like this and others, this is what liberation looks like. miles and miles of rubble. >> many here fear that buried in the destruction, the seeds are being sewn for another war. >> welcome to primetime. big news. the president said good-bye to there was no collusion by anyone with russia. his legal team only contests the idea that the president did anything criminal. not people around him. not the campaign. question, could the president really not know what the people around him were up to? and we're learning more about why his lawyer clings so tightly to the idea that if it ain't a felony, it ain't a problem. more proof of wrong doing that may not be a crime but sure

ain't acceptable. michael cohen implicating the president again. this as we learn the president actually parroted a putin talking point to the u.s. media to defend russia from interference claims. and the president apparently didn't like the state of the union snub by pelosi so he cancelled her trip abroad minutes before take off today. does any of this change the shutdown politics? that's our great debate. what do you say? let's get after it. you saw it here in real time. it now consists of all i know is, it wasn't me. everyone else around him, his family, his campaign, here comes the bus. now how we got here matters. we have gone from hope hicks

saying it never matters. that was false. sarah sanders with quote, to the best of our knowledge. that was false. then don jr. tried, but no information changed hands. well that's unknown to us. then rudy giuliani said collusion isn't a crime. probably not unless we're talking about securities law but the president is likely not going to jail and knowing about collusion could sure add to an impeachment argument. now if information was passed, it doesn't matter because they didn't use it. that's hard to believe. he also insists it was just the coffee boy. you know, nobody major in the campaign. then there's the man at the top, the president kept saying this to you over and over. >> there's no collusion between me and my campaign and the russians. there's no collusions between myself and my campaign. >> there has been no collusion between the trump campaign and russia

russians. there was no collusion between the trump campaign and the russian people. >> that's why my face went from this to this. >> i never said there was any collusion between the campaign or people in the campaign. >> yes you have. >> i have not. i said the president of the united states. there is not a single bit of evidence that the president of the united states committed the only crime he could commit here, conspired with the russians to hack the dnc. >> here's the fact. it's not just about him. it's not just about crimes and rudy giuliani knows that better than i do. but don't let his position as a lawyer fool you. this isn't a legal argument. rudy is too smart to prepare a legal defense on tv. his job is to protect his one client. so you saw him circling with the only one they believe will matter but the idea that only crimes count and this probe is way outside of its mandate. they both need to be tested because they're both false and

i'll demonstrate that right now. mueller was ordered to look into, quote, any links and or coordination between the russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of president donald trump. and did he lie about that and is for this argument too far? >> they have gotten so beyond their scope that it's absurd and

destruction of evidence and intimidation of witnesses. perjury or lying. mueller charged lots of folks with that. witness intimidation and obstruction. which rudy says nobody obstructed the investigation. both are accused of that. destruction of evidence, the only report we have that goes there is trump taking the interpreter's notes. the special counsel has charged 36 people on 192 counts with 7 guilty pleas and four prison sentences. keep that in mind when rudy says the only crime here is the dnc hack. >> let's just stay clear. if we find out that the president knew about what manafort or his son or flynn or others were doing and lied about it, he has a political problem that could get ugly fast. there was another point he brought up last night there must

be nothing to the point of his being compromised by russia and here is why. >> the truth about it is if you're doing a counter intelligence investigation and you find any evidence of breech of national security you have to follow up on it because you have to quickly report that to people in authority so they can protect america against the national security breach. they found no such breach. none. >> all right. now we went at it about this and then i said i accept your point. here's why. rudy is right if you think about the rules when he was one of the highest ranking members of the justice department. there was a big demarcation. it wouldn't have transferred that case but the patriot act and 911 act, they changed a lot of the ways that that works. the special counsel is supposed to pick up the investigation that comey told the house intel committee about. so the question is did comey tell the house there was a

counter intelligence investigation? and the answer is yes. >> i have been authorized by the department of justice to confirm that the fbi as part of our counter intelligence mission is investigating the russian government's emfforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election and that includes investigating the nature of any links between individuals associated with the trump campaign and the russian government. >> links, coordination. they're supposed to look at it. let's clear that to the side. one more piece of proof that it doesn't have to be a crime to be wrong. reports today that the president spoke to putin and echoed his defense of why russia didn't do any sbeinterfering directly to . media. that stinks and could loom large in the only court the president is likely to face. that of public opinion.

