new york. >> and what will it look like this time? thanks so much for joining us, everybody. "the draw" for the cnn democratic debates starts right now. >> and welcome to a special edition of ac 360. i'm anderson cooper. we're taking you behind the scenes for the upcoming democratic presidential debate cnn is hosting in detroit. usually how candidates are chosen for debates which night they appear on, who is standing next to them on the stage, that is all decided behind closed doors. tonight we want to be transparent as possible. 25 candidates appear on the debate which takes place in less than two weeks. for many candidates the debates will take place over two nights, july 30th and 31st at 8:00 p.m. eastern here on cnn. we want you, the voters, to see

how we're choosing which ten candidates will appear on stage together on each night. candidates and their campaigns are waiting to learn who they will share the stage with and they're going to find out just as you will and we will live tonight in the draw. let's go to wolf for more. wolf? >> anderson, a lot of thought and care has gone into this process to make sure it's transparent and fair. here's how tonight's draw will work. cnn is conducting three draws. the first draw, the second draw, and the final draw. in accordance with the rules mutually agreed upon by cnn and the democratic national committee, candidates will be assigned to one of these draws based on their current level of support in qualifying polls. this is to ensure candidates of comparable polling are featured evenly across both nights. the first draw has ten candidates who will be divided randomly into the two nights, july 30th and july 31st. colorado senator michael bennett. montana governor steve bullock.

new york mayor bill de blasio. former maryland congressman john delaney. hawaii congresswoman tulsi gabbard. new york senator kirsten gillibrand. former colorado governor john hickenlooper. washington governor jay ensley. ohio congressman tim ryan. and author maryann williamson. the second draw has six candidates who will be divided randomly into the two nights. once again, july 30th and july 31st. new jersey senator cory booker. south bend, indiana, mayor pete buttiegieg. former hud secretary julian castro. minnesota senator amy klobuchar. former texas congressman beto o'rourke. and businessman andrew yan. the final draw has four candidates who will be randomly divided into the two nights, july 30th and july 31st. former vice-president joe biden. california senator kamala harris. vermont senator bernie sanders. and massachusetts senator elizabeth warren. here's where tonight's drawings

will take place with these three cnn anchors. brianna keilar. victor blackwell. and anna cabrera. let's go to brianna to explain what happens next. >> wolf, cnn is televising the draw tonight because we believe that this process should be as transparent as possible. so in that spirit we are keeping things simple and low tech. so here's what victor, anna and i will be doing. we all have name cards like these ones. one for each candidate in our group. we have the same number of date cards, half for the first night july 30th, half for the second night july 31st. so we'll be putting the candidate cards into one box titled presidential candidates. we'll put the date cards in this other box titled debate night. and then randomly we'll draw a name and a date to determine which night each candidate will appear. and, wolf, you will be keeping tabs on all of the results and they'll be constantly updated on the bottom of the screen as well. >> and just minutes from now, brianna, we're all going to learn the final debate lineups for both nights at the same time as the candidates. meantime, let's go back to

anderson. >> i'm going to be here all night with our analysts to talk about the draw. let's get a quick reaction from david chalian. david, talk about why this is so important and how the night somebody is on and who else theyshire the stage with, how critical that can be. >> very critical. let's just look at what happened in the first debate in miami. kamala harris totally transformed the position that she was holding in this race in that one debate performance -- >> because she was with joe biden. >> she took on vice-president joe biden. recall getting to why we're doing it this way as well, anderson. in the first debates, you had four of the top five candidates on one stage and you had elizabeth warren alone as a top five candidate on the other stage. so she had a night to herself in terms of top tier on the stage. that's not going to happen this time around because of the way that we're doing the three separate draws to try and ensure that as equally as possible in terms of where they stand with democratic voters right now across the country, they are evenly divided across these two nights. >> and it's not just who is on

