and welcome to a special edition of "ac 360." the draw for the cnn democratic presidential debates. i'm anderson cooper in washington. tonight we're taking you behind the scenes of the upcoming democratic presidential debates that cnn is hosting in detroit. now, usually how candidates are chosen for debates, which night they appear on, who is standing next to them on the stage, that's all decided behind closed doors, but not tonight. tonight we want to be transparent as possible. 25 candidates appear on the debate which takes place in less than two weeks. for many candidates the debates will take place over two nights, july 30th and 31st at 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on cnn. we want you, the voters, to see how we're choosing which ten candidates will appear on stage together on each night. the candidates and their campaigns are waiting to learn who they will share the stage with and they're going to find out just as you will and we will

live tonight in "the draw." let's go to wolf for more. wolf? >> anderson, a lot of thought and care has gone into this process to make sure it's transparent and fair. here's how tonight's draw will work. cnn is conducting three draws. the first draw, the second draw, and the final draw. in accordance with the rules mutually agreed upon by cnn and the democratic national committee, candidates will be assigned to one of these draws based on their current level of support in qualifying polls. this is to ensure candidates of comparable polling are featured evenly across both nights. the first draw has ten candidates who will be divided randomly into the two nights, july 30th and july 31st. colorado senator michael bennet. montana governor steve bullock. new york mayor bill de blasio. former maryland congressman john delaney. hawaii congresswoman tulsi gabbard. new york senator kirsten gillibrand. former colorado governor john hickenlooper.

washington governor jay inslee. ohio congressman tim ryan. and author maryann williamson. the second draw has six candidates who will be divided randomly into the two nights. once again, july 30th and july 31st. new jersey senator cory booker. south bend, indiana mayor pete buttigieg. former hud secretary julian castro. minnesota senator amy klobuchar. former texas congressman beto o'rourke. and businessman andrew yang. the final draw has four candidates who will be randomly divided into the two nights, july 30th and july 31st. former vice president joe biden. california senator kamala harris. vermont senator bernie sanders. and massachusetts senator elizabeth warren. here's where tonight's drawings will take place with these three cnn anchors. brianna keilar, victor blackwell and ana cabrera. let's go to brianna to explain what happens next.

>> wolf, cnn is televising the draw tonight because we believe that this process should be as transparent as possible. so in that spirit we are keeping things simple and low tech. so here's what victor, ana and i will be doing. we all have name cards like these ones. one for each candidate in our group. we have the same number of date cards, half for the first night july 30th, half for the second night, july 31st. so we'll be putting the candidate cards into one box titled "presidential candidates." we'll put the date cards in this other box titled "debate night." and then randomly we'll draw a name and a date to determine which night each candidate will appear. and, wolf, you will be keeping tabs on all of the results and they'll be constantly updated on the bottom of the screen as well. >> and just minutes from now, brianna, we're all going to learn the final debate lineups for both nights at the same time as the candidates. meantime, let's go back to anderson. >> i'm going to be here all night with our analysts to talk about the draw. let me just get a quick reaction starting with our political director, david chalian. david, talk about why this is so important and how the night

somebody is on and who else they share the stage with, how critical that can be. >> very critical. let's just look at what happened in the first debate in miami. kamala harris totally transformed the position that she was holding in this race in that one debate performance -- >> because she was with joe biden. >> she took on vice president joe biden. and recall getting to why we're sort of doing it this way as well, anderson. in the first debates, you had four of the top five candidates on one stage and you had elizabeth warren alone as a top five candidate on the other stage. so she had a night to herself in terms of top tier on the stage. that's not going to happen this time around because of the way that we're doing the three separate draws to try and ensure that as equally as possible in terms of where they stand with democratic voters right now across the country, they are evenly divided across these two nights. >> and it's not just who is on stage together that's going to be completely random. it's also what night they happen to be on. >> exactly. >> david, the stakes obviously for a lot of these candidates are critical. for some this could be their last debate. >> it could be because the qualifications get much more stringent in september.

and we know from the first debate, as david mentioned, candidate positions did move as a result because the audiences were very, very large. there was new pew poll out that said half of democratic voters are saying they're paying a lot of attention, which is higher than 2008, higher than 2016. so you've got to believe there are going to be a lot of people watching this. by the way, on this issue of nights, i spoke to a number of campaigns today who said their preference would be to go the second night because they want to see exactly what cnn has up its sleeve for them in terms of questions and approach. >> well, but also julian castro, remember, last time around he had a great night in the first debate, which was forgotten after the second debate because of the clash between joe biden and kamala harris. so that's -- that's important. there is a luck of the draw here literally. >> yeah. >> ooiv been spend

