this is "gps" the global public square. welcome to you in the united states and around the world i'm fareed zakaria. we'll start today's show with iran. the islamic republic's foreign minister was in new york for u.n. meetings this week. he sat down for an interview about the sky high tensions between his country and america. does he believe donald trump wants war? >> i think he doesn't want war with iran but that's not what the people around him are

interested in. >> oval office holders, how can they beat the country's president? i suggest they listen, he just beat his nation's populace in a landslide. i will have an exclusive interview with the new prime minister. also, from swords to rifles from machine guns to nukes, the world is constantly adjusting to new ways of war. set rules of the road for cyber war. former counterterrorism chief richard clark says it needs to happen soon. but first, here is my take. you often hear in these polarized times republicans and democrats have deadlocked on almost everything but the real scandal is what both sides agree

on. the best example of this is the defense budget. last week, the democratic house filled with radicals according to the republicans voted to appropriate $733 billion for 2020 defense spending. the republicans outrage because they along with president trump want that number to be $750 billion. in other words, on the largest item of discretionary spending in the federal budget, accounting for more than half the total, democrats and republicans are divided by 2.3%. that is a cancerous consensus today. america's defense budget is out of control lacking strategy cow her rans a wasteful and eternally expanding. $14,000 toilet seat coverers and $100,000 cups are par for the course. last year, a quarter century of resisting, the pentagon finally

subjected itself to an audit which in true pentagon style cost $400 million. most of its agencies, army, navy, air force, marines failed. the then deputy defense secretary patrick shanahan admitted we never expected to pass. donald trump says he's a savvy businessman, yet his attitude towards the pentagon is that of an parent, we love and need our military and gave them everything and more he tweeted. far from bringing defense spending into a system, he's simply open the piggy bank while at the same time trying to slash spending on almost every other government agency. the much deeper danger, however, is spotlighted by jessica tuck m. she points out we think about defense budgets in a fundamentally erroneous way tieing it to gdp but the budget should be related to the threats

the country faces, not the size of the economy. if a country's gdp grows by 30% she writes, it has no reason to spend 30% more to the military to the contrary unless threats worsen, you expect over time defense spending is a percentage of a growing economy should decline. the united states faces a world influx to be sure but surely not a more dangerous world enduring the cold wore. it now spends more than the next ten countries in the world put together, six are close allies like britain and france and the real threats of the future, cyber war space attacks require different strategies and spending and yet, washington keeps spending billions and billions on aircraft carriers and tanks. in the case of the latter, the army tried to get congress to stop spending on new ones and has more than 6,000 tanks, no luck. there are even more fund mental questions about the structure of the pentagon.

why do we have an air force if the army, navy and marines each has its own air force? why does every service have its own representative to lobby for spend income congress. dwight eisenhower had a skepticism about government. he was the kind of seasoned general who understood the peace game from a combination of military strength and diplomatic engageme engagement. that was why in his farewell address, he spoke about the dangers of the military industrial complex. 60 years later, it looks like one of the most warnings any president has made. for me read my washington post column this week and let's get started. ♪ ♪ tensions between iran and the united states are at the

highest level since president trump pulled out of the 2015 nuclear deal and reimposed sanctions. last month, iran shut down an american drone prompting trump toretaliation but impose a fresh set of sanctions on iran's leaders. it was in this highly charged atmosphere he arrived in new york last sunday for u.n. meetings. last weekend, the staff of iran's u.n. mission and minister were all put under severe movement restrictions by the united states government. he is not allowed to come to cnn studios, so we met on wednesday before the latest news at the iranian ambassador's residence. >> pleasure to have you on again. >> good to be back. >> you know a lot of people think that the iranian government is trying to raise tensions in the persian gulf by

interjecting tankers, in a sense signaling it could in various ways block the floor of oil from the straights of hormuz. >> we are in the persian golf. we have 1500 miles of coastline within the gulf. we control the straight of horm hormuz. it is -- these waters are our lifeline. so their security is of paramount importance for iran. throughout history, iran has provided security in these waters. the united states is intervening in order to make these waters insecure for iran. you cannot make these waters insecure for one country and secure for others. >> do you believe that as a result of this, whoever is to blame, you could have an escalation which would result in a military incident? >> in such a smoall body of water, if you have so many

