tonight on the axe files, one on one with supreme court justice sonia sotomayor, weighing in on brett kavanaugh's bitter confirmation battle. >> i know you guys are sort of cloistered but not cocooned, how do you shift from the inside. the shifting dynamics on the back. >> do i expect i might be dissenting a bit more, possibly gl a . >> and her journey to the highest court in the land. >> this is not something you found in a law book. this is what you have lived. >> it is what i have lived. >> welcome to the axe files.

justice sotomayor, so good to see you again. good to be with you. >> it's always wonderful to see you, daifld. >> i w-- see you, david. >> i was telling you before, i found your book, your biography, your memoir, absolutely riveting and you have written two more books, derivative of it for young people. i want to talk to you about that. we're in this room, this conference room at the supreme court, surrounded by portraits of the chiefs who have presided over the court, and i just wanted to spend a couple of minutes on the moment that you think the court is in now. i know you guys are sort of cloistered but you're not cocooned, we came through this acrimonious process of confirmation. >> i like beer. i like beer. do you like beer, senator, or not? >> next. >> what you want to do is destroy this guy's life, hold this seat open.

>> how do you view it from the inside? i mean, how does the court and family, community adjust to those moments? >> i'm going to steal a line from one of my colleagues, a story, actually, not a line. and it was justice thomas who tells me that when he first came to the court another justice approached him and said i judge you by what you do here. welcome. and i repeated that story to justice kavanaugh when i first greeted him here. now, i've known him, i've known of his work. but when you're charged with working together for most of the remainder of your life, you have to create a relationship. the nine of us are now a family, and we're a family with each of us our own burdens and our own obligations to others, but this

is our work family. and it's just as important as our personal family. we probably spend more time with each other than most justices spend who have spouses with their spouses. >> but beyond your personal relationships, as this moment in history, do you have concerns about how people view the court because of the partisanization of everything? >> it's a concern, obviously to the extent that we're citizens, and all of us have a passion about this country and about our constitution and our system of government. that to all of us is critically important. i think many of us feel that what people perceive as partisanship is erroneous. there are thousands and thousands of cases that come through the federal system every day.

95% of them are resolved in the district, on the trial level, on the district court level. only 5% of those cases are appealed. that means that the vast, vast, vast majority of people have gone through our judicial system and accepted its judgment. of the court of appeals cases, and there are thousands and thousands and thousands of them, we only hear about 60 to 70 cases in recent years. and anywhere it's been as high as 40 to 70% of the cases are decided almost unanimously. there is certainly a percentage of cases that are not. and we have our share of 5-4 decisions. but is it partisan or is it because, as i believe, we approach judicial decision making in different ways. judges are given a tool box of

inter pretive tools, and with it we come to our conclusions f. you build a house with one tool, it looks one way, if you pick a different tool, it looks another way, and that's what happens and so that, the political parties have aligned themselves with certain of our judicial approaches, we can't control and i'm saddened that they are viewed as partisan in that way. but i don't think it's a fair judgment of what the court does every day. >> but surely you know that this court is going to be probably for the duration of your tenure on the court a conservative court. >> i don't know what that word means, conservative, liberal, those are political terms. do i suspect that i might be dissenting a bit more, possibly.

but i still have two relatively new colleagues, one very new colleague, brett kavanaugh and neil gorsuch and we have agreed in quite a few cases, we have disagreed in a bunch, but you know, let's see. >> you told a group, i think, at your alma mater at princeton in 2017, that there was a point in the process of confirmation that you questioned whether you wanted to continue because of just some of the things that, the ugliness of the process. if this process is going to result in my getting to the supreme court as adminished person, is it worth it. your friends talked you out of that. it does speak to the nature of process. it is by definition, especially in the modern era, a very rough process. >> it is. it wasn't the process for most of the history of the united states. this public questioning system

only started about 1960s, 1970s. before that, there was a long period of american history where candidates, applicants, whatever word you want to use for what we are. >> nominations. >> nominations, nominees, weren't even questioned by the senate at all. a senator would convey the president's nomination, speak on behalf of the nominee, and then opponents would say their piece, and there would be a vote. it's gotten more elaborate with time. some of it is the product of television. some of it is the product that people are asking nominees for things they can't give. you know, what's important to people is what's important to them in political campaigns. how are you going to vote? but that's something a judge with integrity or someone who

