dick cheney is a robot many indisputable proof, big foot spotted in northern california, and man's 174 mile per hour sneeze blows wife's hair off. over on fox, the feeling was, the interview went pretty well. >> you and i frayeded a lot of papers ah, and it's been a good conversation, thank you, sir. >> thank you very much. >> with that, a friendly reminder, there's always a paper trail on the ridiculis. thank you, anderson. well argued. i am chris cuomo, welcome to prime time. >> the president making the case that he has done nothing wrong. this case seems to be plagued by contradictions. we're going to test them with kellyanne conway. and the president's good friend says the president was in the room when the plan was hatched to pay off women who threatened

his campaign. legal exposure for that? we'll take it up in cuomo's court. criminal prosecution is a maybe. political skrut any, 100%. specifically if the president is shown to be lying about key issues. how bad could it be? lots to test, let's get after it. donald trump not only knew about the plan for payments to help his campaign, he was at the meeting that hatched the plan. who says? reportedly his friend who ran the enquirer, david pecker who was also at the meeting. brings up once again that haunting question, why lie if you had nothing to hide. i want to put this string of contradictions to the white

house counsel. >> merry christmas, christopher. i have to take issue with the way you stated things as if they're fact. >> please. >> you just stated things as if they were fact. look at what we have now, snark and bark against the president. you have federal election commissioners, former ones, people who are election law experts saying that just because people who said they -- that they were asked to commit a crime here, there's not a crime. one guy said today that michael cohen pled guilty to something that's not a crime. his whole point in that article that people should read is that if you, for example, if you were going to do something anyway, irrespective of you being a federal candidate for office, it's not a campaign expense, it's a personal expense. otherwise, successful entrepreneurs who want lawsuits to go away, maybe to save embarrassment toward their family or to just get rid of species or false claims -- if

they've ever been a candidate for federal office it would count as a campaign expense. >> that's not the current case. >> and -- >> it's not the current case. we have robert ray on the show tonight. >> well -- >> that's the lawyer you're speaking about, we'll have him on the show later today. >> no, not -- i'm not talking about him, i'm talking about civosky and bradley. people who are experts in this field. >> right, but i'm not -- i don't -- i'm not in the speculation business. i'm talking about facts. david pecker was at the meeting. >> you are -- no, you're not. >> he said the president was at the meeting. that's a fact. >> so you like to -- no, no, no. stop saying words facts and lies. >> that is a fact by expedition. >> do you get an extra $100 every time. >> i wish. >> you are saying that a year, one year before i became chain manager for the winning part of the campaign and never was

involved in anything of this sort, nothing, zero. when he fully -- >> good thing to call out right now. by the way. >> no, no, this is important. this is important. this is important, christopher, this is very important, you're talking about a full year before that, relatively early in the primary season, you're talking about people saying we did this in further answer of the election. there is just no proof of that, that is somebody's opinion. and why was i never -- why did we do nothing like this, why was i not told anything like this. if we're really beating hillary, if she can't get above 50% in these 10 or 11 states where president obama carried, we can pull the rip cord and we have this going for us. it makes no sense. under the argument. >> it may not make sense, but they're just facts, kellyanne. >> no, no, they're not facts. you don't know -- >> michael cohen hatched the plan. >> president trump has said that i never directed anybody to do that. >> i know he said that. but it shows --

>> but why -- >> the evidence shows otherwise. >> where do you see the evidence christopher. >> the tape we have -- >> no, your agenda wants you to show otherwise. >> you want me to -- let me know when you're ready. >> before you do that, let's stipulate something as happily former attorneys both of us. >> still licensed. >> you are stipulating things as fact because you want them to be fact. >> untrue. >> you want them to be true. >> untrue. >> you imkbu credibility to people depending on who they are, and what -- >> not true, these are diversionary tactics. >> no -- >> we have a tape with president trump and michael cohen discussing the transaction. david pecker saying the president knew, he was present and we did it in order to help his campaign. fact, fact, fact. >> no, no, no, that is not what he -- that is what he thought he was doing. he wasn't part of the campaign, in fact, every single time that you -- that cnn has referred to david pecker or may i say

michael cohen, you've never said they were part of the campaign. >> they don't have to be part of the campaign. >> you had michael cohen, who i've known for 12 years and served on a trump world tower board with, i've known him for a long time. every time cnn had michael cohen on as a guest, you identified him as the executive vice president of the trump corporation. you never said he was on the campaign. why is that relevant? you want these things to be in furtherance -- >> it doesn't have to be -- >> why is it not a fact that the president of the united states said he has never directed michael cohen to break the law. he hired counsel and he believes counsel, advice of counsel, professionals are paid to do what they're being asked to do. >> fair point, kellyanne. >> where's your knowingly and willfully. >> let's lay it out, this is one of the contradictions. >> no, not a fair point, a fact. a fact. >> fine, call it a fact.

you should be able to follow your lawyer's advice if that person is your lawyer. which takes us to one of the contradictions. here was the president looking at this on two different ways on the suitability of convenience. >> why did you hire michael cohen, he was known as a fixer. >> first of all, he did very low level work. he did more public relations than law. i never directed him to do anything wrong. whatever he did, he did on his own. he's a lawyer. a lawyer who represents a client is supposed to do the right thing, that's why you pay them a lot of money, et cetera, et cetera. >> those two things cannot go together. either he was a low level pr guy. who wasn't really your lawyer. >> yes, they do. >> or he was your lawyer who was telling you what to do. the president just said both. >> christopher, no. you literally played the clip of the president, in his own words that he stated today. and then you paraphrased them. you're not being honest. >> the people just heard it. please tweet me and let me know if i got it wrong.