>> i've been spending my week. talking to a lot of strategists who coach -- who coach these candidates, and they all say to me, look, in the end, this draw is luck and we're going to have to make the best with what we get. >> which is why i think it's so interesting to actually televise it tonight because i've never seen the actual selection process that we or any other network does. but just to see how -- i mean, it is random. >> it is random, and it is fair in the sense that you will have the candidates in the lower tier, the middle tier, the top tier evenly divided. so you'll get two relatively balanced debates in terms of standing in the polls. i would venture that the candidate watching most closely tonight was the candidate called the front-runner heading into the first two debates, who is no longer called the front-runner, and that's former vice president joe biden. he's still leading the polls, but he is in the pack now. he has fallen in the national polls. if you look deep into the polls about characteristics he is struggling and so is he going to be next to senator harris who took it to him pretty aggressively in the first debate? is he going to be against senator sanders who had a back and forth on health care that has gotten pretty pointed or a

different comparison? will it be elizabeth warren coming up like this and will she get a chance to be standing next to joe biden? so for joe biden, who was the front-runner, who now is a leader, that's a big dynamic, especially when your calling card is i'm the guy you want to go up against trump. if he has another troublesome debate, that calling card looks weak. >> he's in trouble. >> david, as much as the candidates in the campaign say we're focusing on our agenda, we're not talking about other people they do think about how else is on the stage, who is going to attack them, how can they attack the others. >> as david mentioned, the lesson of the last debate is that if you want to get some notice out of this, you've got to go after somebody. and i think that, you know, i think more than before the last debate, all the candidates are going to be scoping out. how do we get some conductivity here? how do we create moments that will be remembered? so i expect, you know, as soon as these matchups are developed, people are going to be filling in their strategy and thinking about how do i get something going here? >> you know, for some of these folks, it's literally do or die as you were saying before.

this is it. they're not going to get to go on to the next round unless they do get some traction here and they get some people really cheering for them. >> better poll numbers. a lot to watch for. all right. we are moments away from the first draw when ten candidates, half of the field, are going to be assigned a debate night in the first draw. you'll see it all in real time. brianna keilar will have the first draw after a quick break. through ancestry i learned so much about

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and welcome back to "the draw." for the cnn democratic presidential debates. as we randomly choose which candidates will be on debate night july 30th and 31st in detroit. to 20 democrats are going to be divided into two debate nights, ten candidates each. we told you before we went to break how important the mix of candidates can be. so with that in mind let's go to wolf and get things started. >> all right. anderson, for each debate we want to randomly draw three candidates. we split the groups based on their standings in the polls. it's time for the first draw and you'll see it live. ten candidates are about to learn which night they're debating. and they are michael bennet, steve bullock, bill de blasio, john delaney, tulsi gabbard, kirsten gillibrand, john hickenlooper, jay inslee, tim ryan and marianne williamson.

let's go back to brianna to begin with the first draw. >> wolf, we are all set. we are ready to go here. i have a name card for every candidate in the first draw. so i am going to take them and mix them up so that we can then draw from the candidate box. and match them with the date. so i have all ten of these names here. i'm going to give them a good shuffle. and because we are being very open about this process, we have multiple camera views, including an overhead camera. we want you to see everything that we are doing. you, the viewer at home, can actually see the inside of this debate night box and this presidential candidate box. we cannot. so breaking my candidate pile into three here. as i put these in the presidential candidate box, i'm going to give these names, which are name side down, a stir in the box. keeping them flat there. and now the dates. as you can see, we have five for the first night.

