my actions started a cycle of violence. >> he took the love and what my life could have been like. i want him to look me in the face and tell me why he killed my mother. >> there's no way that you could actually prepare for something like this. >> this is the last piece of that puzzle from a lifetime of what if. >> i spent half my life working with the criminal justice system, and i've seen lives devastated by violence.

we like to imagine that after the verdict, the story is over, the victim and the offender are never meant to meet again. but for some, the only way to move forward is to come face to face with the person who shattered their lives. so i'm here in los angeles to meet with mariah lucas. she's 25 years old. she's ngot three kids. she actually lost her own mother when she was just a toddler. when you lose a parent at a young age, you're really just forced to piece together the memories based on stories or photographs or even just your own imagination.

so she's planning on meeting with the man who actually took her mother's life, and i want to talk with her about what she hopes to get out of the whole conversation. you're a little girl, you lose your mom. it takes a lot to get to where you are, doesn't it? tell me more about that. >> i see the world as a very beautiful, colorful place, and i choose to be a positive person. >> where does that come from, given that you did not exactly have a colorful, happy, place upbringing? >> honestly, i think it comes from knowing how bad it can be. say it out loud, buddy, so i can hear. >> thank you for this day. we thank you, jesus. dear god. bless this food.

in the name of jesus christ, amen. >> great job, nolan. >> he says the cutest prayers every time. i try to raise my kids the way that i wanted to be raised. i try to treat my children the way that i wanted to be treated growing up. cuddling and holding hands and hugging them and kissing them and taking pictures. i got you. i struggle with am i doing this right? am i being a good mom? do my kids look at me and feel good about the life that they're living? okay. ready? oh. do you want pink fork or do you want silver? you want me to cut them or you got it? i have no memory of my mother at all. the only thing that i mknow asbt her is the pictures and the stories that my family has given me.

i was born in san bernardino, california, to my mom, charlene hineman, and my dad and an older brother. we were from, what i could tell, happy for a while and then my mom was killed when i was 15 months old. the only thing i knew about my mom's murder was that it was on my brother's fifth birthday, april 20th, 1993. my mom went to the atm to get out money for my brother for his birthday. my family was at chuck e. cheese and they were all waiting for my mom and she never showed up. the only information that i ever got about my mom's murder was that her throat had been slit and that she was shoved back into her car and her laundry was tossed on top of her. when my mother died, that led my dad down a really dark path.

when i was 7 years old, just before christmas, my father came home to his girlfriend in bed with another man, and it was like the gates of hell had opened up and they both continued to fight and hit each other. the police took both my father and the man that he was fighting and one had a screwdriver stuck in his moth and the other was barely conscious to make it out of the driveway. that was when my uncle came and pick eed up my brother and i. my father was in and out of prisons and jails. my main focus was surviving. >> so in your heart you have contention. >> going through my childhood, experiencing some of the things that i experienced, it does take a lot out of you. i contemplated suicide. i contemplated running away as a little girl. i thought that running away from my problems was going to fix it.

but honestly, it was finding somebody in this world that truly cared about me. finding that unconditional love and support that i found in the man i now call my husband. we got married march 29th, 2012, and life was great. i love you very much. >> love you, too. >> then i got really sick. i became septic after a wisdom teeth removal and i spent a week in the hospital on life support. having grown up without a mother and without a stable family, all i wanted to give my kids was a mother and a father to live with, to have experiences with, so i asked my husband, please pray over me, please make sure that i come out of this. after i got home from the

hospital and i started getting back into my normal daily routine, i knew that there was something else missing from my life. i had questions about my mom's murder. i needed to reach out to this man who killed my mother 23 years ago. >> you wrote him a letter. it's, like, five pages long. >> something like that, yeah. i wanted him to know who i was and to know the life that i've lived because of what he did. >> how would your brother feel about you reaching out to the person who took the life of your mother? >> i think he would be very mad at me. much of his childhood he grew up hating and resenting th ining h birthday. >> you're risking your own emotions, you're risking your relationship with your family. what is it that you want to know? >> why was taking her life necessary? and as a mom now, the last thing

that would go through my mind before i die would be i hope my kids know i love them and that has been in my mind since i was a little girl, you know, what was the last thing that my mother said? i am meeting the man who killed my mother. looking into the face that my mother saw last. education of a young mind. except maybe being first in line to the grand opening of the world's largest rollercoaster. the volkswagen atlas. more room means more fun. another wireless ad. great. so many of them are full of this complicated, tricky language about their network and offers and blah blah blah. look. sprint's going to do things differently. and let you decide for yourself. they're offering a new 100% total satisfaction guarantee. try it out and see the savings. if you don't love it, get your money back. see? simple.

