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>> let's start with the obvious proposition. have fbi look into nominees, better equip senators to advise and consent on this matter. >> you repeatedly asked guests in prior segments, what would the harm be having the fbi look into this. here is one thing i would propose to you. if you're also able to launch another investigation at the conclusion of the normal review window, these will be in terminable hearings for supreme

court justice no matter who the prosecute the is, who controls the senate. at some point you have to act on the information you have. i'm frustrated dianne feinstein didn't release the information sooner. we have to note brett kavanaugh has been investigated by the fbi six times. so what is it we hope to find in the seventh investigation about an alleged event that maybe happened 36 years ago. >> this. this missed this. she hadn't come forward. you can't hold fbi accountable for what they can't know. now they know. look, is politics at play? that's a given. you see it on both sides. why not take it out of their hands and give it to the fbi. they are the only fair broker. >> it is unfair to suggest they missed something if you don't know if something is true or false. >> missed the allegation. she hadn't come forward.

>> we agree, the fbi didn't make a mistake. they didn't know. i'm saying your point is what did they find they didn't find before. this because they never knew about this. they should look at it. >> the premise is true. >> you can't say it's true, a tautology. >> what can you do with background information. >> we have to unpack what those investigations normally entail. sometimes eight months, 10 months, a year and a half in some circumstances. they talk to all the people you've been involved in in your life. here with professor ford if there was some professfer of evidence, some nexus of facts to investigate. >> we don't know there isn't. >> we would feel healthier.

>> we don't know there is. >> that's probable cause. >> look, what do you investigate? she doesn't know when it happened, where it happened. >> she doesn't know exactly. >> where do you start. >> your home state -- congressman, i did a story in your home state about women had suffer these types of events and how they process and how they are dealt with. by the way, your state is doing a great job. you have lots of outreach, they are treated the right way. bravo, your government funds a lot of it. it is not unusual to forget moments of trauma, to convince your self to forget so you can survive. we've heard from multiple friends that that's the case. it squares with what's coming forward. why would she come out anonymously if she wanted to be the tip of the spear for democrats. why if she wanted to come out and say something untrue, why would she ask for the feds to

dig into a story if she thinks there's a chance it will be false or uncorroborated. a lot of questions there. why not take a look? do you want to eight or ten months, fine. the white house controls the process. but why say no all the together. >> the senate does. >> no, the senate does not. the white house decides whether or not the fbi looks into this not the senate. >> the senate decide whether they proceed taking floor action. >> the white house has to ask the fbi. >> if the senate said they wouldn't or the senate said they aren't going to proceed until the fbi issues a report, that can happen frequently. i'm not making the suggestion professor ford isn't telling the truth or shouldn't be believed. that would be terribly irresponsible for you and i to do when we don't know the facts. let me pose a hypothesis for you to criticizes. the facts are never going to be knowable. we aren't going to know the

truth just like we don't know the truth about clarence thomas and anita hill. that's one of the reasons we have statute of limitations. over time we don't become less interest in justice, it's just that justice becomes more difficult to obtain as memory fades. i appreciate the compliments to the state of florida. i served as criminal justice chairman and put policies in place with our legislature. you are absolutely right. people react to trauma in very different ways. when you're looking at something that happened 38 years ago, i think you have to acknowledge the possibility facts could be confused, events reimagined. >> sussing all that stuff up. here is something not being considered. >> they are not pros doing it 36 years old. they never do it with 36 -- >> they do it with homicide. >> not this type of event. homicide creates a different catalog of physical evidence. >> maybe, maybe not. most of the cases are

circumstantial. you don't have direct evidence. sometimes you're searching for a body and whatever it was, the means to commit the homicide. here is what i'm saying. let's not get too much into the hypothetical. if you're judge kavanaugh, i know he has confidence he can fight this and win. i know that from sources around him. but it doesn't seem like his sponsor have the same confidence. he's the one that's going to have the cloud hanging over his head. there will always be doubt. if you do monday or no way to professor ford -- i know you're not in the senate, the house but if that's what happens in the senate that cloud is over his head. is that something he wants, something you want to do with him? >> that's sadly an inevitable part of the culture of accusation that we're in today that is response to culture of silencing victims that was yesteryear. we as a society struggling with balance. i would argue there's probably a cloud over clarence thomas, fair

