he a >> by and large. buttigieg had to come in and not look like a little boy and address what's happening in his city. i think owning it was a very smart idea and, gosh, go it work for him. joe biden not owning the bussing situation and support for it, not being able to at least express empathy, which is so amazing for joe biden to have the empathy he could have shown to kamala harris i think was devastating for him tonight. >> elena, this idea of -- i like to hear what the people who aren't on television, but around these guys, how they explain their own successes and failures. and it was interesting to hear people try to defend joe biden by saying, you know, this new generation, they apologize for everything. and if you don't apologize, then they kill you. but if you do apologize, they kill you. they didn't kill pete buttiegieg. i couldn't believe that he said, yeah, i couldn't get it done. well, if you can't get done diversity in south bend, indiana, how are you going to get it done in a complicated

like america? do you think that was a good play by biden? >> i don't think it is an issue of apologizing versus not apologizing. i think it's a matter of preparation. what it seemed to me to be mayor buttigieg knew that would come up in some way and prepared for it accordingly. interestingly, biden acted as though that would have never come up. and what kamala harris attacked him on, his past record. that lack of preparation almost seemed to translate into a sense of entitlement, like this would be an easy thing for him to coast through. >> i think that last part deserves a second beat, nathan. here's why. i deserved a lot of debate prep in the other hats i wear in my life. the idea of me giving you ideas for a debate is easy. me getting you to accept those ideas and me getting you to or you getting yourself to want to use them when the time comes is very different. joe biden knows who he is.

he knows where he's been. and he knows how he feels about it. there is zero chance they did not prepare for this. and, yes, i do have some information that they prepared for it. but it doesn't mean that he was going to say what they wanted him to say. and what does that mean going forward? if this is the way joe biden is going to be, does that mean he's going to have a hard time every time? >> he may not have known how it was going to be delivered. he may have known that poll sill si or issue was going to come up, but it was delivered in a personal way. not only was he defensive, he didn't even look at her. he was looking into the camera and she was a podium over and there was a lack of personal connection. this is just the first night or the first two nights of many debates. the vice-president is going to be in this race for a while, if not until the end. he's going to have to learn to be more agile instead of fumbling through answers and the next day cleaning up stories.

it's not going to be a sustainable effort for him. >> what's interesting about this, too, chris, at one point a mutual friend of ours sent me a note. wow, this is almost collusion between harris and biden at the very he beginning of the debate. there's always been this talk. wow, that might be the ticket. harris and biden. never, right? so, again, there's going to be a lot of debates, a lot of moments. have we seen a bridge burned here? potentially. >> by the way, we always get scrutinized so much, like this nice new parlor game. what's the worst thing that can be said about somebody. why am i laughing? because if you're going to blow up your best chance to beat the president, you're not going to wind up being the running mate. look what's on our screen, the president of the united states and the russian president. can we hear in what they're saying?

>> thank you very much, everybody. it's a great honor to be with president putin. his representative, my representative, we have many things to discuss, including trade and including some disarmament, some little protectionism perhaps in a very positive way. we're going to discuss a lot of different things. we've had great meetings. we have had very, very good relationship. and we look forward to spending some very good time together. a lot of very positive things going to come out of the relationship. so vladimir, thank you very much.

[ speaking foreign language ] >> translator: i did not agree with --. all the talk has been outlined. i haven't seen chavez since helsinki meeting. although we have been together, it is a great opportunity to follow-up on that. thank you very much. thank you for your attention.