>> then you felt the need to paraphrase and -- >> not at all. >> i'm characterizing something that's obvious. >> what this all means. >> nope. >> so the president. the most important thing the president just said that goes to the essential case here, is that he never directed michael cohen to break the law. wy is that not important or credible to you? it's important and credible to the rest of the country, except for the people so blinded by their hatred toward him or their wishful thinking that he won't be president if they just close their eyes and click their heels three times, he won't be president and someone else will be, or she will be. get over it. >> no. >> the day before he legislation knee, you were on bended knee, in front of a chart -- the map of the whole country it literally said, uno mas. she needs one more state. >> i've never been on bended knee except when i proposes. >> i'll pull it up, i'll find it. >> i don't care about the election. >> i'm looking at a blank camera and you're reading a

teleprompter. >> i'm not reading a teleprompter, i'm looking at your face. >> no, you can't talk about this, and then say i don't care about the election, why are we talking about the election? >> what may have affected the election, and the president telling the truth. >> but you don't want to talk about the election. the president is telling the truth. >> he isn't. here's how we know. >> excuse me. >> the president said he knew nothing about the story. >> if you're going to talk about facts -- if you're going to filibuster, be fair. >> it's not filibuster, i'm giving you an opportunity. you have to let me lay out the facts. >> you're supposed to ask the questions. >> he said on the plane, i know nothing about the stormy daniels -- >> no, no, no -- >> the truth is, he knew everything about it. >> christopher, that was april. 1kw4r. >> we have him on tape saying it. david pecker says he was there. it is incontrovertible, that is why prosecutors believe it. >> whoa! it is not. you're way offline, you're showing partisan stripes,

respectfully. you cannot say it's incontrovertible when it is -- >> that he knew? incontrovertib incontrovertible. >> hold on. that's not true. when the president said -- let me speak, please. don't invite me on. i'm the only person in the white house that will come on. >> that is their mistake. they should not be cowards. >> the president said in april -- they are not cowards. they're wonderful people. the president doesn't like to be interrupted at 9:00 at night. the president said in april on air force one. did you know about the payments? he said no. i asked the president, what did you mean by that? by april of 2018 the whole world, based on the stormy daniels revelation. >> good point, why did he lie. >> he wasn't talking about what he knew in april. he did not lie. he's talking about when the payment was made. i asked him that, and i said it on a couple sunday shows that very next weekend in april or may. i asked him, what did you mean. he told me. >> why didn't he ever clarify

it. >> hold on, he sends me, we do. we did qualify, it's important. christopher, in april of 2018, donald j. trump the president and everybody else were told about the payments. >> he knew about it from its inception. he came up with the plan. >> no, no, no, hold on. you're saying incontrovertible based on the testimony of people who are trying to get a better deal and a lighter sentence for themselv themselves. be fair here. >> i have a tape of him discussing what to do with michael cohen. >> no, you have a tape -- >> yes? >> christopher, i've been involved in conversations like that on the 26th floor, not like that, but -- >> i was going to say, god for bid. >> no, no, no, hold on, but tell me this. cnn, you included, nobody out there said, you know, i think that donald trump is going to win this election unless he was paying off some of these women. >> it's not a relevant question.

you. >> said he couldn't win. >> it's not a relevant question. >> it's very relevant. >> what's relevant is whether he told the truth about it. >> the payments were made in furtherance of the election. >> no -- >> you can't just play lawyer on fv. there's a statute. and the statute says in further answer of an election. >> right. >> now, it's got to be a campaign expense. these are personal expenses in furtherance of the election. >> they could have a personal election and campaign motivation. >> you want it both ways. >> no. that's what the judge said in the john edwards case. >> that's a totally different matter. let's review, john edwards was a presidential campaign sleeping with his videographer paid $1 million. >> she was also the mother of his child, and there were support payments being made. he was indicted, charged and indicted and went to trial. and he was acquitted on one charge and hung on two others. i don't know if it's the best

analogy for you. >> but, wait a second, at least he had the opportunity to do what you're not giving president trump -- >> i give if to him every night, if he wants to come on here and make the case, i'll give him a whole hour -- >> no, no, no, no, no. which is under oath. this is tv, you can't convict someone, indictment someone -- >> i don't want to convict anyone. i want the president to keep himself out of harm's way. >> you're out of bounds. no, he's not. no, no, no, no. you just like to say the president lies. it goes viral. >> honestly, i don't like it. i really wish i didn't ever have to say it. >> he said today that he never directed michael cohen to break the law. that's what the president said. >> michael cohen and david pecker both deny that. they get frustrated with me because they think we're too balanced on this. they don't want me to have you on. >> they're mad at you for having me often. they don't want you to have me on, and my aunt rita said today,

i don't know why you go on with him, he's not nice to you. >> come on. >> christopher, listen, your viewers don't want me to -- >> come on, you know i'm fair. >> come on, can you please let me speak, please. >> go ahead. >> they don't want you to have me on for a simple reason, they accept if not expect you and the rest of cnn to be anti-trump all day long. you know it. you don't have the same viewership that cnn once had, people want it right down the middle. >> you spin a lot, and you ignore what is obvious fact. >> are you going to call me a liar? >> if i have to i will. >> you're calling -- oh, really, i dare you to do it. what is it i lied about. >> i'm not saying you're lying. >> i don't have a teleprompter with people telling me what to say. >> i don't have a teleprompter, nobody's telling me what to say. you're very clever. >> here's your twitter need, it says on bended knee.