or unfair, because we're not going to know what happened between him and anita hill. >> if the fbi comes back and says we cannot corroborate what professor ford says, democrats corroborate, trust the fbi. at least you have independent arbiter. >> tell me how to solve the problem. we do through a month long progress, we can find no evidence. a day after a new victim comes forward. do we take another month, another moment after that? at some point don't we have to have a collusion. >> maybe, maybe not. i'm really slow to cap possibilities when it comes to a class of people who have been silenced so long culturally. you know what our problem is, and this is why i like this conversation. this is a struggle. we have certain operating rules but not many. we don't like rules unless they play to advantage. that's what we're realizing with

this senate confirmation progress. everybody is afraid of advantage, what they can't control. if it's in a court of law that's one standard of review. outside of that we're lost. >> a court of law would never review this. this wouldn't meet the standard. you made the point with michael moore, it was effective. we have a judicial system. once we get out of that it becomes talking heads and political pundits and not factual developments. >> the rules of evidence. >> cases this old. >> it works hand in glove. how so? the reason we don't review these in part, you're right judicial economy. you're right preservation of evidence and administration of evidence, judicial economy, you're right. however, it's also cultural that we don't -- we forgive accusations over time. we don't let people come back later out of convenience, imagine, god forbid, it was one of my kids and he or she came

out many years later and the system said it happened. too bad, too late. a lot of those laws are changing as culture of appreciation of consequence and crisis evolves but we're not there yet. i think we're living in realtime. it is a struggle. it's imperfect, inconvenient, uncomfortable. i grant you all of that. but the best case scenario right now given that she didn't pop up out of nowhere, seems like she's taking a flyer, you have to do something better than what you're prepared to do. >> no one is suggesting that. no one is suggesting that. >> they are by saying they aren't going to give an independent review. >> if you had a contemporaneous writing, a contemporaneous oral account, she knew the date, time, place of party where we could go and try to cobble together witnesses from 36 years later about an event in high school but there's not even a hook upon which to sink in. >> i don't know we don't know it exists.

the only way to know is to dig. i get your concern about unending string of allegations. you're concerned about that. could be a middle ground if you have your eye on the right priority. we'll see what happens. you're not to account for that. you're not in the senate, at least not yet. let me ask you about something else that dove tails into this. in the name of transparency, sources and methods, protracted concern of national security, trump wants the fisa application of carter page out. you can argue out of political expedience or transparency but it's a hell of a thing to argue if he doesn't do the same for ford. if you want transparency, want it everywhere. i'm not going to bang you over his head with taxes because i've said that to you 100 times. if you want transparency, want it everywhere, how do you justify wanting it with carter package and not with ford. >> i have to say you won't be able to beat me over the head on the taxes issue because on your

network carried live i said the president should release his taxes because i am a transparency hawk. the question is whether or not that transparency is reasonably calculated. >> you don't call for it all the time, matt, you could be calling for those taxes. >> i've called for them before. i still think the president should be able to do it. the congress has no power to force him to do it. >> shouldn't have to. make your case about carter payable. >> my case about carter payable is this. we have secret fisa courts where things are happening that are aberrational. you have the inspector general testify the personnel move the very people on hrk investigation move to russia investigation, subsequently moved to mueller's investigation. that should never happen. then you continue to see text messages, the way the dossier went through bruce ohr rather than coming through the fbi directly. it all stinks man. i want to know what happened.