what do they mean in the scope of the probe? we'll bring in cuomo's court in session, next. to be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪

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>> what about what the president knew about what all of these other people in his campaign and elsewhere were doing? what would mueller do with all of this? let's discuss. >> thank you. thank you. so what stuck out to you in terms of did you perceive a change last night in terms of the legal disposition of the president's team? >> yeah. after my head spun around three times. look. what i heard with him was conceding that there could be collusion or there was collusion in the campaign which not only contradicts everything that he has been saying but we have been hearing for the last year and a half that the mueller investigation was a witch hunt. and he's vindicated the core purpose of the investigation. that investigation expanded.

that was a complaint also. looks like there was a basis and then finally, if you remember, spy gate, the whole idea that there was no reason to go into the campaign, if they are conceding that there was a reason to believe that members of the campaign were colluding with russia, clearly the fbi had a basis to use a nonintrusive tactic to discover more information about what russia might be up to. >> now, i have been very hard on saying don't get stuck on this, it's got to be a crime for it to be wrong basis because if it comes into whether politicians want to act on it, high crime and misdemeanor means as gerald ford taught us, whatever congress thinks it means. you say we shouldn't surrender so quickly. that we don't know that there's crimes going up to the president themselves. >> i'm not confidence that there were crimes. i'm just confident that we don't know whether there were crimes. he said the only crime the president could commit is if he conspired with the russians to hack the dnc. that's not true.

there's campaign finance coordination crimes that he committed. he could have done accessory after the fact. aiding and abetting crimes. so there's a host of things available to prosecutors. all i'm saying is when he says there's only one crime that the president of the united states can commit, that's just not correct. >> that's also a distraction because we know that one of the crimes that has been charged against the russians is a social media disinformation campaign and manafort's passing of internal private polling data would most likely be relationship vanlt to that, if anything. and as you know, chris, if you facilitate any part of that which is a conspiracy to defraud the united states, that would still be a crime also. >> the bad information or the bad fact there is that when the senate intel did digging the

places seemed to be very similar to the ones that the russian trolls were, how did they get that information? was it a consequence or was it the fruit of the polling data that manafort somehow got to them and then there's something else that's going out against the president's favor in the analysis. he didn't know anything. what would he have done if he did know? that's one of the basis of analysis. we're always talking about mueller. would he really act this way? not this guy. the president has shown time and again how susceptible he is to bad actors and bad acts. whether it's the payments to the women. what michael cohen revealed today, that they were paying off somebody to fix polls. that he would meet with putin and be secretive about it, that shows a susceptibility to somebody that might hear that you're up to no good and they're okay with it.

>> and also it means to me that it's hard to imagine that the president was just totally in the dark about what was going on around him. his son don junior said my father is a very hands on manager. he knows -- >> everybody says that. >> he knows these things. so that then has to be measured against the sort of -- defies it to think he din know about the trump tower meeting. he didn't have anything to do with the writing of the false exculpatory meeting or the data on and on and on. that puts him in a very difficult position. he said they put me in the position of either being a criminal or a fool. and that's where donald trump finds himself and giuliani state's exhib isn't helping. >> it's going to wind up being in the court of public opinion. we're going to rely on polls

that we never have before. what percentage of the american people believe what's in the mueller report and we'll start breaking it down because it's going to be thick. we're going to be watching polls. what's the exposure? >> i think the exposure here is the national security risk versus has he committed a crime. he's sitting in the oval office right now. we know that the fbi was worried and had a basis to believe there may be a relationship with russia and they open an investigation. here's the thing, chris, if they were trying to see whether he was, in fact, a risk, and nobody is asking was that investigation ever closed? because if it wasn't, there was something serious there. >> was that answered by what comey said to congress which is we opened a counter intelligence investigation into any possible

links including into the president? that was in the formation document. is that the answer? >> yes, absolutely. what comey said was this was a counter intelligence investigation and it involved collusion and coordination, et cetera. also we learned from the new york times in that story that said that the fbi was looking at the president as a possible asset that they also believed that it was a criminal investigation worth opening. so they opened simultaneously a criminal and counter intelligence investigation and whether he believes that he engaged in such corosive actions.