wants to be a judge with integrity would say. >> the kavanaugh hearing, you know it became a flash point for the me too movement and wryou wrote about the barriers and difficulties women faced as you were coming up as a young prosecutor, including, you know, elements of harassment. did you face that? >> i don't know that i experienced harassment in the way that people are describing. did i have moments where a supervisor acted in ways that i wish they hasndn't? absolutely. i think it's a given, justice ruth bader ginsberg has spoken about it that big and small things happen to women all the time. the off collar jokes that really shouldn't be told do happen. the supervisor who says something that makes you feel uncomfortable, the supervisor who asks you or tells you

something about their feelings about you and you have to look at them and say i really think you're a wonderful person but i don't feel the same way, thank you. >> do you think it's healthy that this me too movement, do you feel like it's a healthy development? there's been some debate, you know, back and forth about it. but reading your book and some of the things that you wrote, it feels like maybe it's over due in some ways? >> i always think the conversation is always due. and the fact that we're having a national discussion around and about this issue is always a good thing. and if the conversation stops one person from taking an action that could be questioned, then it's worthwhile, isn't it. and so for me, i don't think there should ever be any topics that are off limits in the sense

of a serious respectful conversation about what affects people negatively. and to the extent that one accepts that there are women who have been harassed in even more direct ways than i have described, i think talking about it is important. >> coming up, on the axe files. >> maria and its aftermath has left a lot of questions as to whether people truly appreciate how american we are. , your finances, your future. how do you solve this? you partner with a firm that combines trusted, personal advice with the cutting edge tools and insights

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one, turning pages, my life story. >> by the way, it's in spanish, too. why did you decide to write these books derivative of the original? >> well, the third book in this trilogy before us is the beloved world of sonia sotomayor and this is the middle school book, and this is an abridgment of the memoir. turning pages is a story about my life but through the influence of reading in my life. and of books. >> yeah. >> all three books in essence have one major purpose, to show people that no matter how difficult your life circumstances, you should never give up hope. >> let's talk a little bit about that. your folks came from puerto rico. i see the little frog, an homage

to puerto rico. your folks came for a reason. they came for work. they came for opportunity. >> for the same reason that migrants from across the united states move from place to place. >> it's not just why people move throughout the country but also why people come from outside the country. one of the things that is reflected in your book is the experience of being an outsider and we're in this period where the other is very prevalent in our discourse. how do you take that in? not as a justice but as a citizen? >> one of the prizes of having written my memoir is that i had so many people who i have known as friends, virtually my entire adult life who shared with me

the hardships in their lives that i never ever knew about. >> yeah. >> there was and is a very dear friend from yale who i knew had come from the south, but i had absolutely no knowledge of the extreme poverty he had grown up in. in fact, i just assumed he was another one of the privileged people that i had gone to law school with. and he wasn't. i think we often forget that even here among american citizens there is a lot of inequality of resources and of other types. there are hardships that people live with each day that make their lives very different from whatever others think is the norm. and so that outsider feeling, it's more common than we're

willing to admit. it is easy to say all americans, we americans, and i wear that phrase with pride, but it doesn't mean that we experience the same thing. >> yeah. the tone of today's discourse is what i was referring to specifically, does it disturb you, does it upset you? >> i'm a citizen. there are things that happen whether it was the shooting, recent shooting in the synagogue, or other things of that nature that have occurred that strike my soul that obviously make me very very sad. if that's a reflection of the suspicion with which we are treating each other at times, it's a sad statement. we all have families we love. we all care about others. we care about our country.

and we care when people are injured. and unfortunately the current conversation often forgets that. it forgets our commonalities and focuses on superficial differences. whether those are language or how people look or the same god they pray to but in different ways. those differences truly are not important. what is important is those human values we share. and those human feelings that we share. i worry that we forget about that too often. >> we talked a little bit before about puerto rico. we all were kind of horrified about what happened after hurricane maria, and there's still a slow recovery from it, but i got the sense, just reading things that you've said, that you thought this was an

extension of a long history. >> well, regrettably, and one of the purposes of my memoir was to introduce people to puerto rico. my sense in most situations and people often call me an immigrant, and i look at them and say wait a minute, i'm a citizen. i was born a citizen. i was born in new york city, but putting that aside, puerto ricans. my belief, and i think it's still my belief, most americans think of puerto ricans as foreigners in some way, not realizing that we're citizens above all else. and so one of the purposes of my memoir was to introduce them to my island and explain some of its history. i do think that the -- that

maria and its aftermath has left a lot of questions as to whether people truly appreciate how american we are. i remind audiences all the time, puerto rican children have given their lives in every american war since world war i, and so it's hurtfu to know that it's almost, it's over a year now since those storms and there are still pockets of puerto rico that have no light and no running water. the island is still sort of suffering from rolling electrical blackouts. people still struggling to pull together their homes and to rebuild the life and to rebuild the island, and there are still resources being given to many

