he's recovering and the new dates are coming. more news straight ahead. >> "smerconish" is will you next. we'll be right back here in these seats in one hour. we'll see you then as well. i'm michael smerconish in philadelphia. he hugged me, too. october 28th, 2016. i'd flown to st. louis to interview joe biden on the campaign trail in the waning day, of the trump/clinton race. several things were memorable. the then vp had just made news saying if he and trump were in high school, he'd take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him. and the fbi had just announced new clinton server evidence found while investigating anthony weiner for sexi inin ii sexting a 15-year-old girl. biden made news when he said this. >> oh, god, anthony weiner.

i should not comment on anthony weiner. i'm not a big fan. >> something else that stands out. when we first saw one another, before the cameras rolled, we embraced. i don't know which of us initiated, probably him, because i'm not usually the huggy type. even so, it seemed natural, despite the fact that i'm not particularly close to joe biden. our paths have crossed several times over the years even though he's from delaware, and i'm from pennsylvania, i always thought of him as a philly guy. it doesn't mean i haven't criticized him when i thought it appropriate. i know what some of you are thinking, yeah, but you're a man. and that's true, women thinking he's was too close for comfort. if they think it, then he was. i wish to suggest this is how he is with men and women. with biden there's nothing

hidden nor pure yent abount abo. in all of that time, there's not a whiff of personal scandal about him. joe biden's deficiencies don't include the lack of moral compass. take a look at this picture. it's not staged. my radio producer t.c. took it in the middle of a conversation. close talking, knee to knee, like a barroom dialogue. that's the way he is. when the interview ended, i returned my producer's favor. that's her with him. note the same closeness. look, there are reasons not to support joe biden for president. but his tactile nature isn't one of them. as always, i want to know what you think, go to my website, it's smerconish.com. answer my question, is anything that has recently emerged about

joe biden disqualifying for a presidential run? joining me now is frank bruni who wrote this piece, mayor pete is plenty gay. ands better not eat has changed your view? >> the allegations that lucy flores and others levied i think for the reasons that you stated so eloquently in your intro there. one thing that has given me pause that has always given me pause is joe biden's appearance before union workers on friday. i'm not sure what he thought was gained about making jokes about the allegations against him. it's one thing to say, i'm not going to apologize for something that has no ill intent. i'm not going to apologize for the kind of behavior that for many decades no one questioned. it still doesn't mean he should

make light of it. it made me wonder how this is going to play out if he's going to act somewhat resentful that he went through it. the media has put him through a feeding frenzy that i think we do a disservice to ourselves and we do a disservice to the nominating process. but it's still not a good idea for joe biden to make light of this. >> i'm so glad you brought that. you because there's something about that moment that occurred to me. let's roll the tampe, then we'l talk more. ♪ >> i just want you to know i had permission to hug ronny. i don't know, man. >> frank, those union workers roared in approval. and, to me, i wondered if that was a reflection of them thinking, saying, hey, enough already, with the democratic apology tour. >> yes, i think it was. and it also needs to be said that audience, i think, was mostly white, mostly male and

that factors in. but, yes, i wrote this, i got a lot of reaction, let's vet candidates but not cannibalize them. let's not lose look of human messiness which everyone has. i think in that applause you heard people saying all of that. it still doesn't mean it's a great idea strategically or in terms of sensitivity for joe bide ton say what he said. there are women out there who are put off by his behavior who felt it was inappropriate and demeaning. we need to be respectful of their feelings, and there's a way to do that without going on an apology tour and on the flip side without making light of what they said about it. >> here's part of what you said in your recent column, how do democrats properly vet their candidate without canal balancizing them. and how to they insist on

sensitive and inclusive leaders while making allowances for past mistakes, present quirks, human messiness and the differences in the conversation and the culture now versus 10 or 20 or 40 years ago? and you were very pete buttigieg focused which is a piece whether he was gay enough, or kamala harris black enough? does it end, right? >> well, it doesn't end. on the other side of the aisle, you have a president who gives slack for nothing. but if the democrats meantime are losing all sight of a line between a job interview and inquisition, it's not going to play out with the issue at hand which is making sure donald trump is a one-term president. right now, democrats are wrestling with this. on the far left, you have people

