saturn, discovered six named moons and took more than 453,000 images, including the final images of saturn snapped just before it burned into the atmosphere. congratulations to all involved. and thank you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. hey. i'm brian stelter. this is "reliable sources." our weekly look at the story behind the story of how the media really works, how the news gets made and how all of us can make it better. a new era at cbs. the company searching for a new ceo and new head of "60 minutes." what's going to happen to america's top news magazine? plus, michael avenatti is here live for his first interview about this fight with tucker carlson. and later, an unprecedented milestone. "the washington post's" fact-checker says even he was surprised by how fast trump hit the 5,000 falsehood mark.

as we begin, here's another one to add to the list. on saturday evening, president trump tweeted about hurricane florence, now tropical depression florence saying five deaths have been recorded thus far with regards to the hurricane. he said deepest seems and warmth go out to the friends and families of the victims. may god be with them. he said five people had died but at the time, cnn and fox and the ap were all already reporting the death toll stood at the least 11. the latest reporting by cnn is that the death toll is up to 13. unfortunately that death toll will likely rise. this is just one of thousands of examples of the president getting it wrong. right there again saying five deaths have been recorded. this is his government doing the recording of the deaths. there's no word on where trump got that number or why he added an exclamation point. there's been no correction or update yet. here's the point. if the white house can't get the small stuff right, it makes you worry about the big stuff.

i think you should be worried because the president continues to spread conspiracy theories, even about hurricanes. he does this to evade responsibility, to deflect blame and to keep his fans fired up. but we in the press corps have to keep calling it out. we can't get immune to this. obviously, his worst theory this week was about puerto rico. suggesting the death toll in the wake of hurricane maria was inflated by democrats to make him look bad. death toll denialism. i really never thought i'd see the day. while news outlets try to explain where that 2,975 total came from, about how the study was conducted, trump did find support, as always, from his media enablers. >> the numbers were inflated, and the president was right to call out the organizations who threw out science, statistics and evidence to discredit the trump administration. >> okay, lou. all right, trump world embraces conspiracy theories because the truth is not on the president's

side. puerto rico is just the most recent example. we all know how the president attacks the robert mueller probe as an illegal witch hunt. even just an hour ago, even in the wake of paul manafort's guilty plea. the evidence this is a legal probe is overwhelming but the conspiracy theory that it's a witch hunt makes the president feel good. and that's not the only one. let's go through the list. the idea of a deep state. that's a conspiracy theory. so is the idea that the fake news colludes and works together to take him down. all of these are really sinister conspiracy theories. of course, the one that always stands out is the illegal voting theory. the idea that millions of people voted illegally in 2016, robbing trump of the popular vote. this is actually one of the only common threads of the trump presidency. his embrace of conspiracy theories. and i understand, it can feel good to believe in some fantasy to believe that there are external forces that are out to get you, rather than facing reality. but this is reliable sources so

let's face reality with brendan. a professor of public policy at the university of michigan who studies this for a living. and amanda carpenter is here. cnn political commentator and author of a book all about this "gaslighting america." brendan, normally conspiracy theories are about the people in power, right? it's not about the person in power spreading these lies. >> that's what's so remarkable about it, brian. donald trump has become the conspiracy theorist in chief. he's in the most powerful office in the world and he's promoting conspiracy theorys. theyu urur urure are used by th powerless. he's leveraging the intense part of american politics to do it. it's a dangerous combination and not one we've seen in contemporary american politics before. it's much more like countries abroad where authoritarian leaders use it.