uno mas. i've never been on bended knee. this is a picture -- >> it's a joke, the picture is a joke. >> you're on bended knee. fortunately, there's no american flag there. >> the picture is a joke. you're suggesting i was so desperate for an outcome, now i want to punish the president for winning. that's untrue. >> no, what i'm suggesting is -- >> i'm calling out obvious -- >> here's what's silly. >> controversies. >> no, it's not obvious. >> david pecker says he was at the meeting. >> it's not obvious. >> michael cohen says he knew all about it. the tape says he knew all about it, why deny it? >> michael, you're imbuing credibility to people who are playing to your wishful thinking. you shouldn't do that. the president of the united states said he never directed michael cohen to break the law. i want to tell you something, if a person -- in an individual particularly a wildly popular,

very well known wealthy entrepreneur would do something -- whether he was running for federal office or not, and he does it anyway, as one of his lawyers have stated, sometimes you're trying to get rid of a nuisance. sometimes you're trying to save your family from embarrassment. and this -- this is what happened -- >> you can have multiple reasons for doing one of these transactions, you don't have to direct the action to be part of the action. that's just the law. and it -- >> you're not giving credence to those. i want to know, why, why these folks should be paid -- >> it's just about the truth, that's all. >> you are, though. you don't want to hear from the defense many. >> that's not true, i'm having you on for exactly this seasrea. >> it's an incontrovertible fact -- >> that the president knew about what was being done with these payments. you know it, i know it. he knows it. you. >> don't know it. no, we don't know that. i don't know that, i'll tell you why. >> that's why you're saying now it's not a crime. >> just like your phony bologna

illusion, delusion russia collusion which you don't talk about any more. >> i don't know what you just said. >> -- the cellar now? >> listen, i say what the facts suggest. >> you wanted it to -- oh, what the facts suggest. >> that's what we do in journalism. >> here's a good opportunity, a very natural inflexion point for me to remind the donors to the gofundme page for stormy daniels that they have given their money to possibly donald trump, since she raised a little bit more than half a million, the last i noticed and nearly 300,000 of that they've been ordered to pay to don. congratulations the people who paid money to stormy daniel, you actually paid it to donald

trump. i can't see your face, i'm looking into a blank camera. >> why must you feel the need to insult me personally to make a case. >> i'm not insulting you, you're insulting me, and you're insulting the president of the united states. >> i am not. >> i'm not taking a shot at them, i'm thanking them. they're now paying for the president's attorneys fees. i'm thanking them. i want to thank them, that their money is going to a great cause. it's going to pay -- >> let's get back on point why the lying matters. >> don't call them facts. >> look, you don't have to like it. >> incontrovertible facts. >> that's what they are. >> you're reading, you're reading a document, and by the way, federal election -- >> you made your point. >> campaign finance experts today -- no, campaign finance experts today said there was -- this was an aggressive prosecution, a very aggressive liberal reading of the campaign finance laws in the southern district. you have to know that --

>> michael cohen pleaded guilty to it, david pecker admitted that they did it. >> he pleaded guilty to a lot of things. >> why plead guilty if he didn't do it. why would david pecker say he did it if he didn't do it. trump is trying to help him out for years to his own risk. >> christopher, in august of 2015, what are you saying happened that didn't happen in august of 2016 that i wasn't made -- just like russia collusion, i never talked -- >> all i'm saying is, he knew what was happening with the women. he was aware of it. he helped hatch the plan -- >> so where's your nexus? where's your nexus? >> no. thank you for saying that. >> cnn is on no solid ground to show a nexus. no, no, this is important. under your argument -- >> you want to look at the nexus with michael cohen and russia, i'll give it to you. >> any entrepreneur. >> forget about it, i don't want to have a legal debate about whether or not it's a crime. i'm telling you, i'm not worried about the prosecution, 25ez not

my focus, my focus is the truth. >> i didn't say that, you said that. your focus is not the truth. >> and says that he was negotiating -- >> your focus is not the truth. >> when the president said he had no financial relationships with russia. we now know that wasn't true. >> your focus -- hey, christopher, do you think that the russians influenced the outcome of the election? >> i don't know. but here's what i do know -- >> cnn -- >> michael cohen was trying to get a deal done for the president of the united states -- >> incontrovertible facts. >> i don't give an opinion -- >> no relationship. >> i don't give an opinion about what i don't know. that's your job. >> you are trying to -- not the truth as you want it to be. >> the president said he had nothing working. and then michael cohen says, i lied to congress about it because i -- >> where's the russia collusion? >> -- and i -- >> that's what he said. that's not what the president asked him to do. that's what he wanted to do. >> about what my testimony would

be. do you know who michael cohen talked to that was close to the president about what the testimony would be? have you ever heard of that before? >> not me. >> do you think it was somebody else? do you know if anyone heard what michael cohen was going to testify to before congress? >> me? no, why would i know that? >> because you're very close to the president. you were there during the campaign and you're part of the administration. >> right, and isn't that important here. wouldn't all your viewers love to watch me be frog marched because i includeded with russia and paid off women. no, no, no, no such things. cnn's not on solid ground here for a simple reason. >> the president didn't tell the truth about what he was trying to do with russia. >> you failed to do that. >> that's not the bar. you. >> promised people -- up until 2016. >> that's not the bar. >> -- that there was no way donald trump could win. >> telling people -- >> 92% chance -- you did not think this mattered.

