biting. talk about a way to turn me off junior mints. anyway, she thinks real life is like survivor which is interesting because her show is like law and order when a suspect represents herself at trial. it's hard to imagine the president would actually boycott fox news though. surely he will be back on the phone with hannity sometime soon like one of those overnight, late night talk radio callers if anything calms an angry president trump it's being fed like a bird in primetime. >> i'm chris couomo. apologize for the voice in advance. welcome on a huge night for o r oversight and breaking on our watch, we know much more about why congress is so intent on

going deeper. the house intel committee just released testimony by michael cohen we haven't seen. he implicates the president's son for making false statements toen to congress and also said one of the lawyers knew his system was false. possible obstruction to testify tomorrow. don mcgahn is not going to happen now. he's going to follow president's orders and not testify. what is congress going to do about that? we're going to ask the man that issued the subpoena. the house judiciary chair is here tonight. new digs, same sense of duty. let's get after it. >> the house intelligence committee now knows things that

we didn't know that they knew when cohen testified to them. this happened in march. they kept it quite and now disclosed it. what do we know? the president's former personal lawyer implicates donald trump junior in making false statements to congress about negotiations for trump tower moscow. junior formally testified that he wasn't involved and knew very little about the deal. there's going to be a lot to dissect. let's bring in our team. the right group for tonight. thank you very much. if he hears something suggested or said. let's start with you in terms of what have you seen in the transcripts that popped some eyebrows? >> well, michael cohen says

quite clearly that he gave false testimony and that jay that is currently the president's lawyer knew about it and advised him to do it. his law license may be in jeopardy. it says congress needs to be asking more about what exactly went on with the trump tower deal and why they were so desperate to tell so many different stories in an effort to make it go away. >> here it is. donald trump jr. had more than a passing familiarity. >> yes. >> if the project got going it would be a fun place for us to

go. >> there he is. good. >> so what? >> that's the correct response, chris. nothing can be built on the exchange to implicate don jr.'s legal liability. did you have any involvement in the potential deal in moscow? i was aware of it. what does that mean in terms of holding him to account? >> i didn't dismiss it nor did trump jr. he though he was going to be indicted over this and he has avoided testifying about it since.

but mueller already saw it and decided to pass and if congress wants to go after trump jr. for this they're going to have to go through the justice department and likely they're going to get a stone wall saying been there and done that. move along. mueller decided not to. we're not revisiting. >> break the tie. is it something or nothing for don junior? >> he said something very important. this is information that bob mueller already had. he had tons more information. the witness already pled guilty to lying to congress.

it's potentially simply not true. michael cohen does not make a good witness. it doesn't sound like there are supporting documents and i think in the end not much is going to come of this. but he says i just missed the suggestion out of hand. even if there is an e-mail trail isn't that something that the doj or mueller would have already known? the parties had a joint defense agreement and everyone is

sharing information for one another up until the point you are a co-op roperator and flip start helping the government. he contends that he was perfectly aware after more than ten conversations on which the only people were on the phone that saying that the trump tower project stopped in january of 2016. so way back early before the first primary when it really went on until that summer. that is a very important fact. >> if he was aware. >> and quick point chris, mueller did not know this because he decided to send his report not to probe because it would pierce the attorney client privilege. this would have been news. we don't have that before.

>> he's not going to testify before congress. >> i'm not suggesting he should be but he's dismissing this out of hand. >> stick around. we now know two things. these guys making arguments about him having problems with his credibility is true. con gret congress believes him about things and they're pursuing avenues he told them about. some of which we still don't know and some we do. now we know why they want trump junior the way they do and now we know something else.