that's a worrisome comparison. as i often say on twitter, what would you say if you saw this in another country? the comparisons that come to mind are not our fellow democratic leaders. and -- >> so what would you say? >> that underscores how unusual he is. >> what would you say if a man in another country, another man in power in another country suggested the death toll wasn't what he all believe it was. >> it becomes an assault on our shared understanding of reality. that's what we've seen in other countries where misinformation and conspiracy theories are weaponized by the governing regime. that's not a road we should be comfortable going down. it's not one we should pretend is normal dishonesty. every politician makes false statements but this is something different entirely and it's about real people's lives. these people in puerto rico, what happened to them is real. we sometimes act like what's on twitter is a reality show. but donald trump is trying to evade accountability for something that upset the lives

of thousands of our fellow citizens and maybe even is responsible for the deaths of thousands of our fellow citizens. that is deadly serious. >> by pushing these, he's stoking resentment of democrats or of the media or researchers, scientists. what was your reaction to this ongoing messaging that he's coming out with about puerto rico? >> well, to me it's nothing new because floating these conspiracy theories is really a way for him to deflect responsibility. and if you look at some of the defining narratives of his presidency, which is why i think brendan is right to call him a conspiracy theorist in chief. three things come to mind. the deep state, the rigged election and fake news. what makes this sort of awkward is that we expect donald trump as president of the united states to be a defender of major institutions. yet we have a president who is floating these theories that get to the credibility of these institutions. and so he continues to stoke this us versus them mentality,

even while we look to him to protect these major things that we look towards. that's what makes this really awkward. and the thing that moves this into a dangerous realm is when the president of the united states does this is that political conspiracies can be more dangerous because at some point if you think there's big, terrible things happening, people want to take action. and that may be something more than voting. >> yeah, and there's been this up tick in his conspiratorial thinking over time. i want to show how this can do real harm. in this case to trump's party. a real example from today's "new york times." it's a really interesting -- results of a study from a pro-trump pac. conservative leaning voters in the study routinely dismiss the possibility of a democratic wave election, a blue wave, with some describing the prospect as fake news. so that's what the research found. axios has found something very similar and reported on something similar in recent weeks. the idea here is that the president is calling the polls

fake. he's saying the blue wave is not real. and so as a result, his voters will not show up at the polls and it could depress the voter turnout. what do you make of that? >> it's a remarkable turn of events. he's become the boy who cried wolf. he's delegitimized all other sources of information to his supporters and they're not believing what is in their political self-interest to believe. now that's a kind of ironic event but i think we should worry about the implications of this when the stakes become more serious. when it's not just about which party wins an election, but it's about matters of even life or death. the president -- >> it was great to see -- >> emergency alerts to every american cell phone. what if they don't believe what's sent to them? what if they don't believe authorities who tell them to evacuate in the face of an upcoming hurricane. >> this is a test of the fema alert system coming up. totally normal. any government would do it. this is not a trump thing. however, because it's going to be labeled presidential alert

and only 3 % of americans trust the president, i'm worried about the lack of credibility and how that's -- this is a real world example about lack of credibility affects the government. >> that's right. that's right. imagine there was a crisis with north korea right now. i don't think the president could speak credibly to all americans. they might have to send general mattis or someone else out to speak on behalf of the government so that people would accept the information that's being provided. >> right. brendan, thank you. amanda, stay with us. we're going to take a quick break and then dissect "the new york times" big screw-up involving nikki haley. we'll get into that and also go live to the carolinas for the latest update on tropical depression florence. depression is a misnomer. this storm is still drenching the region. this story is getting more important over time. we'll go live to a rescue boat in the carolinas in the minutes ahead.

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my ci can worry about it,ine. or do something about it. garlique® helps maintain healthy cholesterol naturally. and it's odor free. and pharmacist recommended. garlique.® what was "the new york times" thinking? look at this headline published the other day in the paper of record. nikki haley's view of new york is priceless. curtains, $52,000. the story gave the impression she was wasting taxpayer money that it was all pinned on her.

if you read past the headline there was a startling contradicti contradiction. the story said haley had no say in the purchase. this was arranged during the obama years. a result of a move out of the waldorf astoria because a chinese organization bought that hotel and they needed a new apartment for the u.n. ambassador. all of it was explained in the story but by then there was a lot of criticism of the times, rightly so, for this big screw-up. marco rubio and others taking swipes at the media along the way. where were the editors of "the new york times"? they reviewed the story and were forced to issue a correction. placed right at the top of the story. the story was rewritten to fix all of these flaws. let's get into this and a couple other media issues with oliver darsey. and amanda carpenter is back with me. amanda, your reaction to this? >> how did this even get published? most people get their news through social media. the two ways you consume that