>> find me telling people there will be collusion, prepare yourself for disappointment if you think the mueller probe is going to end the presidency, i don't see it. >> under your reading -- so here's what i want to ask you, the president's been in office 600, 700 days. >> what's your question? >> 700 days? look, there's my question, in all those days, really, since he's -- before he was even elected, since he got elected, and definitely since he's been president of the united states. do you know how just consistently and unapologetically and ruthlessly and unnecessarily negative you and your network have been toward the democratically elected president of the united states opinion. >> do you know how -- >> you cover very little on the economy, to peace -- >> that's not true. >> why are we talking about it. >> i went down to the border and did an exclusive tour with cbp about their struggles to keep us safe down there. it's not true.

but it's also immaterial. >> yeah, they are struggling and they could use some help. >> why did the president -- >> no, it's not immaterial. they could use some help on border security. no, no, they could use help on border security. >> stop talking about just a wall. you're not helping them with their real challenges. >> no, they need border security. we are responding to what they have told us they need. >> and he's denying -- >> you and one of your other anchors called it caravanished, did it vanish or did it make it up. >> and now they're sitting there. >> in tijuana mexico. >> a system that can't handle them, you won't give them more judges. >> no, no, you do. because congress failed to act. and this president has been there. >> you'll shut down the government over a wall, but you won't negotiate any of the points that matter more than that. >> christopher, this is about border security, you're going to let me speak now because i'm the guest. this is about border security,

the president has made clear he -- his first and solemn duty in this country is to keep us all safe. that includes border security. he's asking for a little bit more money, and if you look at all the nonsense. >> he's not asking for a little bit more money, he's asking for a lot of money. >> he's asking for 1/50th of what the counsel on economics estimates it would cost our country for heroin disorder. >> the heroin's not being walked across the border either. >> out of here. >> it comes through ports of entry almost exclusively. and through tunnels. and you know it. >> not almost exclusively. that's ridiculous. >> you know that, this is your bailiwick. i know it, but you know it too. >> hold on, you want to talk about border security. >> no, i really want to know why the president lied about negotiating a deal with russia. that's what i want to know, but

you don't want to answer it. >> he didn't lie. i want to talk to the american people about border security. >> he said to cameras, i'll play you the sound. >> you're just being ridiculous. you really are, i'm not going to listen to your sound. because i want to tell people about border security. and i want everybody to know about the 26 democrats that voted for border security. >> it should be a lot more. >> those included -- no, no, no, those included, you know who they were -- >> price tag for a wall that's not going to be built. >> senator chuck schumer voted for secure fences, senator hillary clinton, senator joe biden and senator barack obama. so they're not voting for secure fences here. >> keeping us safe -- and you know it. >> that's not true. it would help. you know -- >> it would help, but it's not -- why does the president make it a single issue. i'm going to shut down the government for a wall. >> he doesn't make it a single issue. >> mel, play the sound of what he said about the shutdown.

>> i will take the mantle of shutting it down, i will shut it down for border security. that's what he said. >> border security. well, christopher, you're lying. >> don't shut down the government, he tweets. >> border security. >> which is it, are you a tough guy that wants to shut down the government over a wall. >> border security is national security. border security is national security. you're lying. you are lying incontrovertibly when you say a wall. instead of border security. >> i want to get back to this -- >> so the president today -- no, no, the president today had the governors in, democratic and republican governors who were just elected. >> great. >> he had them in to the cabinet room. you're like great, oh, no. >> keep going, use the time. >> i want to talk about the government working. >> it's a little bit of a distraction from what i'm asking many. >> how we can all work together. >> he should work with governors. >> for an unusually odd reason. you're not looking at the cnn

polling, the polling doesn't say that michael cohen and david pecker are yesterday's news, and even russia and all that, that's not top of the list in the cnn polling. why do you ignore your own polls. >> the midterms were a call for guardrails on this white house. >> for what? >> people want this president checked. >> is that what it was, really? i heard they're running on medicare for all. >> that's why i'm asking you these questions. >> i heard socialists. >> not because of criminal exposure. >> he lied about the deal, the payments. >> no, you just want to say that. >> we haven't to find out if he's telling the truth about what he knew of different aspects of russian interference. >> how do you know -- i'm not going to allow you to say the president -- i don't want to allow you to cast the truth on what you want it to be, and based on a couple people in an indictment many i'm going to -- or in a statement. i'm going to allow you to wait until you read the reports, until you read the answers that the president has given under the written answers he's

provided. but you are playing wishful thinking here, you did it, you all did it on the kavanaugh thing, you heard in one side and you had journalists acting like activists on your network as did other people. they weren't being journalists, they were being activists. there's nothing brett kavanaugh can say. and then he got to speak. >> why are you talking about that now? you like to spray it around, this conspiracy theory of everything -- brett kavanaugh the justice has nothing to do with this discussion. >> he's a justice on the supreme court. he has everything to do with it, what you want to do is be an activist and not a journalist. >> is he the reason that the president lied about collusion with russia. >> it's a great example of how you lie, you and your colleagues. >> you said i shouldn't call you a liar, you call me a liar many times. you see the difference in our tactics? i treat you with respect. >> you are engaging in wishful

thinking. >> my wishful thinking is that i didn't have to cover friday of this, that i didn't have to worry about a president being fact checked every time he opens his 340u7b8g on a material issue. >> let's take a random day in the white house and talk about it. let me talk about everything that went on today. >> no, i don't want to hear about what went on. >> you're not interested in that. the president's viewing -- >> i'm worried about the president saying today, gm is getting rid of these jobs, but those jobs will be absorbed in two minutes. >> it's not about texas, it's not about my daily calendar, it's about all the things that happened today. >> i have a daily calendar. >> what does that mean? >> it means i don't care about everything that happened at the white house today. >> why -- things that happen that affect people. >> no, this is a focus show, i'm focusing on the contradictions in the president's case. i care about the contradictions in the president's case. >> you don't want him to succeed. >> kellyanne, say that again.

