pacific. we dig into the khashoggi killing, the kingdom's relationship with trump and much more. and i'll see you again back here on "gps" next sunday. thank you so much for being part of my program this week. hey, i'm brian stelter. and it's time for "reliable sources," our weekly look at the story behind the story. how the media really works, how the news gets made and how all of us can help make it better. this hour, we're going straight to the source. maggi haberman is here. bill crystal, and jim acosta, from hanoi. plus, why sean hannity is under pressure from democratic lawmakers. and later an exclusive interview with adam mosk. hear his forecast for the future of magazines. but first, what year is it? president trump is cursing and complaining about crowd size and calling journalists sick and whipping up his base. meanwhile, the bigger crowd this

weekend was over at the bernie sanders kickoff event, where he hit the same themes as 2016, and even used the exact same logo. the same outrages, the same argument. so what is actually new? where is the news for us to report? well, this is news. house judiciary chairman jerrold nadler saying he believes trump has obstructed justice and on monday is issuing document requests to over 60 different people and entities. that news in the past couple hours. the mounting evidence of unethical and illegal conduct is what's new. and this week, this part is important, this week it was he will advised in a new way with michael cohen's day-long hearing the first of many. it seems to me the trump beat and law enforcement beat are merging. so let's talk with one of the top reporters who has been covering president trump for years, who knows him better than anyone. maggi haberman is here, white house correspondent for the "new york times," and a cnn political

analyst. maggi, thanks for joining me. >> thanks for having me. >> what a week. we say that every week. but you commented this may have been the president's worst week ever. i know that continues to be a cliche. but continues to be true. >> this was fundamentally different, whether it has a different foretelling of the future i think remains to be seen. but certainly in terms of michael cohen's testimony coming the same day as the summit in vietnam that the president was having with kim jong-un of north korea that did not go well. i mean, it had already been downgraded in expectations multiple times and then the president went and didn't get what he was hoping to get and didn't get anything close to it. and he came back and gave this speech at cpac, which was, you know, a record-setting speech in length, which i think was very -- it was his defense of posture. and we have seen this with him over and over when something goes badly. i think that, you know, we're going to be spending days seeing how the michael cohen testimony is going to impact him. we just don't know quite yet. but it was extraordinary, even if you take away the fact there was not a ton new said

informationally. the setting for this, congress, a former lawyer and fixer to the president, saying all of this on the record, on camera, was jarring. >> on camera. and we may see more as nadler is saying, asking for documents. >> right. >> we're expecting folks to get caught up to testify. we'll see who does and who doesn't. you all broke news as the president was returning from vietnam about jared kushner and how the president intervened to force the government to give kushner a security clearance. now, i assume this is the kind of story that was in the works for, what, days, weeks, months? >> a while. >> and you all happened to publish it after the vietnam summit. was that a coincidence? >> we published it when we had it. and as we know, because nbc had published something related to it a couple of weeks earlier, this is a competitive story. everybody has been trying to figure out what happened with the clearance for a year. and i had gotten a tip several weeks ago that there was this -- kelly had kept some contemporaneous notes and a memo about him being ordered or

directed for clearance and when we were able to publish, we published. >> how have you all tried -- the "new york times," how should we at cnn try to distinguish between the dozens of stories involving the president every week? you know, how do you all make a statement and say, this one matters more than all of the other ones out there? >> this one is -- this one is different, i think, for a couple of reasons. it's important to remember that the president does have the right to do this. this is 100% in his purview, which is why when i asked him the question at which point i already had known that this memo might exist, when i asked him if he intervened to give his son-in-law security clearance, i had thought that he was going to say yes. i did. >> this was in, what, the end of january. >> in the white house interview in the oval office. and i asked him a question, you know, did you tell anyone. and he said -- not only did he say no, he said i'm not sure i have the authority to do that. and he went a little further. and i was surprised by that. i think in this case, you have such a glaring disparity between what he said and what we now

