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this question on the census and now the president tweets otherwise. >> it's basically complete confusion, anderson. yesterday what we heard was something that surprised the court. the administration said we're going to drop our effort to add this question to the census. we're going to print the census without that question. that was surprising to them and now today it's a total 180. they're saying we're going to move forward to try to include this question on the census which is raising questions for the federal judge involved in that case and even people inside the white house. the difference here is the president's tweet from this morning which he said it was fake, even though we have the commerce secretary, anderson, on the record saying we're not going to move forward with this, we disagree with the supreme court, but here we are, we've told the census bureau to print this questionnaire without that question. >> yet, again, it is another example the president calling a news story fake that is not -- that is completely true. the commerce secretary, you know, the whole government was

behind this. they gave up. the lawyer for the department of justice, they didn't seem to have any idea what was going on in a conversation with the judge. >> they didn't. and that's what's most stunning when you read the transcript of what went on in this hearing today that wasn't supposed to happen but the judge saw the president's tweet and was accused about it. you read what the attorney for the justice department said, this is someone who's working with multiple administrations. he said this tweet was the first i had heard of the president's position on this issue. just like when you did. and they said, quote, i do not have a deeper understanding of what this means at this juncture other than what the president tweeted. >> the reality is the census bureau, they haven't stopped printing the questionnaire. and that question is not in the census as it is being printed now. >> yeah, and that's really what amounts to all of the confusion here. what is this census going to

look like? today another attorney told the judge we're moving forward. we've checked with the census bureau they're still printing this questionnaire as we speak. is that going to go out or are they going to try to delay it. but seriously, it is just a lot of confusion here, anderson. it's hard to understate what is going on here. you'll remember when the supreme court froze this, they wanted the administration to just simply make a better argument and now they said they weren't going to do it and now they're trying to say they are. >> thanks very much. let's get perspective from cnn political analyst kristin powers and jim schultz. this is not what a well functioning government looks like. does it make sense to you that the president would say this story is fake when in fact it was all confirmed by the commerce department, by wilbur ross, by attorneys for the government yesterday? >> looks like the ahead of the

executive branch changed his mind, anderson, and that's well within his providence to do so. the timing is going to provide some serious challenges and i'm sure that's something they're scrambling to deal with tonight in addition to issues the justice department has to deal with. >> changed his mind or didn't understand what was actually happening, which he must have been told about. >> yeah. it's hard to know exactly what happened here. i do have to say that it is surprising to me that this wasn't predicted by wilbur ross and anybody else involved in this, because this is the president's mo is to blow things up at the last minute. and i think because the supreme court did make it clear that you could come back with a rational, perhaps, you know, that there was a possibility that it's not surprising to me that actually this is what donald trump would want to do, that he wouldn't lay down arms and say let's forget it. if he was convinced that there was a way to move forward which is obviously i think what

happened. >> jim, some have suggested to maggie maggie haberman, even if this doesn't end up on the census, that it serves the president's purpose to throw a wrench into it right now because it raises doubts in the minds of people who will be taking the sentence about what actually the government is looking for. it might put fear into, you know, some people in the latino community, some people who may be undocumented about whether or not they should partake in the census and serves the purpose of what the administration wants to do. >> justice alito said in this matter that the courts really had no basis to stick their nose in this issue and policy

determinations that were made by the commerce secretary as it related to what questions are going to be included in the census. and he didn't believe it was the court's place to be involved in that issue. and roberts left the door open for there to be a change of course here or to supplement the rational behind including that question in the census. so they're well within their legal authority to do so. so this whole idea that they're trying to scare people off i think is a wrong one here because the court clearly left open the ability for the administration to put forth its argument. >> the court also said that the argument the administration put forward was a phony argument. that emails between doj and wilbur ross put, you know -- put that argument basically -- >> yeah, but only -- >> proved it wrong. kirsten, do you think this is about underrepresenting communities of color and -- >> yes. >> -- and that's what's at the