staging complaints that are outside the realm of reality. some of what's going on, michael, that isn't talking about, but a lot of this which people are asking questions about pete buttigieg or kamala harris or bernie sanders, often it's being pushed by what is a crowded and incredibly intense primary in the making. >> circling back to where we wee began, relative to joe biden, some of the women coming forward are aligned with presidential candidates not named biden already. >> that's correct. lucy flores was a sanders supporter in the past. she was at a bet to rally. but these are data pieces or pieces of information you have to integrate into your analysis of what's going on. >> look, i said at the outset, if they perceived him as being too close, then he was.

>> yes. >> and he needs to learn from that. i, too, do not believe it could be a disqualifier. frank bruni, thanks so much for coming back. >> thank you. joining me now to discuss, margaret carlson, columnist for the daily beast who wrote this piece, don't give joe biden the al franken treatment democrats. and emily writing joe bide n created the culture he is a target of. >> joe biden was the point man effort of the obama administration to send sexual assault on campus, a very worthy goal. and as he repeatedly said, change the culture between men and women on campus and beyond. well, it succeeded, and now he's being bitten by his own success. because all of the things that you and frank bruni were just

saying about not being hyper sensitive, about understanding someone is not meaning to harm, go out the window on campus. there are young men who have had their education ended for unwanted kisses, for the kind of behavior joe biden is engaged in. and i wish joe biden, in addition to examining how he touches women would look at what's happened on campus and how he has helped create this world that is too hypersensitive. >> margaret carlson, i feel like i should say margaret carlson, because, man, did i love that show. >> thank you. >> you say we're all bidens now, right? we all greet people in a very touchy, feely way, and you explore where that came from in your recent writing? >> i agree with your opening. honk if you haven't been hugged by joe biden. it's not press datory, it's not

treacherous. there's no idea that it's going to be sexual in any way. it's not a me too movement. but it comes from the me too movement, and joe biden is going to have to adjust to that. but you have to multiply by ten how we all behave in our lives. a stranger hugged me at the end of an evening. you got to expect that politics is a contact sport. and emily makes a good point in her writing on campus, sexual assault hearings has been brilliant. and the only thing that i would credit, the department of education under betsy devos with is taking a look at those standards and how to get a fairer hearing. not that they're reached that moment of perfection, nonetheless, michael, all movements, the pendulum swings too far and you have to pull it back and find a good space and certainly looking at it is a

good idea. and joe biden made a rookie mistake yesterday. you can't play to the room. you have to play to the country. that was a friendly audience, but it was going to be seen by everyone. and to make light of this is not we're taking it too seriously. like there are people who would like to drum him out of presidential race, without one person casting a vote in the primaries. but everybody saw that. and they saw him making something too light, of something that some people take seriously. >> i want to talk about the political significance of this through the eyes of the president, a piece of video from donald trump. roll it. >> i was going to call him, i don't know him well. i was going to say welcome to the world, joe. you having a good time, joe? i said, general come here, give me a kiss. i felt like joe biden. >> i say you can do this.

>> this is the meme that the president retweeted as well. >> emily yoffe, has this issue been neutralized, meaning all those who have alleged grow prypry improprieties on the part of the president, if in fact it's joe biden? >> no, i don't think so. president as you said comes out swinging saying these women are liars. joe biden isn't doing that and can't do that. but as i said, it's hard to put away an issue that he helped create. he helped create on campus and beyond this idea that it doesn't matter what someone's intent is in touching you or hugging you, it matters what your subjective reaction is. and now, we're hearing from streams of young women, he has comforted, hugged saying, you know, that hug went on too long. that hand hold went on too long.