know took place that i think it stands out more. and i think it will -- look, it just raises fresh questions about -- i think chris christie was on chris cuomo's show the other night when the story broke and he had this line about how this is why there is a danger about having family work in the administration. because it impacts certain judgment issues. i don't know what was in jared kushner's clearance file. i don't know what issues the fbi and the cia had flagged. so it's impossible for any of us to really assess independently whether there was a genuine concern. and, again, the president had the right to do it. but then claiming that you didn't do it, i think, is where it becomes a problem. it just becomes yet another brick, i think, as the democratic house is trying to look at what happened. >> so how do you try to get to the truth when you're covering so many people that are defined by their unwillingness to tell the truth? >> well, in this case, we had multiple sourcing for the story. we worked pretty hard on making sure that we had that. that is what we strive to do in any story. but certainly we developed i think a habit during the campaign. and i've talked about this

elsewhere of we would -- we would hear multiple things and there would sometimes be multiple versions of events. we would say if it wasn't clear, x, y, z, says this, but abc says that. you and th and then use pieces of information that overlapped but were related and cut aside anything else. because the sources were such unreliable narrators in other contexts. >> do you feel you are increasingly on a crime beat, criminal beat? >> no, we're covering the white house. i think if this ends up having other aspects -- there has been an investigative beat for the last two years because of the mueller investigation and then for the last year because of the sdny probe, and they do intersect. but i don't think that it fundamentally changes the nature of covering a white house. >> michael cohen's testimony, we mentioned earlier. there were a couple pieces i wanted to ask you about. >> sure. >> one was the buzzfeed report from a few weeks ago. we can put the headline from buzzfeed up on screen. it said in a report that trump

directed cohen to lie to congress. cohen said mr. trump did not tell me to lie to congress but also said this. >> in his way, he was telling me to lie. he speaks in a code, and i understand the code, because i've been around him for a decade. >> so was buzzfeed vindicated? >> i don't think buzzfeed was vi vindicated, no. i don't enjoy the pile-ons and didn't enjoy the one that took place around buzzfeed. i think there was a story there, but i think we already knew part of it, frankly, from cohen's own presentencing memo, which referenced cohen testifying in accordance in directives of the president. i think they wrote a story that went further than what they knew. and i think that when we do that, then we have to deal with the fallout. and so i don't -- i don't think this was a ball-spiking moment. i think that -- i understand if i were the reporters, i would probably argue that it was. >> yeah, that's what they're arguing. >> right. but i think it's an argument --

and listen, they were on to a story, right, just based on what michael cohen said. but what he said is different than what they reported. and at the end of the day, that's sort of the problem. >> cohen was asked repeatedly by so many gop lawmakers about deals. one kind of deal. let's take a look at what kind of deal. >> is there a book deal coming? >> are book deals. >> book deal. >> book deal about your experiences? >> cohen did have a book deal back when he was the president's lawyer. then he backed out of the book deal. now the president is saying there's a manuscript for this book that contradicts everything cohen said publicly and in testimony. is there a manuscript? do we know anything about that? >> the publisher said there wasn't a manuscript. so i don't think it now makes it a manuscript because the president is saying there is one. a couple of things about this. number one, the book deal thing seemed like a -- there were areas where these guys could really go after cohen's testimony, that they actually chose not to. and instead focused on stuff like this book deal proposal. which i guess they were trying to show he's trying to make

money off the president. the president has no problem with people writing books about him when they say positive things. number one. he's tweeted about a bunch of them. but number two, the whole premise of cohen's testimony was, i used to say all these really nice things about him when i worked for him, because i was subservient. and i was committing these acts of loyalty. >> yeah. >> and now i'm not going to do that any more. so this book proposal coming when it came is not a surprise. but my favorite part of the president's tweet, that's what lawmakers need to refer to. that text. not what michael cohen said. >> under oath. here are the president's new tweets in the last few minutes while we've been on the air. he says after more than two years of presidential harassment, the democrats broke the law. hostile cohen testimony given by a lawyer to reduce prison time proved no collusion. his just-written book manuscript shows what he said was a total lie. but the fake news media won't show it. so the president is saying a manuscript that doesn't exist -- >> we're not showing it. >> right. >> suppressing it. >> being kept away from the public. so there is a hint of conspiracy