core of this? >> it's about underrepresenting communities of color. in large part, it's a power grab. it's an attempt to make sure that population numbers are lower so that there are fewer -- fewer people who are represented in this case people of color, and people of color who are maybe represented by democrats. and so i think the point of it is is to intimidate them out of participating in this, whether it's the president doing what he's going now or adding this question so they can drive down the numbers. this isn't even a secret. this is something that is republicans have been open about wanting to do. i don't know why you're acting so shocked by this. >> you know, no. i think there's a fine point to be put on here. again going back to the alito dissent, he said it was perfectly reasonable for a question -- for the government to understand how many folks in this country are actually

citizens. >> and john roberts said the opposite. he said he thinks there's a cause for concern here regarding the rational. >> no. he didn't say there's a cause for concern. as a matter of fact he found that i didn't violate the enumeration clause, i didn't violate the administration -- >> there was a -- it was reasonable to be concerned about the rational and they needed to come back and come up with a better rational. >> a different rational. one that is the actual basis. >> are you seriously sitting here and claiming that it is not the rational of the -- >> wait, wait. >> just stop. just answer this question. are you saying that it is not part of -- it is not being driven by the desire to drive down population numbers? is that actually your position? >> i think the position here is the one that the court succinctly stated was that the

purpose of this was to determine the citizens in this country, how many of them are -- the people in this country, how many of them are actually citizens. >> you're saying that like -- that that's what you believe? >> i'm stating what the court sa said and what the justices of the court said. if we're looking at this, the commerce secretary set forth a rational. roberts didn't buy it. they asked him to come back and give a rational -- >> she's asking what you think. do you want to say what you think? do you think this is about driving down reputation, particularly in communities of color? >> i'm not in the rooms -- i'm not sitting here -- i'm a lawyer. i deal with facts and law. and in this case i'm not going to speculate what they're thinking and what their intentions are. i can tell you what they said in the briefs and they made strong arguments in the brief and won on most of the issues. what i think and what i think --

what i think is it really doesn't matter. it's what's in those briefs and the arguments that the lawyers make. >> what did you say? >> i said i think it's telling that he will not answer the question directly. >> we'll let the viewers decide. thank you. a former democratic administration defense secretary weighs in on tomorrow's fourth of july event, tanks, warplanes and all. my conversation with arthur lisa burn bok who was the first person that e. jean carroll called and she'll talk about what that conversation was like when we continue. to the badlands. from ts from the mountains and the midtowns. from the islands to the highlands. and directly to those who understand...

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bad idea. first i have very mixed emotions about this. on the one hand, having served at the pentagon for those four years, i was always inspired by being around our young men and women who are in the military and their family and is what they sacrifice and their dedication and patriotism and can-doism. i like to see taking advantage of promoting just how much sacrifice they give to us and do for us and for our country. but i also am a traditionalist and the tradition in this country is for the fourth of july to be independence day. and i think what the president has done in trying to promote this as a spectacular event, he's the ring master of the greatest show on earth. and i think it comes at a time when he's attempting to politicize the institutions in this country which we like to think are being completely independent. he has referred to the military and to his generals as my

generals. he has referred to the judiciary as my court. he has referred to the federal reserve as my federal reserve. he's referred to the congress in a negative way in terms of power. so to me the most troubling and to my attorney general, by the way. but to me the most troubling is the potential politicalization of the military. it is one of the last institutions in this country in which the american people see as being nonpolitical. and when the president goes and makes speeches as he did in korea to say that the democrats wouldn't do this for you, only i can do this for you, he is driving a wedge in this country which i think will undermine our security if he continues to do that. it is not his military. these are not his generals. this is not his court. chief justice roberts said we're not your court members. we're the american people's court. i think the notion that he's appropriating this day and this

event to say it's about him and he's been successful. he's been successful in now directing attention to him which it's all about, how many people will show up, will he stay on script? how many people are expressing opposition to him. it's all going to be about him and the fallout from what he's done. i don't think it's a great idea. and i think the military, if they were put under oath, it would say it's a terrible idea for us. >> it was extraordinary when you think back on him as you just said in south korea talking to u.s. forces on the front lines there in a forward position and in a -- what was supposed to be a nonpartisan speech, saying the democrats don't care about the military and want open borders. the military represents the united states. there are democrats in the military and libertarians in the military and conservatives in the military, republicans. it represents everybody. for him to assume that everybody in the military is behind him