>> i don't know why the president does things like pushing to relieve the sanctions on the russian probe and why he takes interpreters notes and why he's being so secretive. why would he do these things if he's only worried about the politics of perception and not crimes. >> there was a great piece in wired magazine about exactly that hoping if you will that the president is an asset because otherwise we're in a terrible situation because he's such a playable player. this is straight under the category of you can't make it up. why parrot and protect the moscow meddler? there's a lot of illiteration but this man can take it on. mike rogers, next. -family recipe. can i see it? no.

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the president's lawyer insists there is no proof the president is or could be compromised by russia. but we just learned, the president did reportedly talk to putin and then parrot his talking points defending russia directly to the press more than once. it wound up becoming the official position of the administration. have you ever heard of anything like that? >> well, no, frankly, no. the fact that the president went back to old soviet talking points on afghanistan was a head scratcher, certainly for me. and i don't believe that the

president was an agent of the russians, i just don't. but all of the facts certain think think there's a lack of judgment happening somewhere in his organization. >> it has to be that he's hyper defensive and doesn't trust other people but the consistency of the weirdness with this, taking the interpreters notes, not telling his own staffers about what happens with putin, that session in the oval office, only letting putin's guys be at a meeting. we have never ever.

>> but i am equally concerned about the policy that i see today. it's consistent with what they know including targeting the united states and their allies. that is what is so frustrating with me about this is the fact that they keep looking for permissi permission. >> if he said i know he's a bad guy. i want to cut a deal on x, on missiles, on fill in the blank, that's one thing. >> 100%. >> but we don't seem to be getting to that policy side. we're still in this notion that we'll continue to defend bad practices and they did do some really important things when he took office trump did. arming the ukrainians and doing other things and that was all really good but the policy seems to have stopped dead in it's tracks and you have this weird

narrative coming out of the administration. for me, it defies logic. when you're talking with fraud administers and liars and criminals, listen to what they don't say. that will tell you a lot. what people are going to start to do is go back and say what isn't he saying? why isn't he saying we're going to push back on putin? why isn't he saying putin is doing some bad things. >> that's why i'm chasing the president on steve king. let me ask you about rudy giuliani's interview last night. >> the reason i'm asking you to come on the show is this is going to be a political process, mike. that's what it's going to come down to. i don't see a prosecution of the president in the court system. what struck you last night? >> he was preparing, i think, for a political fight of impeachment. that's what i saw yesterday. he separated the president away from his campaign in a way he

hasn't done before and rudy giuliani is a smart lawyer. i don't think anybody ought to think the guy doesn't know what he's doing. he's separating the president from the campaign, and what's interesting, there's a lot of people, including his family, that had engagements with the russians. this is going to be an interesting play here legally as they move forward and what we know is there were contacts with the russians. now, we don't know -- and i think there is a lot of wiggle room here if the administration was going to say we had one bad guy, manafort was a bad guy that had dealings with the russians, got himself in financial difficulty starting in 2014 and was committing bank fraud as fast as he can print up the paperwork. was he selling information to the russians? was he acting as an agent to the russians? that's a question that i want to know but i think he pulled a stop on any notion that he would be a good witness to the prop cushion and say we're going to

put this guy in jail. there's a lot more to is that story. >> there's good reason for that suspicion. you know what paul manafort is and the idea that they didn't know when they hired him. but you know. you know his past and what he has done to make his money. manafort didn't do all of these things by himself. so who knew and how did the president not know? that may not lead you to any criminal analysis but it could lead you to a lot of water that could mean something in a political analysis. >> no doubt. it gets back to that fundamental question. were they providing this information? poll numbers for the purpose of targeting of certain areas by a foreign power or foreign influence. >> why did they target the same places and faces? >> that's a whole different matter and the fbi, chris, we would call that a clue. so they're going to start looking at this and say we have to understand, that's the