there. and that's common in his talking points about the media. >> sure. it's common for a lot of things. that there is some hidden hand pulling the strings. but this is the ultimate how do you prove a negative here of a thing that doesn't exist, and you guys aren't showing the thing that doesn't exist. >> what's the most important thing that you have learned on the trump beat that you think all of us need to keep in mind? viewers at home, television anchors? i feel like you know him better than anybody. what do we -- >> thank you. >> maybe better than almost anybody on this beat. what do we need to remember as we hear about all these investigations and all of these -- this legal trouble. always talks about the legal troubles piling up. what do we need to keep in mind? >> you need to keep in mind -- i think this is the thing. look, we don't know where impeachment is going to go. jerry nadler said something different than what we had heard in terms of obstruction of justice. he did not say -- and i think he will be impeached. he clearly knows this -- impeachment is pretty traumatic for a country and i think they're not going to race into

that lightly. i think there is a tendency to act as if every new revelation somehow changes what is going on or changes the path or changes the future. there's a lot of really bad headlines, and donald trump has shown a unique ability to ignore them and refuse to get thrown out of the ring. and at the end of the day, the ring he's in is the oval office. and there is one method for changing power in this country. and it's an election. and i think that people need to bear that in mind. i also think people need to bear in mind generally that not everything is a four-alarm fire. because what has happened is -- if everything is, then nothing is. and i think that not treating every tweet as if it's the end of the world and not treating every, you know, mess-up or lie or falsehood as if they're all equal they're not is important. >> was the security clearance a three-alarm fire or four-alarm fire? >> i don't know that it was a fire. i think it was action the president took that was related to his family that he did not tell us the truth about. directly did not tell the truth. and then went on to explain he didn't think he had the power to do that.

that his daughter said on camera, she was -- there was no special treatment. you know, is there a realm of possibility that she didn't know? sure. but it's -- you know, the clearance was issued at a time when jared kushner really wanted to put to rest the idea that he was under investigation. and the argument that a lot of people around him made was he wouldn't have gotten his clearance if he was under investigation. and abbe lowell, his lawyer, described it to "the times" and cnn as coming from a normal process. and we know clearly now that is not what happened. >> yeah. more to come on that. maggi, thank you. please stick around. quick break here. and then cpac, clearing out in d.c. there's this new campaign called "end the grift." bill crystal is here to discuss it right after the break. acy? its show of strength... or its sign of intelligence? in crossing harsh terrain... or breaking new ground? and to do these things once... or seven times over?

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a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! welcome back to "reliable sources." i'm brian stelter. president trump was giving the most long-winded speech of his presidency at cpac, some moderate conservatives were holding events to, quote, end the grift. these took place in boston, d.c., new york and atlanta on saturday. so grift. grift. it is one of the top words of this political moment. liberals and actually a fair number of conservatives have accusing the president and pro trump media celebs of being

grifters. of selling stuff and exploiting people. and these critics say that this behavior was on full display at the conservative political action committee conference, that's cpac, this week. so i want to unpack what this means, this grifting idea. here to discuss it, bill crystal, director of democracy together. washington correspondent, olivia nuzzi and oliver darcy, fresh back from cpac. oliver, grifting, what does it mean, and why is it coming up so often these days? >> it's basically this idea of exploiting gullible people to sell something, to raise your brand, awareness, and i think it's coming up because, well, look, brian, cpac has always been a representation of where the republican party is, where it's going and not sure it was ever this place for intellectual discourse as some people would say. but it has in recent years become more like trump. it's a celebration of trump, and so you see a lot of grifters. people throwing red meat rhetoric at crowds.