stage together that's going to be completely random. it's also what night they happen to be on. >> exactly. >> david, the stakes obviously for a lot of these candidates are critical. for some this could be their last debate. >> it could be because the qualifications get much more stringent in september. and we know from the first debate as david mentioned, candidate positions did move as a result because the audiences were very, very large. there was new pew poll out that said half of democratic voters are saying they're paying a lot of attention, which is higher than 2008, higher than 2016. so you've got to believe there are going to be a lot of people watching this. by the way, on this issue of nights, i spoke to a number of campaigns today who said their preference would be to go the second night because they want to see exactly what cnn has up its sleeve for them in terms of questions and approach. >> but also julian castro, remember, last time around he had a great night in the first debate, which was forgotten after the second debate because

of the clash between joe biden and kamala harris. so that's important. there is a luck of the draw here literally. i've been spending my week talking to a lot of strategists who coach -- who coach these candidates, and they all say to me, look, in the end, this draw is luck and we're going to have to make the best with what we get. >> which is why i think it's so interesting to actually televise it tonight because i've never seen the actual selection process that we or any other network does. but just to see how -- i mean, it is random. >> it is random, and it is fair in the sense that you will have the candidates in the lower tier, the middle tier, the top tier evenly divided. you'll get two relatively balanced debates in terms of standing in the polls. iowa did venture the candidate watching most closely tonight the candidate called the front runner heading into the first debates was no longer called the front runner, that's the former vice-president joe biden. he's still leading the polls, but he is in the pack now. he has fallen in the national polls. if you look deep into the polls

about characteristics he is struggling and so is he going to be next to senator harris who took it to him in the first debate? is he going to be against senator sanders who had a back and forth on health care that has gotten pretty pointed or a different comparison? will it be elizabeth warren coming up like this and will she get a chance to be standing next to joe biden? for joe biden who was the front runner who is now a leader, that's a big dynamic, especially when your calling card is i'm the guy you want to go up against trump. if he has another troublesome debate, that calling card looks weak. >> david, as much as the candidates in the campaign say we're focusing on our agenda, we're not talking about other people they do think about how else is on the stage, who is going to attack them, how can they attack the others. >> as david mentioned, the lesson of the last debate is that if you want to get some notice out of this, you've got to go after somebody. and i think that, you know, i think more than before the last debate, all the candidates are going to be scoping out. how do we get some conductivity here? how do we create moments that will be remembered?

so i expect that as soon as these match ups are developed, people are going to be filling in their strategy and thinking about how do i get something going here? >> you know, for some of these folks, it's literally do or die as you were saying before. this is it. they're not going to get to go on to the next round unless they do get some traction here and they get some people really cheering for them. >> their poll numbers, a lot to watch for. we are moments away from the first draw when ten candidates, half of the field, are going to be assigned a debate night in the first draw. you'll see it all in real time. brianna keilar will have the first draw after a quick break.

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learn which night they're debating. they are michael bennett. steve bullock. bill de blasio. john delaney. tulsi gabbard. kirsten gillibrand. john hik enlooker. jay ensley. tim ryan is. and maryann williamson. let's go back to brianna to begin with the first draw. >> wolf, we are all set. i have a name card for every candidate in the first draw. so i am going to take them and mix them up so that we can then draw from the candidate box. and match them with the date. so i have all ten of these names here. i'm going to give them a good shuffle. and because we are being very open about this process, we have multiple camera views, including an overhead camera. we want you to see everything that we are doing. you, the viewer at home, can actually see the inside of this debate night box and this presidential candidate box. we cannot. so breaking my candidate pile into three here. as i put these in the

presidential candidate box, i'm going to give these names, which are name side down, a stir in the box. keeping them flat there. and now the dates. as you can see, we have five for the first night. and five for the second night. july 30th and july 31st. we're going to mix these up and put them in the debate night box. so that we can match all of our candidates here and let you know which nights these ten candidates in the first draw are going to be taking the stage. all right. breaking this pile into thirds, putting this in the debate night box here where i will give it a stir, and we will get going to see when these candidates will be debating. first out of ten names here is bill de blasio, mayor of new york. he ran -- he was the campaign manager for hillary clinton's