news are the headline and the picture. those were both bad selections by the "times" and without the headline that story quickly falls apart unless you want to talk about the high price of curtains which, fine, go ahead and do but that's not the message conveyed with the headline and the story. yes, "the new york times" fixed it. good on them, but that was long after major publications like "vogue" ran with the story. a democratic congressman from california who started calling for an investigation and is still standing by that because of that story. so there's some real damage done, but thankfully there are people like jake tapper willing to fact check that story and i think played a major role in getting it adjusted. >> oliver, you wrote about this when it happened, about this issue with "the times." this is a reporter who made a big mistake who may have a bad reputation there and where his editors were. this is about institutional bias at "the new york times" and a reflexive anti-trump bias? >> i think that's what is playing out, certainly in

conservative media. and you could make that argument but what i am most curious about is where was the editors? why did this get through? the story contradicted the headline. it said she had no say in the purchase of the curtains. >> the framing of the story. >> after the times editors reviewed the story, they came to the same conclusion. the story shouldn't be focused on nikki haley. maybe focus on the state department that purchased these expensive curtains. they rewrote the story to take her out of it. took her picture out. tweeted out a editor's note. they did correct it at the end of the day but the problem is the story had already been out there by then. it was spread around social media. >> no way to pull it back at that point. another example, a local fox station in dallas drew instant backlash for tweeting this terrible tweet about that 26-year-old youth pastor who was shot in his own apartment by a police officer. the tweet says there was a search warrant, marijuana found

in the apartment. and the internet basically reacted by saying, okay, why does that matter? why the heck is that being tweeted by this fox station? you also looked into this story and reported on this. how did the fox station handle this? >> they didn't -- it was opposite at the time. the times came out and corrected it, explained their error. the fox station didn't really do anything. they -- i contacted them. they said they would give them my message to the news director. never heard back. i called back. got forwarded to voice mail. >> they never tried to correct the tweet. >> they reframed the story online but the tweet still stayed up. and that was, again, on social media is where people get their news. so it's nice if they corrected their story online. they didn't really explain why or offer an editor's note but left the tweet up which was really bad. a low moment of the week. >> the insane implication there is if someone has pot in their apartment it's okay for the police to storm in and shoot

you? >> i think such outrage over that because everyone knows what the story is. an innocent person was shot in his home. it wasn't, oh, look, there may have been cause for the police officer to enter that apartment. the story was an innocent person was shot and that's why the tweet should have been taken down because it was promoting the wrong are two examples of newsroom screw-ups. here's an example of making a difference. this is the bob woodward book "fear." it's smashing records. 750,000 copies were sold up to the first day. now i'm told "fear" has well surpassed the 1 million sales mark. that's according to a source involved in the sales. the publisher will come out with updated numbers. but, you know, this is any author's dream. more than a million copies has sold. the reporting in the book, woodward is adding to what's been out there about dysfunction and chaos in the trump white house. but he's put a bow on it in a

way that hadn't been done before. >> right. and it's bob woodward, all right? so there was some questions about "fire and fury" and whether it was accurate. some said there were quotes made up. you're not seeing that here. you're seeing people -- >> you're seeing nondenial denials. it doesn't sound like the white house i know but they're not denying the claims in the book. >> woodward has been saying he has hundreds of hours of recordings and documents to support all of this stuff. so if they do come out and contradict something that he's -- has evidence for, that may be a problem, right? >> you mentioned "fire and fury" the only book that's sold better this year than "fear." we'll see if "fear" overtakes it. amanda, oliver, thank you for being here. a quick break and then an interview you have to see. this is michael avenatti standing by to weigh in on that face-off he had with tucker carlson. i'm going to ask about avenatti's 2020 approach right after a quick break.