guys like charlie kirk, michelle maukin, trying to get subscriptions to their organizations. so it's no longer any pretense of discussing intellectual philosophy about conservative movement. it's now about really raising a brand, owning and selling your books to these people. >> guys like dan bongino sells survivalist stuff, kind of jump that people don't really need. booker, you were promoting this end the grift idea yesterday. what is it? >> you know, just on grift, eric hoffer, intellectual from the '60s, wrote a book called "the true believer," has this line that goes something like every great movement begins as a cause, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket. and i do think at cpac we saw the racket in full display. along with a few true believers and then some decent people who

just thought this is a place to discuss conservative ideas. but that was about 10% of cpac. used to be maybe 60 or 70%. heath mayo, a young guy. i talked on the phone once, met in d.c. just tweeted a couple weeks ago saying, hey, this cpac thing is ridiculous. let's discuss ideas, see if we can get some people together to do that. out of this one tweet came i think 12 gatherings the last couple days, a couple more tonight. in 12 different cities. about 1,000 people in total. he thinks -- i went to one in d.c. for half an hour, a little early to come to cnn which i suppose shows my misplaced priorities. it's a wonderful group of people. a lot of young people. it's interesting. i mean, a lot of young professionals, as heath is. 30, 35, 40. getting together. they -- everyone paid for his own beer. or whatever. and, you know, they get to know people and have some discussion about conservative principles. some people were quite

conservative, some much more moderate. a couple of token liberals, good to see. so it's -- it shows there is some market. i think we see this in the bulwark, too, the website i'm associated with. this there is a market for nontrump conservatives. but it's not nothing either. >> it's partly about rejecting scammers and liars and con artists just trying to sell a bunch of bs to a conservative audience. you know? shame on them. and i like the fact that the bull washi bulwark are trying to call them out. olivia, i noticed watching the morning shows today, some of the networks are bleeping the president because he said bullshit. frankly, if it the president is going to talk that way, we have to air it. what do you think? >> i agree with that. but i have to say, the president is also the grifter-in-chief. a lot of things we see at cpac, donald trump really perfected. he had trump steaks and trump vodka, trump ties, trump

cologne, the trump board game. he has been selling useless products associated with his brand for years and years. and profiting wildly from it. and now we see it, you know, taking on a new -- even seedier form as he's in office and profiting from his hotel in washington, d.c. and things like that. so i think that just like he sets the tone for what the republican party is now more broadly, he also kind of okays this behavior by having done it so often and for so long himself. but i agree. i think that when the president curses, i think it's really important for us not to bleep it, not to use stars or other symbols when we write about it in print. i think it's important that we don't treat viewers or readers like children. and that we let them see and hear the president for who he really is. >> it's definitely complicated, though. i can see both sides. but it's a problem that newsrooms shouldn't have to have. because the president should act

presidential and we shouldn't have to worry about whether children can watch our broadcasts. oliver, we also have the president calling out some of his favorite television stars, radio stars. he rewards these boosters, right? he rewards them with shoutouts. and it kind of keeps this virtuous cycle going for him. >> of course. and this was really a celebration of trump. when i was at cpac, there wasn't really room for dissent. someone talked about the raising of the national debt and how it's exploded under trump. and they were booed. you know, these are not people who want to hear anything that crosses trump. and so, of course, he's going to reward the people who promote him. >> yeah. and there's an interesting thing going on. matt schlap talking about the president's lying. he was in denial, saying, no, no. the president is not a liar. take a look at what happened. >> don't call him a liar. >> he's a liar. >> you're specifically telling me -- >> he's a liar. you know it.