>> thank you very much. thank you. >> thank you, guys. thank you. >> this is very difficult to decipher what's happening right now, let alone having the guy standing in front of the camera. but we did just hear the president of the united states

say, in response to somebody's question, he looked over at the russian president and said, don't meddle in the election. literally just like that. in fact, in the control room, they're going to rerack this right now. we don't call it that any more. i want you to watch it. this is the moment. >> don't meddle in the election. >> listen, fact is stranger than fiction these days. let's brick in the chief national correspondent jim sciutto in osaka, japan. i was going to have to ask you this tea leaves question, my friend, where the russian interference was to bring people up to date and what i and i just witnessed. he called the russian president by his first name, vladimir. great honor. we're going to discuss trade. good relationship, the u.s. president said. positive things. never mentioned russian interference in the election. and then in response to one of the questions, he said, yeah,

yeah, and don't meddle in the election, don't meddle in the election. your take? >> reporter: well, listen, it's clearly not a subject that the president of the united states takes seriously. he's sitting next to the russian president who, as the mueller report established just weeks ago, directed systematic interference in the 2016 presidential election. the president on his way here to japan, you'll remember he was asked by a reporter would he bring up election interference in his bilateral with the russian president. and he said, none of your business. that was the president's words there. he does bring it up, but in a facetious way, in a joking way, which is remarkable. and the president showing a comfort there as he often has shown with other despots, right? to say it's an honor to meet with him as he said with kim jong-un in north korea. a lot of good things come out of the relationship. listen, no one can disparage a u.s. president or world leader

seeking diplomatic relationships with countries like russia or north korea, but it's what the president -- it's the way he describes that relationship, chris. in very friendly, warm terms. and what he doesn't say, right? which is to challenge them on whether it's human rights violations or interference in the election. that was a test for this president. would he do what he didn't do in helsinki, for instance, in helsinki where he questioned his own intelligence agency's assessment of interference in the election. he sits next to the russian president and makes a joke. >> we've never seen that in american history, a u.s. president side with an inemical force, that's what russia is, when it comes to the conbe text what they did in the election, over his intelligence people on the world stage. we've never seen anything like it. let's bring in max putin, ron

brownstein. max, nobody expects this president to go heavy about russian interference because he thinks it's bad for him and he believes it's now a game of gotcha. he can't own it, he can't put his hands around it. but to treat it the way he just did, forget about what we think, forget about media perception or even political analysis. in terms of strategic thinking with a power like russia, what does that mean? >> well, once again, chris, i think that for somebody who thinks of himself as being very strong, donald trump actually comes across as very weak, very much as a supplicant to vladimir putin. donald trump is not showing any kind of strength. i would contrast to you the way he speaks to putin, the way right bunch he took off for osaka, the way he referred to angela merkel, chancellor of germany, one of our greatest allies. you have a woman, i won't

mention her name, she hates the united states worse than any person i've ever met. that's donald trump talking about the chancellor of germany, saying the chancellor of germany hates the united states worse than any person he's ever met. he thinks putin, what, is putin pro american? no, putin is one of our great est adversaries. there is a debate in the democratic debate who is a bigger adversary, china or russia. i would say china. but russia is certainly up there. they attacked our election, they may do it again. they're attacking allies. they are still invading ukraine. you remember back in november at the last g20 in argentina, trump refused to meet with putin ostensibly because putin had just taken a bunch of ukrainian sailors, high jacked ships. those ships haven't been released. putin hasn't justified this kind of outreach. trump feels empowered to reach out with the conclusion of the mueller investigation. >> ron, it becomes a question of how much does in really matter in the upcoming election. we know the issue matters.

we know it's going to matter because if they interfere with the election it will be something we have to be concerned about in terms of the nature of the compromise of oir democracy. but it wasn't mentioned in the debates tonight. not last night either. nobody comes after the president for it any more. is this just one more aspect of his teflon disposition? >> well, first, to your point along the way, it's important. it matters if the russians feel they have a green light tacitly to interfere in the election again. certainly as max's point and jim sciutto's point, the president was almost dismissive and facetious the way he talked about it was certainly sending encouragement. it didn't come out tonight, but i think the president's relationship with russia will be an issue in the general election. you know, when you talk about the teflon presidency, i keep coming back to this. if you look at the underlying reality of an unemployment rate under 4% and approval rate barely over 40%, that should not happen. in fact, as i have written in the last couple weeks, if you

look at people who say they are satisfied with the economy, for barack obama and george w. bush, three quarters of the people were satisfied with the economy said they approved of their performance in office. for donald trump it's 55%. that's the price of everything else that we watch from his relationship with putin to the way he talks about race to the tweeting. i mean, there is a price here. and i do think this will be an issue eventually, but obviously as you point out, was not in the democratic debates last night or tonight. >> also becomes who we wind up facing. if you have the demps caught up in a situation where they seem to be, while saying he's not a racist, he's not a racist, they keep on bringing up these big moments with their front runner for racist situations, whether it was state's rights, bussing or whatever it is, how do you beat somebody if you are that hurt going into it? all right, let's get one more take on this. jim, are you still with us? >> reporter: i am indeed, chris.