other people that are not being made equally available. >> people on the mainland. >> exactly. here. >> you lived in the south bronx. >> i did. >> i grew up in new york as well. the south bronx particularly in the time you were growing up was rough, and you write about how rough it was, junkies shooting up in the staircase of your building, and -- >> for anyone who has a question, there's a famous movie called fort apache. >> i will place you under arrest. >> that district was also known for the relationship between police and citizen, and it wasn't always an easy relationship. and i want to ask you about both sides of that equation. you wrote in a dissent something that really struck me having known something about your background, reading the book, for generations black and brown parents have given their children the talk, instructing them never to run down the street, always to keep your hands where they can be seen, do

not even think about talking back to a stranger, all out of fear of how an officer with a gun will react to them. and i wanted to ask you as i was reading that, did you get the talk, did your brother get the talk? >> my brother did. i didn't because at least in my community at the time, i wasn't let out without having an adult with me. and whether it was my mother, my grandmother, one of my aunts, one of my male cousins, all of the young girls in my family were escorted. and so it was something you were taught by the deference that everyone showed to law enforcement. it was just accepted that this is something you had to do. but my brother, my mother moved us from the projects to co-op city in the bronx in order to escape the dangers and the temptations that my mother thought were inherent in the projects. >> you're unique on the court

for another reason. you were a line prosecutor in the manhattan d a's office under bob morgan, a legendary prosecutor, the law and order tv show kind of iconic model. >> started with a killing, ending with an execution. >> you got what you wanted. >> so you really saw at the fundamental level, the system, some of the communities that have experienced these difficulties in police community relations, police shootings and so on are also the communities that are crime ravaged. how do you balance these things? >> one of the first questions i ask kids sometimes when they're talking to me about law enforcement and community relations, i start with one simple question, how many of you have ever visited your police station. just to say hello to the policemen there or policewomen today now, and i rarely get a

hand that raises. now, i will then ask i'm assuming some of you may have been there because one of your family members have been in trouble. but have you ever taken the time to get to know them as people. and the answer too often is no. and the reverse is true. because if you ask in many communities, not all, inner city communities, you ask police officers, have you ever -- do you have any friends in that community whose homes you actually visit for a meal, and the number of hands that raise are very few if any. but i actually do think that we have to spend a lot more time seeing each other as human beings. and not objects of our work or objects of our resistance, as

the case may be. and i worry that we've created others of each other. instead of understanding both what police are there to do, which is to protect a neighborhood, but also not to instill fear in them either. and to understand it when it manifests itself at moments. >> up next, on the axe files. >> there were critics of mine during that process who were writing that i wasn't smart enough, good enough, to be on the supreme court. discover. i like your card, but i'm absolutely not paying an annual fee. discover has no annual fees. really? yeah. we just don't believe in them. oh nice. you would not believe how long i've been rehearsing that. no annual fee on any card. only from discover. the united states postal service

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that i had an obligation, and that is to squeeze out of life every minute that i could. to make every moment in my life meaningf meaningful in some way. i was a nerd in school, studied very hard, did a lot of after-coafte after-school activities, stayed up late studying. i worked on saturday and sunday, full days, but i partied friday and saturday nights, and i still live my life somewhat like that. i work very very hard. i do a lot of other activities. and i still party with friends. and for me, that fear of dying young taught me how precious life is. >> there's another reason why you may have felt that way is because a year after this or a little more than a year after this, you lost your dad. >> i did. >> sadly, he battled alcoholism.

how did that impact on you? >> well, it was interesting, more directly than anything, it was the impetus for my mother to motivate me to go to college. her line to me always was sonia, you need always to be able to support yourself. you cannot depend on anyone else to support you because things happen. i didn't expect your dad to die. and you can't expect, even if you fall in love and marry, that that person can or will be with you your entire life. >> you also wrote and this is really what the subject of turning pages is that one of the ways that you sought refuge in your grief and trying to sort this out was to start reading and reading voraciously. >> can i show you the picture in

my book? >> sure. yeah. this is the picture talking about my dad's death, and there's the gloom in my house. >> yeah. >> and my mother was very very sad for a very long time about my father. >> you wrote about that as well. >> and i needed to escape from home. and i fortuitously found the local library. i started to read, and i realized that it was a wonderful way to escape from gloom. and a wonderful way to travel the world. there's my boat, pages of books, and so to me, it became my escape. reading always has been and continues to be. >> yeah. it also, that boat also enables you to make progress as a student. your mom also insisted, she sent you to parochial school in new york, blessed sack -- sacrament and you excelled there.