and he has said himself he has the military behind him, he has the police, construction workers, and bikers. it's kind of a, you know -- you could look at it and it can seem ominous. >> it's a very divisive technique that he's using. he's not presiding as president of the united states of all of us. he continues to play to a hard-core base. he continues to drive wedges. he continues to demean those of color, the immigrants trying to come in, black people in general, and i won't even get into the harriet tubman issue. so he's dividing it into white and black or colored. and i think that is a very, very dangerous thing for our country. and the moment the american people become convinced that if you're a republican, you support the military, if you're a democrat you don't.

it's going to divide this country and make us less secure in the future. so i support having planes fly ov overhead, but we can do that on armed forces day, veterans day, memorial day, we can do the -- those events to celebrate the sacrifice of our military. if you take a day like independence day where people gather on the mall, and now to have to choose are you going to sit down near where the president has vip seating, listen to the rock bands and other country bands and the performers down at the other end. i don't want to see this happen. i think it's going to become a tradition as far as president trump is concerned. there this is a warmup act, but it will be there next year and the year after. and i don't think it's a great idea. >> former defense secretary, always appreciate your time, thank you very much. just add why president trump got involved in a military trial involving a decorated navy

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president trump today congratulated navy s.e.a.l. found not guilty of the murder of a captive isis fighter. and he had this to say about the president on fox news this morning. >> i want to say thank you to congressman duncan hunter and congressman raffle norman and president trump. >> you've been through much together. glad i could help. trump tweeted the gallaghers should be moved to less restrictive confinement during the trial, which he was. he was considering a pardon before yesterday's verdict. they reduced his pay in rank for posing with a photowith a dead isis prisoner. his attorney general said this

morning that he will retire. i want to discuss this with jeffrey toobin and commanding general for the seventh army. jeff, is there any situation in which the president doesn't feel a need to insert himself? >> it's hard to imagine a more inappropriate place to insert himself. presidents in general have stayed away from pending criminal cases. that's a norm that presidents have observed. but remember, this is a military court-martial, meaning that the jurors and the prosecutors and the judge are all military officers so they are in the chain of command. he's the commander in chief. all the more reason why he should have stayed off this controversy all together and why it's so appropriate he got involved in this one even though -- >> and not just once it was done with a tweet, but even while it was going on with the idea of perhaps a pardon? >> a pardon and just obvious sympathy for him, which was

reinforced by fox news which, you know, that's not the -- the president is not in direct control of fox news, but the idea that the president would weigh in on a pending criminal case in the military is beyond inappropriate. >> do you think it's inappropriate for him to have weighed in while the trial was still going on? does it send a message to the military? >> before, during, and after, anderson. as a general officer when you're in command of an organization, they sometimes grant you the authority to be a court-martial convening authority. that means you are the one that actually passes the offense to the justice system, to the uniform -- through the uniform code of military justice to the military justice. once they get that, the commander, no matter how he or she feels about it, steps away because they want to let the justice system work. well, the commander in this case who passed this case forward to the judge and itted the situation and let the military

justice system take place. the commander in chief, president trump, is his commander -- or her commander. so having him be involved or having anybody at a cable network saying what should happen in a trial while it's ongoing, even when you're just suggesting that maybe they should be placed in different quarters is wrong. to say something afterwards is doubly wrong. >> i quarrel with one thing. i don't have a problem with fox news saying what they say. they're a -- they're using the first amendment and they were sympathetic to this defendant and that's their right. the problem here is the president getting involved because as you point out, he is the -- at the top of the chain of command which everyone involved in this case, the judge, the jurors, and everyone else, was in. >> general, the other thing that's interesting about this case is, i understand from a political standpoint why the