listen, i'm just digesting again -- if i could pipe in here. this, i believe, is the first time the president has stood next to the russian president in a public forum where they're making comments since that helsinki moment which by all accounts republican and democrat was an embarrassing moment for the president to take putin's side against u.s. intelligence agencies, u.s. lawmakers, et cetera, about russian interference in the election. the first opportunity to correct that, to make a tough stand, to choose country over politics, perhaps, and the president makes light of russian interference in the election, and that is a remarkable moment. it's a moment for this president and really for the country. keep in mind, chris, it's not just the words because we know this president has not made a priority of russian interference in the election. he's had one cabinet level meeting, right, on election security. his chief of staff told the

formerly secretary of homeland security not to bring up election security with the president because he associates it with somehow demeaning his election victory in 2016. so on a number of fronts, this is a president who doesn't take election security seriously. once again here, he makes a joke about it. keep in mind, chris, this, too. it's not a question of whether russia will attempt to interfere again in 2020. at least in the view of u.s. intelligence agency. it's to what degree and how will they attempt toer in fear. that's the view of national security establishment and the president made light of it again. i don't think we can under estimate what a moment that is for this president. >> even our banner right now, trump offhand comment to putin, don't meddle in election. offhand is giving it more credit than it deserves. jimmy, max, ron, thank you very much. 100%. anyway you want to qualify it is mitigating its strength. gentlemen, thank you for helping me. let's take a quick break. when we come back, let's reset

on what happened tonight in this debate. if we get more information about what's coming out of the meeting with the president and putin, we'll bring it to you straight away. a lot to figure out whether this president gets a second term. we'll take that on right after this. hey, who are you? oh, hey jeff, i'm a car thief... what?! i'm here to steal your car because, well, that's my job. what? what?? what?! (laughing) what?? what?! what?! [crash] what?!

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going to see kamala harris and maybe elizabeth warren come up. but tonight was harris's night in terms of the media perspective on it. i'm going to keep qualifying it because i want to see some polls. i'm not sure what matters to democratic voters yet. what happened tonight to distinguish harris does involve joe biden as well. she took him to task for his record on bussing and working with segregationist senators. and she did it in a way cory booker did not. here it is. >> it was hurtful to hear you talk about the reputations of two united states senators who built their reputations and career on the career and segregation of race in this country. and it was not only that, but you also worked with them to oppose bussing. and, you know, there was a little girl in california who was part of the second class to integrate her public schools,

and she was bussed to school every day. and that little girl was me. >> let's bring back my a-team. elena, mark, and nathan gonzalez. it's good to have all three of you here. and preston was saying to me while we were watching that, the difference between booker and harris is that booker wasn't on stage. >> yeah, that's right. >> what harris did was she played the prosecutor role. stared at him the whole time. joe biden was not looking at her, which was a mistake. and she personalized it and it hurt him. and it hurt him because it's a stupid position. the idea that we're going to look at something that was wrong because states have a tendency to do things in a way that the rest of the nation no longer respects them being done, and that's why you need strong federal authority -- i've heard biden argue this that way many times, but not tonight, nathan. >> i think that even -- as we were talking, this was a known

issue. when i mention the polls, if this was an issue of concern to you about joe biden, you probably weren't supporting him already. and he still has a high -- he's leading among african-american voters right now. is this going to be something that's going to persuade? maybe harris picks up by taking some from the other candidates rather than out of joe biden. maybe she benefits because of the attention --s >> does not help herself getting elected, that's for sure. elena, totally nonscientific, anderson had gary tuchman in iowa with a focus group. there was one african-american on the panel. he was the only person on the panel to pick joe biden as the winner of tonight's debate. totally non-scientific, but what a coincidence. what biden would have to worry about the most, what happened to harris no one is going to like biden because of what happened