successful bid for the senate in 2000. he'll take the stage on the second night, wednesday, july 31st. next, our second name out of ten, michael ben it, colorado senior senator, former superintendent of denver public schools, he will be on the stage as well the second night, wednesday, july 3rd. on the 31st, pardon me. steve bullock, montana governor. the first time we are going to be seeing him on the debate stage, and that will take place on tuesday, july 30th, the first night of debates in detroit. next, our fourth name that we are drawing, tulsi gabbard, hawaii congresswoman. she's a major in the army national guard, has deployed to iraq and kuwait. she will take the stage on the second night in detroit, wednesday, july 31st. our 5th name out of ten here, tim ryan, ohio congressman, challenged nancy pelosi to lead

house democrats in 2017. he is going to be debating on the first night, tuesday, july 30th. as we get to the second half hereof our ten, our 6th name in this first draw, john hickenlooper, former colorado governor, former denver mayor. he will take the stage on tuesday, july 30th, the first night in detroit. and we are now here on our 7th name. john delanie, former maryland congressman, was once the youngest c.e.o. on the new york stock exchange, and he is going to be on the stage the first night as well, tuesday, july 30th. 8th name that we're drawing here, kirsten gillibrand, senator from new york, initially appointed to the seat swh hillary clinton vacated it to be secretary of state. she will be on the stage wednesday, july 31st. and 9th, maryann williamson, spiritual and motivational speaker and author with several best sellers to her name.

you'll see her appearing tuesday, july 30th, the first night. that leaves us with jay ensley, washington state governor who has challenged the trump administration with successful lawsuits. he'll be debating the first night. the first draw is finished, wolf. we have two more to go. let's get a recap from you. >> all right, brianna. so the debate rosters are taking shape. let's recap who has been assigned to each night so far tuesday, july 30th, the first night of the debates. maryann williamson, john delanie, john hickenlooper, tim ryan and steve bullock. the second night, wednesday, july 31st, jay ensley, kiersten gillibrand, tulsi gabbard, michael bennett and bill de blasio. anderson, back to you a. >> much more ahead as we discuss the debate lineup. second draw with victor blackwell. we'll be back in a moment.

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welcome back to watching the draw for the cnn democratic presidential debate on ac 360. candidates will learn when they will be debating. they will share a stage in detroit. on the following night so far wednesday july 31st, jay ensley, kirsten gillibrand, tulsi gabbard and bill de blasio. who will debate with them? time for the second draw. wolf. >> the voters and candidates can see the selection process for themselves and verify that it's open and fair. the first draw is done. now it's time for the second draw. six candidates will be assigned to a debate night in this round. we've divided them into groups based on their rankings in

recent polls. cory booker. pete buttiegieg. hul janua julian castro. amy klobuchar, beto o'rourke. andrew yan. victor has the second draw. victor. >> you know how this works. we have six candidate cards. we're matching them with six cards to determine which night they will debate. let's start by grabbing the candidate cards here and i will give them a shuffle here behind the boxes. and remember, we have these overhead cameras for complete confidence, full transparency. you can see everything i'm doing. three angles, three cameras. placing them into the presidential candidate box. a quick mix. let's do the same thing now with the date cards. we have three each for tuesday, july 30th. and wednesday, july 31st. another shuffle. mix them up. and place them into the debate

night box. quick mix. i won't look into the box, but you can look into the box through the overhead camera. let's start to pick the candidates. first up, cory booker, new jersey senator, former mayor of newark, new jersey. he will hit the stage in detroit on wednesday, july 31st. up next, amy klobuchar, minnesota senator, serving a third term, former prosecutor in the state. she will debate on tuesday, july 30th. senator amy klobuchar. andrew yang, businessman and former ambassador for global entrepreneurship chosen by the obama administration, will debate on wednesday, july 31st. all right. three down, three to go. up next, beto o'rourke, former texas congressman, challenged ted cruz for the senate seat in