you want my audience to believe that i don't want the country to succeed? >> no, not your audience. your audience is your audience. >> imagine if i said something like that to you. >> or else you would be telling your audience. >> imagine if i said something like that to you. >> you're sitting here -- >> imagine. >> you're sitting here telling -- oh, stop. >> when you say, it's okay. >> you ask a white house guest to come on and you don't. >> you can be as insulting as you want, and it's okay. >> i'm not being cheap or base. >> you call me a liar. i don't want the country to succeed. >> no -- >> some would argue that is treason by the way. >> no, i don't -- >> you guys throw words around down there. >> i'm going to talk to someone who has 40 followers on twitter. >> i give people respect regardless of the number of followers. i'm here to engage. i'm not here to duck. >> i'm not here to smear people. and i'm not here to insult my way out of a question.

that's not me. >> you insulted the president of the united states tonight. and i have to tell you, i'm one of many, many millions and millions of americans who are fed up with it. >> when? 6 in 10 americans say that this is a serious matter, that has to be investigated. you just got trounced in the midterm elections in the popular vote, because people want this white house checked. >> and guess what, you're not investiga investigated. you're not the investigator. >> yes, we are. we work off the facts. that's why i broke that tame. i knew it was going to matter that the president was lying about this. >> why don't you tell everybody -- hey, christopher, the president said just today, i never directed michael cohen -- >> he doesn't have to have directed the action to expose liability. >> i'm asking you why that's not a fact to you. >> the president saying it? >> why isn't -- >> if it can be corroborated it is a fact. a fact needs to be corroborated. >> oh, but hold on. >> unfortunately, he lies a lot. >> that's why, just like michael

cohen. -- >> he's doing a great job. >> his credibility is suspect. >> he's doing a great job for this country. it may not matter to you that people have more money in their pockets -- >> take a look at my taxes in new york -- >> oh, poor you. >> no, not poor me, but you're not being accurate. that's all. >> here's what's accurate. i talk to people every day. >> here's what's accurate. he's all about people who are making a lot of money. >> i talk to people every day, who are not you, in manufacturing, construction, mining. >> are they being told they'll get jobs back in ohio in two minutes. is that the truth? those gm jobs are going to get picked up like that. >> grants that languished for ten years, he's done so much good for this country. and i hope you'll hold -- >> i haven't said he hasn't done good things for the country. >> we want to work with him on

infrastructure, prison reform. >> good. let me ask you one more thing. >> you don't focus on that. >> let me ask you one more thing. >> you don't focus on that. you exclude information from people. >> when you wanted to talk about opiods, i brought you on, we talked about only that. >> you can't possibly -- for a half a segment. and thank you for that. >> this is longer than we've had you on any other show. >> that's not true. that is not true. >> really? >> by the way -- >> what show. >> we didn't talk about opiods for 20 minutes. >> yes, we did. >> it doesn't matter who gives me time on opiods. because of this president we have the single most comprehensive law on the drug crisis. >> that's a good thing. >> it passed with every democratic vote in the house and senate. >> it's a good thing. >> the bill that donald trump signed into laugh. it's not relevant to you. >> i just said it's a good thing. i had you on my show to discuss

it. stop being so abusive of reality. >> you're not telling people what's going on. >> the fact betray your own reality. >> that's one thing we work on. you're being dismissive of people that are grateful they have jobs now. >> i'm not -- >> you are, you're being dismissive. i'm here for them. >> i want to ask you something. this butina the alleged spy, there's this real weird thing that happens at one of the candidate -- not yet president's rallies, press conferences, where he called on her i think second, not first. it was reported she was first, i think it was second. he called on her, and she asked a question about sanctions. do you know about why he would have called on this person to ask a question about sanctions? >> i know zero, and i know zero about her. i don't believe i've ever met her, if i have, i certainly don't remember. i'm not sure he's so familiar with her either, because we were

watching the news today, and -- >> why did he call on her? >> i have no idea why. when was that, allegedly. >> the beginning of the campaign. if you -- >> okay, but again -- there you are. >> hold on, they're telling me, july 11th, 2015. it was a long time ago. >> oh, for god sake, and then you're back to august 2015. christopher, focus on the winning part of the campaign, where none of you thought he could win, let alone -- >> she pleaded guilty to being a russian spy and asked a question of the president about sanctions. meanwhile, she was working the nra, i don't know why she asked about sanctions. >> you want to talk -- that i know nothing about. but let me ask you something. >> i accept your answer. >> this president has sanctioned many different russians and expelled some from this country. >> wasn't happy about it. >> when he was felt -- >> he wasn't. congress told him to do it, he didn't want to do it. >> i love when the reporter said, here's his mood, here's what he's thinking today. >> i don't say that.