in the african-american community. the one african-american picked him as the winner. >> how old was the person? i think demographics on age. >> he wasn't an old man. >> i think older african americans -- you and i know this. we know and nathan, elena, we know the biden play book. we know his connection to the african-american community. we know if kamala harris is going to win the nomination, that joe biden cannot come in that block of african-american voters like he is right now. but it's older african americans who seem to know joe biden. they know him from eight years in the white house, they know him for 30 plus years in the congress. they know him for the work he's done on civil rights. >> what happens when john lewis, clyburn and the head of the cbc, congressional black caucus, they say -- say what preston says, we know him, we trust him, we believe in him. you have younger african americans who are running have a different disposition. how does that reconcile itself?

>> sedgwick richmond, he was a guest on the team soon after the debate. he was supporting biden before and he was still defending him -- >> he's a surrogate for him. he's a coe chair on the election. >> maybe he's so entrenched he can't turn around. he's a different generation of african-american voters. maybe he's not like everyone else, but he's not john lewis. >> i don't think they're different. kamala harris and cory booker have an incentive to latch upon this vulnerability of joe biden whereas somebody looking to support him, the sedgwick richmonds of the world, they have no reason to try and use that to not support him. >> fair point. senator harris didn't seem to like this question when it was asked her of, i think chris matthews after the debate. he said to her as a suggestion, well, you did exactly what donald trump wanted done tonight. this is what he wanted to see, somebody take it out of joe biden in a way that could really hurt him within his own party.

>> that's inappropriate. >> that's insulting. >> she handled it by saying, i don't -- this is how i feel about this and this issue matters and we have to be able to discuss it. >> but the purpose of that statement is that she is running explicitly for vice-president and not president, so, you know, be careful with the guy who will inevitably be our nominee. >> or that will use whatever you can to take biden down so you can be the nominee, and that there is a calculation in that as well. i mean, that was one of the push backs on booker, right? especially when you had the older guard come up from the cbc and a legend like john lewis and say i'm good with joe biden. in fact, i used to do that. i used to still work with people who put the hose on me and arrested me and hated me because i had to get things done. >> in the irony of this moment, that will go down in history. it's going to be one of those

historic debate moments. whether it has any effect, it is now in the history books and people will look back on it, what's ironic is if you want to take 7 or 8 minutes of that debate and she like shut the stage down. let us not have a food fight. people don't want to see a food fight. they want to know how we're going to put food on their tables. out of nowhere, she came with a right hook and laid them out. >> now the question will be, did she want to quiet it down so she could clear the field so she could have a full run and take his legs out? but look, she's got to speak her truth. you have to connect with voters, know who you are and what matters to you. it's a big part of political persuasion and you have to say she did that very well tonight. let's take a quick break. stick around and we're going to have to talk go what it means going forward. what it means for those at the top and what it means for those who are trying to get there. hey, we're not talking about policy. you know what? the closer you get to the top of the hill, the more it becomes about taking out the opposition next.

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well, watching the last two nights, you can't say you know who the democratic nominee is going to be, but we know who the republican one is going to be, and we just watched him as the sitting president of the united states paling around with vladimir putin once again. and we do know that president trump was watching the debate when they all said that they'd provide health care for undocumented immigrants. and we know that because he tweeted, it's the end of that race. ron brownstein, let's get into the other side of the 2020 race,

the trump side. first of all, is the president right, the idea that if you're going to give health care to undocumented immigrants, you're never going to be president of the united states? >> i don't think it's disqualifying, but it's something they're going to have to explain. look, on a variety of cultural and social issues, as you know someone who has been around this a long time, they have barrelled past the caution of where demps were not only in clinton, bill clinton's day, but barack obama's day. that reflects changes in the country and changes in the coalition. but they're still going to have to litigate these in the general election against a candidate who, in trump, who appeals to white racial resentment than any national figure since george wallace. i have a somewhat different take than your previous panel on the debate tonight. i thought that, not necessarily who won and who lost, but about the significance of it. i don't think that the -- it's reasonable, having watched these debates a long time since 1984, usually you don't see an