coordination piece that they could prove that the campaign was working with if, in fact, even supplying those poll numbers were to say we're a little weaker than we are and in this state it would be nice if you could do something about propping up these numbers in this state and that's all completely 100% speculation. there's a pattern to lead you to believe that somebody in that campaign either for their own self-service financially or the benefit of the campaign was engaging in conversations with the russians for something of value. and it even goes back to flynn, when he was talking to the russians, all of the people that have been interviewed by the investigation or indicted or pled guilty, all of them told the wrong story on russia and that's why they're finding themselves in trouble with the law. something is going on here. i still haven't seen anything that would tell me that the president is an agent of a

foreign power, but there is a lot of information here that i know that mueller and his team are kind of sifting through and i bet we'll see a lot in that report and i think what you saw with giuliani is he was preparing for that report. that report is probably going to be more than they are saying it was. now it confirms to me that they know what is coming in that report and that could be troublesome. >> one of the things that nobody picked up in the media today, rudy was talking about how long it has been since they heard from the mueller folks on the trump legal team. silence is not golden when it comes to that kind of dialogue. mike rogers, i'll take you ten times out of ten. thank you so much. >> i appreciate it. >> so what happened today in the shutdown show? the president grounded the house speaker's jet cancelling her trip. why? she snubbed him on the state of the union.

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pelsoi's request that trump postpone the state of the union,

tit for tat as americans are still facing financial strain. do we agree that it's not helping anybody? >> sure, i agree. >> i agree some what, chris. >> come on, its easy. >> let me just finish what i'm saying. to say that it's equal i think is wrong because i do believe -- >> what she did was way worse -- >> let her make the case. >> the point that i am making is that this both sidesism suggests the democrats and trump are equally to blame and that's not true because democrats have opened nine times to open the government and mitch mcconnell will not take that up and one other fact that's been lost in all of this is that trump

himself asked if his jubudget f 2019 for $1.6 billion for the wall and the democrats said we'll give you 1.6 billion for border security, for fencing, et cetera, and he said no. so they have been willing to do this. they have offered numerous -- >> no, they haven't. >> yes -- >> governor, governor -- governor, if they were serious she would stand up and say i'll give the president exactly one dollar for the wall. she would show up when the vice president invites her and her colleague to show up -- >> she was in the white house. >> if you said staff -- >> no, she wasn't. she did not show up. she snubbed the vice president. >> they said they would give him $1.6 billion for border security and that's what he asked for in the budget and he said no.

>> the budget is a working document. the president asked for $5 billion. >> initially he asked for 1.6. >> this is not about policy. we know the democrats agreed for a fence, wall, call it whatever you like on the southern border numerous times. lots of high profile democrats have voted for it and spoken out for it but when president trump asks for it, it's we can't find the money. we're going to shutdown the government. >> let me help you out here. just to clarify, i wasn't saying both sides. what i'm saying is these cheap tricks. we don't need it on either side. i'm not saying the shutdown is equal because the president -- >> so they should shut up and negotiate it. >> the president told the

american people i own this shutdown. he owns it. they offered him 25 billion for the wall first. over five years. he said yes, then he said no. then they made another offer to give him what he wants and he said yes and then he said no. now you say they're not offering a dollar because pelosi bungled the talking points but she is giving 1.3 plus for physical barriers. >> there's one other thing. >> one at a time. >> there's one other thing -- >> dave respond to me. >> go ahead. >> yeah. i was going to say, the president could request what he likes. >> they offered a billion dollars. the president wants more. >> so negotiate it. don't shutdown the government. >> that's my problem. >> a agree. you can't negotiate if the speaker doesn't show up to negotiations. you can't negotiate.