foreign vessels, i mean, accidents will happen. do you remember 1988 when a u.s. warship in deep waters shot down an iranian civil airliner killing 290 passengers. so accidents, even catastrophes can happen. >> is there a possibility of war? >> well, you cannot simply disregard a possibility of a disaster but we all need to work in order to avoid one. there is a war going on right now. it's an economic war. an economic war against iran targets civilian population and president trump is on the record saying that he is not engaged in military war but an economic war. that's noting to be proud of because in a military

confrontation, civilians may become collateral damage and economic war, civilians are the primary targets. >> were you surprised by the ability of the united states to essentially stop you from engaging in any international economic activity from even selling your oil on international markets, this one country? >> well, it is regrettable not just for iran but for the international community that the united states can in fact bully important players in international markets to obey its rules against both international law and against their own interest. it is certainly regrettable. we continue to set our ways and you will find -- >> production is way down. >> it is way down but we'll find ways to mend the situation as you have seen our currency market stabilized now after a year of fluctuation and going --

i mean, it's improving and it means that we will continue to face these difficulties with pride and with prudence. >> a lot of people who believe that your -- the noose is around your neck and the united states has you in a situation and the economy declined and shrunk by five or 6% and currency has gone down. are you cornered? >> no. i think the united states has founded necessary because of its own mistakes to put excessive emphasis on its economic might to weaponize the u.s. dollar and as any analyst would tell you in the media and long-term this is

bound to have a negative impact on the predominance of u.s. dollar in the global economy. you see now that many countries including u.s. allies are moving away from dollar using their own national currencies. last year, iran and turkey used their national currencies in 35% of their trade. others are doing the same. china and russia decided to put aside dollar in the national by lateral endeavors. you now have a non-dollar denomination oil market in shanghai. these are realities of the day because of the excessive use and weaponization of dollars so at the end of the day, because of u.s. desperation of this obsession with iran they want to put aside this nuclear deed negotiated, they are using

overusing their dollar strength and at the end of the day, it would cost them. >> do you think that you will be able to sell oil to china and india in the next few months? >> well continue 'll continue t. to who and how is going to be a state secret because otherwise, u.s. will go and prevent us from doing that. but we will continue to sell oil. the international oil markets cannot survive without our oil. >> secretary pompeo has restricted tightly your movement and actually the movement of iranian embassy staff even. he says he doesn't want to give a platform to you to spew iranian propaganda. why should he not get a chance to speak on iranian tv? will you hear secretary pompeo can go on iranian tv? >> i'm grateful for you to come to our residence to do the interview instead of me coming to your studio.

that's a burden on you and not on me. i'm very happy to be here with you. i think the restrictions that have been put on our staff, not on me, remember, i come here for a few days, three buildings is usual what i stay in here. our mission and the united nations. i don't have any other business here in new york. i don't come here for sightseeing. i've done enough during my student days here in the united states so i don't need to do sightseeing but the restrictions they have put on staff of our mission are inhuman. the children cannot go to school. these are unacceptable. they are limited to an undiplomatic neighborhood for residents. this is unheard of. these are against it. the headquarters agreement and united states agreed to hold -- to have the honor of hosting the u.n. headquarters. it comes with some commitments and obligations but as far as

secretary pompeo's appearance on iranian television is concerned, he's been rejecting requests for interviews by iranian journalists and i'm sure he will find enough requests from him, from iranian tv and other iranian media and if he decides to accept them on the same terms that i accept appearing on american media, i'm sure he get a chance. >> more with zarif in a moment. when we come back, i asked whether he thinks donald trump wants war or regime change. johnson & johnson is a baby company.

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we're back more of my intervi interview. donald trump says he doesn't want war with iran. he also says most recently he does not want regime change. do you believe him? >> i think he doesn't want war with iran. i think he doesn't care about who rules iran. he doesn't want regime change, but that's not what the people around him are interested in, and i think it is important for president trump to look at the people around him. we take him at his word, that he doesn't want war. he doesn't want regime change but i can assure him that there are a few people around him who are on the record saying that they want war and regime change. >> i've been told that president trump sent a letter to the supreme leader of iran in which

he essentially offered to restart negotiations. >> well, president trump did not send the letter but prime minister abe brought his message, verbal message and supreme leader very carefully. the problem is we cannot start negotiating with every new american administration. any country will deed with another country based on the facts representatives represent their countries. we just had an election here in the united states. we didn't have a revolution. you didn't have a revolution here in the u.s. president trump succeeded president obama. administrations have executive agreements, they have treaties but have all sorts of agreements that continue to be binding on the country. you cannot simply say i don't like the previous administration and i want to renegotiate