immediate impact in the poll. the question is whether tonight's debate may have begun to shift the axis of the democratic race. chris, i mean, nbc put biden next to bernie in part because of the polls, and the basic divide in the race so far has been center embodied by biden versus left, embodied by bernie and elizabeth warren. i thought bernie and biden were divided by age. they seemed to be a step behind younger candidates who were flanking them, buttigieg on one side, kamala harris on the other, and who more reflect the modern diversity of the american party. we may be beginning to move a little bit away from a left/right argument toward a future/past argument and whether this diverse modern democratic coalition really wants a septigenarian white guy to mobilize that coalition. >> put an overlay on it.

fine, age, gender, sure, sure. but that party identifies somewhere between 75, 80% center left. how do you marry that with harris saying they'd get rid of private insurance and the idea of a 70% tax rate and bernie saying he's going to raise taxes, let alone on the middle class, how do you square that with -- >> first of all, the party is more moderate, it is older than people think. it is getting increasingly diverse. 40% of the voters could be nonwhite in 2020, which is historic high. 60% of the voters are over 45, many of those are middle age, middle of the road and middle of the country. they're not necessarily looking for a revolution. i think the evidence is pretty clear in the kaiser poll and elsewhere, that when you talk about completely eliminating private insurance and requiring people to go into medicare, that is a very heavy lift with the

electorate. support for medicare for all drops well below 50%. around 50/50 for democrats, it drops below 50% for the country overall. i think warren, sanders and harris by embracing that so unequivocally, again, that is a heavy burden to carry into the general election. promising to defend the aca, in particular its protections for people with preexisting conditions was absolutely critical to the democratic gaines in 2018. particularly in winning back some of the blue collar white women who were probably the decisive votes in making trump the president in the rust belt states. if you're talking about replacing the aca and the health care system, that does change the debate in a way that may give openings, will give openings to trump and the republicans. >> let's take that on in the next block. i call ron brownstein the professor because he's really smart. thank you very much, my friend, as always. bernie sanders tonight was blunt. if you are in the middle class and have health care, you will

pay higher taxes under his presidency. there was a but, and we're going to go into why he's going to say it's still a good deal for you. joe biden has a different plan. he says you've got to bring back the aca and make it what it was always supposed to be before the republicans said they'd never help work on it. which one of those works best with voters? we're going to have our political pros break down the policies and the promises next. , weeds are lowdown little scoundrels. don't stoop to their level. draw the line with the roundup sure shot wand. it extends with a protective shield and targets weeds more precisely. it lets you kill what's bad right down to the root while guarding the good. roundup sure shot wand. got bugs too? roundup for lawns bug destroyer kills and prevents them, even grubs. roundup brand. trusted for over 40 years.

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all right. now, one of the things that we saw tonight other than just who wanted who and the polsz and lse media, you have to look at the ideas bubbling to the top. the democrats all agree health care is what they should be talking about. if they didn't get that message from the midterms, they didn't get anything. but they do not agree even close on what the fix is. and here is a moment that will be talked about. >> will you raise taxes for the middle class in the sanders

administration? >> people who have health care under medicare 4 will have no premiums, no deductibles, no could payments, no out-of-pocket expenses. yes, they will pay more taxes, but less in health care for what they get. >> now, the senator front loaded that answer for a reason, but i don't know that anybody hears anything after they hear the second part. but let's discuss. jake yuder, jennifer grandholm we should point out helped biden with his debate press and mr. chris saliza. i see three people who are going to disagree with me about this entire conversation. that's good, that's why i love having you. grantholm, i start with you. do you like the way the former vp dealt with the scrutiny tonight? >> well, you mean do i like how the debate went and how -- >> how he did? >> how it was analyzed and all of that? >> yes. >> i think that -- all i can say is i think that it's great that there's going to be a lot of