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through internet essentials, comcast has connected more than six-million low-income people to low-cost, high-speed internet at home. i'm trying to do some homework here. so they're ready for anything. we've never seen a president like donald trump. but in my humble opinion, we will never see a future president unlike him. at least when it comes to his use of tv. i have a sneaking feeling that every u.s. president from here on out will be a television star of some sort. maybe a lawmaker who knows how to create a tv moment. or a governor who knows how to throw a really great rally. or a businesswoman who knows how to connect through the camera. any way you slice it, star power will be a prerequisite to the presidency. that's my hunch. and mr. apprentice is just the

beginning. so that hunch brings me to michael avenatti. he doesn't have much of a political record, but he does know his way around a tv studio. and the other day he went into the liberal lion's den of tucker carlson tonight. a show that's been calling him a creepy porn lawyer for months now. before the interview, tucker claimed he would be respectful. >> we've invited him on the show many times but he's always declined until tonight. he's now agreed provided we give him time to state his case and, of course, we're happy to do that. in the past he's also demanded we stop referring to him by a certain unflattering nickname. we haven't agreed to that demand but tonight we'll not use that nickname. >> and then the next 12 minutes tucker's show did use that nickname in all the banners on the screen. you'll see them here. stormy's lawyer as creepy porn president? avenatti turned it around on carlson like this. >> why is it that you don't call donald trump the creepy porn

president? he's the one that had sex with a four-month-old son at home wi without a condom. >> after he got off the show he called tucker's show trash tv. why did he show up there in the first place? michael avenatti is here to tell us why. michael, many democrats say no to fox's interview requests. many 2020 hopefuls. why did you say yes? >> well, brian, if you're going to be a fighter and fight for the future of this country and lead the democratic party, then you can't be ducking fights. and, frankly, sometimes you have to go into the belly of the beast, as they say, and take on some of these individuals, even if they're entirely unprofessional like tucker carlson. >> yeah, alexandria cortez was here earlier today on jake tapper's show. i was asking her about her fox strategy, about whether she'll ever go on fox. it's a very live issue among democrats. is it right to go on fox or not? you're saying you have to take

the fight to what you perceive as the enemy. do you feel you succeeded with tucker? >> i think i did succeed because i think tucker looked terrible coming out of that interview. he constantly spoke over me. i thought the use of the creepy porn lawyer at the bottom of the screen, which i was not aware of at the time, otherwise i would have called him out on it i thought that was completely unprofessional and uncalled for. and i think that tucker lost whatever monochrome of respect he had as a journalist as a result of that interview. >> he said he'd give you time to state your case. do you feel he followed through on that commitment? >> absolutely not. and another prerequisite was he was not going to interrupt me and talk over me and he continually did that and did not allow me to answer the questions. >> if you're going to be a fight eyou have to get used to people interrupting you? >> and i am used to that. if you look at that interview, i demonstrated an ability to deal with that to a certain degree. i was not given ample time to

deal with many of the ridiculous questions that he posed to me and the attacks start with the fact that i'm exploiting my client because she's still dancing in strip clubs. stormy daniels is dancing for one reason and one reason only. because stormy daniels wants to dance. anybody that has been paying attention over the last six months knows at this point in her life, nobody tells stormy what to do. and that includes me. >> there's been a lot of attention about whether you'll run for president in 2020. how serious are you at this moment in time about that? >> i am very serious, brian. and i'm getting more serious by the week because i'm traveling around the country and people are encouraging me to do it. and i'll also add that i listened to your hunch at the beginning of this segment and i could not agree with you more. the fact of the matter is, and people may not like this and we could have a debate about whether it's good for america or not but we live in a different media age. a different realm if you will. and whoever is going to aspire

to the presidency is going to need to understand what that realm entails and how to navigate it. and donald trump, you can say a lot of negative things about him, and i do, and i think he's completely unprepared for the office and he lacks the fabric to lead this nation, but if there's one thing that he understands, it's branding and how to navigate the media. >> i don't know -- i agree. i don't know if it's a good thing that star power and tv savvy is required for the job, but i think it is. and i think president obama also had a lot of tv star power and that helped him pre-trump. but trump is more evidence of this. and looking ahead to 2020, one reason i'm taking you seriously as a contender is because of your presence on cable news. i want to show a headline about this. bill share wrote about this saying you're currently leading the pack among 2020 contenders on the democratic side. he thinks that's a bad thing. you could be damaging the rest of the field and the country by taking away attention from