the american people deserve to know the truth. frankly when this is done republicans and democrats need to get together to clean this up. no matter who is in power you don't weaponize fisa court to go after political enemies. we will never start the process. >> i'm a journalist. i'm going to argue in front of transparency. i listen to government telling me about source and methods, part of the palling test, part of journalism. one, fisa is not a criminal court, less secret, layers of review, is it being used the same way, same question. is it aberrational, as you say, we don't know yet. when it becomes known we'll az. you haven't seen the fisa application either. you're going on what others told you about it. >> we don't know -- >> what the inspector general testified. based on the staffing expressly said by inspector general. >> i read the report. not enough to know dispose tiite

dispositively. how it's done and when it's done, if the president thinks it's that's important he should see it every time out. what's happening with ford, it's a tit for tat. >> not the same thing. >> transparency. either you want people to know or you don't. >> that's all i'm saying. >> not exactly the same. >> you could reasonably. want to vet things where you can reasonable find out what happened. i start with the premise we'll never know what happened with ford and kavanaugh because it happened so long ago and there's no way to investigate. totally different with the fisa process. >> many cases -- >> i'm eager to hear your examples of that. but as it relates to the fisa process, i think there we'll be able to clearly see what was told to the court, what was not told to the court will i think it is one of the most underrated

out rages of the entire circumstance, you had the wife of bruce ohr, senior justice official, never got to the court to authorize. >> i know what you're talking about. >> you said it's not a secret court. >> it's not a secret court. >> if you and i can't go and watch, that's -- >> that's not the definition. >> remember how it was before. don't let perfection be the enemy of progress. it used to be we didn't know what the hell it was based on. they put in this law, congress did as a function of oversight to make sure there were levels and standards to be followed. here you had multiple judges all part of this conspiracy of crazy if you believe your opinion on it. >> no, that's totally different. i'm not saying the judges are part of some crazy conspiracy, i'm saying they were not told the truth. the woods procedures would have required. >> what's in there? >> let's see, chris, you and i will not know what's in there and not in there. >> going off the same report you are. >> president on the side of

transparency. >> when it comes out has to be consistent. comes out take risks to do it. come pack on, please, congressman and let's get after what's in there. >> i'd be honored. >> be well. >> my pleasure. >> matt gaetz. >> she has been leaning on some of her closest friends about going public. we're going to talk to a reporter who has been talking to her friends. some insight you haven't heard before next. by l'oréal. lightens hair up to seven levels. féria is ammonia free with conditioning oil. never dull, never flat. live in color. live in féria extreme platinum by l'oréal paris. there's nothing small about your business. with dell small business technology advisors, you get the one-on-one partnership to grow your business. the dell vostro 14 laptop. get up to 40% off on select pcs. call 877-buy-dell today. ( ♪ )

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before going public with her claims, brett kavanaugh's accuser into with her friends about the decision to go public. a reporter for mercury news in san francisco bay area interviewed a number of christine ford's friends. thank you for being here and joining us. the question is, this is an interesting timing aspect. the friends as reported in your story and we into to samantha ga gary, this is something professor ford said she wanted to forget, came out anonymously, pushed democratic lawmakers to keep it that way. what did they tell you and what do you think about that? >> well, i into with a number of her friends. she has a really close-knit group that's all rallying behind

her now. she spent a lot of time at the beach in the summer. her kids are part of a junior lifeguard program. one of her friends said we spent hours and hours on the beach and she would confide in her friends this had happened to her before. and then she started once kavanaugh's name came forward she thought, what are the odds of this guy that did this to me is going to be the nominee and going to be confirmed. so she told her friends, gee, what should i do? should i come forward? i'm not sure. if i do, will it make a difference. she was just imagining what could happen, the allegations against her, people, whatever. she was also concerned, as she said, he didn't rape me. is it going to make a difference. it was an almost rape, as she put it.

her friends said she felt like she was struggling for her life. >> called an assault by the way. >> pardon me? >> it's called an assault, if those facts match up with any corroboration. it's an assault. i get where her head was on the political reality of it but certainly there's importance to the notion. >> oh, absolutely. she's been traumatized by this. it's one thing to say you want to put it behind you but it's another to actually try to do that. >> totally. let me ask you something -- >> the interesting about -- >> go ahead. make your point. >> one interesting thing about the impact it's had on her is she can't be in -- can't sleep in a bedroom that doesn't have an exit door to the outside. she feels trapped. she's paranoid about feeling trapped and needs an escape. she told friends when her husband she was remodeling her house, she needed to make sure she had exit doors in the bedrooms. this has affected her as much as