and five for the second night. july 30th and july 31st. we're going to mix these up and put them in the debate night box. so that we can match all of our candidates here and let you know which nights these ten candidates in the first draw are going to be taking the stage. all right. breaking this pile into thirds, putting this in the debate night box here where i will give it a stir, and we will get going to see when these candidates will be debating. first out of ten names here is bill de blasio, mayor of new york. he ran -- he was the campaign manager for hillary clinton's successful bid for the senate in 2000. he'll take the stage on the second night, wednesday, july 31st. next, our second name out of ten, michael bennet, colorado's senior senator, former

superintendent of denver public schools. he will be on the stage as well the second night, wednesday, july 3rd. third in this drawing of ten -- on the 31st, pardon me. steve bullock, montana governor. the first time we are going to be seeing him on the debate stage, and that will take place on tuesday, july 30th, the first night of debates in detroit. next, our fourth name that we are drawing, tulsi gabbard, hawaii congresswoman. she's a major in the army national guard, has deployed to iraq and kuwait. she will take the stage on the second night in detroit, wednesday, july 31st. our fifth name out of ten year, tim ryan, ohio congressman, challenged nancy pelosi to lead house democrats in 2017. he is going to be debating on the first night, tuesday, july 30th. as we get to the second half here of our ten, our 6th name in this first draw, john

hickenlooper, former colorado governor, former denver mayor. he will take the stage on tuesday, july 30th, the first night in detroit. and we are now here on our 7th name, john delaney, former maryland congressman, was once the youngest ceo on the new york stock exchange, and he is going to be on the stage the first night as well, tuesday, july 30th. eighth name that we're drawing here, kirsten gillibrand, senator from new york, initially appointed to that seat when hillary clinton vacated it to be secretary of state. she will be on the stage wednesday, july 31st. and ninth, marianne williamson, spiritual and motivational speaker and author with several best-sellers to her name. you'll see her appearing tuesday, july 30th, the first night. and that leaves us with jay inslee, washington state governor who has successfully

challenged the trump administration with several lawsuits including the travel ban. he'll be debating the first night. the first draw is finished, wolf. we have two more to go. let's get a recap from you. >> all right, brianna. so the debate rosters are taking shape. let's recap who has been assigned to each night so far tuesday, july 30th, the first night of the debates. marianne williamson, john delaney, john hickenlooper, tim ryan and steve bullock. the second night, wednesday, july 31st, jay inslee, kirsten gillibrand, tulsi gabbard, michael bennet and bill de blasio. anderson, back to you. >> much more ahead as we discuss the debate lineup. second draw with victor blackwell. we'll be back in a moment. most people think a button is just a button. ♪

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and welcome back. you're watching "the draw" for the cnn democratic presidential debate and this special edition of "ac 360." candidates will learn when they will be debating. they will share a stage in detroit. on the following night so far, wednesday july 31st, jay inslee, kirsten gillibrand, tulsi gabbard and bill de blasio. the question is who will debate for them. time for the second draw. we're back to wolf. >> all right. anderson, we're making sure the voters and the candidates can see the selection process for themselves and verify that it's open and fair. the first draw is done. now it's time for the second draw. six candidates will be assigned to a debate night in this round. we've divided them into groups based on their rankings in recent polls. cory booker, pete buttigieg, julian castro, amy klobuchar, beto o'rourke and andrew yang. let's go to victor blackwell who has the second draw. victor?

>> wolf, thank you. all right. now you know how this works. we have six candidate cards. we're matching them with six cards to determine which night these candidates will debate. so let's start by grabbing the candidate cards here and i will give them a shuffle here behind the boxes. and remember, we have these overhead cameras for complete confidence, full transparency. you can see everything i'm doing. three angles, three cameras. placing them into the presidential candidate box. a quick mix. let's do the same thing now with the date cards. we have three each for tuesday, july 30th and wednesday, july 31st. another shuffle. mix them up. and place them into the debate night box. quick mix. now, i won't look into the box, but you can look into the box through the overhead camera. let's start to pick the candidates. first up, cory booker, new jersey senator, former mayor of newark, new jersey. he will hit the stage in detroit

on wednesday, july 31st. up next, amy klobuchar, minnesota senator, serving a third term, former prosecutor in the state. she will debate on tuesday, july 30th. senator amy klobuchar. andrew yang, businessman and former ambassador for global entrepreneurship chosen by the obama administration, will debate on wednesday, july 31st. all right. three down, three to go. up next, beto o'rourke, former texas congressman, challenged ted cruz for the senate seat in 2018. he will debate on tuesday, july 30th. all right. two each now for tuesday and wednesday. next, julian castro, former hud secretary, former mayor of san