>> there's a really important fact here was that congress has -- congress has appropriated in the past two years 1.7 billion for border security and 680 million of it is unspent. >> i guarantee you that money is obligated. >> no it is not obligated. 60% of the 1.7 billion is obligated but 40% is not. >> he sold people on the idea that he was going to build something because he was exaggerating what it was and he said i'm going to build this big concrete wall all the way across and we'll be safe from the brown menace. so he needs the big price tag of 5 plus billion to justify that

big promise. that's what this is about, dave. >> no, it's about building several hundred miles of fencing to secure the southern border. do you not think this country has the right to secure it's border. >> of course it does. but you don't think a wall fixes the problems on the border. >> no, i don't. >> so why spend all the money on that. >> they're not spending all the money on that. they're asking for money for other things as well. for technology -- there's hundreds of millions of dollars for technology, for beds, for more agents, for more judges. >> but his priorities are upside down. he never mentioned those points. thank you for doing that. >> it is large and it is porus and listen, i agree, most of the folks on the southern border,

they're coming here for economic reasons. they're fleaing material conditions but do not think that there are people coming across the southern border who harbor ill will to this country. >> nobody would say otherwise if they know the facts. >> chris, one quick point, do you or the governor think that it is okay to have a poris border. >> nobody does but it's about priorities. if you're worried about illegal drugs give them the infrastructure to catch the cars that are binging the bulk of it across. but that's not what they're arguing about. where do you think this goes from here? >> here's what i would say. this is a terrible precedent to suggest that democrats should cave to a hostage taker and the hostages are 800,000 people. if the president stood up and said i'm not going to open the

government until i fund this priority, this priority being like let's put guns in all schools to arm teachers and the democrats said no -- >> this is about 2020. >> then we'll be back at it. >> this is about speaker pelosi. >> no it's about bad politics. >> she is fearful. >> she is not fearful. >> she feared the left wing more than she fears -- >> the reason we're in this situation is because of the president's fear of the far, far right side of his. >> that's wrong. >> dave you argued compelling tonight. always happy to have you on the show. >> thanks for having me. >> all right. who is going to step up and get people to demand an end to the shutdown? a big shot from the left? from the right? how about a voice that carries

more weight than all politicians put together. i guarantee you know who she is -- oh, i'm sorry. i mean cardi b. here's a taste. >> this [ bleep ] is crazy. our country, all [ bleep ], everybody need to take this serious. i feel like we need to take some action. >> who is going to listen to her? >> 12 million views and counting on instagram. could she be an echo of the people demanding change? next. to be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth.

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can you believe we're almost a month into this shutdown? so we are looking for voices that are going to somehow spark a change. cardi b. is all riled up and she put out a call to action. here it is with a lot of beeps. >> trump is now ordering federal government workers to go back to work without getting paid. a lot of y'all don't pay because you don't work for the government or don't have a job. but this is [ bleep ] serious. this [ bleep ] is crazy. everybody need to take this serious. i feel like we need to take some action. i don't know what type of action

[ bleep ] because this is not what i do. but i'm scared. this is crazy. and i really feel bad for these people that got to go to [ bleep ] work to not get [ bleep ] paid. >> i told people before the break, nearly 12 million views. here's why i wanted to do this tonight. now some people will say who cares what she says? she's a singer. an idiot. i don't care about her. >> hang on. this is about caring for people that are in a bad way. and it's not going to be politicians that drum up the outrage. it's going to be regular people and you get somebody who identifies with people like cardi b. she could start people thinking about something they're not thinking about right now. if people get loud and proud about stop the shutdown, we're against it, politicians act out of fear of consequence. >> why wouldn't people care?

what i'm saying is she started as a reality tv star, right? she has 40 to 50 million followers on social media, on instagram. she was on love and hip hop and she put out a mix tape and then she became an instagram star and now she's probably the most popular music star in the world right now. >> my 8-year-old sings her stuff all the time. >> and she's saying i don't dance now i make money moves, if you see me and i don't speak, that's because i don't you know what with you. that's cardi b. from the bronx. of course you should care about what she says because she is speaking for a lot of people and i'm going to say, i may not agree with her language. that's not necessarily the language that i would use on television, maybe in person, i might use some of that. she is absolutely right. this is ridiculous. if you are being summoned to work without pay, what is a

simil synonym for that. >> for no good reason. >> what kind of people work without being paid? either your an indentured servant or i know she's not regular people. i know she's a big celebrity, but what i'm saying is who knows. it could be those kinds of voices that cad spark people to care. >> the people who know what i'm saying, she's real regular. as a matter of fact she's going to be on the show tonight. i'm kidding. she's not going to be on the show. >> i would have actually watched if that were true. >> see you. >> see my neck moves, my neck's getting better finally. all right, so when we come back we're going to talk a bit about the big thing. the president only a crime, he