she's tried to forget it. >> let's flip it. anything you learned, anything that triggered your instincts as a reporter that there could be political motivations. it's not just personal and reticence and concern that she doesn't like the president. this is an opportunity, she wants to help the cause of the democrats? >> well, from her friends, of course, they all believe her. they say that she's, you know, teeming with honesty. she would never make this up. what reason would she. i certainly asked about her political background and if that could have any effect. she has, in fact, participated in marches. she participated in the women's march right after trump was elected. she participated in the march for science. she was quoted in our paper at the time saying she was wearing one of these fuzzy brain hats,

so it looked like the brain. she was upset and talked to her friends about the immigration child separation policy. so by some standards that would be considered politically active. to her friends in palo alto, that's really not much. she otherwise wasn't a political animal. they certainly didn't consider her a pleading heart. her friends said she knew the fact she considered herself a liberal or friends said they considered her a liberal, that could present problems bringing this forward at such a hyper charged political time. >> how you feel is one standard. what you can show and corroborate is something else. obviously in the court of law, thatured about is not on the accuser once it gets to a trial. but here it will be interesting

to see if there's an opportunity to investigate and time is allowed to probe, is there anything that comes up that squares with what the professor is saying beyond her own statements that we have at this point. julia sulek, thank you for expanding our understanding. appreciate it. >> you're welcome. >> so now you've heard, professor ford is not saying she won't testify, not saying she's backing away. i'm seeing on social media saying backing out. she didn't say that. her letter says the opposite of that instinct, she wants an fbi investigation before she'll talk to the politicians. how likely is she to get one? great debate next.

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this just in to cnn chairman chuck grassley responded to lawyers of professor ford, the woman accusing brett kavanaugh of assault. he said, quote, nobody should be subject to threats and intimidation and dr. ford is no exception. these are serious allegations and doctor dmpbs to be heaeserv.

her testimony would reflect her personal knowledge and memory of events. there's no reason for further delay. great start off for great debate. jess, is that good enough for you what dprgrassley says? >> no, i think fbi is a perfect thing to ask for and perfect thing to get. it's not getting by anyone we're almost 27 years from the anita hill hearings. i know chuck grassley is sitting in the same place but a lot has changed. we can organize in ways my mother would have dreamed of when they were fighting that fight. women had a way to talk about this, even sexual harassment didn't show up until anita hill hearings and women on the judiciary committee. it's not the kind of thing, this

is the one way to do it, we want her in front of the hearing my way or the highway. it's not going to fly in 2018. >> niger, why not do to tebow. >> they are affair arbiter, their role in judicial nominations. up to the president to do it. why not remove the specter of fairness and give it to the fbi. >> i wish someone named senator dianne feinstein had had exactly that point of view when she got this information from a democrat congresswoman in july. the fact that she sat on this reveals exactly what dr. ford's friend said in the earlier hour. i agree with dr. ford's friend completely, which is dr. ford is being used as a political football. if that analogy is correct, and i agree with it 1,000%, the quarterback is dianne feinstein, the coach is chuck schumer and

running back is kamala harris. what democrats are doing for political purpose when dr. ford, in my opinion, has a three and a half decade old memory and a trauma she believes occurred to her is a disgrace, it's an outrage. >> niger, i get your take on the politics, not to give short shri shrift. i get it. how does that remove interest in giving it to the fbi now that you have a controversy. >> the fact was the letter has been submitted late to the fbi. judge kavanaugh has not had the opportunity. i'm not a lawyer, i don't play one on tv. i think a fundamental of american law -- >> you have the right to confront your accuser. >> absolutely. >> he would here as well. >> right now all we're dealing with right now, chris, is a

letter that has been submitted. i think grassley is absolutely right under whatever circumstances privately, over the phone. >> can't be private. >> no way. >> not with these people. >> because of the leaks. >> i love the leaks. i love the leaks. i'm a journalist. some holes, that's all we get. i'm going to call them republicans, left and right. i have to tell you, i believe niger makes a point that ultimately what may counter his initial argument, kavanaugh hasn't gotten his say, not all allegations are even, an allegation is not dispose tiati proof of an outcome. let the fbi take a look, see what she says, see if they can