evening they did. that may be an internal issue for you but for us, we spent several years, hours, days, weeks, months, nights, one of negotiating sessions that we had with secretary kerry started at 9:00 in the evening and ended without a pause at 6:00 the following morning. this is not something to renegotiate. now if president trump says that this is -- this was not a treaty, this was just an executive agreement, these are domestic issues. but he has violated enough treaties. do you remember inf? do you remember nafta? remember many others. >> let me propose a win, win. he has to win something, too. and the win would be that you agree to go back to the negotiating table, there is a suspension of these new sanctions, the u.s. suspends while you talk but you agree to

talk about the nuclear deal ballistic missiles and iran's regional activities. >> well, first of all, we did not need the negotiating table. we are at the negotiating table. the united states left the negotiating table so if they put sanctions aside, they can come back to the negotiating table and they can start discussing with us at the negotiating table we have always discussed the nuclear issue. how to implement the agreement that we have. so they are more than welcome to do that. on missiles and regional issues, we have not seen the seriousness of the united states in implementing what they already agreed to. we have to see the seriousness of the united states. we are not going to negotiate about our defense. it's a historical emotional attachment for our people. our people went through eight years of war when they were being targeted, when they were

being showered with missiles and bombs and even chemical weapons and nobody gave us the minimum means of defense. everybody from the soviets who gave the iraqis midair planes to the americans that gave them recognizance to the french who gave them missiles to the brits who gave them tanks to the germans who gave them chemical weapons. everybody helped them. nobody even allowed us to buy a single missile to defend ourselves. so it's impossible to tell iranian people that while the united states is selling $87 billion worth of military equipment, why saudi arabia is buying $87 billion worth of military equipment and the united states is selling over $50 billion worth to the region to the persian gulf every year they expect us to abandon our only and most important means of defense. >> let me ask you, we don't have

much time. what is the win for president trump? you says the on way that you're going to get out of this is a win, win, not a lose, lose. how do you give president trump a win? >> well, president trump can in fact find a mechanism to have international peace and security through agreement, through understanding rather than through confrontation. he made the very prudent decision not to start a war by deciding not to attack iran in retaliation because he knew that he -- we would have responded and then as i said, you can start the war but you cannot end it. that was a very prudent decision and he can take credit for it. he can take credit for restoring a good treaty that made both iran and the united states and the rest of the world safer. he can also take credit for the fact that he has been able to

make sure that international agreements are abided by. these are all important wins for president trump and for the united states and i'm sure this is going to be a very important legacy for him. >> but that sounds like there is going to be a long cold war right now. >> well, we have been under pressure from the united states for 40 years. that's not new for us. we've been to safeguard our interest to safeguard our people in spite of that. but what you -- the united states you see prevented us from getting means of defense, they presented us from getting fuel for our -- for a u.s. build nuclear reactor, we produced a few ourselves. they prevent us from making the money that is needed by selling our oil in order to feed our

population to buy medicine for our population. we'll find ways of circumventing it. they should not come and complain afterwards. i think these are not our preferences. the people of iran prefer to have engagement but if the united states wants to prevent us from engagement, we will not simply accept to either submit to the will of a foreign power or to simply allow our people to suffer. we will find ways around it and the united states will accept the consequences. >> foreign minister, pleasure to have you on. >> good to have you at our home. next on "gps" is it possible for the world's powers to agree to a new arm's agreement but this time for cyber war? that's what richard clark says must happen when we come back. 's proven better on pain than tylenol extra strength. and last longer with fewer pills. so why am i still thinking about this?

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did you know russia has the know how how to disrupt the china grade and mess with america's gas line pipe system. both are true according to the heads of all 17 u.s. intelligence agencies. let's not forget russia's attacks on the elections in 2016 or that major american corporations are hacked all the time now. the question is what can citizens corporations and the

government do to protect against all this? it is one of the questions of our time and it is asked in a terrific new book the fifth domain defending our country, our companies and ourselves in the age of cyber threats clark was the white house count counterterrorism coordinator under presidnt clinton and george w. bush. what is the worst ca-case scena. that is possible. >> it is possible according to the head of u.s. intelligence as you said. the russians are in our power grid. chinese are in our natural gas pipelines but since that announcement, the white house intentionally leaked we're in the russian power grid so this creates a crisis stability situation in the period of tensions, there is an incentive to go first. and there is a belief that cyber