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just say, "show me movie week." that's a full week of your favorite hit movies on your tv, online, or on the go with the xfinity stream app. [shouting] it's all on us, and it's all coming soon. you've got some serious watching to do. his lawyer says the president is fine as long as he didn't commit a crime. maybe, if we're talking about a possible prosecution. my argument is what if we're not at trial? what if we're talking about the standard for judgment for an impeachment? then it's about what makes enough lawmakers to feel the president has violated his oath of office that he should be removed. high crimes and misdemeanors is not a legal standard. it comes down to what they'd like to do, and that would likely be a reflection of what

they hear from you and what we tell them about how you feel about it. remember politicians are more likely to act out of fear of consequence than out of good conscious. now we aren't just talking about crimes, we're talking about things that are wrong like lying to you again and again. not a crime but pretty damn wrong. what if he knew about manafort in what could turn out to be his coordinating with russians? what if he knew about the trump tower meeting and of course lied to you every chance he got? now, would he do that? well, we know he would lie about a lot of things including pay loss. michael cohen said the president also directed him to pay an outfit to boofix polls to boosts status pre-campaign. we also learned he's not only okay talking to putin and not letting anyone else know what they talked about, but he

will -- now, this is likely not a crime but it's all kinds of wrong. here's the timing. so he meet with putin in july. the next day the president calls "the new york times" reporter and cnn national security analyst david sanger from air force one. wanting to describe his first encounter with putin. now, this is from david sanger's book. here's the book. trump had asked if he was involved in election meddling, he said. putin denied it and said if we did, we wouldn't have gotten caught because we're professionals. trump told me he believed that explanation. i thought that was a good point because they're some of the best in the world, he said. now, remember the president likely doesn't remember anything about who is good at what when it comes to espionage as he rarely pays attention to briefings and he didn't come into the job as an expert although he thinks he is. what he is doing is accepting putin's opinion. he then talks to more media and hides that putin told him these things. a few days later in july trump

does an interview with reuters and says somebody -- now, by somebody he's referring to putin not saying his intel chips. somebody did say if he did do it, you wouldn't have found out about it which is very interesting point. and then a week and a half after that anthony scaramucci said this. >> somebody said to me yesterday, i won't tell you who, that if the russians actually hacked this situation and spilled out those e-mails you would have never seen it. you would have never had any evidence of them. >> i don't know who this anonymous person is that said if the russians had done it we wouldn't have been able to detect it. >> how about it was the president. >> big surprise. it only took 16 days for putin's defense to become the position of the trump administration. you know what it reminds me of? this. >> from everything i see has no

respect for this person. >> well, that's because he'd rather have a puppet as president of the united states. >> no puppet. >> and it's pretty clear -- >> you're the puppet. >> i don't know. no puppet, no puppet. if not a puppet maybe his parrot. the president doesn't have to commit a crime to do you wrong. and do you wrong in ways that could jeopardize his position. here is the key consideration. if he doesn't want to be perceived as being in the pocket of putin, why does he keep sending signals that he is? i'm not saying he's some asset or agent, manchurian candidate, anything like that. we have no base for that type of suggestion. but he talks to the president again and again, won't let people know, takes notes from an interpreter. there's a probe going on that's targeting certain of these oligarchs as they're called and he now wants to relieve sanctions on one of them and keeps fighting to do so.

why? why would you take putin pfts word for why he didn't interfere. why would such a savvy smart man do that? as mike rogers said and many others, something smells weird. it doesn't have to be a crime to be wrong. thank you for watching. "cnn tonight" with d. lemon starts right now. >> i really want to meet with chris right now and close the door and i don't want anybody to, what does that mean? >> you're using your outside voice for your inside voice. >> right, seriously that's something i don't want people to know. it's obvious, don't you think? otherwise you would memorialize it, you would have your interpreter's notes, you would put your notes into record, i have nothing to hide at all. so what if it leaks? if you're not saying or doing anything wrong, why does it matter? >> i hear you. i hear you. i have to tell you, i have given every scintil