there weren't people dancing on the buildings after 9/11. he lies all of the time and you know it! and this stuff with otto warmbier. >> i don't know it. >> i don't know it. he says. i just wonder, bill crystal, your reaction to this. because two-plus years into the trump presidency, and if approximawe all can't agree he makes stuff up, how are we able to have conversations? >> matt does know it. he's not a foolish person. he doesn't want to say it. and in some way, he's now rationalizing it, and this is true of so many conservatives and republicans, unfortunately. that they're getting good policies or good results, despite the lying. and so what strikes me is the decay in the defenses of trump. we're now in sort of late-stage trumpism. and we no longer hear people saying, look, his character is not great and he's been a grifter and exaggerates and lies. but at the end of day, it was a choice between him and hillary and i like the judges, i like the tax cuts, whatever. i don't agree with that defense, but i think that's not an irrational defense in a democracy you don't get a choice

of often of perfect candidates. now they can't say that any more. it's a psychological thing and now they're denying the obvious truth as matt did. >> yeah. so olivia, last word to you. you wrote about the president's speech. under it's a form of self care. you know, hugging the flag, those sorts of moments. his fans do eat it up. but is it newsworthy any more? >> well, i think any time the president goes on a kind of crazy two-hour ranting monologue, we ought to cover it, pick out the newsworthy bits from it. but i don't think that it's something we should air, you know, in total as it happens live without anyone coming into fact-check or, you know, assess what the president is saying. i think that era of trump coverage is kind of over, that earli early era where we aired the rallies in total and just let him talk and talk and talk with no interjection. i think that's over. >> editing always helps.

with every story. thank you very much to our panel. if all of this talk about the trump years has you yearning for the bush years, cnn has just the new series for you. it's called "the bush years" premiering at 9:00 p.m. eastern time here on cnn. next, maggi haberman is back and trump's tribute of the press. why were four reporters banned from a photo op? the answer when we come back.

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you can barely feel. want more from your entejust say teach me more. into your xfinice remote to discover all sorts of tips and tricks in x1. can i find my wifi password? just ask. [ ding ] show me my wifi password. hey now! [ ding ] you can even troubleshoot, learn new voice commands and much more. clean my daughter's room. [ ding ] oh, it won't do that. welp, someone should. just say "teach me more" into your voice remote and see how you can have an even better x1 experience. simple. easy. awesome. now to the fallout from hanoi and new concerns about how the press corps was treated. this was one of the first events there at the summit.

president trump with kim jong-un. there were some questions shouted from the american press. take a listen. >> mr. president -- >> any thoughts on michael cohen and his testimony? >> thank you. >> notice kim smiling there, kind of enjoying the experience. the president, of course, ignored the question, and then, a few hours later, actually within an hour, this happened. the white house barring four reporters from the next event, the next photo op, which was a dinner between trump and kim. let's talk about it. why it happened. what it means. with cnn chief white house correspondent, jim acosta, who has just returned from hanoi and maggi haberman of the "new york times" also back with us. >> jim, tell us about what happened and why this stood out. >> reporter: well, i think it stood out in part because -- i mean, the press treatment was already off to a bad start before that moment happened that you just played there. i mean, keep in mind, the white house press corps, a big part of the white house press corps, staying in the same hotel with

kim jong-un and when the north koreans caught wind of that, we were booted out of the hotel. the entire press filing center with all of the journalists and cameramen and so on were booted out of the hotel. and flash forward to this pool spray where you heard jonathan lapierre from the ap asked that question and the president didn't like it. what we were told after that ended, because of sensitivities, sarah sanders said, with the north korean dictator, they were only going to law photographers into the next pool spray. when, in fact, she was clearly and the white house was clearly retaliating against the white house and those individual reporters shouting questions during that pool spray you just played. and then what happened and the resulting pool spray, some of the print pool photographers, thank goodness, the still photographers, they went ahead and rebelled and said, listen, if you don't let in some sort of editorial presence, we're not going in there. >> so a show of solidarity. >> yes, thank goodness or else we wouldn't have gotten into the next pool spray. but michael cohen wasn't asked in the next pool spray so they kind of got what they wanted out

of this, which is unfortunate. >> maggi, is it too much to ask when an american president is meeting with a dictator that the american white house stands up for the press and advocates for press freedom. is that too much to ask? >> no. we have time and again seen that this white house conflates the individual with the office and they -- they don't recognize sort of the necessity of promoting long-standing u.s. values. this is a constitutionally protected press corps in the united states and we have seen democratic and republican presidents stand up for those values, george bush among them, overseas. this president and his white house have chosen not to do that. it's also -- look, i don't know what happened. i don't know if it was retaliation. i don't know if it was preemptive on the part of the white house press office to try to keep press out so that the president wouldn't look like he was on equal footing with kim. a u.s. president is not supposed to be on equal footing with a dictator, number one. and number two, this is where the white house aides to donald trump repeatedly do not serve him well.

