this is "gps," the global public skair. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we'll start today's show with iran. the islamic public's foreign minister was in new york for u.n. meetings this week and he sat down with me for an interview about the sky-high tensions between his country and

america. does javad zarif believe donald trump wants war? >> i think he doesn't want war with iran, but that's not what the people around him are interested in. >> and america's would-be oval office holders all want to know one thing, how can they beat the country's populus president? well, i suggest they listen to, he just beat his nation's populus in a landslide. i will have an exclusive interview with the prime minister of greece. also, from swords to rifles, from machine guns to nukes, the world is constantly adjusting to new ways of war. so when will it set rules of the road for cyber war? former counter terrorism chief richard clarke says it needs to happen soon. but first, here's my take.

you often hear in these polarized times republicans and democrats are dead locked on almost everything. but the real scandal is what both sides agree on, the best example of this is the defense budget. last week the democratic house filled with radicals, according to the republicans, voted to appropriate $733 billion for 2020 defense spending. the republicans are outraged because they, along with president trump, want that number to be $750 billion. in other words, on the largest item of discretionary spending in the federal budget, accounting for more than half the total, democrats and republicans are divided by 2.3%. that is the cancerous consensus in washington today. america's defense budget is out of control, lacking strategic coherence, utterly mismanaged, ruin isly wasteful and yet eternally expanding. $13,000 toilet seat covers and

$1.300 cups, yes cups, are par for the course. last year after a quarter century of resisting, the pentagon finally subjected itself to an audit, which in true pentagon style, cost over $400 million. most of its agencies, army, navy, air force, ma marines failed. the then deputy defense secretary, patrick shanahan, admitted we never expected to pass. donald trump says he's a savvy businessman, yet his attitude towards the pentagon is that of an in dull gentlemen parent. we love and need our military and give them everything and more he tweeted proudly last year. far from bringing defense spending into some rational system, he has simply opened the piggy bank, while at the same time trying to slash spending on almost every other government agency. the much deeper danger, however, is shot lighted by jessica matthews in a sub esh essay in the review.

she points out we think about defense budgets in a fundmentry erroneous way, tying it to gdp. but the defense budget should be related to the threats the country faces, not the size of its economy. if a country's gdp grows by 30%, it has no reason to spend 30% more on its military. to the contrary, unless threats worsen, you would expect that over time defense spending of a growing economy should decline. the united states faces a world in flux to be sure. but surely not a more dangerous world than during the cold war. it now spends more than the next ten countries in the world put together, six of which are close allies like brittain and france. and the real threats of the future, cyber war space attacks, require different strategies in spending, and yet washington keeps spending billions and billions on aircraft carriers and tanks. in the case of the latter, matthews points out the army tried to get congress to stop spending on new ones.

it has more than 6,000 tanks. no luck. there are even more fundamental questions about the structure of the pentagon. why do we have an air force if the army, navy and marines each has its own air force? why does every service have its own representative to lobby for spending in congress? dwight eisenhower was the kind of republican who had a mag matt -- pragmatic accept sichl. he was the kind of general who understood the peace game from a combination of military strength and diplomatic engage. that was why in his fare well address he spoke of the dangers of the military complex. 60 years later it looks like one of the most prophetic warnings any president has ever made. for more, go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this week and let's get started.

tensions between iran and the united states are at the highest level since president trump pulled out of the 2015 nuclear deal and reimposed sanctions. last month, iran shot down an american drone, prompting trump to almost launch retaliatory strikes, but instead to impose a fresh set of sanctions on iran's leaders. it was in this highly-charged atmosphere that the foreign minister javad zarif arrived last sunday for u.n. meetings. last week the u.n. mission and zarif were put under severe movement restrictions by the united states government. he is not allowed to come to cnn studios, so we met on wednesday before the latest news at the iranian ambassador's residence. >> foreign minister zarif, pleasure to have you on good. >> good to be back. >> you know a lot of people think that the iranian