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my name is jason clark. i did just over 23 years in prison for second-degree murder on a sentence of 15 to life. and i paroled on election day, 2016. ♪ >> so, big day that's going to happen soon. i just wanted to kind of talk with you about it. you kind of had a tough upbringing. >> right. >> but we were both "star wars" geeks. >> right, right. >> as kids. >> a little but, yeah. >> little bit. >> how do you go from being this kid looking at "star wars"like millions of others to become in prison? >> i was born in oklahoma, but

shortly after that my mother moved out to california. my understanding was she moved back to california to return home to her parents, which she wasn't allowed to return home with me and so she left me in a motel room when i was around 6 months old and that's when i went into the foster care system. it was different families. no stability. it was just bits and pieces of different families, and when i was 16, i went and lived on the streets. the drug use became really rampant. that's when things started to go downhill. i'm not going to say downward spiral. i would hitchhike everywhere, meet older gentlemen. the tradeoff with them was drugs and motel rooms and money for sex. if there was something to be stolen, i stole it.

i was doing anything to get high and anything i was doing i would have to cover it up and suppress it with being high and so it was just ongoing cycle. i had been at a guy's house and i was staying in his garage for a couple days tweaking is what we were doing. and i had left that night to go out and see what was going on. and i was at a point in my life where i was angry and pissed off a bt about a lot of things. hated myself. hated everybody around me. i was really a miserable person at that point. and i crossed the railroad tracks and on one of the side streets, charlene, she had parked her car. i knew charlene hineman. i actually went to junior high

with her brother for a little bit. i had seen her for and more because we were in the same neighborhood and running in similar circles. i was pissed, and i went over and banged on the window, belligerent, loud, aggressive. this little bit of anger sparked up and i just fed it. i had reached down and grabbed my knife and she collapsed almost instantly after that. the next thought was i have to get out of here and ran away off through the orange groves. i was really on the down-low for a couple months until i was finally arrested.

i was 21 when i got to prison and understood before i went in there that i needed to make a name for myself. because there's really two categories of people. the guys that are victimizing people and the guys that are being victimized. after a couple years in prison, there was a guy there, he -- we found out that he was in there for child molestation which in prison politics, that's a green light on him and so i volunteered and me and another young guy went into his cell and we beat him half to death. after that, i actually got rolled up and put in the hole. i finally came to a point in there, i'm literally in my cell licking my wounds, and it came to me that if i kept going the

way i was going, i was going to die in prison. >> so you sit in there, you're in a secured housing unit. you're isolated from everybody. you're in a prison inside a prison. but something positive starts to happen. >> i found a self-help book, "we're all doing time." here's a book that said how do we expect to solve our problems with the same thinking that caused our problems? i'm no tt the only one that's h a tough upbringing. people have been successful and phenomenal their whole lives. even with fwthat, i allowed mysf to use that as an excuse to isolate myself and become distant from everybody. when i started looking for help and started seeing the psychologist at the prison, that's when the biggest change came. she had me do a writing exercise, and what i ended up doing was i was writing my life story. once i started writing, i could not stop and that was the very beginning of it.

i was finally found suitable for parole an my fourth parole hearing, and i couldn't breathe, but it took me two or three hours before my chest was no longer tight and i could finally breathe a little bit and come back down to earth. and five weeks later on, i had got back to my room, my cell, from work one night and my cellie at the time had told me, hey, you got some mail, it's on your bunk, and climbed up on my bunk, picked up this letter and looked at it and i didn't recognize the name, the address, anything. so i go ahead and open it and i start reading it. about a paragraph into the letter i realize that this is from charlene's daughter. and my first thought was, here comes the hate mail. and the reality is that i was more prepared to deal with the

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we must act now. learn more. text titlex to 22422 jason wayne clark, your name has been in my mind for the last 20 or so years. i've thought about you nearly every week of my life, and i have many questions for you. i finally decided to reach out.