and some of it seems obviously trivial. even silly. but young women on campus were empowered to go report any behavior that made them uncomfortable. margaret points out that one of the few things we can get behind are the efforts to make campus procedures fairer. but joe biden has vehemently opposed this. he has never acknowledged that the due process rights of young men on campus have sometimes been completely ignored. even as he's saying, my intent is good. so, i don't have to apologize. >> margaret, a quick final thought from you as to how this shapes up in the fall, if it's the two of them left standing. >> well, trump just showed a complete lack of self awareness or conscious by taking on joe biden when he is far more guilty of offenses against women. and never acknowledges, never

comes close to an explanation, or asking for any type of forgiveness. if it's the two of them, it's going to be two very old white men. kind of eliminates that thing that time has passed joe biden by because certainly they're both in their 70s. and they're both out of touch. but only trump has the "access hollywood" tape and 20 women who have made serious me too complaints. >> emily, margaret, thanks so much. that was excellent. >> thanks, michael. >> thank you. what are your thoughts? tweet me @smerconish. >> what do we have, democrats have become cannibals. devouring their own. finding fault. you won't find a perfect candidate to beat trump not do you need one. christopher that was in the column that he wrote and i was

referring to. i guess the issue is who among us could undergo that level of scrutiny and still be standing after the primary and caucus process. remember, i want to know what you think, go to my website smerconish.com. answer my question, is anything that recently emerged about joe biden disqualifying for a presidential run? up ahead, a new course at the university of kansas is being given on angry white male studies and causing controversy. is there a problem here ? and it's show time for the final four. but senator chris murphy is lobbying the madness saying it's time congress gets involve. the senator and former d-1 player who disagrees will join us after the break. cafes, bars and bistros even pet care services. and there's never been an easier way to get great advice.

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called "madness incorporated, how everyone is getting rich off the college sports except the players." murphy presents the contradiction of what he calls the college sports context. it's one of the most viewed events in the world. 100 million viewers. 97 corporate sponsors. it earned $1 billion a year in media revenue. as the report points out that's more than any of the playoffs including the super bowl. senator chris murphy of connecticut joins me now. senator, we have something in common, that is, in high school, we were both the guy who ran the pool. mine was for amusement purposes only? >> so was mine. no money involved in high school poll. scouts honor. >> why is a free education not enough? >> because, a free education represents 12% of the money that, for instance, power five

schools are taking in revenues for college sports. this is now a $14 billion industry. and that's just the money that's coming to the universities. you add on top of that, billions more being made by the shoe companies the apparel companies, the tv networks. and to tell students they should just be happy with 12% of the pie when they are responsible for all of the eyeballs that are watching the ncaa tournament and the college football playoffs to me is a civil rights issue. and they deserve to have more of the return that comes from their labor. so, the ncaa needs to understand, the fundamental inequity of making all sorts of adults off the labors of these kids who are told that the scholarship is enough. especially when, frankly, many of these kids are not getting the academic experience that i got in college or someone with an academic scholarship gets. they are being commanded to spend a lion's share of their

time getting ready and organizing their likes if for and around college sports. they deserve to get more than they're getting. >> a civil rights issue for racial reasons, for labor reasons or both? >> both. i think when you have these kids acting as especially employees because of the amount of revenue they're generating for all sorts of adults around them, you have an employment issue. but you can't hide from the fact that the majority of the athletes that are playing the big time college sports and football are african-american. and almost none of the adults who are making money off of them, the coaches, 9 ads, the ceos of the big companies are african-american. when you have a whole bunch of adults who are white making labor off the free labor of a whole bunch of young people who are largely african-american, that has to be part of why we consider this as eye civil rights issue. >> i know from reading the report "madness incorporated" that the zion williamson episode

was a break point for you. explain why. >> so, zion's shoe comes undone. and the next day the market value of nike tanks by $1 billion. the idea that an amateur athlete to have that much impact on a private company speaks to me as to how fundamentally broken the system is. now, it turns out as if williamson had an insurance plan so maybe he would have gotten some compensation had he been so permanently injured to not continue to play basketball but he would have never seen a paycheck based upon his athletic endeavors. and yet, everybody around him, duke, the ncaa, the shoe companies that outfit him, all made money, off of his labors. and had he gotten injured, he would have never seen a paycheck as a professional athlete. that seems to be the epitome of what's wrong with this arrangement. >> my recollection is the same of yours that there was an $8