government is trying to raise tensions in the persian gulf by taking tankers and in a sense signaling that it could in various ways block the flow of oil from the strait of hormuz. >> we are in the persian gulf and we have 1,500 miles of coast line. we control the state of hormuz. these waters are our lifeline. so their security is of paramount importance for iran. but throughout history, iran has provided security in these waters. the united states is intervening in order to make these waters insecure for iran. you cannot make these quarters insecure for one country and secure for others. >> do you believe that as a result of this, whoever is to blame, you could have an escalation which would result in

a military incident? >> well, in such a small body of water, if you have so many foreign vessels, i mean accidents will happen. you remember 1988 when a u.s. war ship shot down an iranian civil airliner, killing 290 passengers? so accidents can happen under these circumstances. >> do you think that with tensions being as high as they are, there is a possibility of war? >> well, you cannot simply disregard a possibility of a disaster, but we all need to work in order to avoid one. there is a war going on right now. it's an economic war. an economic war against iran targets civilian population, and president trump is on the record

saying that he's not engaged in military war, but in an economic war. economic war is nothing to be proud of, because in the military confrontation, civilians may become collateral damage. where where as in an economic war civilians are the primary targets. >> were you surprised by the ability of the united states, of the trump administration to essentially stop you from engaging in any international economic activity from even selling your oil on international markets, this one country? >> well, it is regrettable, not just for iran, but for the international community, that the united states can in fact bully important players in international markets to obey its rules against both international law and against their own interests. it is certainly regrettable. we will continue to sell our oil. you will find -- >> but your production is way down? >> it is way down, but we will find ways to mend the situation.

as you have seen, our currency market has stabilized now after a year of fluctuation and it's going -- i mean, it's improving. it means that we will continue to face these difficulties with pride and with prudence. >> there are a lot of people who believe that the noose is around your neck, that the united states has got you in a situation, the economy has declined, the imf has shrunk by 5% or 6%. the currency did go down almost 50% or 60%. are you cornered? >> no. i think the united states has found it necessary because of its own mistakes to put excessive emphasis on its economic might to weaponize the

u.s. dollar. and as any analyst will tell you, in the medium and long-term, this is bound to have a negative impact on the predominance of u.s. dollar in the global economy. you see now that many countries, including u.s. allies, are moving away from dollar, using their own national currencies. last year, iran and turkey used their national currencies in 35% of their trade. others are doing the same. china and russia decided to put aside dollar in the bilateral in devers. you now have a non-dollar denomination oil market in shanghai. these are realities of the day, because of the excessive use and the wep anization of dollar. so at the end of the day, because of u.s. desperation of this obsession with iran that they want to destroy somebody

else's legacy and put aside this nuclear deal that was negotiated, they're using -- over-using the dollar strength and at the end of the day it will cost them. >> do you think that you will be able to sell oil to china and india in the next few months? >> we will continue to sell oil. to who and how is going to be a state secret, because otherwise u.s. will go and prevent us from doing that. but we will continue to sell oil. the international oil market cannot survive without our oil. >> secretary pompeo has restricted tightly your movement and actually the movement of iranian embassy staff even. he says he doesn't want to give a platform to you to sfu iranian propaganda. why should he not get a chance to speak on iranian tv? will you here stay that secretary of state pompeo can go

on iranian tv? >> first of all, i'm grateful to you for coming to our residence to do the interview instead of me coming to your studio. that's a burden on you and not on me. i'm very happy to be here with you. i think the restrictions that have been put on our staff, not on me. i come here for a few days. three buildings is usually what i stay in here, our mission and the united nations. i don't have any other business here in new york. i don't come here for sightseeing. i've done enough sightseeing during my student days here in the united states, so i don't need to do sightseeing. but the restrictions that they have put on staff of our mission are inhuman. the children cannot go to school. these are unacceptable. they are limited to an undiplomatic neighborhood for residents. this is unheard of. these are against the headquarters agreement. the united states agreed to

hold -- to have the honor of hosting the u.n. headquarters. it comes with some commitments, with some obligations. but as far as secretary pompeo's appearance on iranian television is concerned, he has been rejecting requests for interviews by iranian journalists. and i'm sure he will find enough request from him, from iranian tv, from other iranian media, and if he decides to accept them on the same terms that i accept, appearing on american media, i'm sure he'll get a chance. >> more with javad zarif in just a moment. when we come back, i ask him whether he thinks donald trump wants war or regime change.