krob eight it, they certainly can better than a senate staff, they say we can't sub stamplgiate it stamplg ia -- substantiate it or this. >> we have to have all the facts on the table, the evidence. here you have an accuser saying, all right, i will submit to a legal entity. i will tell the story. she's already taken an fbi-given pollograp polygraph test which she passed. why wouldn't brett kavanaugh want that. >> people around him and know him, he believes he is right. he believes he can defend. the question is, do his sponsors and boosters believe the same. when they got word they didn't go into vet mode, they put in defend mode. they put a group of people around him, women who say what

his character is, attest to his qualities. they went into defend mode. maybe they don't trust their guy to come through this. >> i don't know if i believe that characterization. when it comes to the 200 women that have rallied around brett kavanaugh, what we know from the #metoo movement. >> i think it's ford that has hundreds. i think it's 65 that came around kavanaugh. >> fewer willing to talk on the record. >> what we know is this, okay, and those women were testifying to dr. ford's character. fair enough, be it 65, 200 -- i thought it was 200 with judge kavanaugh. let's say 65. i'll concede that. what we had, what we know from the #metoo movement, folks like kevin spacey, weinstein, i feel awful saying this, even bill

cosby, there is a pattern of behavior. this thing doesn't just happen. >> fair enough. >> in terms of a pattern of behavior, based on the testimony of -- i believe it's 200 but let's say 65, 65 women judge kavanaugh has mentored, gone to school with, dated, worked with, all testified to his character. that's the only pattern we have right now. and one allegation that hasn't even been made official because unfortunately dr. ford refuses to testify. >> she doesn't refuse to testify. she actually -- she's not hedging, she's doubling done. >> absolutely. this is an incredible act of bravery. i would like to point out that the 65 women who signed the letter before this accusation dropped, of those i believe journalists could only find five still willing to say their names and they stood behind kavanaugh after the accusation came out. people who signed a letter saying, we knew this guy in high

school. now that they are aware what their names are used for they don't necessarily want to be on the record saying i never said he didn't do that. >> 65 people the white house and other people put around kavanaugh, i'm not disparaging the effort. many backed away after a name, as opposed to hundreds of people came out from different avenues of existence. those are the numbers. >> this not a ballots between dr. ford and judge kavanaugh. find out the truth. in terms of -- >> credibility the ultimate indicator. what we've seen in this in what i call a point, kavanaugh, both play the toxic game with these judges, it's about nondisclosure, roe v. wade

settled law, i respect that. he knows the supreme court settles law. >> it is a pattern of play here. it is brett kavanaugh. >> he played it well, obvious about nondisclosure. credibility could be an indicator here that crates risk. >> one thing that i think is credible is six fbi background checks over a 12-year period, 8 years of which president obama in charge of the justice department. >> they talked to people but they missed this because she hadn't come forward. >> if it was a pattern of abusive behavior. >> pattern isn't the standard. one is enough. niger, god forbid one of our kids, somebody we care about, one is enough. >> let me make this point, then i'll hand the ball back to you. >> what we're talking about here is very serious. i do believe that dr. ford

legitimately believes this. i don't know that it's true. i don't believe it's true, but i do believe dr. ford believes there was some traumatic incident that occurred 35 years ago. this traumatic incident is potentially assault, it is potential gang rape. that kind of behavior by an individual in high school, it doesn't just go away. >> she never said gang rape. >> she said that the two individuals. >> she never said rape, gang, she said somebody was there. >> she said he jumped on top -- >> she said it's not rape but that's not the point. one is enough. what her recollection is, whatever it is that should be vetted. we've got to be careful, niger, not to play against the presumption when someone has an accusation. does it mean it happened? not necessarily. are all allegations even? no. if you run away from this out of political expediency and wind up

elevating them and rewarding them with a lifetime appointment that matters, too. >> that is the absolute point of all of this. we are talking boult whether or not to elevate somebody to a lifetime appointment to the highest court in this country. if you are going to be a supreme court justice, that means you are a person of impeccable integrity, impeccable character, able to see humanity of every american, every race. that means if you try to rape somebody, even if it's just the one time, you're out of the running. you don't get to be the swing vote on whether or not women have reproductive freedom. >> what if he's innocent. there are two victims here. >> you don't put a predator on the supreme court. >> presumed innocent until proven guilty. >> we're talking about a job interview. >> the opportunity to respond. >> he should have the opportunity to respond. >> you are both right.