million insurance policy in that case. how would it work? i don't know if you've thought this through entirely, but would there be a pool in which everyone would share? would zion williamson be able to benefit even more so than his teammates because he's the one with marquee value? >> i don't think the burden is on me to figure out that system. i want the ncaa to at least try to put some options on the table, as to how you would create the lines as to who gets paid and how much and who doesn't get paid. the fact of the matter is the existing system is super convoluted that allows for coaches to make millions of dollars that tells the students who they can and can't work for during the summer. so, the new system would certainly be confusing as well. but it wouldn't be as unjust as the existing system is. there's a proposal out there to let students make money off the sale of their likenesses, whether it be in video games or the sale of their jerseys. that certainly makes sense to me but that, to me, was just the

start. >> i know that basketball is taken very seriously in your state, for both men and for women. yet, i'm reminded of my friend senator arlen specter as an eagles fan when he took up the issue of the patriots cheating. and some said, don't you have better things to do. i'm sure you'll hear some of those critics. what do you say to them? >> you know, i can walk and chew gum at the same time. i spent far more of my time working on matters of war and peace and trying to fix our broken health care system. but i do think this is a civil rights issue. i do think it's emblematic of big problems in society where a small group are taking advantage of the labor of individuals who don't not have as much political power. i do think this speaks to broader communities today. and as one of the youngest members of the united states

congress, someone who cares deeply for sports if i'm not willing to speak up for the athletes, by the way, we're talking about house to and thousands of athletes, i'm not sure who is. >> a final question of all of the data that's in "madness inc." what most jumped off the page for you. for me it was the sports facilities what's going on at clemson and other locales? >> this is going to be the new normal. clemson has a recording studio and other things for athletes. these schools are creating team fantasy camps to try to recruit athletes and uconn will have that soon as well. clemson as a big enough athletic program that they can probably pay for it with revenue from ticket sales become but uconn can't. and neither can most ncaa schools so you'll have taxpayers putting up money for these facilities which are going to become standard issue on college campuses and i think it's better for all of to us get ahead of it

now before the taxpayers are asked to foot the bill with something that really has nothing to do with either the athletic or academic mission of these schools. >> for amusement purposes only, do you have a victor monday night? >> i picked michigan state. if they win, i have a small chance of winning it. i'm all for the spartans. >> senator chris murphy, thank you very much. my next guest said that paying students is wrong. codey mcdavis played d1 basketball for the university of colorado from 2012 to 2015. he's joining me now from minneapolis where he's attending the final four. he's currently a student at the law school where he's the managing editor of law review. he wrote for "the new york times" "paying students to play would ruin college sports." cody, i'm far more impressed

that you're the managing editor of law review, so well done. >> thanks, michael. >> did you hear anything from -- sure. did senator murphy turn your head at all, or are you still of that mind-set that paying athletes would be a mistake? >> look, i respect what the senator is saying, as a former division 1 student athlete who has been through it who has studied the issue surrounding this matter for the majority of the past decade, i respectfully disagree. >> how come? make your case. >> so, i think what gets lost in this whole issue, we're talking men's basketball and football. moreover, we're talking about men's basketball and football at a select number of universities. the clemsons and alabama, and uconn, those are the universities. but he even mentioned that uconn can't afford it as clemson can. if uconn can't, then smaller

universities like colorado like myself and smaller other schools they can't either. so the question arises paying athletes, student athletes is a cost to any institution. and where are they going to get this money from? what happens is they end up cutting other sports to make this money arise. men's basketball and football athletes they're participating in a sport that's a revenue-generating sport. other sports know it provides revenue. you have to find a way to pay these athletes. and you pay basketball and football athletes and other student athletes are going to lose money as a result of it. in the long run, i see it as a big problem. >> senator points out $2.9 billion remain in scholarships.