there needs to be somebody there who can say to him, this is a bad idea, because this is how this is going to play out. and time and again, that never happens. >> right. and afterwards, the president did hold a press conference at this kind of premature end to the summit so there was access later. >> it's ged. but the whole point of a free press is you don't control it this way. you are able to ask a question. i understand it was an uncomfortable question for president trump and some of his supporters said to me this is threatening to him at a moment when he's trying to secure some kind of a deal in north korea. but the expectations for what was going to come out of the summit had been so downgraded by the time they even got there that i don't know what this was threatening. >> yeah. jim, everyone remembers, you were banned briefly from the white house back in november. cnn went to court to get you back and your credential restored. the president has called on you since then. so i was curious what that relationship has been like? what's happened since november? >> you know, it has been tense. obviously. you know, things still flare up from time to time. there was that press conference in the rose garden where i asked

the president about his so-called national emergency to justify using funds to build the wall on the border with mexico. and he, you know, constantly interrupted and came after us and called us fake news and accused us of having an agenda. but we go boack to work and do what we have to do. we're still going to do our jobs. but getting back to what you were just saying a few moments ago about having that news conference in hanoi, keep in mind, the president during that news conference was calling on instead of members of the white house press corps, spent half of the news conference randomly calling on individual reporters who he didn't even know. including five or six members of chinese-state media, russia-state media and so on. and so the whole thing -- i think from being kicked out of the press hotel and press filing center to the pool spray episode to the press conference, i think this was a big debacle for this white house press shop from start to finish. and getting back to what maggi was talking about a few moments ago in terms of these sensitivities, it sounds like

the sensitivities were more with the president than kim jong-un. and i think sometimes here at the white house, they get confused over who the supreme leader is. and i do think maggi is right in that they do him a disservice. if the president had just asked or been asked some questions about michael cohen and gotten that out of the way, i think a lot of this would have been short-circuited before that news conference even started. but because they dig in their heels and try to rebel against what they obviously know something we're going to ask, i think they create more negative press attention than they probably would rather see. >> and lest we forget, there is no more daily briefings. don't want to let that go without remembering that used to be common for you and others to be in the press briefing on a daily basis. >> that's right. we used to have those all of the time. on the foreign trips you would have a press briefing with the secretary of state. >> with sarah sanders, there were reports she would be leaving the white house after the midterm. she is still there.

is there helpful communication on a daily basis with the white house press shop? >> i don't think there is. and, you know, you can ask questions from time to time, and you'll get an answer. but for the most part, you know, they're playing favorites over here. instead of the daily briefing, brian, what our viewers need to understand is that almost on a daily basis, somebody from the white house press shop, high-level official like sarah sanders or kellyanne conway, is doing an exclusive interview with fox news. and instead what we're doing in the white house press corps is assembling in the driveway of the white house in the hopes of catching them before they go inside the west wing so we can ask a few questions out in the freezing cold. now, of course, white house reporters, other reporters, we're used to standing out in the cold. but we're really being left out in the cold in terms of press access. and it's rather unbelievable. somebody was estimating the other day that kim jong-un had taken more questions in that pool spray. remember, some of those white house reporters got questions to kim jong-un during one of the pool sprays the other day. >> and that was great.

that was historic. >> yes. but that was probably more questions taken by kim jong-un than sarah sanders has taken from the white house press corps in some time. and so the juxtaposition, the comparison there, i don't think is -- serves them very well over here. >> as favorable. jim, maggi, thank you both. much appreciated. quick break here, and then why sean hannity might find himself being grilled by congress. and hbo being sued by michael jackson's estate. headlines rocking the media world, next. ♪ t-mobile will do the math for you. right now, when you join t-mobile, you get two lines of unlimited with two of the latest phones included for just one hundred bucks a month.