president might want to weigh in on it and might want to show support for a decorated navy s.e.a.l. the interesting thing about this case, allegations were being made by other navy s.e.a.l.s. it wasn't as if it was political correctness, something that the president might define as political correctness run amuck. it was something that was between navy s.e.a.l.s. >> yeah, there were a lot of unusual things in this case, anderson. i followed this very closely knowing the results of how it is going to be portrayed to the rest of the command, to the rest of the military forces. and by the way, that's another factor that you have to consider when you're talking about the military justice system. you're absolutely right that there was allegations by multiple members of mr. g gallagher's platoon saying he violated the law. the other situation that caused some confusion was the forensic

evidence is not available because it occurred all of this occurred in a combat zone and you can't go back and dust for fingerprints or interview witnesses or find out who died. so that puts a whole different spin on the -- this -- the entire situation as well as the one witness who was given immunity and testified that he was the one who killed the individual that mr. gallagher was charged with murdering. >> if i could emphasize the point the general just made, the key moment in this trial as i understand it was this other witness, another member of the military, who not only changed his story, but said, i'm the one who did it. now, how the prosecutors, you know, could handle that is -- it's very difficult for prosecutors to handle that, needless to say, and it seems to have led to the acquittal. but that witness who changed his story is a military person, and that person is under the chain of command. so the idea that you had this

last-minute switch, we don't know why or how or what the circumstances were of the change of mind, it render's the president's involvement even more inappropriate. >> interesting. thanks very much. happy fourth of july. >> same to you. coming up, she was the first person e. jean carroll called after an alleged sexual assault by donald trump. the writer, lisa birnbach joins me next. behr presents: tough as walls. that's some great paint. ♪ that's some great paint. behr. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with interior paints. right now get incredible savings on behr. exclusively at the home depot. bleech! aww! awww! ♪ it's the easiest because it's the cheesiest. kraft for the win win.

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the allegations of sexual assault against donald trump by writer e. jean carroll are still echoing around the country and the world. when i spoke with carroll last week, her memory of what took place was sharp even though she said it happened in the mid 1990s in new york city in a department store. >> and the minute i was in there, he shut the door and pushed me up against the wall and banged my head on the wall and kissed me. it was so shocking. i couldn't -- of course i started laughing again. because -- >> you started laughing? >> of course. >> why? why of course? >> because there was a way of -- if it was at all erotic, if a man is laughed at, it usually

will make him -- and he put his shoulder against me, to hold me against the wall. and at that point i realized i was in a very difficult situation. >> she said she immediately told two close friends about the incident. both of those friends have talked on the record corroborating the conversations they had, but they talked off camera to "the new york times." now one of those friends, lisa birnbach, has decided to talk with me about what happened in her first television interview. i spoke with her earlier. >> first of all, how do you know e. jean carroll? >> e. jean was the best friend of the girlfriend of my former husband's former partner. >> it rolls off the tongue. >> exactly. we met at some social gathering at this guy's apartment -- >> you've known e. jean carroll for how long? >> i would say about 29 years. >> okay. >> and i'm basing that on when i

was pregnant and -- >> right. >> and i think i was pregnant when i met her. >> and you had actually -- you actually had known donald trump back in those days. >> i wouldn't say that i knew him. i would say that i interviewed him in either december of 1995 or january of 1996 because he allowed me to be the first journalist to see mar-a-lago as it was making its debut of a club instead of just his summer -- or winter house. >> so do you remember the day e. jean called you? >> i remember that it was dinner time. i lived on 93rd street then. i had -- based on when it must have been in 1996, i had a 6-year-old and a 2 1/2-year-old. and like many phone calls at dinner time, there must have

been a lot of, wait, hold on, put that down. okay, what were you saying? i was a distracted mom of two little kids and had other stuff going on as well. so i remember her talking to me very fast, very breathlessly, laughing too, and telling me the story of meeting donald trump outside or right inside bergdorf's. >> was she calling you from the street. because she said when she left, she went to her bag and picked up a phone -- >> i think she was, yeah. and why me? why did she call me? i think either because i had just written this story and she knew i had just spent time with him or i had a very easy phone number and she said she remembered my number. and in fact she still remembers it. that might have been it. >> do you remember what she said? >> yes. some of it.