do you speak for the athletes? >> i do. i've spoken to hundreds of athletes since my op-ed and well before them. i'm well connected across the country just being a former athlete and speaking on this issue. specifically, there's a student athlete at the university of idaho and mentioned after 2015, this issue with cost stipends that came out. these are cash type pends going to student athletes for their cost of living at a given university. what she saw on her soccer team that had just won back-to-back championships was that her president informed her that her team was very likely going to be cut, unless she spoke up about it, or unless their team advocated for them remaining part of the university because they chose to give cost attendance stipends to their men's student athletes. these pressures that are created by the universities that have a lot of finances again, the

auburns, the clemsons, the alabamas who can give these incentives to their athletes, it trickles down and it cause pressure on others, too. and that causes great losses for other student athletes in other sports that this country does not give great attention to who are giving their blood, sweat and tears to those same sports. and i think they deserve the respect and opportunity to get an education that they chose. and moreover to play a sport at the university they chose. we do not talk about them enough. >> i take it, actually, i'm goi doing transactional work. i'll be doing documents and contract drafting. >> mistake. get out of the back room and into the courthouse, my friend. okay. you've got the gift. thank you for being here. >> michael, thanks for having me. >> that's cody mcdavis. let's see what you're seaing on my twitter and facebook pages.

smerconish college colleges are already being paid with a discounted and free education. that athletes find no value in that payment does not negate it. you just heard from an athlete that says he doesn't want to be paid, doesn't think he should be paid in that regard. i don't want to imply that they're all looking for money because thus far, they don't appear to be. i'll say this, senator murphy has put in play an imbalance. $14 billion coming in and only $2.9 billion going into scholarships. meanwhile, they're all building disneylands for the students. i think something's got to change. if it's not paying the students directly, some reapportion knme is in order. up ahead, the rise of the angry white male of america and britain since the 1950s. why is it making people so

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manifestations of male anger. students can get a written exception for the requirement. and as you can imagine there's some heated views about the class. kansas congressman ron estes has slammed it saying, instead of a course to unite people and empower women, ku has decided to offer a class that divided the student populations and could pose a title ix violation by creating a hostile culture. and chris ovtopher forth writess a cultural historian, i am especially interested in how gender, sexuality and the body and senses are intertwined in a variety of culture locations. let's go to tweets.

smerconish, watching white males get so angry about a class focused on angry white males is an absolute hoot. grant, there's some truth in what you say. i want to remind you, to answer the survey question, it's smerconish.com. is anything that recently emerged about joe biden disqualifying for a presidential run? up next, neil armstrong and buzz aldrin became the first men to step foot on the moon. why was is so important for president kennedy. >> we chose to go to the moon and do the other thing not because they are easy, but because they are hard. it replenishes the moisture in your mouth. biotene definitely works. [heartbeat] when you rent from national... it's kind of like playing your own version of best ball. because here, you can choose any car in the aisle,

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inaugurated january 1961, america seemed like it might lose the space race to its cold war rival the soviet union. on april 12, 1961, the russian cosmonaut became known as the american shepherd on freedom vii. and may 25th, kennedy discovered this message to congress. >> i believe that this nation could commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth. >> why was this goal so important to the president and how was it realized? joining me now is douglas brinkley, one of america's most premier historians. with his new book. douglas, let's begin with the snippet from the president's speech. you point out that president kennedy in the limo back to the

white house, he thought he'd blown it? >> yeah, that's right. he just didn't get the kind of rousing applause he thought he would get from the washington lawmakers. he told ted sorenson, his chief speechwriter, god, i blew it. i thought this was a big deal and nobody responded. but the next day, the newspaper reports were good. all of the congressmen said, yeah, we'll fund jack kennedy's pledge to the moon. but over the summer of '61, nasa funded the money they needed to get the project up and running. >> you set out to lay out the president's motivation. what conclusion did you reach? >> kennedy hated losing, michael. he never lost an election. he won congress -- i mean, he won the senate in 1952. and the senate again in '58. never lost for congress. and in 1960, he had beat nixon. and on one of the nixon/kennedy