>> i would say the first four years until my father's death, i was a marginal student in school. in retrospect, i was having difficulty understanding english and this is before the day of bilingual education, and i don't think that the teachers fully understood that i wasn't understanding completely. >> so you excelled, ultimately excelled in high school, and you got this postcard from princeton university saying that you had applied there, you had a friend there, encouraged you, applied, you got a postcard saying you would likely be accepted and then something happened that was really sobering for you. talk about that. >> i went to visit the school, i don't know why. i'm not sure i was visiting her. >> you said you were walking past. >> walking past her office. it was in the middle of the school on the first floor and she could look out and see who was walking by. and she called me over and she

said i've heard that you've gotten a likely from princeton. >> i said, yes i did, and she said, well these two other students who were number one and number two in the school had received only a possible. and she looked at me and she said why would they receive only a possible and you a likely. and she said it with such disdain, that's the word, with such a look of you're being treated specially, don't you know why, look. and i didn't immediately understand, but i was incredibly uncomfortable. it didn't take me long to realize that a good reason or a main reason was that i was latina and they weren't, and she

was asking me whether i was receiving favoritism that they weren't. it took me a long time to give her the response in my head that i should have given her at the time, which was, well, i'm the head of a lot of student activity here. i also work saturday and sunday to help my mom with her finances. i'm a award winning debater in my school activities. i do things they don't do. so maybe that's the reason, and not the one that you're insinuating. >> you ended up excelling at princeton, and sue ma cum laude, and phi beta kappa. you won the top prize and went to yale law school, excelled there as well and got the same kinds of questions, all circling

around this supposition that you were somehow undeserving. >> at yale, it was at a dinner by a law firm that was interviewing potential student job applicants to their firms. and my friend who invited me to the dinner had worked with this firm during the summer went around the room and described me as a puerto rican that had come from the south bronx and gone to princeton and ended up at yale, and after the introductions had finished around the table, the partner who was sitting across from me looked at me and the first question he asked me was did you get into yale only because you're puerto rican. and i was stunned. my mind raced, which was i don't really think so. i'm sure it helped, but i think

i have other qualities that they also found important. but you're -- your assuming it is really insulting. i filed a complaint with yale. >> and they were forced to apologize. >> and they did, and he did personally, as a credit to him. but i think that the accomplishments that i had gone through at princeton, my scores on the last were decent enough, if he had bothered to look at my background he wouldn't have asked the question but it's the assumptions we live with. >> the feeling that minority students had that there were vultures circling ready to dive when we stumbled, the pressure to succeed, even if self-imposed

out of fear and insecurity, and i put that in the context of the dissent you wrote in the affirmtive action case involving the university of michigan, and you wrote that race matters because of the slights, the snickers, the silents judgments that reinforce that most crippling of thoughts, i do not belong here, and i thought this was not something that you found in a law book. this is what you had lived. >> it is what i've lived, and as you know, from my own nomination process, there were critics of mine during that process who were writing that i wasn't smart enough, good enough to be on the supreme court. i'm sure some of them still feel that way, but i know there are others who have publicly said they were wrong. but i also wonder for how many of them it was also a part of that unspoken assumption that

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find out who you were and how you might react to the whole process and so on. and i asked you this question, i asked you what is it about -- is there anything about this process that concerns you, that worries you, and you said i worry that i won't measure up. and i will always remember that conversation because it helped me understand not just you but in some ways, my own boss and what the pressures of being a path breaker, the first, do you feel an extra burden being in that position? >> without question. when you have, as i do, people come up to me and say things like you show my kids that their success can happen. we rely on you to continue

showing them that. it's a lot of pressure. >> it is because the same as your failure also would be their failure. >> exactly. exactly. and so, yes. now, in life, if you paid attention to that, you could paralyze yourself. >> yeah. >> and so you have to know enough to step away from it and understand that you have to live your life doing the best you can and hoping that it measures up. but it requires a lot of effort to try to do the best every single moment. >> and you wrote very honestly at every sort of important juncture in your life, this moment of fear, i think, very natural concern, maybe everybody feels it, but -- >> i talk about in the book, the first day that i took the bench as a district court judge, i sat down, my knees were knocking. i was so afraid that everyone in the room could hear them

knocking. my knees were knocking again the first day i was in the supreme court. only i knew enough then, the bench is so thick, that maybe people didn't hear it. >> you're the only justice who's been a prosecutor, district judge, an appellate judge before you came to the supreme court. >> do you know while i was going through the nomination process, i knew that i had been the only district judge among the existing supreme court justices because i had done a little bit of research on them and their backgrounds. i didn't know until the president's nomination of me that there's only been three justices in the history of the court who have had the prior two experiences as well. >> and what does it mean to have been a trial court judge and see the system from that perspective? >> i think first and foremost when you're a trial judge, you