i'd had hopes you would be willing to meet me. my name is ma rea li lucas, the daughter of sharlen, heineman, the woman you killed. >> after the first paragraph i had to put it down. it was like a slug to the chest. i couldn't believe what i was holding in my hand. 23 years of no contact from everybody. >> "i realize contacting you may come as a surprise. i want to tell you a little about myself and the life i have lived." >> she told me about her life and the things she had been through. it's what we call the cycle of violence. i went through a cycle of silence and my actions started another cycle of violence as she had to live through and she was the one that broke that cycle of violence. >> i would like to ask that you allow me to come visit you. >> at the end of that letter, she had told me to forgive myself, and that hit me harder

than anything else. it was -- it was unreal. ♪ >> seems like such a sweetheart. a lot of times sweet people all of a sudden just flash. are you prepared for that? what if she just goes off? >> she's entitled to that 100%. absolutely. i'm at the point where i feel this needs to be done regardless of the outcome. >> what do you think she's going to get out of this? >> i knew that he had answers to my life that nobody else did. the selfish part ofmy wa me wan say i do want him to see me as a piece of my mother. i do want him to see this woman

that resembles, you know, the life that he'd taken away. this is the last piece of that puzzle that i need to really completely heal from a lifetime of what if. >> have a seat, man. >> thank you. >> so you are the person who is most responsible for getting these two folks together. >> right. so i had -- i've met with jason and mariah in person maybe three, four times and then other times over the phone. more time with jason than mariah in preparing him for what's going to be a very, very difficult time of answering questions. >> he's putting himself at some real risk. he's got to deal with both having a conversation with this person who he killed her mother,

and coming out of prison. >> typically, these victim/offender dialogues happen with the person still serving their time in prison. when i met jason, a lot of our conversation was just confirming that he was at a place that was right for him to participate in the victim/offender dialogue. >> you're going to be in a situation where those two people are sitting knee to knee. you'll be offcamera, present. do you have concerns about that kind of situation with two people, with these kind of potential feelings and emotions? >> there's always a concern, you know, we're human beings and we don't know how -- we can't predict how people are going to act. i think it's understandable for somebody who has a loved one murdered feel a desire to want to get revenge. i think that that's expected, but our responses as society

shouldn't be alienation. >> i feel good about you being a part of it, somebody who has such a long track record, but this does feel like very uncharted territory. >> california has done very few victim/offender dialogues. in the history of our justice system, fewer than 20. >> wow. >> so, yes, uncharted territory. >>? i'm scared, i'm nervous, you know, i am meeting someone who killed another person. i'm going to be feet away from a man who took another person's life. what if he hasn't changed? what if he is still a violent person? >> i most want to tell mariah the truth.

it's as simple as that. that's what's necessary. that's what's needed. >> when he looks at her, he may well see the face of the person he killed. we don't know how that's going to impact him. when she starts asking questions, she may get answers she likes or she may hear something she goes, my god, that's what happened to my mother? and all this sweetness and light might just go away. we have no idea what's going to happen. (client's voice) remember that degree you got in taxation? (danny) of course you don't because you didn't! your job isn't doing hard work... ...it's making them do hard work... ...and getting paid for it. (vo) snap and sort your expenses to save over $4,600 at tax time. quickbooks. backing you. we need a solution.ut their phones down. introducing... smartdogs. the first dogs trained to train humans.

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♪ um -- when i got your letter, did not recognize the name, the address, anything. by the first paragraph, it was -- it was like getting kicked in the chest. that letter i felt i didn't deserve.

i deserve whatever it is you have to say about me. >> i didn't have a mom to teach me right from wrong. i had a father who taught me what not to do in life. so the reason i'm doing this is because i have three children who look up to me, and a year ago, they almost lost me. my son, my oldest, was 5, and my youngest was 15 months, exactly how old my brother and i were when my mom was killed. i was given an opportunity to live the life that she didn't get to live. do you remember a lot about my mom? i was told that you were her brother's friend. >> we went to school together. we had fallen off years later,

but i remember your mom. we crossed paths a lot at different drughouses. similar circles and stuff like that. i had some meth on me. she said she knew where she could go make a quick flip. and so i gave her $40 worth of meth and she was supposed to go do this quick flip and i didn't see her again. >> i didn't know that. so my question to you is, what really happened? >> i came across sharlene late at night, and she was sleeping in her car. i banged on the door right there on the car window door, and i had woken her up and instigated

and escalated. as soon as she opened the door, i was like where the hell is my money? you stupid -- you know, and she went on the defensive and started arguing back. i just got more pissed off. over a petty small amount of money. and at that point in my life, i was a person who did not care about anybody else. i was only worried about me. i was only worried about tweaking my addiction and i was walking around pissed off at the world all the time. >> how -- how did she die? did she fight back? did she ask you to stop? did she ask for mercy? >> i told myself when this started that whatever you need