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take a look at what sean hannity told the president the other day. could he find himself having to testify before congress because of this comment? >> i can tell you personally, he said to me, at least a dozen times, that he made the decision on the payments, and he didn't tell you. >> cohen paid the hush money, cohen didn't tell you. so hannity is suggesting he has evidence for an ongoing investigation by the congress.

now members of the house -- david cicilline, is tweeting out saying, hey, hannity is volunteering himself as a witness. i look forward to his testimony. is that actually going to happen? could that happen? joining me now, former federal prosecutor, jennifer rogers, cnn legal analyst and shelby holloway, senior video reporter. the idea of a member of the media being called in to testify concerns me. is that concerning to you? >> no, not at all. in fact, it has nothing to do with that. what sean hannity did and i think he really stepped in it here, is to say i personally have information that contradicts what michael cohen said under oath. so by doing that, he says, i as an individual have relevant information for you, sdny, and you, congress -- >> i see. >> and hoping himself up to being called as a witness. it has nothing to do with his role as a journalist or employee at fox news. >> about his friendship with the president, friendship with cohen. and let's talk about another friend of the president's, roger stone. shelby, this week a judge rejected stone's argument, this anti cnn conspiracy theory that

somehow cnn was tipped off to the arrest of stone in florida. what does it mean that stone is facing these legal set backs. >> it's been a rough week for roger stone and lawyers. but the judge basically came out and said, there is no evidence to show that cnn was actually tipped off, and laid out an important time line that showed at 6:06 roger stone was arrested and at 6:11, the justice department posted online and went through the details and essentially said, this all looks pretty kosher to me and you guys didn't present any evidence. >> i hope the millions of people that have bought this crap, though, see what the judge said and read -- >> a lot of it is in the fine prohib print. it's two pages, you've got to look at the footnotes. it really does vindicate cnn and something a lot of news reporters were talking with, because the thursday before his arrest, there was unusual grand jury activity so we knew something was going to happen. >> turning to another legal

headline, this is the michael cohen michael jackson pedophilia film, with allegations from two men that jackson sexually abused them for years. it is a devastating film. and the michael jackson estate sued hbo, trying to block it from being aired. shelby, why do people file lawsuits that seem to only draw attention to something they don't want talked about? >> i actually just got a push alert with b this lawsuit and film. a film i wasn't very aware of is now very much on my radar. >> i feel like the jackson family is drawing more attention to this film. jennifer, what are the legal arguments here? >> well, they don't really have very good legal arguments. they make a contract argument that is never going to pass muster. they just want some kind of general tort things. i think it's about the money. they're trying to protect this financial boon that has been the michael jackson estate since he died, and the money may dry up. >> so the more they can do to stop the film i guess helps

financially. but as i said, the film will air tonight. tomorrow night on hbo. jennifer, shelby, thank you both for being here. quick break here. and then one of the top magazine editors of this era. find out where adam moss sees the industry heading, and why he's stepping down. that's right after this. i wanna keep doing what i love, that's the retirement plan. with my annuity, i know there is a guarantee. it's for my family, its for my self, its for my future. annuities can provide protected income for life. learn more at retire your risk dot org. stimulant laxatives forcefully stimulate i switched to miralax for my constipation. the nerves in your colon. miralax works with the water in your body to unblock your system naturally. and it doesn't cause bloating, cramping, gas, or sudden urgency. miralax. look for the pink cap.