war is okay because nobody guys. it's not lethal so we can do it. you saw that a few weeks ago when trump decided i don't want to kill anybody in iran by bombing in retaliation. i'll do a cyber attack. the problem is at some point cyber attacks become so painful that people hit out with conventional attacks. the raisraelis did that with a cyber facility attacking sites and got fed up with it and bombed it. so the notion cyber can say if we in the united states got hit badly enough for the cyber attack, we'll respond with conventional forces. >> and what do you think can you to be about it? >> it would be nice to have arms control. you know, i'm old enough to have participated in arms control in weapons in europe and when we

started, people said oh, you can't get there from here. it's too hard. the russians will never agree. you'll never be able to come up with the verification measures. i hear all of that now for cyber. but yeah, it takes awhile and yeah, we don't know the solutions right now but we have to begin the process and the trump administration has eliminated the people in the state department who are doing that. the trump administration eliminated the position in the white house that was thinking about that. >> but the argument people would make is unlike arms control and unlike nuclear weapons, the problem here is you can get attacked, you cannot know where it came from, they can plausibly deny it. the damage is sort of difficult. the nuclear weapons had a kind of simple symmetry that allowed you to say if you send a new clear weapon our way, we'll send one your way. >> i hear the attribution problem which is what it's called is so hard . if you go to the justice department website, you'll see

the names and photographs of the chinese, russian, north korean and iranian military officers who are doing the hacking. we know who they are. an essay is very good at thnsa . we know who they are and got pictures. >> presumably there would be some virtue in everyone getting involve in this conversation, the russians, even the -- so you would bring iran, north korea, everyone to the table. >> as the second step. the first step i would get a community of like-minded nations together basically the europeans and our asian allies and say look, you're all being attacked, too. you're all vulnerable, too. let's agree on international norms of behavior. as we have in the real world. don't bomb hospitals. the russians do home hospitals in syria as you know but norms help. so let's start by getting our friends together and agreeing on dos and don'ts of cyber war and then invite everybody to the

table. >> what would you do about the russian hacking potential hacking of the next u.s. electi election? >> first of all, i'd pass the senator widen bill which is already a bill similarly to what passed the house to give the 4,000 counties and 50 states in the u.s. the money they need to begin to secure their election infrastructure. mitch mcconnell, the republican leader in the senate is blocking that bill and you have wonder why. even ma r crco rubio are in fav. perhaps the reason mitch mcconnell is okay with the russians hacking our elections doesn't do anything really to stop it is he thinks the russians will again hack in the republican's favor. >> wow. richard clarke, pleasure to have you. the new greek prime minister has been in office for less than two weeks but already speaking out exclusively to me. america's presidential

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an opinion piece in the washington post asked the question has greece found the formula for defeating populism? it's possible that it has. you see after almost five years in power, greece's left wing

populace was roundly defeated in elections early this month. the victor, a decidedly unp unpopulace former banker that went to harvard. monday will mark two weeks he's been in office. the prime minister joins me now exclusively. congratulations prime minister. >> thank you very much. thank you. >> so when you decided to run for office and to lead the party, you were confronting a situation where greece had seemed to have sure cocome to populism on the left and right. how did you see the situation and why did you choose the strategy you chose? >> my strategy was very, very clear. i was convinced that you can never beat the populace by playing their own game. my bet was at some point the

greek people would create for serious policy oriented, result oriented policies and this is what we deliver to the greek people so by judging by our results, the strategy was successful. >> you defeated and people get tired of them but what was also striking about the election is the right-wing populace, the golden dawn collapsed. why do you think that happened. >> i think fareed after ten years of crisis, greek people had enough with politics of anger, of rage, of pointless nationalism. in a sense, after experimenting with populism, i think the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction. we managed to defeat the right by coming up with an agenda that's patriotic but certainly not nation lial and focussing o

the problems that people really care about, issues that have to do with taxation, over taxation, issues that have to deal with lack of investment and improving the efficiency of the private sector. in a sense, this was a vote that obviously was -- in my mind was probably more rational than emotional but it was the expected backlash after four years of a very incompetent government being in power. >> you said you decided it wasn't worth playing the p popula populace game, which means you don't want to bander to the same issues and voices that populism was doing. now in the united states in europe, there are -- there is this debate about whether center parties should try to recognize, you know, in this case here, its concerns over immigration and things like that. i realize there is a slightly different issue but in general, do you think that, you know, one

has to recognize there is this wave of populism and, you know, in much of the western world it is about immigration and so you -- did you try to show you were tough on some of the issues that seemed to have fueled populism? >> well, fareed, a lot of the grievances upon which the populace feed are very real and have to be recognized. usually the answers offered by populace are not the correct ones, very similplistic and don address the problems. in greece we went through a significant immigration crisis in 2015 more than a million people came through greece and most of them understandended up europe. immigration is an issue and we have solutions that we have proposed are very reasonable, of course, we need to monitor our borders better but we also need to change our asylum rules and we need to make sure that we use european funding in a more