antonio, will debate on wednesday, july 31st. so that means that pete buttigieg, south bend, indiana mayor, who took a seven-month leave of office to serve in afghanistan will debate on tuesday, july 30th. the second draw is now finished. one more draw to go. wolf, back to you. >> all right. victor. let's take a look at how the nights are shaping up. on the first night tuesday, july 30th, pete buttigieg. on the second night, julian castro, andrew yang, cory booker they join jay inslee, kirsten gillibrand, tulsi gabbard, michael bennet and bill de blasio. cooper, back to you. >> the panel draw is going to be

extremely important because it's really those candidates that a lot of these, the first draw candidates and the second draw candidates are really kind of gunning for here. >> yeah, and what is shaping up here, if you look at tuesday night, it's like moderate night. i mean, you're going to have a real ideological difference will be on display between the two nights of these debates in detroit. i mean, klobuchar, bullock, ryan, hickenlooper, delaney, o'rourke, buttigieg. this is a night that's going to show one side ideological of this party, more centrist side, a little bit more moderate side. >> so far. >> so far. you're right. castro, yang, booker, de blasio, gabbard, gillibrand, inslee, michael bennet of colorado, has a bunch of liberals here he's going to be eager to contrast himself with on wednesday. again, you are right, we'll have to see how the top four split. >> because if elizabeth warren and bernie sanders end up on tuesday night, you wonder if the discussion becomes the future of

the democratic party -- >> exactly. this is where we are now. >> i would bet that the folks on tuesday night are hoping that one or both of them end up in their draw so they can position off of them and make the argument from the moderate end on some of these issues like health care. >> you know, and castro won't get a chance to take on beto o'rourke -- >> which is where he did quite well. >> he did quite well in the first debate. and with bennet, i'm wondering if he's thinking, well, this is okay for me wednesday night because i can really differentiate myself from a lot of liberals that are going to be standing next to me, and that might be good for me. >> right. >> and if biden is in this group -- >> the final draw is biden, kamala harris, bernie sanders, elizabeth warren. >> i can show you here again. these are the four leading candidates in the polls. that's why they are in the final draw. if the former vice president -- if i pick up the pen, that would help, right? vice president biden, kamala harris, they went at it in the first debate.

they are the leading candidates. you have four candidates, that allows you six potential match ups, right? the other candidates are waiting to find out who is going to be at the center podium. the other candidates will be in the center of the stage. if we get this, you get a rematch of debate one where these two went at it and dominated the discussion. maybe mr. castro broke through a little bit, but largely the first debate reviews were about this. will you get this? this will be the first democratic debate, first presidential debate with two women at the center podium as leading candidates. that would be a big deal for the democratic party in which you do have historically a diverse field. this would be fireworks. if you had biden versus sanders, they've been fighting publicly this week. senator sanders says he's lying about his health care plan. the transition, how much it would cost, how much it would take. both candidates have run before -- >> which is interesting because in the first debate they really didn't go toe to toe with each other. >> because of this. they didn't really get the chance because of this. i'm going to blank this out for a second because here, to me, this would be a fascinating pairing. would you get this? this is a fight that neither one -- these candidates, senator

harris and senator sanders want to have because they like each other. but this is a fight that has to happen at some point in this campaign. they right now hold more than 30% of the democratic primary vote nationally. for somebody to win, one of them -- >> sanders and warren. >> sanders versus warren. they are holding the progressive -- if you can't see that very well, i can do it in the bluer color. they are holding 30% of the vote nationally. if you look at the state of new hampshire, they're the leading candidates are long with joe biden. this is -- they agree on most of the issues, but they're taking up a lot of space. at some point for this race to move, that has to happen. >> the other big matchup would be either they circle or they go to war. elizabeth warren, kamala harris. everybody assumes you have the two progressives fighting each other and the two moderates fighting each other at the top. but some polls show that you have a lot of people who are warren and then harris is second choice. or harris and warren is second choice. so there's a fight for the heart and the love of the female vote. one thing about this thing that's very interesting, you have a lot of racial diversity on wednesday night.