2018. he will debate on tuesday, july 30th. all right. two each now for tuesday and wednesday. next julian castro, former hud secretary, former mayor of san antonio, will debate on wednesday, july 31st. so that means that pete buttiegieg, south bend, indiana, mayor, took a seven-month leave of office to serve in afghanistan, will debate on tuesday, july 30th. the second draw is now finished. one more draw to go. wolf, back to you. >> thanks, victor. lets a.m. look at how the two nights are shaping up. on the first night tuesday, july 30th, pete buttiegieg. on the second night, julian

castro, andrew yang, cory booker join gillibrand, bennett and de blasio. cooper, back to you. >> the panel draw is going to be extremely important because it's really those candidates that a lot of these, the first draw candidates and the second draw candidates are gunning for. >> yeah, and what is shaping up here, if you look at tuesday night, it's like moderate night. you're going to have a real ideological difference will be on display between the two nights of these debates in detroit. i mean, klobuchar, bullock, ryan, hickenlooper, delanie, o'rourke, buttigieg. this is a night that's going to show one side ideological of this party, centri side. >> so far. >> so far. castro, yang, booker, de blasio, gabbard, ensley, colorado, has a

bunch of liberals here he's going to be eager to contrast himself with on wednesday. again, you are right, we'll have to see how the top four split. >> because if elizabeth warren and bernie sanders end up on tuesday night, you wonder if the discussion becomes the future of the democratic party -- >> exactly. this is where we are now. >> i would bet that the folks on tuesday night are hoping that one or both of them end up in their draw so they can position off of them and make the argument from the moderate end on some of these issues like health care. >> you know, and castro won't get a chance to take on beto o'rourke -- >> which is where he did quite well. >> he did quite well in the first debate. and with bennett, i'm wondering if he's thinking, well, this is okay for me on wednesday night because i can really differentiate myself from a lot of liberals that are going to be standing next to me, and that might be good for me. and if biden is in this group -- >> the final draw is biden, kamala harris, bernie sanders,

elizabeth warren. >> they are the four leading, that's why they're in the final draw. if the former vice-president picks up the pen, that would be great. vice-president biden, kamala harris, they went at it in the first debate. they are the four leading canned datsz. you have four candidates, that allows you six potential match ups, right? the other candidates are waiting to find out who is going to be at the center podium. if we get this, you get a rematch of debate one where these two went at it and dominated the discussion. maybe mr. castro broke through a little bit. largely the first debate was about this. or will you get this? this will be the first democratic debate, first presidential debate with two women at the center podium as leading candidates. you have a historically diverse field. this would be fireworks. if you had biden versus sanders, they've been fighting publicly this week. senator sanders says he's lying about his health care plan. the transition, how much it would cost, how much it would take. both candidates have run before -- >> which is interesting because in the first debate they really

didn't go toe to toe with each other. >> because of this. they didn't really get the chance because of this. i'm going to blank when out for a second. here would be a fascinating pairing here. would you get this? this is a fight that neither one -- these candidates, senator harris and senator sanders want to have because they like each other. they right now hold more than 30% of the democratic primary vote nationally. for somebody to win, one of them -- >> sanders and warren. >> sanders versus warren. they are holding 30% plus of the vote nationally. if you look at the state of new hampshire, they're the leading candidates are long with joe biden. they agree on most of the issues, but they're taking up a lot of space. at some point for this race to move, that has to happen. >> the other big match up would be either they circle or they go to war. elizabeth warren, kamala harris. everybody assumes you have the two progressives fighting each other and the two moderates fighting each other at the top. but some polls show that you

have a lot of people who are warren and then harris is second choice. or harris and warren is second choice. there is a fight for the heart and the love of the female vote. one thing about this thing that's very interesting, you have a lot of racial diversity on wednesday night. and you also -- you separated the texans, but you put the new yorkers together. the two most interruptive people last time, gillibrand interrupting, you have the two most interruptive people wednesday night. i don't know who gets to talk on wednesday night month matter who they pick. >> one thing about the tuesday lineup i think really could be important is that pete buttiegieg really has the opportunity to shine on the stage for a certain segment of progressive voters that are still a little bit on the fence about him. there are a lot of african-american voters, a lot of women who want to know why pete buttiegieg should be the guy that they go for when they have the opportunity to vote for somebody with more diversity of experience, racial, gender, the rest of t. so now that he's in