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but that's not what the people around him are interested in. and i think it is important for president trump to look at the people around him. we take him at his word, that he doesn't want war, he doesn't want regime change. but i can assure him that there are a few people around him who are on the record saying that they want war and regime change. >> i've been told that president trump sent a letter to the supreme leader of iran in which he essentially offered to restart negotiations. >> well, president trump did not send a letter, but prime minister abe brought his message, verbal message, and the supreme leader listened very carefully. the problem is, we cannot start negotiating with every new american administration. any country will deal with another country based on the

fact that governments represent their countries. we just had an election here in the united states. we didn't have a revolution. you didn't have a revolution here in the u.s. president trump succeeded president obama, administrations have executive agreements, they have treaties, but they have all sorts of agreements that continue to be binding on the country. you cannot simply say i don't like the previous administration and i want to renegotiate everything they did. that may be an internal issue for you, but for us, we spent several years, hours, days, weeks, months, nights. one of the negotiating sessions that we had with secretary kerry started at 9:00 in the evening and ended without a pause at 6:00 the following morning. this is not something to renegotiate. now, if president trump says that this was not a treaty, this

was just an executive agreement, these are domestic issues. but he has violated enough treaties. do you remember inf? do you remember nafta? do you remember many other? >> but let me proposal a win-win. you said there has to be a win-win. so he has to win something, too. and the win would be that you agree to go back to the negotiating table, there's a suspension of these sanctions, the u.s. suspends while you talk, but you agree to talk about the nuclear deal, ballistic missiles and iran's regional activities. >> well, first of all, we did not leave the negotiating table. we are at the negotiating table. the united states left the negotiating table, so if they put sanctions aside, they can come back to the negotiating table and they can start discussing with us. at the negotiating table, we have always discussed the nuclear issue, how to implement

the agreement that we have. so they're more than welcome to do that. on missiles and regional issues, we have not seen the seriousness of the united states in implementing what they already agreed to. we have to see the seriousness of the united states. we are not going to negotiate about our defense. it's a historical, emotional attachment for our people. our people went through eight years of war when they were being targeted, when they were being showered with missiles and bombs and even chemical weapons and nobody gave us the minimum means of defense. everybody from the then soviet who gave the iraq he's mig airplanes to the americans who gave them reconnaissance, to the french who gave them missiles, to the brits who gave them chieftan tanks.

the germans gave them chemical weapons. nobody gave us a single missile to defend ourselves. so it's impossible to tell the iranian people that's why the united states is selling $87 billion worth of military equipment while saudi arabia is buying over $87. and the united states is selling $50 billion to the persian gulf every year that they expect us to abandon our only and most important means of defense. >> so let me ask you. we don't have much time. what is the win for president trump? you say there has -- the only way that you're going to get out of this is a win-win, not a lose-lose. how do you give president trump a win? >> well, president trump can, in fact, find a mechanism to have international peace and security through agreement, through understanding, rather than through confrontation. he made a very prudent decision not to start a war by deciding

not to attack iran in retaliation. because he knew that we would have responded and then, as i said, you can start a war, but you cannot end it. so that was a very prudent decision and he can take credit for it. he can take credit for restoring a good treaty that made both iran and united states and the rest of the world safer. he can also take credit for the fact that he has been able to make sure that international agreements are abided by. so these are all important wins for president trump and for the united states. and i'm sure this is going to be a very important legacy for him. >> but that sounds like there's going to be a long cold war right now. >> well, we have been under pressure from the united states for 40 years. that's not new for us.

we've learned to safeguard our interest, to safeguard our people in spite of that. but the united states, you see, prevented us from getting means of defense. we built them ourselves. they prevented us from getting fuel for. we produced a nuclear reactor ourselves. they prevented us from making the money that is needed by selling our oil to feed our population and get medicine for our population. we'll find ways of circumventing it. they should not come and complain afterwards. these are not our preferences. the people of iran prefer to have engagement. but if the united states wants to prevent us from engagement, we will not simply accept to either submit to the will of a foreign power or to simply allow our people to suffer. we will find ways around it.