i be do the have reporting on his mood, it's irrelevant to me. >> it's always sources familiar, former official. >> my job is to test the white house. >> no, your job is to -- but you, come on, you can test me, but you have to be honest about the way you do it. >> i really think i am, i think i'm pretty transparent. >> you're assigning -- yes, i can't deny that, you are very transparent. but you look at that -- >> you mean that as a pejorative. but i mean it in terms -- i know you mean it as an insult. >> no. >> i don't take shots at you or the president. >> trans parent. >> i'm just talking about what is. >> you called the president tonight a slur that i am not going to repeat -- >> slur? i never. >> you say he's not telling the truth. >> he lies a lot. >> today he said, true or false today he said he never directed michael cohen to commit a crime. >> i am not going to take the

president at his word when he has a record of lying about these things. he didn't know about the stormy daniels payment. he said the guy was a pr agent, then he says he's his lawyer. then nothing happened, then we have the tape with his voice on it. the facts are overwhelming. they really are. >> the facts are not overwhelming. >> that's why i ask. >> oh, thank you, in a took you 25 minutes. it doesn't expose him to anything now. >> it is not the law of the land, but it is the guidance of the doj, and until it changes, i don't know how they could indict him. >> i'm asking you, i'm asking you, what relevance all of this has to the -- >> telling the truth to the american people. >> lying about doing deals with russia? >> no, you're not telling the truth. you're not telling the truth. >> to get ride of sanctions, at the same time you're at a convention taking it easy on russia? >> oh, come on. you're making excuses. >> this is coincidental for things that need answers. >> for a president you never

wanted elected. and a president you won't cover fairly. you should just own it. >> that's a distraction. i'll tell you what i own. i appreciate you coming on. >> it has a lot to do with politics and feelings, and you interrupted your guest. you don't do that with all of your guests. >> i interrupt everybody all the time, because i can't let it be a spin -- >> you had the wonderful head of the cpb and you did not interrupt -- >> he was not spinning me. >> america was informed. >> he was not spinning me. he was speaking truth. >> when you talk about the cpb, you should ask all those ill informed people who come on, we need to abolish ice, we don't need border security. >> nobody says they want open borders, not elected officials who are relevant. >> they voted against it. president obama said -- >> they're for open borders or not for border security, they will get tested and tested heavily, because that's absurd. i haven't come across it once. >> they're for keeping the borders open or for keeping the government open. >> i don't think -- that's around argument for them to

make. >> yes, it is. congress has failed to act for years on immigration. >> they failed to -- >> and everybody's business. >> and they offered the president a deal that he walked away from when the republicans told him that he needed to ask for more. so it's a little more complex than that. >> i'm going to tell you respectfully, you are irresponsible night after night saying what you say about the president, with absolutely no facts and no proof. >> and i disagree. >> it's wishful thinking, you're playing to the audience or other ppz have you to be fair. you can't just say -- >> kellyanne, i think i am. >> no, based on your own predisposition. you're not being fair and you're not gaining an audience of people who don't want to hear that. >> the team that works on this show. and gives me information every night -- >> anti-us. >> works their ass off to make sure they get things right on a regular basis. >> no question. but you are selecting and curating. >> we're not selecting and curating. >> you're selecting and curating. >> we have people on every night, we test both sites, we're fair, you may not like the

testing, that's different than it being unfair. i appreciate you coming on the show. >> no, that's not true, it's not unfair. go look at your own cnn polling. >> i'll look at it, 6 out of 10 say this is a serious matter that must be investigated. >> yeah, that's one poll number. they also say the economy is most important to them and health care. >> of course they are. that's why they voted democrat so heavily, because of what happened to health care. >> some of them didn't, what happened in the senate. no, no, no, i get the last word because i'm your guest. >> go ahead, take it. >> the four senators who voted against brett kavanaugh all lost in indiana, north dakota, minnesota and florida. bill nelson lost this time. >> pretty close race. >> and the democratic senator -- pretty close race? he won by a million votes the time before. >> i'm saying nelson versus scott was a pretty close race. >> they don't want people stale

in their thinking. >> kellyanne conway brings the heat, no question about it. let's bring in some legal minds to assess what was helpful and not to the president's case, next. hi, i need a thriller for my wife. political or psychological? psychological. small town or big city? small town. methodists...or mules? mules. how's this? signed?! no way. nobody knows thrill seekers like we do... barnes & noble ...and i found out that i'ma from the big toe lian.

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but not so much about what market volatility may do to their retirement savings. that's because they have a shield annuity from brighthouse financial, which allows them to take advantage of growth opportunities in up markets, while maintaining a level of protection in down markets. so they can focus on new things like exotic snacks. talk with your advisor about shield annuities from brighthouse financial- established by metlife. we have two great legal minds for you. neil cadyal and robert ray. it's great to have you on. >> let's just clear something up here. put the noise to the side. two quick points and you guys tell me if i have it on. what we learned from the john edwards decision is, if one of the reasons you're making a

payment is to help your campaign, that's enough. >> secondly, the president didn't need to direct the action to be exposed to that same action, i'm not saying he's going to be exposed to criminal liability. again, as i said to kellyanne, i don't know how that happens as a practicality. do i have those two basic assessments right. >> you do. and sitting here and watching that -- i have respect for kellyanne conway. >> what about me? did you see the beating i took there. >> she is the president's best defender. all you heard about edwards was gobblygook. the bait and mirror was not working. did the president lie about these payments? there's no question that he did many in april of 2018. he was asked, did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? no, no. so now they've switched to this edwards kind of reasoning.