>> yeah. >> and you also -- you separated the texans, but you put the new yorkers together. so the two most interruptive people last time, you had gillibrand interrupting all the time and de blasio interrupting all the time. you have the two most interruptive people wednesday night. i don't know who gets to talk on wednesday night month matter who they pick. >> one thing about the tuesday lineup i think really could be important is that pete buttigieg really has the opportunity to shine on the stage for a certain segment of progressive voters that are still a little bit on the fence about him. there are a lot of african-american voters, a lot of women who want to know why pete buttigieg should be the guy that they go for when they have the opportunity to vote for somebody with more diversity of experience, racial, gender, the rest of it. so now that he's in with all the moderates, he really has an opportunity to do it. >> that is a really interesting strategic question for him because is his best bet to be fighting with the progressives for the progressive vote or does he have more room to run if biden should stumble among the

more moderate voters? and i think that's a strategic judgment he's going to have to make before -- >> governor granholm? >> i think both him and i would say -- beto o'rourke has so much to lose and potentially so much to gain. and how he, you know, identifies himself, he's got a similar issue because he's not quite in one box or the other being from texas. so he's got a moment. you know, honestly, if i'm looking at this, i'm thinking, marianne williamson? he's going to be so happy on that first night because he is really -- i mean, she would be -- she's so progressive and different. she's the one who stands out. plus, you know, she has the opportunity to come across as a little more presidential than some people online have been viewing her as. >> well, if all on tuesday, let say that elizabeth warren ends up on tuesday. you know, these are all large number are moderates who are going to make the case that only

a moderate can beat donald trump. you're not where -- the liberals are not where the party is. and elizabeth warren has an opportunity, i think, to say, i can beat him and you want to attack me? come at me and i will tell you how my policies are good for the american people. so if she is on that stage with them, she can really differentiate. >> or if she's on the stage with the former vice president. if you get this -- >> well, there you go. >> if you get this, warren and biden, because she is ascending right now. she is the candidate that's been slow and steady, but she has ascended to the national poll, she ascend to the state polls. senator harris in the last day -- the bankruptcy issue. >> right, right. >> harris used the opportunity to go up against vice president biden to help herself. she has been moving even faster. if she got that opportunity, that would be something to watch. >> is this the first time you used this mobile mini map? i like it. it's cool. >> i use it sometimes during the day. it's the first primetime appearance. >> i like it.

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and welcome back. coming up to it, the final draw for the cnn democratic presidential debate, 16 of the 20 candidates know which night they'll be on the stage in detroit. now here on the lineups so far. on tuesday, july 30th, it is pete buttigieg, amy klobuchar, marianne wilson, john hickenlooper, tim ryan and steve bullock will go head to head in detroit. one night later wednesday, july 31st, julio castro, andrew yang, tulsi gabbard, michael bennet and bill de blasio will share the stage. david chalian joins us right now. what do you think the candidates would like to see happens next? >> the stakes are high in this moment. we already discussed debates do matter. we know that. but there are certain matchups here that the candidates are eager to have with one another more than others. for instance, joe biden, who does not want a repeat

performance of what happened in miami, that would be a real crushing moment and he is looking to come out of the gate stronger and he wants to draw a contrast with bernie sanders. i am sure that would be his ideal pick tonight to go up against bernie sanders, have this health care fight they've been having for a week in front of the whole country and try to resolve this ideological battle inside the party. harris and warren, the two candidates who are sort of on the rise here, they're looking to extend their moments. they're looking to dig in from some of the support of sanders and biden. i think they would be happy to take on either of those folks on the stage night. you got to remember, these four that are remaining, these are the top contenders in the race. so this is where it's really going to matter for them. these final four, these top polling candidates, who they match up with. >> all right. let's get the final draw. back to wolf. >> all right, anderson. we're down to the final draw. we've been grouping the final candidates based on recent polling. these are some of the biggest names in the race.

joe biden, kamala harris, bernie sanders and elizabeth warren are moments away from finding out when they will be debating in this round. this will go a long way in determining the dynamics of the two debates. let's go to ana cabrera. she has the final draw. >> wolf, by now our viewers know the drill. i want to walk you through it one more time. again, this is the final draw. and we have four candidates left. joe biden, kamala harris, bernie sanders and elizabeth warren arranged here in alphabetical order. i also have four date cards, two for july 30th on tuesday and two for wednesday, july 31st. let's start with the name cards of the presidential candidates and put them in the box. again, i'm going to give these a good mix, this final four chosen because of the polling position currently. and a reminder, full transparency, you can watch the camera above me overhead. also worth noting, these final four are four of the top five fund-raisers in the last quarter. put them in the box, give them a good mix.