with all the moderates, he really has an opportunity to -- >> that is a strategic question for him because is his best bet to be fighting with the progressives for the progressive vote, or does he have more room to run if biden should stumble among the moderate, more moderate voters. and i think that's a strategic judgment he's going to have to make before -- >> governor? >> i think both him and i would say -- beto o'rourke has so much to lose and potentially so much to gain. and how he identifies himself, he's got a similar issue because he's not quite in one box or the other being from texas. so he's got a moment. you know, honestly, if i'm looking at this, i'm thinking, maryann williamson, he's going to be so happy on that first night because he is really -- i mean, she's so progressive and different. she's the one who stands out. plus, you know, she has the opportunity to come across as a

little more presidential than some people online have been viewing her as. >> on tuesday, let's say elizabeth warren ends up on tuesday. you know, these are all large number moderates to make the case. not only a moderate can beat donald trump. you're not where -- the liberals are not where the party is. and elizabeth warren has an opportunity, i think, to say, i can beat him and you want to attack me? come at me and i will tell you how my policies are good for the american people. so if she is on that stage with them, she can really differentiate. >> or if she's on the stage with the former vice-president, if you get -- >> there you go. >> if you get this, warren and biden, because she is ascending right now. she is the candidate that's been slow and steady, but she has ascended to the national poll, she ascend to the state polls. in the last day -- >> right, right. >> harris used the opportunity to go up against vice-president biden to help herself. she has been moving even faster. if she got that opportunity,

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and welcome back. coming up to it, the final draw for the cnn democratic presidential debate, 16 of the 20 candidates know which night they'll be on the stage in detroit. here are the lineups so far. on tuesday, july 30th is pete buttiegieg, amy klobuchar, tim ryan and steve bullock will go head to head in detroit. one night later wednesday, july 31st, julio castro, andrew yang, tulsi gabbard, michael bennett and bill de blasio will share the stage. david chalian joins us now. what do you think the candidates

would like to see happens next? >> the stakes are high in this moment. we already discussed debates do matter. we know that. but there are certain match-ups here that the candidates are more eager to have than the others. for instance, joe biden, who does not want a repeat performance of what happened in miami, that would be a real crushing moment and he is looking to come out of the gate stronger and he wants to draw a contrast with bernie sanders. i am sure that would be his ideal pick tonight to go up against bernie sanders, have this health care fight they've been having for a week in front of the whole country and try to resolve this ideological battle inside the party. harris and warren, the two candidates who are sort of on the rise here, they're looking to extend their moments. they're looking to dig in from some of the support of sanders and biden. i think they would be happy to take on either of those folks on the stage night. you have to remember these four that are remaining, these are the top contenders in the race. so this is where it's really going to matter for them. these final four, these top

president obamai polling candidates, who they match up with. >> let's get back to would have. >> rm we're down to the final draw grouping the candidates on recent polling. these are some of the biggest names in the race. kamala harris, joe biden, bernie sanders, elizabeth warren are moments away from finding out when they'll be debating. this will go a long way in determining the dynamics of the two debates. let's go to anna cabrera. she has the final draw. >> wolf, by now our viewers know the drill. i want to walk you through it one more time. again, this is the final draw. and we have four candidates left. joe biden, kamala harris, bernie sanders, and elizabeth warren arranged here in alphabetical order. two for july 30th on tuesday, and two for wednesday, july 31st. let's start with the name cards of the presidential candidates and put them in the box. again, i'm going to give these a good mix, this final four chosen because of the polling position