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new york magazine editor-in-chief adam moss was just elected into the hall of fame. and at the end of the month, he's stepping down after 15 tremendous years leading the print magazine and launching digital publications like the intelligencer and vulture. so we spoke recently in his office about the future of the industry, but first, why he's decided to leave now. >> i don't know how anyone else does it. but in my case, it was really that i was not -- i no longer woke up every morning crazy to do this job. and, you know, as i've said, i

think you have to be a little crazy to do this job. so i didn't have that any more. i also kind of felt that it was 15 years. good for the organization to get new blood. or get a rejuvenation. >> i feel like we're going through you're far from the only editor. >> the business that we're in right now is unrecognizable from the business or the journalism -- even the journalism we practiced when i came here 15 years ago, we had a magazine and that was enough. it was fantastic. over the years things changed. business model changed, story telling tools changed. suddenly there were possibilities in digital media that were very exciting and

different. and i loved. suddenly you had video. suddenly you had social media of all kinds, some which would promote your material and others were platforms to tell stories, too. we started with one magazine and i'm leaving with six. that's a lot of change over a relatively short time. >> is your glass half full or half empty about magazines? >> i think magazines are changing. i think that people need to adapt. and i don't think that print is going away, but i think that print will be for smaller audiences and for people who really like the tangible print experience. it will probably cost more and people will pay for it because it won't be as subsidized by advertising as it had been traditionally. >> i find it interesting that you who so many editors look up to that you are not as attached

to print as maybe people would think. >> don't get me wrong, i love print and i will be a print reader forever and i love working in print. you can't look back. you really just have to like see what is the opportunity. there is so much good. there really is so much good in if you're invested in doing the kind of work that you do, you can reach more people now than you ever could before. you can find people. there is no distribution walls really at all. you can just reach anyone anywhere on the globe. you can tell stories with words, with pictures, with animated pictures, with sound. there will be all sorts of new things that will happen over the next 10, 12, 30 years. i think you have to embrace those opportunities because for one thing, it's fun.

the other is if your main job is to have an impact on the world, you have much more opportunity to do that now than you ever did before. >> and what advice are you offering to your successor? >> make this your own. forget about me. >> forget about me? >> yes. basically, i would say that. i would say that it would be a big mistake to try to be too rev renchal toward the past. i think media is all about what is next, what is new, what is next. >> so what is new? what is next for adam moss? he says he is not quite sure yet. you can hear our entire interview in the podcast. truly the end of a tv era.

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say it and see it with the x1voice remote. from netflix, prime video,youtube and even movie tickets. just say get "dragon tickets". welcome back. disney, comcast, at&t, cbs, all of these big media companies are making changes, trying to reorient themselves in the streaming world that has been pioneered by netflix. disney's deal to buy most of fox is about to be official. remember the government's bid to stop at&t? it officially failed and now some big moves are happening. in a true end of an era moment, the ceo of hbo is stepping aside. so is the president of turner. both men are acclaimed executives and their exits are a

big deal internally. of course, these source of changes are pretty common in a new owner takes over, but there is lots of curiosity about what comes next. the former chairman of nbc will be coming on and jeff zuker is adding oversight of turner sports. those announcements are expected in the week ahead. some of these changes are about freeing up more money to make more content, more shows to make the business more competitive. if you think about it at&t's big challenge is the same as disney's. the challenge is keeping up with changing consumer habits. how are you watching tv? what do you want from streaming services? the companies that are figuring that out are the ones that will win the streaming wars. that's all for this televised edition of reliable sources.

we are streaming on cnn.com. let me know your thoughts and what you would like to see next week. send me your feetback on twitter and facebook. thanks for tuning in. we'll see you back here this time next week. no deal. president trump fails to come to an agreement with kim jong-un. >> sometimes you have to walk. >> and faces backlash for side with kim over the death of an american. >> i'm in such a horrible position. >> is this the art of the deal? national security adviser john bolton responds, next. plus, taking a stand. the president's former fixer flips. >> he's a racist, con man, cheat. >> and president trump lashes out at the russia probe. >> they're trying to take you out with bullshit, okay? >> senator mark warner weighs in next. and he's running again.