she said, lisa, you won't believe what happened. she said i was walking through the door at bergdorf's and you won't believe who said hello to me, it was donald trump. and he said are you the hi advice lady. he said, why don't you give me advice on a present. and then she told me how she tried to interest him in stuff on the first floor. which made sense, you know. it was kind of a cute -- meet cute and interesting thing to do with someone who is kind of a new york character. and then how they got upstairs on the escalator, i think he likes escalators, and then how they got into the lingerie

department. at this point my memory is a little blurry on the fact that i thought she was in the dressing room by herself and he broke down the door, pushed the door in. but apparently as she told you, he followed her in and she thought she was having, you know, kind of a play date with him. it seems like she was still laughing and not scared. and what i do remember e. jean repeating many times was he pulled down my tights as if that were the worst of all of it. >> she repeated that several times. >> several times. >> was she -- was she laughing in the phone call to you -- >> a little. >> she said she has been laughing initially in the phone call? >> she was a little. again, the laugher, nervous or adrenaline or whatever it was, plus he pulled down my tights, made it seem like it was awkward

and bad but maybe not as bad as it turned out to be. and then she told me how he pushed her against the wall and pinned her, i guess -- >> with his shoulder. >> with his shoulder. and it hurt and also she had just had maybe head trauma. i'm not a doctor -- >> she said when he pushed her, she bumped her head against the wall. >> yes, and it hurt. and with his free hands he managed to penetrate her in some form. she said that and i think at this point -- >> she said he had penetrated her with his penis. >> yes yes. and at that point she said she wasn't sure how far, you know, that maybe it was -- i can't believe we're having this conversation. but maybe it was some, maybe it was all. and then she managed to knee

him, i think, and leave. now at that point i definitely left the dinner table because i didn't want to say what i was about to say to her, stop it, put that down, e. jean, that's rape. he raped you. no, no, it was five minutes of my life. >> you used that word to her, this is rape. >> that's the word that came to mind. that's the concept that i -- you know, it seemed like it was rape. >> when you said to her, that's rape, she still doesn't use that word. >> she hates that word. she -- i didn't even understand that until now. but she didn't say -- she demurred and said, no, we were fighting. forget it. don't tell anyone. we'll not speak of this again.

i said you should go to the police. let's go to the police. i i will take you to the police. she said, no, i want to go home and take a shower and go to bed. even though i'm a bit younger than e. jean, i sometimes feel like the mom in our relationship. and i said come to my house and i'll feed you and, you know, we'll take care of you. no, no, no, i just want to go home. but she asked me to keep this a secret. and i kept it a secret. >> you never spoke -- did you ever speak to her about it again? >> never. >> really? >> never, never. >> there was never a followup phone call saying you should go to the police? >> no. i never called her again about it. i went back to chicken nuggets. >> did you know she called her other friend? >> no. no, it wasn't my story.

it was her story. apparently he told carroll martin the next day, a lovely local anchor -- a colleague of e. jean's and she told her in person maybe the next day or the day after also swore her to secrecy. carroll had a different attitude told the episode, don't tell anybody. this guy has lawyers up the gazoo and he'll sue you and deny it and make it uncomfortable for you. between my well-meaning advice, she took carol's advice and kept quiet about it. we discuss why e. jean carroll didn't come forward when then-candidate trump was running