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we're learning cohen said that trump attorney told him pardons were under consideration for both him and others to shutdown the inquiries and shut the investigations down. and when asked if trump knew about those discussions, cohen said i believe so. let's bring in this great panel of guys doing this job on one level or another for a long time in assessing this information. what believes that the releasing of the transcripts makes a material difference? only one. i'll take it. just for that i reward you. now the idea of this pardon situati situation, we don't have any other way to corroborate that we know about it. what's the potential significance david? >> you ca commit a act in a way

that is illegal. a pardon that is offered or granted for impeachment is prohibited under our constitution but what i see happening here with this transcript is the dam has been breached and it's bit by bit more and more coming out. the man on the tv show is not the man in the white house. they believe michael cohen. they believed him about the finances which is why they're going after deutsche bank. they believed him about trump

junior which is why they're trying to get him back. that's important. >> maybe they believe him and maybe they don't. there's two other potential reasons why they're heading down these paths. one is its a fishing expedition. who knows what they're going to get. it's possible that they're looking for other information and it's not that they believe michael cohen necessarily. the second season is its a stalling effort. the only witness scheduled to testify before the committee today was somebody that the committee knew wasn't going to show up, don mcgahn so this business with michael cohen creates the appearance that the house is doing something without the reality of it.

>> that's a political calculation. i'll let nadler answer for himself when he is on the show and it's great timing to have him tonight. doesn't it stand to reason that this is a shock that the president or the white house or whomever it is calling the shots waited on him until the last second like this? isn't this something they should have given him on friday? >> i believe he knew all along he wouldn't be allowed to testify. i thought when he had executive privilege that was it. he's not going to testify. >> what can they do next? what are the options? >> they can hold him in

contempt. >> they got to go to court. they got to go to court but they have real arguments here. and the big point is he's now a private citizen so we don't have much doctrine either. on the other hand the president made the order and pulled the trigger and there's nothing left to do but go to court and unlike the other court opinion that came out today, this is a tough issue and will work it's way all the way up to the supreme court. >> there's two things to remember about mcgahn. one is assertion of immunity and the second one is executive privilege that if i'm forced to show up what can i testify to? they're two very separate issues.

they lose immunity and they prevail on executive privilege on a case by case, document by document basis. >> fair point. david. >> well, my argument was similar except they waved executive privilege. when they allowed him to testify for 30 hours to mueller that's a pretty clear waiver of executive privilege and we should all be concerned about a doctrine under which presidents can prevent people after they go back into private life from testifying. that should be very disturbing to us regardless of whether democrat or republicans in the white house for the welfare of our republic. >> fair point but you can be right. i got to go to break. we're doing it document by document. it's better than the people to be questioning him. >> we need to do more of this so we have a new response for the president's lawyer. he looms large in this transcript that was released.

if you think about it, it's not fair to be talking about what cohen is saying about him and not include what he says about those suggestions. i'll remind you of that when we come back and then we have the head of the house apolojudiciar tonight. this is a night to have him. a big night. let's get after it. ahhhh! ♪ we're here. ♪ ♪ you wouldn't accept from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one.

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>> let's bring back in our panel here. michael cohen says that he changed the time line to make it look better on trump tower moscow for the president and that he knew now assuming this testimony was in mueller's hands before it was in hours, what is that to you? >> over the course of that transcript, michael cohen gives various answers to that exact same question. one of the answers to mr. welch was when asked if he knew he says i believe if he did take it to a client which he stated he

did but then if he spoke -- there's so many qualifiers in that answer. >> in fairness to sekulow you need corroboration. he said i dismissed the suggestion out of hand. there will also be a statement coming out. next, how big a deal that the president pulls him back? >> it's something that we all expected. i think the president either said or hinted as much. but mcgahn is a key figure in the whole thing. much of it is based on information that he provided. >> how big of a deal is it when

he says to congress he wanted me to fire. he was trying to do things to stop this investigation. his counsel said i don't think he did anything to give him criminal exposure. >> that's a great question for your next guest. let's assume that everything in the mueller report is true and it's all accurate. now the reason people are interested in having him testify it brings the story to life. the motion is that perhaps that might actually seem pretty obvious that that's not where the speaker wants to go. i don't think that's where the chairman wants to go either.