three sitting senators and a former vice president are about to learn their debate nights. grab the debate night cards. again, come over here, give those a nice little shuffle. okay, let's drop those into the debate night bin. mix them up. let's find out who our first candidate is in our final draw. massachusetts senator elizabeth warren. she's been in the senate now since 2013. also former harvard law professor. she will be debating on tuesday, july 30th. the first night. one down, three to go. our second candidate and our final draw is california senator kamala harris.

she's been serving now since 2017 in the senate. previously was the attorney general of the state of california. she will be debating on wednesday, july 31st. two down, two to go. our next candidate in our final draw is the vice president joe biden. served alongside barack obama in the white house for eight years. before that he was in the senate for over 30 years serving for the state of delaware. he will be debating on the second night, wednesday, july 31st. so we'll have another matchup with kamala harris and joe biden. that leaves our final candidate of the night, senator bernie sanders from vermont as the runner-up of the democratic primary to hillary clinton in 2016, has been in the senate now since 2007 and been in washington since 1991.

he will be debating on tuesday, july 30th against elizabeth warren. the final draw is now finished. let's go back to wolf. >> the roster, ana, is now set for cnn's two-night presidential debate event in detroit. so let's review who is sharing a stage. these ten candidates will face off the first night, tuesday, july 30th. and they are bernie sanders. elizabeth warren. they will join pete buttigieg, beto o'rourke, amy klobuchar, marianne williamson, john delaney, john hickenlooper, tim ryan and steve bullock. on the second night, wednesday, july 31st, joe biden and kamala harris will join julian castro, andrew yang, cory booker, jay inslee, tulsi gabbard, michael bennet and bill de blasio. there's one more piece of this puzzle.

that's the last to be decided. coming up we're going to reveal how the candidates will be positioned on stage each night. right now back to anderson. >> all right, wolf, thanks very much. john king, david chalian was talking tuesday night, the first night being moderate night. not so much now. >> not so much, but it does add to the calculation. is it these two, warren and sanders against the moderates, or just because they're sharing these two, senator warren are close friends -- close partners on many of the issues. >> are they actually close friends? >> yes, they are. some politicians say they're friends. they are actually close. they're holding 30% of the democratic vote. do they defend medicare for all and other things against john delaney? john delaney says it's a bad idea. john hickenlooper says it's a bad idea. tim ryan says i'm not sure we can afford it, although he's more with them than not. steve bullock says it's a bad idea. amy klobuchar says it's a bad idea. is it these two against them? or do we get fireworks between these two? this to me is the unanswered question. at some point just like kamala harris decided, i'm friends with

joe biden, i like joe biden, i was very close friends with his son beau biden. the only way she keeps her momentum going is to go through him. does she do that now or decide right now is the time to defend the progressives, partner with him to make the case against them a progressive can win? is that the strategy this time, or is it fireworks between the two of them? and i'm talking about in the context of what does senator warren think. what does senator sanders think? senator sanders is struggling. so he's in the middle of the pack. he has an enormous fund-raising pack. he has a loyal group of supporters. he can be in this to the end. if you look at him vis-a-vis 2016, he's in the teens. so does he decide she is a threat? she is a threat. does he decide to air it in the debate, that's my question. >> to add to tuesday, there are a couple people on the stage and they are all going to want to differentiate themselves to the degree because it's make or break for somebody like a steve bullock or a tim ryan or a hickenlooper. what they're going to try and do is go after warren or bernie and say, look, we are -- here's what

i believe and you don't represent the party. so to your point, these other people could play into this. >> yes. >> and try and score against these two, and then they could team up together and put off that fight until another day. but we don't know. >> it's also worth noting in this, the most diverse field, the democratic party has ever had, all the first night are white candidates and the racial diversity is entirely in the second night, which just changes the dynamic, especially because obviously race has been a front and center issue in america this week. it has been in this campaign. it is an issue that is sort of coursing through this democratic primary, and it's just interesting, of course, random draw that it ended up that way with all white candidates on one night and -- >> there are ways to differentiate themselves that is not necessarily about medicare for all. i think that where elizabeth warren and bernie sanders really could come across as quite

different candidates is when you're talking about race, when you're talking about those issues, senator warren has been historically considerably more comfortable with them than senator sanders has been. so if they both have a question like that, i think that could be a real opportunity for her to differentiate. >> in that particular vein, she, elizabeth warren does not have as long of a record as bernie sanders does, right? she's going to go back. she has to decide, does she want to go after him on his vote on giving immunity to gun manufacturers, for example? does she want to go after him on his opposition, you know, potential opposition to reparations, et cetera? so that, that is interesting because he doesn't have as much to go after her. >> let's also look at wednesday night. the rematch between biden and harris -- >> listen, this is going to be the thriller in manila. whatever it is. we have a big rematch now. both of these candidates have a lot on the line. kamala harris just knocked this guy on his seat. and the question is -- people say, listen, she got a lot out of it.