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the attack on the european union's program, the bailout of the program in greece was not popular. were you seen as proeuropean and did that not hurt you? >> well, i am a committed european and acknowledge a lot of mistakes were made in implementing the programs in greece by our european partners. at the same time, i always believe that attacking europe without any real justification and placing blame on europe was doing great in justice to the european experiment. we should not forget overall the european integration process has been very successful as far as my country is concerned. we have greatly benefitted from our participation in the european union, and from our

participation in the eurozone. there are things within europe that need to change. attacking europe as a whole or fighting for the what we have achieved is not going to do us much good and an inner connected world needs to be united in order to punch above its weight. >> one of the things that have always been struck by is when you look at european attitudes towards the united states, the country that is often ends up being the most anti american again by surveys and things has been greece. now you were regarded during the campaign as clearly kind of an american. in fact, you were attacked on proamerican, harvard degree banker. how come it didn't hurt you to be seen as proamerican? >> well, i think these attitudes have changed. you're right to point out 10, 20 years ago greece's opinion was

quite anti american. i don't think this is the case any longer. one of the good things that the government did was not to change our policies of strategy partnership with the united states. american relations are at an excellent state. it's not a competitive relationship in terms with the rest of europe and it is a relationship that can be further strengthened as far as my personal background is concerned. i'm quite proud about my c.v. i'm considered to be a draw back in my political career but certainly attitudes in greece have changed and public opinion is no longer anti american as it was maybe 20 or 30 year ace s a >> how are you going to navigate relations with donald trump in all of most of europe quite unpopular. >> i've had a chance to have a quick chat. i had a longer chat with vice president pence a short chat

with president trump and again, i look at fundamentals of the u.s. relationships and have very solid and in that sense i'm eager to work with president trump to further improve the quality of our relationship and there is much more we can do especially on the economic front. one of my main goals is to completely change the investment community and turn grease into an attractive investment destination and clearly more room to attract more u.s. capital in foreign investments in greece. >> prime minister, congratulations again and thank you so much.. >> prime minister again thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> and we will be back. and here's another reason to join. bring in your discount, and we'll match it. that's right. t-mobile will match your discount.

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while some workers race to deliver the millions of products on amazon prime day, others took the opportunity to strike overworker conditions, proclaiming, we're humans not pro boughts. the protesters are human, the

robots are coming. amazon added 1,000 over the last year according to a study by oxford economis. just in the last two decades, the number of robots used around the world tripled to 2 tony 25 million. it brings me to my question, how many robots will be in the work force by 2030? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million? or 50 million? stay tuned. we'll tell you the correct answer. my book of the week is "the guarded gate" two generations that kept yous, italian and european immigrants out of america. the title says it all. the book is a gripping accoun of a dark wave in american history, yes, it does bring to mind some of the forces that play in america right now. the answer to my gps challenge this week is c, 20 million

robots will be in use by 2030 with some 14 million in china alone, according to oxford economic, while many have heralded the end of an era in china, actually the world's great workshop looks forward to cement its position as the leading global manufacturer. internationally this trajectory will cost some 20 million people their manufacturing jobs, even as it increases productivity and economic growth. what's behind the shift? robots are rapidly becoming cheaper than humans and their capabilities are improving exponentially not to mention robots don't protest. at least not yet. thanks to all of you for being a part of my program this week. i will see you next week. bend at the waist! i'm tryin'! keep it up. you'll get there. whoa-hoa-hoa! 30 grams of protein, and one gram of sugar. ensure max protein.

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. hey, i'm brian stelter, welcome to "reliable sources." it's not easy to look at the story behind the story. how the news gets made and all of us can make it better. in the immortal words of edward r. murrow, we must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. president trump is trying to confuse everybody. this weekend he is tripling down the attacks on the four congress women. he doesn't think they are capable of loving our country. he is calling them names, questioning their patriotism, reminding everyone of his racist attack of last weekend. if this is what trump wants the next 16