ed. this is what you need. ♪ i pulled out my knife and i stabbed her with -- with everything i had, with years of built-up anger and hatred and everything else. it was violent and brutal. she collapsed almost instantly. she struggled some. she suffered some. and i'm doing this because i

told myself that i would do this. she suffered some. she was -- she lost conscious after a moment. it wasn't a long, drawn-out thing. i can tell you that and can tell you that with complete honesty. i heard her last breath. that's the thing that's going to stick with me the longest. that will never go away, and that's when i realized the magnitude of what i had done. >> did she say anything? did she mention my brother or i? >> it was a short struggle, and it was "why, stop." it was a moment. >> from what i was told, you turned yourself in. >> no. >> they found you.

>> they found me. when i was arrested, i gave a full confession. >> okay. >> to everything. when i went to court, i pled guilty. i'd never denied it, but i did not turn myself in, no. >> how do you feel about what you did? moving in together, it's a big step. a test. a test that jeff... [ grunting ] failed miserably. [ upbeat music starts ] the spacious volkswagen tiguan. more room means more fun. another wireless ad. great. so many of them are full of this complicated, tricky language about their network and offers and blah blah blah. look. sprint's going to do things differently. and let you decide for yourself.

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to save 30% on all the medications we carry. so go directly to petmeds.com now. how do you feel about what you did? >> i am the only person responsible and the only person to blame for those events, and for a long time, i did not think like that. i blamed her. i blamed the d.a. i blamed the cops. for a long time. and it wasn't until i finally looked at myself and where i was at.

i owe -- i owe a debt that cannot be repaid, but i'm going to spend the rest of my life repaying that. that's my motivating factor. >> she's my motivating factor, too. she's here with us, and she will always be with you. you will always have to carry her with you. you know, we have a bond that not a lot of people can say that they have. you did something terrible a long time ago, but that's not who you are anymore, and i wouldn't be sitting across from you if i truly didn't feel that way, and i know that you are changing the direction that your life is going in. ♪

>> this is supposed to go the other way around. >> it's okay. pay me back by helping other people. make sure that another teenage kid does not end up where you ended up. ♪ >> if there's ever an extraordinary conversation ever had between two people, that was it. what mariah and jason were able to do in that meeting was really inspiring. their dialogue may have ended, but as it turns out, their story is not over. so i'm driving out to lancaster prison to meet with mariah and jason. haven't seen them for more than

a year. did not expect to be seeing them in a prison. that's for sure. >> hey. >> look at you. >> it's nice to see you. >> good to see you as well. you guys haven't seen each other for about a year. so how you feeling about seeing him now? >> my whole outlook on life changed after the dialogue with jason. as hard as it was to hear about the, you know, final moments of my mother's life, it was honestly kind of a relief. in my mind, jason was this person who attacked my mother at an atm machine and when he told me what happened, it made me see him in a different light, in a different perspective. i did have this really picture-perfect image of who she was and who she, you know, should have been, but, you know, jason told me that the reason

they had met was because she was getting drugs from him, but it didn't make me think any less of her. it just made me have a desire to change the way society deals with addictions. maybe we could have prevented all of this. >> i'm living in watts, a neighborhood in los angeles. south-central. i have my own room. a shared bathroom. i'm living literally paycheck to paycheck. on the verge of being homeless. you know, one bad month and it's awash. it's that adjustment back to society. i had set some goals for myself getting out and i had all these plans and what i was going to do and reality eventually sets in and you realize you could only do so much. it's been one thing after another, but that's what life is is that constant struggle, that constant moving forward and

taking care of everything that needs to be taken care of. i worked at the homeless outreach program in the re-entry department. one little episode that may slow you down here and struggle. >> yeah, it is. >> addiction is real, man. >> reach out to me you get a chance. for real. help them find employment which is a really huge stabilizing factor when people are coming out. >> you ready? >> people i'm working with are essentially where i was at a year and a half ago. what are you looking for right now, wayne? >> income. >> housing and income. >> it took me 4 1/2 months just to get my birth certificate, so having people assist you and get that stuff started is a big, huge step. >> so there it is, man. >> yeah. >> does it look familiar? >> not from the outside. >> not from the outside. >> only seen the outside of it one time, right?