>> he may not have a choice. you know that own perspective, the more the president fights the oversight, the more he is forcing them to show that they'll take him on just because of that point. everything else fades into that. >> you're right about that. >> yeah. i'm that rare breed of impeachment defense lawyer, republican impeachment defense lawyer and i'll tell you what when the speaker of the house and chairman of the judiciary committee take impeachment off the table and are working so hard to avoid impeachment it strengthens the executives hand. internally within the organization they flag money

transactions going back and forth in trump and kushner's accounts. is that that unusual? not too much. who was the one that decided not to send the activity reports of what they thought was suspicious to the government? the reporting said it was people from the private banking side here in new york that knew kushner and his relationship with deutsche. that wasn't supposed to be done. i want you take on this and then michael because he worked in this area. they have been signed over $600 million just for moving money for russians. so the bank issued a non-denial

denial. they got news reports all over the place saying they deny it. they didn't deny it. i'm not at all surprised they're worried about this. they're a licensed institution. and they are cooperating with a whole host of investigations. >> what are the questions that we need answered to understand the relevance of the situation? >> how is the information moved up the chain? the way these things work, you have a system that generates alerts that moves upstream for decisioning to the surveillance suspicious activity committee. we need to see all documentation on that and determine whether it was made properly in compliance basis. >> thank you for making

complicated things more accessible for the audience. i appreciate it so much. i didn't think it was going to happen here in the 11th hour. i thought they would have done this a few days ago. why antagonize congress this way. do you know who issued the subpoena? representative gerald nadler of new york. he doesn't look happy. he shouldn't be. what does he make of the move by the president. what does he make of the headlines that are falling on our head tonight? we have him next. but it's not just big either. it's the kind of big where you'll never have to ask, "should i scooch up?" it's big that looks at a sunroof and wonders why it can't just be most of the roof. it's big that's better because we built it that way. the spacious, 121 cubic feet of cargo space

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so the latest is that don mcgahn says on orders from the white house he's not going to show tomorrow when the house judiciary committee meets. the former counsel's perspective is key as to whether the president obstructed justice. the judiciary chair that issued the subpoena is jerry nadler. welcome back to primetime con gr congressman. i said why did they wait until the 11th hour and these experts are saying everybody knew he was going to do this. not true. you were given indications.

what is your reaction to it? their pattern is to tell the committee the night before. but this is part of the pattern of the president and rudy giuliani and the white house intimidating him and acting law leslie to prevenlt ht him from testi testifying about the obstruction of justice. so you're dealing with a lawless president willing to go to any lengths to prevent testimony that might implicate him. that does implicate him. >> the first thing we're going to have to do is hold mcgahn in contempt and then we'll have to pass a resolution in the house

enforcing against bar and mcgahn and seek to enforce the subpoenas in court through the contempt citations. that's the next step. >> the worry is if you go the legal route it takes forever. we just saw what happened with eric holder. that case just -- the former attorney general of the obama administration. that case just got settled a coup of weeks ago. went on for many years. are you worried about that? >> of course that's a concern but the fact is the president made the same arguments that he's making which is contemptuous of congress and the american people. they can't and examine fraud or abuse or obstruction of justice and we can't investigate that on behalf of the american people and that was just roundly rejected in the district of columbia federal court today. nonetheless he makes that

argument. now they will appeal that but it's going to go very quickly. >> how big a deal is it that his tax prep folks have to turnover information for you? >> it's a big deal depending on what we find in those taxes. >> how much more likely is it that you turn to an avenue of impeachment? >> well, it's making it more and more difficult to ignore all alternatives including impeachment. we'll have to consider that and all other alternatives. >> what do you think of the idea that he's goading you? >> he may be wrong from his point of view but we're going to have to do what we have to do to protect the american people and the rule of law.

he condition seek to be a dictator and to be above the law. that's what he is trying to do and if we want a democratic government we can't permit that. >> why not go the route of impeachment? what is your hesitation? >> there's a lot of considerations on that. we may do that. i'm not going to stay at the moment for the pros and cons. >> what do you think needs to happen to make that the only avenue you have left? >> hopefully it won't be the only avenue we have left. certainly we're going to pursue the subpoenas and other evidence in court. the president cannot take the position that congress cannot investigate anything and he is above the law. the only question is the

question of timing. >> how about mr. mueller? is he on the horizon? >> he is and hopefully he will testify. >> do you think you need him to leave the doj or does that not change the analysis? >> as long as he's a doj employee he is more subject to their discipline. i don't know why he's still there. >> the idea of what came out in deutsche bank, the idea that those s.a.r., specific activity reports were not reported, that's not unusual but the idea that it was done by people within private banking that knew mr. kushner as opposed to a more independent body.