debates. you know, there were a couple of places obviously where he had some difficulty. i think he had a really strong finish. i think his answer on this subject, health care, is really a good answer for, for the election, for the general election and the primary. >> we are going to talk primary. let me roll the dice here with you, only once. >> you know i'm not going to bite. >> did he not know he was going to be asked about his position on bussing? >> you said you had some inside information on that. i'm not going to contradict that, but i'm not going to go there. i'm not going to talk about how -- >> i'll only ask once. i'll take no for an answer. let's talk policy. jen ck. what you'll disagree with is going to be important to this audience. biden says you're not for the aca and not bringing it back, i'm not for you as a democrat. the big ideas for most of the field is we have to go medicare for all. forget about the aca, forget about private insurance. much more extreme moves.

why do you believe that's the way forward for the party and that biden is off? >> yeah, biden's point makes no sense at all. remember when they were selling the aca to us, they said it was a half measure and don't worry, it will eventually get us a single payer. great, deal, let's go there right now. saying that i'm going to stay with the aca, well, look, it was an improvement on what we had before, but it doesn't make any sense. it was supposed to get us to a point where we have something like medicare for all. now, medicare for all would actually save $3,000 for every family in america -- that's according to the rand corporation which is not anybody's liberal, okay. that's where we need to go. look, at this point, chris, there's 34 million americans with no health insurance. and if their kid breaks his ankle, they can take him to the emergency room. but if their kid gets cancer -- >> god forbid, you're right. >> society says, let him die, we can't have that. >> soliza, as you know from the

study, one is jenk's optimism the transition cost when you lose. the scrutiny concern is the voter hears, we're taking what you have, we're taking your private insurance and there may be a kick in the taxes on top of it. tough sell. >> i was surprised, honestly, given what a bunch of candidates on the stage the last two nights have said prior to this, that only four people raised their hand when they said, would you favor abolishing all private insurance? so, bernie sanders makes sense. elizabeth warren, there's been a little back and forth on it, but fine. de blasio, bill de blasio, mayor of new york city, doesn't have anything to lose there. and kamala harris tonight. i would point to in the spin room, kamala harris seemed to walk that back a little bit -- >> not the first time she's walked it back, by the way. for someone who is so reasonable and so ready to launch an attack

tonight, she's had trouble with that issue. >> big time. >> many times. and i don't get it. >> she had trouble with it with our colleague jake tapper, going back and forth on it. she is now saying, according to what i've seen coming out of the spin room, she thought she were saying, well, she's for her own plan that would sort of be in between -- be essentially what kirsten gillibrand is proposing, a bridge in between, which is not what bernie sanders and elizabeth warren are for. i was surprised you didn't have more people come out and say yes, i am for it. candidly among the democratic base it's popular. >> let's leave it there. let's talk about it more in the next hour. let me give it to you, gov. i like them disappointed. what's your last word? >> my last word is medicare for all and a green new deal is sort of -- both are like rorschach tests among this group. everybody has their own version of what that means.

kirsten gillibrand, she jumped on with bernie sanders bill, but she has a public option version of medicare for all. it's just it's language that everybody is filling in the blanks on. >> i love you all. you'll be back in the next hour and i appreciate you all for doing that, especially with these hours. all right. now, you heard senator harris tonight, kamala harris, clashing with joe biden on bussing. bad for biden, good for harris. all right. now, the substance of it is going to matter also. biden rejected harris's assertion that he opposed the practice, that she depended on as a child. what are the facts, daniel dale on one of the challenges biden faced tonight? facts first next. ♪