currently. and a reminder, full transparency, you can watch the camera above me overhead. also worth noting, these final four are four of the top five fund-raisers in the last quarter. put them in the box, give them a good mix. three sitting senators and a former vice-president are about to learn their debate nights. grab the debate night cards. again, come over here, give those a nice little shuffle. okay, let's drop those into the debate night bin. mix them up. let's find out who our first candidate is in our final draw. massachusetts senator elizabeth warren, she's been in the senate

now since 2013. also former harvard law professor. she will be debating on tuesday, july 30th. the first night. one down, three to go. our second candidate and our final draw is california senator kamala harris. she's been serving now since 2017 in the senate. previously was the attorney general of the state of california. she will be debating on wednesday, july 31st. two down, two to go. our next candidate in our final draw is the vice-president joe biden. served alongside barack obama in the white house for eight years. before that he was in the senate for over 30 years serving for the state of delaware. he will be debating on the second night, wednesday, july 31st. so we'll have another match up with kamala harris and joe biden. that leaves our final candidate

of the night, senator bernie sanders from vermont as the runner up, the democratic primary to hillary clinton in 2016, has been in the senate now since 2007 and been in washington since 1991. he will be debating on tuesday, july 30th against elizabeth warren. the final draw is now finished. let's go back to wolf. >> the roster, anna, is now set for cnn's two night presidential debate event in detroit. so let's review who is sharing the stage. these ten candidates will face off the first night tuesday, july 30th. and they are bernie sanders. elizabeth warren. they will join pete buttiegieg, beto o'rourke. amy klobuchar. maryann williamson. john delanie. john hickenlooper. steve bullock. on the second night wednesday, july 31st, joe biden and kamala harris will join julian castro,

andrew yang, cory booker, tulsi gabbard, michael bennett, and bill de blasio. there's one more piece of this puzzle. that's the last to be decided. coming up we're going to reveal how the candidates will be positioned on stage each night. right now back to anderson. >> all right, wolf, thanks very much. john king, david chalian was talking tuesday night, the first night being moderate night. >> not so much, but it does after the calculation. is it these two, warren and sanders against the moderates, or just because they're sharing these two, senator warren are close friends -- >> are they actually close friends? a y >> yes, they are. they are close. they're holding 30% of the democratic vote. do they defend medicare for all and other things against john delanie? john delanie says it's a bad idea. john hickenlooper says it's a bad idea.

steve bullock says it's a bad idea. amy klobuchar says it's a bad idea. is it these two against them? or do we get fireworks between these two? this to me is the unanswered question. at some point just like kamala harris decided, i'm friends with joe biden i like joe biden, i was friends with bo biden. the only way she keeps her momentum going is to go through him. does she do that now or decide right now is the time to defend the progressives, partner with him to make the case against them a progressive can win? is that the strategy this time, or is it fireworks between the two of them? and i'm talking about in the context of what does senator warren think. what does senator sanders think? senator sanders is struggling. he's in the middle of the pack. he has enormous fund-raising network. he has a loyal group of supporters. he can be in this to the end. if you look at him vis-a-vis 2016, he's in the teens. does he decide she's a threat? she is a threat. dz he dee said side to air it in the debate. that is a of my question. >> to add to tuesday, there are

a couple people on the stage and they are all going to want to differentiate themselves to the degree because it's make or break for de blasio and hickenlooper. what they're going to try and do is go after warren or bernie and say, look, we are -- here's what i believe and you don't represent the party. so to your point, these other people could play into this. >> yes. >> and try and score against these two, and then they could team up together and put off that fight until another day. >> it's also worth noting in this, the most diverse field, the democratic party has ever had, all the first night are white candidates and the racial diversity is entirely in the second night, which just changes the dynamic, especially because obviously race has been a front and center issue in america this week. it has been in this campaign. it is an issue that is sort of coursing through this democratic primary, and it's just interesting, of course, random draw that it ended up that way