have the parties in front of you. if you have a trial and especially during criminal proceedings, you always have the defendant there. you can see their families because they're often visiting. in civil cases, the parties actually may not show up all the time, but they do show up at certain points, often in settlement discussions, but you're always, always aware of how these cases affect them. you learn what's at stake for both sides. >> so it's not theoretical. >> it's not theoretical, and the impact is visible. when you're on an appellate bench, you're reading a record. you're rarely, if ever, seeing the parties. sometimes even in the supreme court there are parties, but you really don't actually see the real impact of law on people. and so for me, a lot of my

opinions will talk about that impact. >> yeah. it's palpable, it stands out. >> well, and i think it's reflected in my writing as a result. >> yeah. >> now, people confuse being conscious of impact as influencing the decision you make so that you feel sorry for someone. >> empathy became a dirty word somehow in your confirmation process. >> exactly. >> president obama clearly believes that you measure up to his empathy standard. that worries me. >> call it empathy, call it prejudice or call it sympathy, but whatever it is, it's not law. >> to the extent that i've always defined empathy as can you see from the other side's point of view. can you understand what they're saying. but it doesn't mean that you're ruling in their favor.

there are plenty of cases that i've been the more sympathetic party because the law didn't support a judgment in their favor. but i've never shied away from saying these are sad facts and what happened to this person is truly unfortunate but the law can't give you redress. >> i can't leave without asking you about the very, very powerful dissent you delivered in the travel ban case. you took an unusual step, and you insisted on reading your dissent from the bench. and it was a very, very powerful dissent. why did you take that step? >> i think that it is important for losers in a court case to know that their position has

been heard. it may not win. it didn't. but at least articulating it so others can think about it. >> it was a very pointed and very passionate dissent. and i know how carefully you choose your words. and i'm sure every single word in that dissent was one you gave a lot of thought to. why was that particular case so meaningful to you? >> i think that when we have people who believe and do believe that they've been discriminated against in their treatment, that someone should speak their views. and speak it with real feeling. and explain it as carefully as i could, as being what is at the

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family with the other justices. do you socialize? >> sure i do. >> have you inveigled them into a poker game? >> at least one of them. >> what about the notorious rbg, what do you think about her being a cult figure in her 80s? >> so well-deserved. she's earned it, she's spent a lifetime in giving. >> has she invited you for her workouts? >> no, i wouldn't keep up with her. >> you are of this place but you are a new yorker. >> yes. >> you get back there regularly. >> as often as i humanly can which isn't as much as i would like. >> and how about your beloved yankees? >> it was disappointing this year. >> it must have hurt to lose particularly to the red sox. >> yes. and i have a red sox friend who called me and said, and it feels

particularly good to win it because of beating the yankees. >> i'm sure it was. >> it's always hard. but i went to the only win the yankees had in boston. >> did you ever think if you had gone to more games that they might have been able to -- >> i think so. >> i know you sat in the right field stands in the judge's corner, you were there in your yankee robes. >> i did and i loved it. i absolutely loved it. do you know something very special about aaron judge and i, we share a similar number. his jersey number is 99. i'm the 99th associate justice of the supreme court. >> it was meant to be. >> it really was. >> he was fated to be. when all of this is done, what would you like people to say about sonia sotomayor? is it more about your journey or your jurisprudence? >> i hope they'll say something

nice about my jurisprudence. i hope they'll say something good about my attempt to be fair to everyone, to read every case with equal attention, to be fair and impartial. all of those dream about those things if you're a judge. i hope, and i tell kids, and you know i meet with kids all the time. >> i do. >> that i will have said something, either in my jurisprudence or in my personal meeting, that will stay with them and influence their life in a positive way. i will live as long as there's someone who carries a memory of me. because after that, i'm a figure in a book. >> well, let me just say this, justice sotomayor. i think you may be immortal. if that is the test, you will be remembered for as long as people

read and as long as people understand history. so i'm honored to be with you. >> thank you, david. >> for more of our conversation, subscribe to "the axe files" on your favorite podcast app. the following is a cnn special report. ♪ who thought the word needed 24/7 news? >> i did. >> he changed tv news forever. >> most of my colleagues thought ted was nuts. >> sailing, media, environment. united nations. >> good round number, you know. >> you know, the changed the world. >> yeah, i know. >> they called him captain outrageous and the mouth of the