deba debates, kennedy said if you're elected i see a soviet flag on the moon. i want an american flag on the moon. lo and behold, kennedy wasn't going to lose. we had already lost to the russians with sputnik in 1967. kennedy saw it as a cold war imperative to be first in space. but to sell it as basically a science education. and one of the things i write about in the book all of these technology corridors were developed in places like huntsville, alabama, san antonio, houston, texas. jacksonville, florida, langley, virginia. on and on. nasa gave job us. and it helped kennedy show that he was holden and caring about the south in angst while jim crow was being dismantled. >> shepherd, armstrong, there

are a lot of firsts in douglas brinkley's new book. which is the one you kind of put on a pedestal? >> neil armstrong, i grew up in a little town in ohio called perry svill perrysville. i was collecting information of the astronauts as if they were baseball players and i was trading cards. i got to interview neil armstrong. i was asked to do the official interview. got to speak to sarmstroarmstro hours at nasa. he was just a stream come true for me. he was an engineer at heart, he had graduated from purdue university, and he believed we had to win the mission. and along with michael collins and buzz aldrin and president nixon can call apollo 11 a success. on the board in houston, they

put kennedy's 1961 pledge and under it task accomplished and fulfilled kennedy's dream even though he wasn't proud. >> you're very proud of your affiliation with rice. i want to ask you a rice-centric question. roll it. >> okay. >> we choose to go to the moon a in this decade and dot oth the thing. not because they're easy, but because they're hard. word s uttered where you teach students. in the book, you say you that tell your students when it was time for aldrin and armstrong to leave the moon, they left mind mementos. what did they leave? >> they left a little packet. and in it were kind of a peace medal but also memorial medals for soviet cosmonauts who had

died that our astronauts were competing against. also, parts of russia's program are left on the moon by american astronauts. it was a great moment of healing between the united states and soviet union. and all of the soviet papers were celebrating that america had actually won. they didn't mean it. today, the majority of russian school kids are taught that neil armstrong's walk was a hoax, that it was done in a studio. but nasa had the vision to try to claim that we went back to the moon for all of mankind, including russia. and we couldn't have gone to the moon without our anniversadvers because it was beating russia with all that it took to be first on the moon. >> the book is tremendous. i thought i knew the story. i didn't. thank you, douglas. >> thank you, so much, appreciate it. still to come, your best and worst tweets and facebook comments. and the final result of the survey question. have you voted ye

yet @smerconish.com. here it is, is anything that recently emerged about joe biden disqualifying for a presidential run?

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responded to the survey question. is anything that has recently emerged about joe biden disqualifying for a presidential run? survey says 11,258 votes cast and counting, 95% say no. 5% say yes. i think there's a 5% margin of error. some of what you thought during the course of the program, what do we have katherine?

while the left chases its tail the right is laughing all the way to election day. snatching defeat from the dogs of victory. what else do we have? based on your current president, is anything disqualifying? christopher, it's an excellent point, right? if you want to play the what aboutism. as a former d 12 athletes i heard thousands cheering my name, my school made millions but i couldn't afford pizza. a stipend helps. i think chris murphy taking nothing away from cody made a great place here. they gave up 2.9 in scholarship is not enough. join me for my american life in columns tour tomorrow, new york city, then atlanta and then nashville, tennessee. see you next week. what is your

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if i decide to run for office, i'll produce my tax returns, absolutely. >> how did president trump going from making the release of his taxes a campaign pledge at one point to a vow not fighting it all the way to the supreme court. >> i'm under audit. when you're under audit, you don't do but i'm under audit. good morning to you. so grateful to have your company as always. it is saturday, april 6th. welcome to the weekend. >> you are in the cnn "newsroom" and this morning president trump's legal team is ready to take the fight to keep his tax returns private all the way to the supreme court. a source tells cnn that the president's attorneys have been preparing for a fight over