with all white candidates on one night and -- >> there are ways to differentiate themselves that is not necessarily about medicare for all. i think that where elizabeth warren and bernie sanders really could come across as quite different candidates, when you're talking about race, when you're talking about those issues, senator warren has been historically considerably more comfortable with them than senator sanders has been. if they both have a question like that, i think that could be a real opportunity -- >> in that particular vein, she, elizabeth warren does not have as long of a record as bernie sanders does. she's going to go back. she has to decide, does she want to go after him on his vote on giving immunity to gun manufacturers, for example? does she want to go after him on his opposition to, you knoll, potentially opposition to reparations, et cetera? so that, that is interesting because he doesn't have as much to go after her. >> let's also look at wednesday night. the rematch between biden and harris -- >> listen, this is going to be

the thrill erer manila. both of these candidates have a lot on the line. kamala harris just knocked this guy on his seat. and the question is -- people say, listen shr, she got a lot of it. there is a quiet concern. maybe she's too me. she's too harsh. she has to make a calculation. do i keep doing that. he, on the other hand, has to show some spine. they're going to be calculating, how tough, how mean. if he gets too tough, then he overdid it. so they have a big fight. >> she's going to be helped by cory booker, though. don't forget this is the first time cory booker has been on the stage with joe biden after he came out. he was so critical of biden after biden talked about the segregationists that he worked with in the united states senate. >> right. >> and i think -- we'll see if booker goes after biden. >> i'm sorry. >> no, that will be, that will be a possibility. >> i think we also ought to allow for the fact that even though these match-ups are

important, and i appreciate the fight night analogies, they all have imperative strategically -- elizabeth warren is doing very, very well, but she's doing well with college-educated voters, very liberal voters and young voters. she hasn't broken through with white working class voters and her message is geared that way. she needs to find -- i think she would have liked to been in the debate with biden to have that discussion about the bankruptcy bill to burnish her vote there. kamala harris did very well in defining herself as a fighter in that moment. it was a very dramatic moment. of all the top contenders, i think her message is least fleshed out, and so beyond having biden on that platform, she needs to use that time to tell people exactly what this candidate is about. >> for our viewers, how high the stakes are, not to use that cliche yet again, how many of these 20 will likely go on to the next debate? >> on night two, if you start with night two and you put night

two up only, vice-president biden -- get this to go here -- vice-president biden and senator harris, they're the only two who have qualified so far. so for the second debate you need to be 2% in four qualifying polls and have unique donors. if your fund-raising -- money follows momentum. so if you're them, you're thinking, okay, am i going to be there in september? i have to do something here, which means they're your targets. that's the best way to make news and the best way to get headway is to go after them. that's night two. let's clear this out and look at night one. of the candidates up on night one, senator sanders is in round three. elizabeth warren is in, mayor buttigieg and congressman o'rourke is. you have more candidates who have already qualified for the next round. some big names they're, senator klobuchar. governor bullock, this is his first debate. he's trying to make a name for himself. can he make the outside argument i want a trump state? can he make it to september? is part of the argument here. i would say this. i have a question in the second round of debates here about

mayor buttigieg in the sense that he was the early surprise of this field. he was the guy who shot up. he blocked beto o'rourke from the new interesting next generational face lane. the guy from middle america, he's plateaued. he's had the police shooting issue back home. he's raised a ton of money. he's built a pretty good organization so far and he's proven he's got the fund-raising resources. where is his play? where is his play for who am i in this race and can he -- he's in the top five. this has been a five-candidate race even though there's 24, 120 qualified for the debates. the leader, we've had a consistent five at the top of the polls, he's at the bought president obama of those five. he's plateaued. he needs a moment. what will it be? >> the debate fireworks may depend on which candidates are closest to each other. physical location often matters in the face to face match offs. we'll reveal their podium positions next. most people think a button is just a button. ♪ that a speaker is just a speaker.