there's a quiet concern, though. people saying maybe she's too mean, maybe she's too harsh. he's got to make a calculation, do i keep doing that. he, on the other hand, has to show some spine. they're going to be calculating, how tough, how mean. but if -- but if he gets too tough then he overdid it -- >> van -- >> they've got a big fight. >> she's going to be helped by cory booker, though. don't forget this is the first time cory booker has been on the stage with joe biden after he came out, he was so critical of biden after biden talked about the segregationists that he worked with in the united states senate. >> right. >> and i think -- we'll see if booker goes after biden. >> i'm sorry. >> no, that will be, that will be a possibility. >> i think we also ought to allow for the fact that even though these matchups are important, and i appreciate the fight night analogies, they all have imperative strategically -- >> totally. >> elizabeth warren is doing very, very well, but she's doing well with college-educated

voters, very liberal voters and young voters. she hasn't broken through with white working class voters and her message is geared that way. she needs to find -- i think she would have liked to been in the debate with biden to have that discussion about the bankruptcy bill to burnish her vote there. kamala harris did very well in defining herself as a fighter in that moment. it was a very dramatic moment. her -- of all the top contenders, i think her message is least fleshed out, and so beyond having biden on that platform she needs to use that team to tell people exactly what this candidacy is about. >> for our viewers, how high the stakes are, not to use that cliche yet again, how many of these 20 will likely go on to the next debate? >> well, on night two, if you start with night two and you put night two up, only vice president biden -- get this to go here -- vice president biden and senator harris, they're the only two who have qualified so far. so for the second debate you need to be 2% in four qualifying

polls and have 130,000 unique donors. if your fund-raising -- money follows momentum. so if you're them, you're thinking, okay, am i going to be there in september? i have to do something here, which means they're your targets. that's the best way to make news and the best way to get headway is to go after them. that's night two. so let's clear this out and look at night one. again, of these candidates who are up on night one, senator sanders is in round three, elizabeth warren is in and mayor buttigieg is and congressman o'rourke is. you have more candidates who have already qualified for the next round. again, you have big names here. senator klobuchar. governor bullock, this is his first debate. he's trying to make a name for himself. can he make the outside argument i want a trump state? can he make it to september? is part of the argument here. i would say this. i have a question in the second round of debates here about mayor buttigieg in the sense that he was the early surprise of this field. he was the guy who shot up. he blocked beto o'rourke from the new interesting next generational face lane. the guy from middle america, he's plateaued. he's had the police shooting issue back home. he's raised a ton of money.

he's built a pretty good organization so far and he's proven he's got the fund-raising resources. where is his play? where is his play for who am i in this race and can he -- he's in the top five. this has been a five-candidate race, even though there's 24, 20 qualified for the debates. the leader, we've had a consistent five at the top of the polls, he's at the bought president obama of those five. he's plateaued. he needs a moment. what will it be? >> the debate fireworks may depend on which candidates are closest to one another. their physical location often matters in these face-to-face match offs. we'll reveal their podium positions next. . . .

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the draw is complete. the lineup for the cnn presidential debates are set. i want to go to wolf blitzer.

wolf? >> here's how they will be each night based on the ranks and the polls. we'll show you the podium order, the candidates with the highest polling numbers will be positioned in the center of the stage. here the candidates will be debating tuesday, july 30th at 8:00 p.m. eastern. on the left side of the screen. mary ann williamson, tim ryan, amy klobuchar. in the center part of your screen, pete buttigieg, elizabeth warren, bernie sanders, beto o'rouke. on the left side john hickenlooper, john delaney and steve bullock. those are the podium positions for the night of tuesday, july 30th. here's the candidates will be debating wednesday, july 31st. let's go to the left side of the screen. you can michael ben net, kirsten gillibrand, julian castro. center part of the screen, cory booker, joe biden, kamala harris, andrew yang, and on the right part of the screen, tulsi

