishop you mentioned who has said that cardinal mccarrick was known to be a predator in the vatican and nobody acted on it, are conservatives. so this is being read through the lens of liberal conservative battles in the church and the

sex abuse crisis. >> would it be fair to say you have conservative critics of francis who are taking this opportunity to weaken a liberal pope? >> yes. i think it would be fair to say that. but that doesn't get us to the heart of the question, right, which is what francis knew and when did he know it. the truth is, there is an impasse. >> what i mean is these guys have been on the side of, shall we say, inaction and covering up in the past. >> no, that -- so that part i think is a misapprehension. the sex abuse crisis has cut across the lines of liberal and conservative within the church. you have conservative bishops who are cover-up artists and liberal bishops who are cover-up artists. you have these two competing theorys of what went wrong. one theory is the church didn't liberalize enough. it should let these men get married and do away with celibacy. the other thing is that a kind of laxness, a moral laxness led to this climate in seminaries

and among archbishops that let mccarrick get away with it. and those two people who hold those different views can agree on the protection of children. the reality is the church in the u.s. has made great strides on the protection of children. but they can't agree on how to deal with what is a catholic me too moment where the subject is on both sort of bishops and archbishops who covered things up in the past but also were predators themselves. >> how dangerous a moment is this for pope francis? >> i mean, it's pretty dangerous. it's, you know, it's a situation where you have an actual vatican insider, even though archbishop vigano is associated with conservatives and is a theological critic of the pope, he's also in a position to know a lot of things that are sort of kept in files deep in the vatican and in the u.s. so there's a question here of basically how bad is it for francis? if it's just that people knew

about mccarrick, he was put under some modest sanction by benedict and francis didn't pay enough attention to it, then i think he should simply apologize, fire a bunch of people and his papacy can continue. i think the fact that he's refused to answer questions and sort of taken a kind of stonewalling and counteraccusatory approach raises the question of what's really in all of those files that may not come out in the next six months, but, you know, as we know from the trump era in our own politics, leaks tend to happen over time when scandal is involved. >> and where do you think the church is going? because your book is, in a sense, cautionary. you're not the biggest fan of pope francis. you think that he is too liberal and making the church lose sight of what it stands for. >> i think there's a danger in francis' liberalization that it loses touch -- the church needs to change, but some changes compromise core christian ideas

and teachings. but my, you know, when i wrote the book, i ended in bafflement and uncertainty about where the church goes next. and this return of the sex abuse crisis has, in certain ways, only increased that. you have this kind of stalemate between often older theological liberals, younger theological conservatives. the church has a billion people worldwide. every context and culture is different. the papacy is an incredibly difficult job. obviously in the short term, this further discredits the institutional church in the western world. but in terms of what happens next and where the church goes, only god really knows. >> that is the first time somebody has said that on "gps," ross douthat. >> the limits of punditry have been reached. >> thank you. we will be right back. from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase sensimist relieves your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. it helps block six key inflammatory substances.

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now for this week's question. what surprising person or entity won a creative arts emmy award this week? facebook? the department of homeland security? nasa's jet propulsion laboratory? or kellyanne conway. stay tuned. my recommendation this week is for a movie, not a book. "detroit." made by catherine bigelow, the director of "zero dark thirty." it's a true story that happened in 1968 in detroit, the year when tensions and rioting erupted in dozens of cities across the united states. it's a totally gripping, harrowing story superbly portrayed on screen that will leave you sadder but wiser.

and now for the last look. this is the world poverty clock. it gives a live countdown of the number of people escaping extreme poverty every single day. for more than two decades, extreme poverty has been declining around the world. the global poverty rate has been cut by more than half since 1990, according to the world bank. it's one of the few feel-good stories of recent times, but we are now seeing a related statistic move in the opposite direction. take a look at this chart from the new u.n. report on global hunger. the number of undernourished people in the world steadily declined from 2005 to 2014, but the trend has now reversed. why are we seeing this trend worsening? in addition to wars and economic slowdowns, the report points to another leading cause of global hunger and food insecurity, extreme weather. severe droughts cause more than 80% of losses in agriculture and an increase in tsunamis and

large storms is influencing the fishing industry. without major changes addressing these challenges, the report warns the world will struggle to meet the u.n. sustainable development goal of eradicating global hunger by 2030. as the head of food and climate policy for oxfam, great britain said a hotter world is proving to be a hungrier world. the answer to my gps challenge is c. nasa's jet propulsion laboratory won an emmy award for outstanding original interactive program at the creative arts emmy awards. jpl won for the spell-binding coverage of the casini mission's final finale. after 20 years in space, the casini orbiter was running out of fuel. jpl began a campaign to showcase the spacecraft's achievements before its final act, a plunge into saturn. casini traveled 4.9 billion miles, completed 294 orbits of

saturn, discovered six named moons and took more than 453,000 images, including the final images of saturn snapped just before it burned into the atmosphere. congratulations to all involved. and thank you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. hey. i'm brian stelter. this is "reliable sources." our weekly look at the story behind the story of how the media really works, how the news gets made and how all of us can make it better. a new era at cbs. the company searching for a new ceo and new head of "60 minutes." what's going to happen to america's top news magazine? plus, michael avenatti is here live for his first interview about this fight with tucker carlson. and later, an unprecedented milestone. "the washington post's" fact-checker says even he was surprised by how fast trump hit the 5,000 falsehood mark.