traditional politicians who have more experience in this. what do you say to them? >> well, i completely disagree with that on a number of fronts. first of all, on thursday, "the new york times" published an op-ed that i wrote relating to the indictment of the president that dealt with some complicated constitutional law matters. i've got 20 years of experience at a very high level as an attorney. i understand how governmental regulations passed, how laws are passed, how the supreme court works. i've got an extreme depth of knowledge. but more importantly, brian, if i decide to enter this fight, i think it will be good for the democratic party because whoever emerges from the field, whether it be me or someone else, at that point we'll be prepared to take on donald trump and win in 2020, which is the most important thing, i believe, that the future of the republic is at stake in the 2020 election. and the democrats cannot afford to lose it for the benefit of the nation. >> but i'm concerned sometimes you fall into some trumpian

tactics. for example, at one point earlier this year you threatened a daily caller reporters for the defamation suit. how is that appropriate for anybody running for office? >> well, if a journalist, quote/unquote" and i don't believe the daily callers are journalists by any -- >> that's very trumpy. that's very trumpy trying to drive a wedge between real and fake journalists. >> well, no, i disagree. i don't think all journalists are created equal. i don't believe many journalists adhere to the same standards as you and others at cnn or "the new york times" or "the washington post." just like all attorneys are not ethical, all journalists do not adhere to the requisite standards of journalism. a lot of people have written a lot of negative things about me and they'll continue to do so, and i don't have a problem with that. that's what this nation is all about. when people engage in tactics that do not meet basic journalistic standards and meet things up, from time to time, i'm going to call them out on it.

>> what about blocking critics. you blocked jon favreau and some other dems. if you want to be a fighter, why would you go blocking people on twitter? >> jon favreau is not blocked, frankly. >> he was. >> we can have a discussion about -- i'll be happy to have a discussion on favreau. if people come up -- >> no, in general. >> yeah, but, brian, let me just finish. so i'm a private citizen. if people come on my twitter feed and they attack me for no reason or they engage in profanity or hurl insults at me, i have the ability to block them from my feed. now they can go on their own feed or other social media channels and say what they want about me. it's a free country. but they don't need my feed to do it. i'm a private citizen. if i want to block somebody on twitter, i can do it. >> on twitter yesterday you challenged tucker carlson to a debate. come on. what are the odds. you think he's going to say yes? >> no, i don't think there's any chance he's going to say yes because he doesn't want to engage with me in a legitimate

debate where we can answer questions and ask questions about real issues. he would rather engage in his clown show of a tv show like he did on thursday night. and i think he looked terrible. >> but you'll keep appearing on fox, if asked, or maybe not? >> well, i think from time to time, i will under the right circumstances, but i think that i was treated with complete disrespect the other night. i don't think anyone should have to deal with that. and certainly you and others on other stations would never treat any guest like that. >> i don't think you seem that creepy, but that's just me. >> thank you. >> michael, thanks for being here. tucker carlson was also the subject of this week's "reliable sources" podcast. we had a conversation with ly lens. check it out on apple, spotify or your favorite podcast app. an update on tropical depression florence and a look inside cbs in the wake of two dramatic departures. fresh reporting about the future

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cbs will never be the same, and that's a good thing. since this time last week, c cbs ceo les moonves and the executive producer jeff fager have both left the company amid sexual misconduct allegations which they both denied. now the future of "60 minutes" is up in the air. it's one of the most important, most acclaimed programs on

american tv. but there have been whispers about fager, the boss of the show. whispers about his behavior for a while. and ronan farrow's reporting in the new yorker brought that out into the open. jericka duncan was one of the reporters following up. when she asked him for comment the other day, he replied with a text that said in part, be careful. there are people who have lost their jobs trying to harm me. that's, obviously, a threat. that's obviously intimidating language from a powerful news executive. so that gave cbs a reason to fire fager, even though the official investigations into harassment allegations are still going on. and are going to be going on for several more weeks to come. so now cbs needs a new head of "60 minutes." there's a long list of people trying to apply, according to the folks i've spoken with. this is a plum job. lots of people want to be a part of the future of "60 minutes." but the company has to find a new ceo of the entire company and that's causing a scramble in