gabbard, jay inslee and bill de blasio. once again the podium positions for wednesday, july the 31st. >> so booker, biden, harris, discuss. >> i would see joe biden in between backer and harris. the two that were most aggressively complaining about his remarks about the segregationists. cory booker is what launched that after joe biden made those remarks and kamala harris followed through. there's joe biden standing right between the two that actually created a real problem for joe biden and had to respond to that. >> so if are you in joe biden's camp tonight and you're planning over the next two weeks, what is your, i mean, the pundits over here. >> in full disclosure, i helped on the first debate. i'm not helping on this because it is cnn sponsored and i don't want there to be a conflict. however, i think, you know, joe biden came out and did a full

apology with respect to anything that he said that hurt him, and it is another opportunity for him to clarify his position. he is probably hoping this issue comes up. my guess is they're probably preparing him for a nice fulsome response. here's one thing that that second night is. are they on the second night? yeah. the second night. you have kirsten gillibrand and kamala harris that could both raise issues of choice which is another issue that joe biden has been dealing with in terms of the hyde amendment and anita hill. so i think you'll see some more female issues. femaleled issues. >> does joe biden need another opportunity to say i'm sorry about something? >> i don't think he needs one. >> as long as we have you here, and you were involved before, what happened? that was an obvious question that was coming. why wasn't he prepared for that? >> i'm not at liberty to talk about what happened behind the scenes.

>> i thought i would give it a whirl. >> biden is now like, the pinata. he's standing there with two people next to him that listen. even if kamala doesn't go after him aggressively, she will be prepared to counterpunch and defend. if you're joe biden, did you real want to be back on stage with kamala harris? he probably didn't. cory booker probably did because he has a chance to press his case. >> don't you think he has an opportunity to say, okay, we can talk about this. the real person we need to be talking about in terms of race is donald trump? >> and that's what he should do. >> aside from these moments of friction that i think we're anticipating with joe biden, his debate performance in the first debate was really pretty lackluster. i remember sitting there in the opening moments of kamala harris going after him, if this man weren't the front-runner we wouldn't be paying any attention to him at all right now. so i think there is an opportunity for him to come out

and redefine himself. he did not get a chance. >> there is so much material. >> forget substance of the first debate. the calling card of joe biden is i'm the grown-up who can beat trumpet these other people are wonderful, great, they're not ready to go up against trump. there he is in the middle. she's going to come at him again. she's in trouble. she'll have to find a way to come after him. you know the mayor will come after him saying he's part of the old guard in washington. that's not what we know. other people here have the same calculations. if he has another disappointing performance, no matter what it is about. no mooerl r matter what it's about, the whole calling scarred i'm guy to get trump. >> the whole point is that you have to in this 30-second or 60-second response, get your answer up and then go on the attack hopefully against trump. and you're in michigan. in michigan, because of the affordable care act being attacked, you'll see double the number of uninsured people. it is a prime place to talk about issues that the middle class care about. >> i'm not quoting marianne

williamson, but one of the things that she has said, and david you said something similar, this in the end is not going to be about plans. this won't be won on who has the best plans. donald trump didn't win because he had the best plan. there are other larger issues at stake and that's what a lot of voters are looking at. style >> i said before the first debate, it is more important now. more than anything that joe biden says, how does he look? does he seem engaged? does he seem like he's up to it? that's what really hurt him. i think after that last debate there were a lot of concerns about the substance of his answer, but he also looked a beat behind and that's a real question. >> night one. let's talk about it. >> night one is fascinating. in the middle, senator sanders whom we saw in the last campaign. he's there. senator warren in the middle. the progressives have been arguing. hillary clinton was wrong. the go slow pragmatic approach does not work, and by extension

in this campaign, joe biden is wrong. the fix obamacare approach is not the way to go. we have to go medicare for all. we can sell it. free college. other progressive ideas, we can sell all these things in one election. that's what they believe. the people who believe we can change the democratic party, go big, go bold in center stage on night one. a lot of people on the stage disagree with it. they'll get incoming. no question. they'll get incoming from here, from here, saying it's too much. we cannot sell it to the country. walter mondale lost 49, michael dukakis lost 40. they were not that liberal. why are we doing this? this will be a fascinating fight for the progress i was. >> pete buttigieg will be happy standing next to bernie sanders because his is a new message. >> i think in the argument between sanders and warren is a real argument about who is best able to take on donald trump. and people will be judging them by that measures and we know that they are both fighters. we knobe