what do you think about that? >> that's self-dealing but trump is self-dealing. no bank except deutsche bank would deal with him for many years. >> are you familiar with the testimony already? >> some what. >> the idea that he says donald trump jr. and i spoke 10 different times about trump moscow, that seems to suggest it wasn't peripheral but with that word, what does that mean? does it only advance -- >> it should. michael cohen has lied and lied to congress. that's why he is in jail. he lied on behalf of trump but

no jury is going to believe him so far everything he said since he decided to come clean and testify against trump has proven true but you need evidence. the real question there is if trump was, in fact, lying to the american people and saying he had no business dealings throughout the campaign when in fact trump junior and others were negotiating and reporting back to him he was lying to the american people and putin knew it which gave him leverage over him which is a dangerous thing to have leverage over a candidate or president of the united states. >> i understand there's an alchemy involved in this and a

lot of competing interests but i'm wondering more and more but maybe i was wrong in that it seems more likely these days that the only chance for my audience to hear from the people and see the people that matter and determine for themselves how they want to judge this president is if you go down the road of impeachment which would be more impressive to the courts. without the impeachment argument to the court and we'll see. >> all right. i'll take it at that. tonight was a very important night to have you. i know that you rushed over here to do the hit with us. i appreciate it congressman. thank you very much. >> be well. >> he is the chairman of the house judiciary committee and

he'll be driving a lot of what comes next. president trump is not so happy with his favorite television network, cnn. i'm just kidding. fox. but why does he have a problem? i want to talk to you about what it is that's bothering him so you can see how his head works. next. nooooo... nooooo... quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty picks up messes quicker and is 2x more absorbent. bounty, the quicker picker upper. yesss, i'm doing it all. the water. the exercise. the fiber. month after month, and i still have belly pain and recurring constipation. so i asked my doctor what else i could do, and i said yesss to linzess. linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation or chronic constipation. linzess is not a laxative, it works differently.

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it's another way we've got your back. the business platinum card from american express. don't do business without it. wow, why, what did fox do that was so terrible? they're giving his 2020 opponents air time. they're doing their job. d. lemon is here right now. i have to tell you -- >> i'm better looking than all the democrats. they broke up with me.

what's happening. >> high on the list of crazy talk but, you know, look. when you and i take exception, what that nighttime line-up does is often really irresponsible in my view. >> often. >> but they're doing their job by having on both sides. that's what they're supposed to do. he has to know that. he has to know that. how do you go bad on people that carried you like a newborn for months. >> because they carried you like a newborn for months and they have to wean him off. >> the teat. >> i'm glad you said it. >> that's not what you were going to say. >> i was like can i say that? they have to do it. they want him to be on. they want the opponents to be on. they had all the republican candidates on cnn. we couldn't say no republican candidates because that's not how we operate. we're a true news organization

even at night. i know people at fox or the trump folks don't like to believe that because that's their talking point. but here's the irony. they had pete on. >> spitting facts and truth and they didn't like that. >> listen to this. >> tucker carlson saying that immigrants make america dirty when you have laura ingraham comparing detention centers with children in cages to summer camps. summer camps then there is a reason why anybody has to follow twice and think before participating in this media ecosystem. a lot of people tune into this network that do it in good

faith. when he goes bad on you the sun goes away. >> it's a double edged sword. i'm not running for president but if i was i would consider whether i should do it or not because they said even worse things. >> he said paying women the same as men makes men depressed so you shouldn't do it. >> i'd be worried about providing a platform and money and people saying television adds to an organization that spreads hate and propaganda. do you go on since there's a big audience there? or from principle.