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in the mid 1990s. >> did you think during the campaign she might come forward when other women began to tell stories they say might happen. >> i didn't think she would. she's a very self-contained person. she's -- she's an advice giver. she's not really -- she's not like a lot of people. she moves to her own drummer and i did not think she would. >> i talked to a woman who alleges that mr. trump assaulted her on a plane which he of course denies and she said that she -- in hindsight wishes that e. jean had come forward because there's strength in numbers. >> e. jean thinks these allegations are falling on deaf

ears in this country. and i sort of wonder if that's true. so many people have a ho-hum reaction to her story, even though hers is the most dramatic of all of the accusations and allegations. >> because she is alleging rape. that's what it is. >> i think part of her not calling it rape is a generational thing. i think e. jean carroll is not a victim, does not want to be seen as a victim, does not want to be pitied. does not want us to feel sorry for her and doesn't want to prolong the conflict, the personal conflict. you know what, donald trump may not remember this episode because this may have been one of many episodes. >> did you worry about coming forward? >> i totally did not want to do this. not with you in particular. no, i didn't want to because

mean and devastating things are posted by people who feel like this is a politically motivated attack. no one's attacking here, you know, i'm just >> the president said she's not my type. and possibly. >> she was his type then, though. she was. she's still a very stunning woman. but she was she had long blond hair. i think that's enough of a type. she was glamorous. really glamorous. >> he's also suggested this is something the democrats are putting out she's a operative or -- do you see her as plit co. >> not at all. i wonder if she even votes. i know she cares about politics.

but hr thing is relationships. she's a relationship adviser. and i think shee feels protective of readers. they have followed her advice. and she didn't really follow her own. she realized during the me too reporting that if she were being 100% honest she should really tell the story of what happened to her. because she does counsel her readers to report and to follow up. and to protect themselves. that's why she did it. not political motivation. in my opinion. >> thank you, very much. >> thank you, anderson. >> we want to tell you about a special new series ahead. movie fans will not want to miss. a very special guest is here to help us preview it. next.

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this sunday the all new cnn origin nam series the movies premiers. showcasing some of the biggest hollywood stars and most memorable moments in films like this. >> show me wax on, wax off. >> who could forget. i got a chance to speak with the original ka ra te kid earlier. >> how do you see it? that was -- you had been in the outsiders. you were well known. that certainly changed your

career. >> that film has from the get go even though it was a sleeper build success. i think it was ghost busters came out the same summer and maybe raiders of the lost arc. it was one of those talked about building it's audience. people returning and going back to see it. doing the crane kick in the street. you kind of knew you might be making another one of these. it was -- >> did you know? nobody sets out to make a bad movie. did you know that it would have that kind of appeal? >> we knew we had something special. and that came it was evident from me but how easy it was to work with him. that sort of give and take we had. >> how often do people still pass you on the street and say wax on wax off.

>> we have the show this series now on you tube. that is blown up. we have had two seasons we start the third -- >> funny or die. >> wax on bleep off. that was my baby. on my terms. thank you. that's my best four minutes of the day. i enjoy that. well done. yeah, sweet delay get him a body bag. that has become part of the american lexicon. >> it's become this pop culture the theories. it was a kick illegal. should, nobody is not cheering for daniel in 1984. it's fun to say he was a, he pushed it a bit. >> i did like the bigger blond guy. >> listen. >> it was based on other things. he was a jerk. but he had a certain appeal.

>> everyone likes the bad boy. >> i had an odd thing about elizabeth shoe. >> an odd thing? >> as a gay guy. i had a crush on her. and other gay guys had crushes on her. who were you friendliest with on the set. it doesn't matter. >> listen, how do i respond to that? yes. >> i got you here to talk about her. >> i see i'm the warm up. i was close with obviously pat. the woman who played my mom. the dynamic the single mom raising the son. single parent in another town that fish out of the water element. the human levels. which why it resonates. >> i appreciate you talking to me. everybody is rooting for know. great to meet you. appreciate it. set your dvr now for the the

movies it premiers sunday 9:00 p.m. on condition. news continues. let's turn is over to laura coats and "cnn tonight." >> this is "cnn tonight" i'm lawyer coats sitting in for don lemon. on this fourth of july eve as we all prepare to celebrate the birth of america, all of washington is scrambling to prepare for event the president promises to be the show of a lifetime. designed to satisfy an audience of one. military fly overs being readied. white house aids working on the president's speech delivered from the lincoln memorial. there are rumblings tonight things may not turn out the way the president wants. a source saying military chiefs fear the whole thing will amount to a campaign event. the armed forces front