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the draw is complete. the lineup for the cnn presidential debates are set. wolf? >> here's how they will be each night based on the ranks and the polls. we'll show you the podium order, the candidates with the highest polling numbers will be positioned in the center of the staining. here the candidates will be debating tuesday, july 30th at 8:00 p.m. eastern. on the left side of the screen. mary ann williamson, tim ryan, amy klobuchar. in the center, pete, beto o'rourk. john hickenlooper, john delaney and steve bullock. here's the candidates will be debating wednesday july 31st. let's go to the left side of the screen. michael bennett, kirsten, julian

castro, cory booker, joe biden, kamala harris, andrew yang, tulsi gabbard, jay inslee, bill de blasio. >> so discuss. >> seeing joe biden in between booker and harris. the two that were most aggressively complaining about his remarks about the segregationists. cory booker is what launched that after joe biden made those remarks and kamala harris followed through. there's joe biden standing right between two that created a real problem for joe biden and how to respond to that. ? so if you are in joe biden's camp tonight and you're planning over the next two weeks, what is your, i mean, the pundits over

here. >> in full disclosure, i helped on the first debate. i'm not helping on this because it is cnn sponsored and i don't want there to be a conflict. joe biden came out and did a full apology with respect to anything he said that hurt him and it is another opportunity for him to clarify his position. he is probably hoping this issue comes up. my guess is they're probably preparing him for a nice response. here's one thing that second night is. are they on the second night? yeah. the second night. you have kirsten gillibrand. another issue that joe biden has been dealing with in terms of the hyde amendment. and anita hill. so i think you'll see some more female issues. fema-related. >> does joe biden need another opportunity to say i'm sorry about something? >> i don't think he needs one.

>> as long as we have you here, what happened? that was an obvious question that was happening. why wasn't he prepared for that? >> i'm not at liberty to talk about what happened behind the scenes. >> i thought i would give it a whirl. >> biden is now like, the pinata. with two people next to him, listen, even if kamala doesn't go after him aggressively, she'll be prepared to counter punch. if you're joe biden, did you really want me back on stage? he probably did not. >> don't you think he has an opportunity to say, okay, we can talk about this. the real person we need to be talking about in terms of race is donald trump? >> and that's what he should do. >> aside from these moments of friction that i think we're anticipating with joe biden, his debate performance in the first debate was really pretty lackluster.

i remember sitting there in the opening moments thinking, if he were not the front-runner, we would not be paying any attention to him at all. so i think there is an opportunity for him to come out and redefine himself. he did not get a chance. >> there is so much material. >> forget substance of the first debate. the calling card of joe biden is i'm the calling card who can beat trump. these other people are wonderful, great, they're not ready to go up against trump. there he is in the middle. she's going to come at him again. she's in trouble. she'll have to find a way to come after him. you know the mayor will come after him saying he's part of the old guard in washington. other people here have the same calculations. if he has another disappointing performance, no matter what it is about. his whole calling card is, i'm the guy to get trump. >> the whole point is that you have to in this 30-second or 60-second response, get your answer up and then go on the attack hopefully against trump.

and you're in michigan. in michigan, because of the affordable care act being attacked, you'll see double the number of uninsured people. it is a prime place to talk about issues. >> i'm not quoting her but one of the things she said, and i think david you said something similar, this is not about, going to be in the end about plans. this is not won on who has the best plan. donald trump didn't win because he had the best plan. there are other larger issues at stake and that's what a lot of voters are looking at. >> i said before the first debate, it is more important now. more than anything that joe biden says, how does he look? does he seem engaged? does he seem like he's up to it? that's what really hurt him. there are a lot of concerns about the substance of his answer. he also looked a beat behind and that's a real question. >> night one. let's talk about it. >> night one is fascinating. in the middle, senator sanders

whom we saw in the last campaign. senator warren in the middle. hillary clinton was wrong. the pragmatic approach does not work and by extension in this campaign, joe biden is wrong. the fix obamacare approach is not the way to go. we have to go medicare for all. we can sell it. free college. other progressive ideas, we can sell all these things in one election. that's what they believe. that we can change the democratic party, go big, go bold. a lot of people on the stage disagree with it. they'll get incoming. no question. they'll get incoming from here, from here, saying it's too much. we cannot sell it to the country. michael due kakis lost 40. they were not that liberal. why are we doing this? this will be a fascinating night. >> pete will be happy. >> i think in the argument betw