hollywood. let's talk about both of those stories with janice min, the former editor of the hollywood reporter. janice, thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> moonves, first. he stepped down last sunday night. no one knows if he'll get $120 million as a result or zero or something in between. what's the scuttlebutt about what's going to happen at the top of cbs now? >> i think you can't underestimate the significance of les moonves as a ceo here. to a lot of people they would say he is the equivalent to hollywood. to what steve jobs was to apple. cbs is les moonves. and to try to replace him is going to be a challenge. this is the thing, though. les moonves played this larger than life role. unbelievably charismatic. a reason you'd always -- he'd always have himself put on, let's say, a grammy's broadcast or walk a red carpet or open up the up fronts.

he was a bilg showman. he was marketing hollywood and selling old school linear broadcast television. so, obviously, he was in a slightly weakened state because of the situation with redstone and there's an opening to change what cbs is. he did a great job making cbs probably look better than what it actually is, which is, you know, a network that creates programming for people in their, you know, i think you would kindly say people in their 50s, likely 60s and older. they have not made huge inroads in the streaming war. and if you look at what disney did with fox, that content acquisition, the acquisition of content there was to help populate disney's upcoming streaming service. cbs is not even really in the same level of discussion. they have cbs all access. but looking forward, they are going to have to find a new

hybrid executive, not someone who is going to try to sell old school hollywood but someone who can sort of manage new hollywood. >> and bring the company more into a digital future. and what about "60 minutes" and jeff fager. he was only the second boss of the show in its history. >> right. >> he ran that place. really barely even a part of the rest of cbs news. what does it tell us about his ouster and about the fact they have not lined up a successor yet. now cbs has to go out and find a new executive producer. >> right. well, i think i want to say that one of the things that someone said to me who is a longtime cbs veteran last night said that fager's text that he sent to the reporter, that is classic les moonves culture. that's him -- that was fager sort of echoing the style of les moonves. i spoke to another well-known hollywood executive who said les is a bully. he was talking about les' social

prospects moving forward because he was also the prom king with julie chen, prom queen of hollywood. and he's -- he said he's toast, which was interesting to hear. but also that he's a bully and the thing we've learned in all of this is that bullies, their behavior shows up in all sorts of different ways in business dealings but obviously we're seeing with women. with "60 minutes" it's the gold standard of news programming. and it also has been a boys club. and i was -- i was talking to the son of sandy sokolow last night. and sandy sowas the executive producer for walter krcronkite. courting the old guys. that meant paying a lot of homage to, obviously, to d don hewitt. you've seen this lineage of white guys that have been handed the thrown over -- passing this

over from one to the other. and now there's a real moment to create something different. i've always been shocked with, you know, when people have talked about who is going to take the fox news job or cnn or any of these top news jobs that women are never in the mix. i don't think it's because they're not qualified. it's because never been part of the club. >> the head of fox news is a woman for the first time. >> yes, yes. and so susan sarinsky who i'm told is incredible. i don't know her personally. tonya simon, who is someone i went to college with and would love to see get the job. i'd love to see those two names out there. >> two prominent women at cbs who could get the job. >> which is very gratifying to see. >> janice, thanks for being here. great to see you. >> thanks. great to see you. quick break here and then a very unpresidential milestone. we're going to talk with the fact-checker at "the washington post" about trump's 5,000