>> yeah. i'm wondering if you've given any thought to how this is going to affect you walking back into prison. >> you know, palms are a little damp. slightly elevated heart rate. >> yeah. >> like you said, i'm coming here under different circumstances, not a scared -- scared kid walking into the prison this time. >> got your i.d.s. >> what? >> oh, my goodness. >> look at you. >> oh. i had to step up my game. >> how are you? >> i guess so. >> it's so nice to see you. >> man, it's good to see you. i talked about you guys so many times. i mean, that was such a powerful experience for me. >> you made me a promise. you promised me you would never go back. >> right, well -- >> broke your promise. >> i mean -- >> yeah. no. that was -- yeah, there was that and there was also my impact on other people's lives, too, so

along -- that's why i'm doing what i'm doing now. >> what's going to happen here today? what's going to happen here in this prison? >> so we're going to meet with some men who have been participating in a victim awareness program. >> everybody you're going to meet right now is a lifer. >> you know, i've been doing this for 30 years, and i don't think that this has ever happened where there was a victim/offender dialogue and both people have come back into a prison. >> well, i'm looking forward to meeting these guys. >> looking forward to meeting you, van. >> yeah, so that should be good. >> jason, how does it feel? i'm wondering what you're going through. >> a little surreal. >> i know it's still going to take me some time to fully adjust out of that prison mentality. when i left prison, it was like, don't look back. i didn't want to look back. >> turned your head. >> i just look forward the whole

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i have been incarcerated if for 19 years. >> have been incarcerated 27 years. >> i was convicted at the age of 17. >> i was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. i have been incarcerated since the able of 17. >> without the possibility of parole. >> i paroled about a year and a half ago on november 8th, election day. here i am back. >> today we are very fortunate because we have jason and mariah who have connected on a very deep level. inspite of the fact that society gives them messages that they should never cross paths. i know the guys have a lot of

questions about the actual victim-offender dialogue. >> the dialogue was the most difficult thing i have ever done in my life. i believe that it was. it was also one of the best things i have ever done. the best thing really when i look back on my life. it's not a lead of good. the best thing i have done and the most difficult thing i have ever been through. i thought i knew victims's awareness and victims's rights. i didn't know shut. it was not until this that i actually had an understanding that there is another side of the story that we can't even grasp or wrap our heads around. in here we don't have that connection with the people. we don't have that understanding. i went in with the attitude i was degree going to do this and

hopefully they get what she needed out of it anded t the si effect i got is i think just as much out of that, the most difficult part was that face-to-face honesty because you didn't cut me any slack. >> hearing from him over the phone, it probably wouldn't have done anything for me. i need to physically see the remorse and see him uncomfortable, telling me what he did. >> i came out completely changed. having this weigh on your heart for having live lifelike i did and doing the things i had done and laying it on the table and get it off my chest. that's where my hailing came from. i noticed when you were sharing,

some of you got teary eyed. why is that? when i see him, i see myself. he walked the same yards i walked. and he's free. not only is he free physically, he's free spiritually. in his heart. that's what you gave him. >> i know for me, that's what this is all about. that connection with people in a way that heals them, too. my greatest fear is facing my survivors. how do you talk to someone that you took their son? you can't replace it. >> when you actually have the blessing of having a survivor come to you, that's something that we all dream of.

>> what would you want to say? >> i would want to, to the best of my ability, explain how i have at least some understanding of impact, the negative impact that i have when i murdered my wife. it was one person, however, everywhere that she knew and was connected with, her friends and coworkers and family of course, my family. all of these people are affected. my daughter has never known her mom. i took all that away. it sounds cliché, but the only thing we have is to be able to say i'm sorry. that's all we have. >> you said it was cliché to say i'm sorry. but i want you to know something. this man is the only person who has victimized me who ever said i'm sorry. i can't look at you guys and promise you that if do you this

work that all of your victims and all of your survivors are going to say i forgive you. it's okay. you need to be able to recognize and acknowledge that because if you can't, you are never going to fully heal. >> the work that you're doing is work that should be happening at all levels of society. in reality it's not. i work in washington, d.c. and i see psychotic people with a lot more power than anybody in this room and no real accountability. don't under estimate the power of taking accountability, taking responsibility and healing. you have no idea where it goes.

>> when i was a kid, church meant putting on my good clothes and getting yelled@my grandma's church. these days like the great crist man for three weeks, the churches they are changing. >> good morning. >> morning. >> you raid to run through the bible?