>> right. >> kellyanne conway was talking about how campaign experts agree with her. that's preposterous. >> even if so, neil. let me bounce this over to mr. ray, i've leaned on you plenty, during this process, for your accumin, counselor ray, and it's good to ask you here once again. i'm not making this about whether or not the president is guilty of a crime. i'm just talking about the lying. the idea that we don't know that the president wasn't telling the truth about what he knew and what his role was with his payments is absurd. i'm not saying that makes him guilty of a crime, i'm not saying anything of it is a crime. i'm just saying the idea that he was telling the truth about what he knew and when, is obviously untrue much is that a fair statement? >> what does that have to do with whether or not there's an impeachable offense first, and second, whether or not he was as many, many people have tried to

suggest, including on cnn and elsewhere, that he's essentially a co-conspirator in connection with the campaign finance violation. i think there's a long distance between what michael cohen pleaded guilty to, and whether or not the president of the united states was involved and knew that what was being done was an illegal corporate campaign contribution in kind of payments to stormy daniels and others, in order to keep them silent. in order to influence an election. and, you know, look, i think we just -- you know, kind of need to keep track of the forest from the tries. that is an important issue, and i do think that -- you know, it's important to note that the president has already suggested in all of that, look, i hired a lawyer. i am not a lawyer myself, my

lawyer obviously, i assumed was acting appropriately, provided me with legal advice. and until it's suggested otherwise, that there was somehow, something improper here. i think the president has a substantial defense to any suggestion -- >> a criminal defense. >> well, sure, look. i mean are -- but chris, it's not just a criminal defense, it's in connection with any notion that there might be an impeachable offense here, which i think is ridiculous. >> let's bring neal in on this. >> time will tell. >> impeachable is very different. impeachable is what the people feel it is. it's whatever congress thinks it is. and lying can get you in trouble, right? nixon told us that famously for telling his own demise. bill clinton same deal. this president -- >> but it's got to be lying under oath or lying to a federal

agent. there's no suggestion that the president -- >> i don't know -- that's why i always test his veracity, i don't know what he put in those answers. >> i don't know either. >> maybe he said things he felt would be matched by these other men -- >> you can't speculate. >> no, no, no speculation. we know he lies a lot. we know he lied about this transaction. >> that's not the same thing as saying somebody lies under oath. that's the difference. >> look, a lot of -- a lot of people got in trouble here because -- you know, chris, as you well know, in politics, loyalty is a virtue beyond all others, where people get into trouble, particularly underlings, and i've seen this in the nixon administration, in the clinton administration, and now the trump administration, is when loyalty is one thing, but when you then make statements under oath or to federal agents. spouting the party line, and it turns out not to be true. and it can be proved that what you said was false, that's a problem.

>> yeah. >> okay. >> and there's a lot of that around. >> can i say something here? >> he's not the first president or the first administration who's been through this. >> that's true, we've just never seen this much of it or a president who abuses the truth the way he does. >> i don't know about that. >> i think ray is on the same thing of mirrors and missing the issues. the issue is not lying under oath. it's lying to the american people. you just heard kellyanne conway say, people, election experts agree this wasn't a felony. and stuff like that. absolutely preposterous. >> no, i don't -- i don't agree with that. >> let me finish. tomorrow i have an editorial coming out with a republican former chair of the fec. saying this is a very serious violation, the edwards precedent doesn't apply, and the like. the president has denied this today, he says he's acting at the advice of council. this is the same guy who lied to

us in april. i have no idea why we should bring him now. the criminal process will unfold. i think the impeachment process will unfold. time will tell what happened. if i were a lawyer -- >> what they can corroborate. by saying, well, you know, he's lied before. all right. fair enough. but he had his statements in this regard corroborated by the prosecutors as with the mueller probe and what he told them about russia. they said, with respect to this, from the second meeting on, he's told the truth. and the president needs to show the same kind of corroboration to be believed. he can't be just believed as a oneoff. he lies too much. unfortunately that's a reality. >> whoa, whoa. >> go ahead. >> what happened to the presumption of innocence? >> i'm not saying he's guilty of something. i'm saying he's lying. >> didn't he -- okay. that's fine. that's nice that you say and god knows that -- >> it's not a god knows thing. >> that doesn't -- >> i have a tape with his voice on it going through the transaction. >> no, no, no. >> david pecker says he was at

the meeting. >> no. >> cohen said he knew all about it. >> hold on a sec. first of all, with regard to a campaign finance violation, you're talking about something that even if what you say is true, if the president had done this directly, there was nothing illegal about it. there's knoll illegal -- >> why lie about it? why hide it from the american people? you know, during an election, five, ten days before an election, this may been the most significant campaign contribution -- >> it doesn't change the fact that you're trying to criminalize something that -- >> i'm not trying to criminalize it. that's the federal statute. >> if the president had done it directly, it wouldn't have been illegal. >> of course. that's what -- >> the only thing -- by the way, the president's right about this. if he had done it, the only thing that would have illegal about it is arguably a civil violation and that -- >> it doesn't excuse -- >> and failure to report -- failure to report an expenditure. >> this is mirrors. >> it's not mirrors. it's the federal election --