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joining going to the "washington post" in 601 days, president trump has made 55001 false or misleading claims. the untruths have been stacking up at a furious rate. it's been accelerating in recent months. trump broke his own daily record. on one day he made 125 false or misleading statements in a period of time that totalled about 120 minutes. just see if you can lie that much in two hours. imagine what this is like for fact checkers. i spoke with the "washington post" fact checker about this. the editor and chief writer of

the "washington post" fact checker column joins me now. glen, you have been keeping this tally since day one of the trump presidency but did you think we would get here to this 5,000 mark so soon? >> no. it's a big surprise. in january he only cross it had 2,000 mark in eighth months he's made three thousand false or misleading claims.ed the 2,000 mark in eighth months he's made three thousand false or misleading claims. >> you have the data to prove this. you say summertime was especially bad if by bad we mean there were more untruths and what happened after labor day? >> what happened after labor day was the bob woodward book came out as well as the anonymous op-ed in the "new york times" and he went and went to a rally in montana and then went to a couple fund-raisers in north dakota and over those two days he made about 200 false or

misleading claims. in fact on the second day it was 125 false or misleading claims. he had a few local interviews, he spoke to reporters on air force one and he tends to increase his frequency when he feels under pressure. >> under pressure. he definitely has felt under pressure this month. >> it's pretty astonishing because when we started this originally just the first 100 days he was averaging less than five false claims a day. what's noteworthy about president trump is even as it's been repeatedly fact checked as false he continues to say these things. >> so the theory would be he he's either engaging in propaganda but saying something bogus over and over again to get us to believe it or as you suggest he doesn't know the truth and doesn't want to know the truth. do you have a guess about which is the reality? >> it may well be a combination.

i experience is that president trump is very situational. he -- he may firmly believe something today even though he might the next day contradict it. >> contradictions are frequent, that's a good point. >> so you see that in bob woodward's book and other reporting that at that moment it's something he firmly believes even if is a complete flip-flop of what he said before. >> you always say false or misleading claims. tell me about that term versus the "l" word, lie. >> well, we tend not to use the "l" word, lie, we've done it once in his presidency. i can't get into someone's head, i can't determine whether -- you cannot determine whether or not someone is purposely saying something not true and the president is a range of things.

sometimes he says something that is absolutely false such as he's presiding over the best u.s. economy in u.s. history or passed the biggest tax cut in the hus history but others are misleading or lack important context so we try to categorize those things, statements that are made to mislead or misinform people. >> and you have, of course, a scale, one to four pin "newsroom tokyo" co-- pinocchios. do you have find there has to be a fifth, you have to increase your pinocchios because it's so off the wall? >> no, but we are looking at coming up with a way to deal with this effort by the president to constantly repeat things dozens and dozens of times that -- in what might be consider misinformation or propaganda. >> because that's the new factor. repeating it over and over

again. you're able to establish using this database. >> exactly. so we're looking at a way to somehow signify those kinds of claims that would be different than on the pinocchio scale. >> if you're having to deal with 100 false claims a day in some cases, are you able to keep up or having to add more staff? how are you keeping up? >> it's a staff of three right now an i haven't asked for any more. we just work long hours and many weekends. >> kessler thinks trump will hit the 10,000 mark by the end of his presidency. up next on cnn, a live update on florence. stay with us. we'll be right back.

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before we go, an update on florence, no longer a hurricane but still a severe threat and you can see why here on the local radar. a tornado watch, that's the red box, but the big story here are the rains and you can see these bands of rain continuing to come ashore from hatteras to myrtle beach. this is a slow motion storm disaster that's unfolding and the headline on cnn.com says it well. it says the flood danger is worse than ever. here's a lye look from myrtle beach, south carolina, the southern end of this storm. we've been able to show you other live pictures. the death toll is continuing to climb. the current number is 14 in the carolinas. these are live pictures from atlantic beach, north carolina, surveying some of the damage, looking around on some of those islands and coastal areas. in some cases, these pictures

can be -- they don't always tell the full story because flooding is expected to continue for days to come. a spokesman for the city of fayetteville saying we are going to get hammered, the worst is yet to come. florence downgraded from a hurricane to a tropical depression but the story very much unfolding still in the carolinas. stay with cnn for continuing live coverage. "state of the union" is up next. flooding fears. florence crawls across the carolinas dumping record rain and the worst may be yet to come. >> the water is rising fast everywhere. >> as president trump again raises doubts 3,000 americans actually died in puerto rico. >> i think puerto rico was an incredible unsung success. >> plus, big flip. paul manafort takes a plea deal with the special counsel, pledging to cooperate on "any and all matters". >> this has nothing to