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bussing -- i never -- you would have been able to go to school the same exact way because it was a local decision made by your city council. >> do you agree today that you were wrong to oppose bussing in america then? >> no. >> do you agree? >> i did not oppose bussing in america. what i opposed is bussing ordered by the department of education. >> all right. let's bring in daniel dale to test the vp's record on this. first of all, before we get into what he actually said, do you believe that that is a distinguish with a difference that the vp is drawing there by saying i wasn't against it, i was against the federal government telling everybody how to do it? >> i think there is a distinguish there. i just don't think he's correct about the distinguish. and so you could, in theory, oppose federally mandated bussing while supporting some kind of bussing, like bussing that the local community voluntarily approves, but in the 1970s, chris, joe biden did not

use nuance. he was unequivocally opposed to bussing. he said things like it's an asinine concept. it's a bankrupt concept. he likened it to the vietnam war. on occasion he said things, well, in cases where there is deliberate, explicit segregation through things like deliberate gerrymandering, in those cases i'll allow bussing, but in all other cases it's terrible. >> what was the basis of why -- i get the hyperbole of how he characterized it. what was the meat behind the resistance? >> he said it was bad for communities. he said this is not the way to execute the goals of the civil rights movement. you're going to destroy both black communities and white communities. you're taking people out of their comfort zones and he also said things that might be difficult for some of his supporters to hear today. the notion that your dark skinned curly haired child needs to sit next to my blonde light skinned child to learn is

racist. he frequently made claims like that. biden's campaign says in context in the 1970s if you said i oppose bussing, it was understood you were talking about federally mandated bussing. they're saying he wasn't saying he opposed it in all cases. in the case of senator harris, that was bussing that was voluntarily approved by her local community in california. he wouldn't have opposed that. >> you're saying he didn't like the idea of it so it doesn't matter who is saying, yes, it can happen, he didn't like that it was happening. >> exactly. if you go back to these newspaper archives, a lot of articles he's quoted on this. he wasn't saying, look, i oppose federally mandated bussing, but if a local community wants to do it, they can do it. he was saying it the terrible. the most destructive thing that will hit delaware. he likened it to a war. the nuance wasn't there in the late '70s and early '80s. >> how big a problem is this going to be? you also have this weird generation play going on with

the black caucus. john lewis, a legend, clyburn, a legend within the party. the head of the cbc say, hey, we know joe biden and we know his head and we're okay with it. cory booker and kamala harris both said they found it unacceptable. >> i don't know how much of a problem it will be for a candidate who enjoys strong black support. barack obama knows this man. picked him as his vice president. we know that many people in addition to biden have evolved since, you know, 40 years ago and he's a different man. in addition, chris, a lot of people oppose bussing. you know, it's considered by a large number of people as a failed policy. will he be punished for opposing it? maybe not. think what may be troubling is the surfacing because of his dishonest on this and harris raising it, many of the comments he made on race, which many people who support him may not have heard before. >> the what is old is new again. daniel dale, always a pleasure. >> thank you, sir. >> thank you very much. all right. so, you're going to have

winners, your going to have losers. we'll see how it all bears out in the polls, to daniel's point, but kamala harris has a lot of buzz and she'll get a bump in the polls and that means she'll have people visiting the site and giving her money, and that's how you stay alive. if you've got winners, what else do you have? you've got losers. we're going to have predictions from the wizard of odds, o-d-d-s, about who goes up, who goes down. a lot more for you. stay with us. fact is, every insurance company hopes you drive safely.

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2:00 a.m. in the east and we're just getting warmed up. i'm chris cuomo. welcome back to this live late night edition of "prime time." joe biden's team says he was prepared for what kamala harris brought his way about bussing. well, he did not look like he was. and i don't think he was

prepared for what he got. twice tonight he said this. >> we can do this by making sure that we're in a position that we, in fact, allow people -- my time's up. i've also argued very strongly that we, in fact, deal with the notion of denying people to access to the ballot box. i agree that everybody once they -- anyway, my time's up. >> all right. look, policy matters. style matters just as much on the debate stage, and this is about the persona of persuasion. what did tonight mean for joe biden? let's bring back cenk uygur, jennifer granholm, who helped biden with debate prep but has not made any endorsements, and chris cillizza. cillizza, plus/minus for biden tonight? >> minus, minus. on that point, i don't understand. joe biden of all people, he's been involved in more debates