>> i accept the legal debate and see how that plays out. it's never been my concern. the lying is my concern. even if it's not a crime, i don't get why he lied about it. i don't think that that's a slur. >> chris -- >> i don't think that's an opinion -- >> this is the first time you've ever seen a politician lie? >> irrelevant. >> sure, it's irrelevant. the point you're trying to make is trying to equate the fact that lying is the equivalent of making a false statement under oath or perjury which it's not. is there any evidence the president perjured himself or made a false statement under oath? >> no. >> not that i know of. >> there we are. >> i'm with you. i'm tracking the line because i think it matters. >> i hear you -- >> i'm now saying it doesn't matter. i'm saying we're talking about stuff because the issue has been raised about whether or not these are high crimes and misdeme misdemeanors. >> i understand. >> impeachment. >> if you see a patpattern of lg on things that matter to the

american people, it could political exposure. nea l, robert, i appreciate you having on the show. >> be well. president's loyalists are throwing out a whole new set of legal arguments to try to defend him and they may be good and they may not, but it doesn't escape the accountability for telling the truth to you. okay? we're going to get more into this on the political side right after this. life isn't a straight line. things happen. and sometimes you can find yourself heading in a new direction. but at fidelity, we help you prepare for the unexpected with retirement planning and advice for what you need today and tomorrow. because when you're with fidelity, a partner who makes sure every step is clear, there's nothing to stop you from moving forward.

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♪ there's no place likargh!e ♪ i'm trying... ♪ yippiekiyay. ♪ mom. ♪ plenty to debate. let's bring in van jones and amy kremer. thank you for your patience. both of you. amy, let me ask you something. maybe i'm not making this clear. i'm not making a case against the president of the united states. robert ray, you know, neal katyal, they're so much smarter than i'll ever be. for me it's not about the

criminality. it's about telling the truth to the american people. and i don't know why that just because this may not be a crime, let's say, these payments to these women, let's assume it's not a crime, why is lying about it okay? >> look, chris, i mean, the president said he did not have anything to do with it. how do you know that he's lying? >> i have his voice on tape. >> you don't know that -- >> i have his voice on tape saying that he knows about it and directing the action. >> was it his voice on tape? >> yep. >> okay. well, look, you know, i don't know what goes on with the president and his legal team. there are many meetings that go on? a campaign in this administration that we don't have all the information for, but the problem here is that the one-sidedness of what cnn is trying to do, go after this president, and all the mainstream media, not just cnn, you are not talking about hillary clinton and the campaign finance -- >> it has nothing to do with this. >> wait, no, no, i want to make this clear. have you ever asked hillary clinton if she directed money to

pay for the fake russia dossier? have you ever ask ee eed her th question? >> don't need to, we know for a fact she did. >> exactly. >> it's a fact, just like it's a packet the preside fact the women were being paid. >> it was a personal transaction -- >> whether personal or not, he lied about it. that shouldn't be okay for people who are cultural conservatives. because that used to be up of your paramount virtues when you went at bill clinton. the guy's a liar. >> you're acting like -- >> now you're saying lying doesn't matter. let me bring in van. >> wait a second, no, i'm not. do not say i'm saying that, chris, because i am not. i think it's important to tell the truth. >> he's not. >> the truth will set you free. this is the thing. i didn't elect donald trump to be my pastor or my preach ever moral -- >> your president doesn't have to tell the truth? >> i elected him because he's a great businessman and wanted him to get the country back on track. >> he's a great businessman? >> he has a record to prove it.

>> he does not have a record -- >> chris, do you ever talk promises made, promises kept and all the things he's done? your viewers don't ever hear about it. >> that's not true. >> it is true. >> van, come on in on this. >> i think what we're seeing is a great political party, look, i'm a democrat. left side of pluto. proud of it. but there's a republican party that i remember that used to get on my doggone nerves preaching and immoralizing to everybody, telling us we had a president bill clinton who was hurting children and hurting the country and those very same people are the same ones who are out here now spinning and spinning and spinning and this is why order they're regular people just look at all this political stuff and they throw their hands up. it is bad for the country. it's not just bad for the country, for the president to do this, but the republican party should be consistent and should say much more forthrightly it does matter what the president does. it matters what the principal of yfr high school does. it matters what the mayor of

your town does. the presidency matters. his moral character matters. he's failing us right now. it takes nothing away from your matter to say that. it makes your matter struggle when you say that. i wish you'd say it more. >> it doesn't make him a criminal, by the way, doesn't make his exposed to the fec crime, not necessarily, but the truth matters. . that's all i'm saying, amy. >> i want to make something clear, that, look, it is an insult to our intelligence, to the american people's intelligence, to think that we didn't know that this kind of stuff went on. i mean, remember, the democrats, the road to get donald trump -- first hit was trizen with michal flynn. then it was collusion. now we're down to campaign finance? it wreaks of desperation. what the mean people wanted from -- >> this is prosecutors. i'm sorry, amy, it's not democrats doing this. this is procesecutors, lying -- democrats are talking about it and republicans are scared of it. >> i'm not afraid of it, van. >> you won't own it, either. >> van, the thing of it is, why don't we get a special

prosecutor to look into the face russian dossier and the campaign finance violations thats went on there. >> they did look at it, they didn't see it as anything worth investigating. they did this. >> right, right. >> this is all a distraction. amy, your voice is always welcome. >> thuank you, chris. you're going to have me back to talk about e vauivanka's work s doing to stop human trafficking. let's talk about that. >> i'm open to all discussions. a amy, e-mail me. that's the show. i want to give the show to don lee. "cnn tonight" begins right now. >> oh, my god, chris. you know, let's talk about this. >> i was anticipating this this afternoon. >> why? >> i'll tell you why. i believe in exposing what the white house wants the american people to believe. i believe in testing it and i believe when you do that with their best