>> our job is to offer him the opportunity. they won't come on with me either. we make the invitation. i ask all the nominees all the time. i invite them all on all the time. >> they feel comfortable in certain places. >> why come here i don't fault them for that, by the way. >> i do. >> they're trying to distinguish themselves. they're worried about going the beto route where all the sudden the love's not there anymore and they've got to restart their campaigns. >> i fault them for it because hillary clinton is not in the white house because she did -- that's what she did. she picked and she chose. donald trump went on every single news organization. you called him, he figured out a way to come on your show. every candidate should do that. you should take advantage of the media and take advantage of every single platform to get your message out. like i said, i would weigh whether or not i would go on fox. at the end of the day maybe i would do it because there's an audience, i don't know. but i think that that's a mistake they're making, the same

mistake hillary clinton made. listen, speaking of opportunity, imagine this. imagine you're standing there at your graduation, your cap and gown and someone says i'm going to pay all all your debt. >> not just anybody either. >> a billionaire, robert f. smith. >> and for him to look at the other alumnus and say, alumni, i got 2019. this is my class. but we are enough for our community. we are enough. i'll tell you what, that is something you do not hear a lot in the african-american community. those are bold words. >> the president of morehouse college, those are the graduates he was speaking. the president is joining us in a few minutes. >> what a great guest. good for you. >> see you soon. so game's over, "game of thrones" fans, i know all the buzz going on about the finale. guess what? i don't care. but i do have takeaways. i learned things from what i saw there that apply to today and

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you watch "game of thrones," i love it, i watched the finale and i saw messages that resonate today. they refer to a king or queen, as your grace. they made a point of it. it's an adaptation, your grace, of the idea that a ruler should empower the mercy and suggestive empathy of god. but they rarely do. they're too often about themselves and their power, certainly, in that show and that is the opposite of grace and it's something for us to remember in a ruler. next, the dragon queen, explaining why she won't pardon or forgive any of the common folk. >> can't hide behind small mercies. >> we can't hide behind small mercies. that couldn't be less true.

however, we too often confuse being bold with going big. too many confuse a quest for more with being better, first, even though they often lead to worsts. the mistake is not sure rending the me to the we, so then when jon snow her moral opposite asks her to consider the fate of the many and when the council considers putting the choice of the next ruler to the ruled, same big mas taistake. >> they don't get to choose. >> maybe the decision about what's best for everyone should be left to, well, everyone. >> yeah, laugh now, while you can. then when the queen rejects her

beloved's entreaties, right, and she won't see mercy as might of her might, tragic irony, what does he do? he kills her. dramatic but also symptomatic of the problem. you can't or shouldn't just kill what you don't agree with. you can't or shouldn't look to overwhelm opposition. only one who gets is the one character that was developed to be an example of the worst. in my opinion, he became first. the dragon. the series example of gross power and fear and rage, the dragon is the only one who gets it in the end. how? all right, the dragon confronts the man who is his mother, that's what he thought the queen was. he could have easily done that. he could have barbecued the killer. why it won't hurt snow. but there's a bigger rationale as well. but it is that the dragon acts with outrage not at him by at

the throne. it uses its fire to melt the iron throne they all wanted desperately. why? the throne represent it is problem. concentrated power, the desire to concentrate power. act onsaid rightly power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. tierian gets the truth of this when he says this. >> from now on rulers will not be born. they will be chosen. >> that resonates, even in the ruling circle. but how? those who laughed at that idea of choice for the many, what do they do? they accede one by one to the choice of the new king. that's how consensus is always formed. you see it as the many but no, it's always one by one and connecting and making people believe in the bigger sense. the last point, brand the prone is king. he's in a wheelchair and that's how we all are, broken and in seeing the flawed as best. they divorce themselves from the idea of simple might making right, the weakest is, in fact,

sometimes the strongest. jon goes back to the night's watch, devotees you guys out there hate it. i don't care. but where else for him to be, literally on the wall. last takeaway, jon worries about his decision to kill the queen. he says to the wide tierian was it right? was it right? tierian says ask me again in ten years. so true. decisions, we're obsessed in the moment. we don't value them as a function of what comes next. remember, we're all so caught up in the now and what matters and seeing things in politics is so urgent, time is the feature and the ultimate judge of what was winning and losing and more importantly who did the right thing when it mattered most. will it stand the test of time? thank you for watching. "cnn tonight" with d. lemon starts right now. i'd be the dragon. >> i have no idea what