hallelujah. on this point we agree. we should have common ground. we want it all to come out. everybody should have their say. accuse, defend, can you corroborate, different standard in a court of law. she has to show corroboration, let the fbi do their job. at the end of the day have some measure of confidence before something ensures jurisprudence. strong arguments. thank you for making them on the show. so in the middle of all of this, stormy daniels is back on the radar. she's got a tell-all book and we learn things. new claims. new insights. what will donald trump say and do. chris cillizza with the key takeaways next. so-so pizza? not in this house. 'causet's no so-so family. that's your family. which is why you didn't grab just any cheese. you picked up new kraft expertly paired mozzarella and parmesan for pizzahyeah! kraft. family greatly.

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her book is not safe for work. stormy daniels upcoming tell-all has salacious details about her alleged affair with donald trump and intimate details about him. hillary clinton and the apprentice makes surprising cameos. how do i know? we have a copy. chris cillizza has more. what are your top three? >> here we go. yes, you're right. salacious headlines of descriptions of genitalia will titillate people. >> no pun intended. continue. >> there's actually stuff in here that is worth revisiting. number one and by far the most important you mentioned it. 2007 stormy daniels says she's with donald trump watching shark week by the way, when he receives a phone call from hillary clinton. she's not sure what goes on matt phone call. when he hangs up, he says he loves hillary clinton, they are

friends and they went to each other's wedding. that's not exactly true. donald trump didn't go to their wedding but they did go to donald and melania's wedding. second takeaway. she asked him about his hair and what the deal is. he said that's my thing. why is that important? he is self-aware. is he self-aware? does he know how he's being perceived? does he not care? i think he's more self-aware than possibly, possibly we give him credit for. last one, she says he promised her a slot on the apprentice, this is the important part, he would help her cheat and give her challenges before hand so she could advance on the show, stay on the show. presumably better for her career. didn't wind up happening. stormy daniels didn't wind up on the apprentice.

we know from his golf game donald trump, the end justifies the means. these are small things. i would love to know what he talked to hillary clinton about in 2007 when she was running against barack obama, these are small things insightful to his character. >> all grist for the mill, the big question, how will he respond. it's supposed to be about helping her credibility and telling her truth. that's what her lawyer michael avenatti argues but i think it's a provocation to respond to. >> one quick last point. he's his worst enemy on twitter and everything else. he doesn't leave things alone he should. this book could be dismissed by many if he leaves it along. my guess is he won't. >> did you hear that? chris slice action, thanks. we can't turn away from something that has to be a focused, a week from now, three weeks from now, months from now.

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islands, communities. hard hit north carolina aerials today show the destruction the hurricane inflicted on that will coastline. on the left, neat rooftops, white sandy beaches, the right the reality all worn away. towns in ruins. i was there as it all unfolded talking to a number of people who wanted to stick it out. their turns were getting shorter and shorter to make a difference. highways, waterways. now the peril grows. footage from fema shows this search and rescue amazing what these men and women are doing. look at there man on the top of this car. he is moments from the end. but that moment never came because here came our best, our angels. and that moment ended in this, a successful rescue. but this is not what happens with everybody. that's where the numbers of the lost are coming from. authorities in north carolina on just monday recovered the body of this little boy.

kaidan lee welch, swept away by floodwaters he was there with his mother and the waters took him away from her. imagine the tragedy. i don't want to think about it but it happened and it matters. the states are working to recover from the storm, more than 300,000 people are without power. some are facing dwindling resources. that's where we come in. don't forget there but for the grace and these are your brothers and sisters. tomorrow, the president is going to the carolinas. he's going to visit some of the affected areas by florence. how will he respond in what will he promise? how will he deliver? those are key and we are be watching. thank you for watching me tonight. let's get after it again tomorrow night. 9:00 eastern right here on cnn. >> if you're waiting patiently for a liver transplant, it could cost you your life.

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