and the united states should accept the consequences. >> foreign minister, pleasure to have you on. >> good to have you at our home. >> next on "gps," is it possible for the world's powers to agree to a new arms agreement, but this time for cyber war? that's what richard clarke says must happen when we come back. ls are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than 7 and maintained it. oh! under 7? (announcer) and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. oh! up to 12 pounds? (announcer) a two-year study showed that ozempic® does not increase the risk of major cardiovascular events like heart attack, stroke, or death. oh! no increased risk? (announcer) ozempic® should not be the first medicine for treating diabetes, or for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. do not share needles or pens. don't reuse needles. do not take ozempic® if you have a personal

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did you know that russia has the know-how to disrupt the u.s. power grid? were you aware that china could mess with america's natural gas pipe line system? both are true according to probably the best source you could ask for, the heads of all 17 u.s. intelligence agencies. let's not forget russia's attacks on the u.s. elections in 2016 or the major american corporations are hacked all the time now. the question is what can citizens, corporations and the government do to protect against all of this? it is one of the questions of our time and it is asked in a terrific new book "the fifth domain, defending our country, our companies and ourselves in the age of cyber threats". the book was co written by robert nake and richard clarke who joins me now. he was the head coordinator under president clinton and george w. bush. so let me ask you, what is the worst case scenario, which isn't

sort of that outlandish but a kind of cyber war, right? that is possible? >> it's possible according to the head of u.s. intelligence, as you said. the russians are in our power grid. the chinese are in your natural gas pipe lines. but since that announcement, the white house intentionally leaked that we are in the russia power grid. there's an incentive to go first and there's a belief i think in some corners that cyber war is okay because no one dies so we can do it. you saw that a few weeks ago when trump decided i don't want to kill anybody in iran by bombing in retaliation for the downing of the drone. i'll just do a cyberattack. the problem is at some point cyberattacks become so painful that people hit out with conventional attack. the israelis did that two years ago where there was a facility

attacking israeli sites and they got fed up with it and bombed it. so the notion that cyber is stay in cyberspace is wrong. the pentagon's own policy is if we in the united states get hit badly enough in a cyberattack, we will respond with conventional forces. >> and what do you think can be done about it? >> well, it would be nice to have arms control. i'm old enough to have participated in arms control on strategic nuclear weapons and weapons in europe. when we started, people said you can't get there from here. it's too hard, the russians will never agree, you'll never be able to come up with verification measures. i hear that now when i proposal arms control for cyber. yeah, it takes a while and we don't know the solutions but we have to begin the process. and the trump administration has eliminated the people in the state department who were doing that. the trump administration eliminated the position in the white house that was thinking about that. >> but the argument people would make is, unlike arms control and

nuclear weapons, the problem here is you can get attacked, you cannot know where it came from, they can plauzably deny it. the nuclear weapons had a simple sim etry that allowed you to say if you send a nuclear weapon our way, we'll send one your way. >> if you go to the justice department website, you will see the names and photographs of the chinese, russian, north korea and iranian military officers who are doing the hacking. we know who they are. nsa is very good at this. we know who they are and we've got their pictures. >> so you think it's possible. and presumably there will be some virtue in everybody getting involved in this conversation, the russians. so you would bring iran, north korea, everybody to the table? >> at the second step. as the first step i would get a

community of like-minded nations together, basically the europeans and our asian allies and say you're all being attacked, too, you're vulnerable. let's agree on some norms of behavior. now, the russians do bomb hospitals in syria, as you well know. but norms help. so let's start by getting our friends together, agreeing on the do's and don'ts of cyber war and then invite everybody to the table. >> what would you do with the russian hacking, potential hacking of the u.s. election? >> first of all, i would pass the senator widen bill which is a bill that's similar to what has already passed to give the 4,000 counties and 50 states in the u.s. the money they need to be able to secure their election infrastructure. mitch mcconnell, the leader in the senate, is blocking that bill and you have to wonder why. even marco rubio and other

senate republicans are in favor of it. and you have to wonder if perhaps the reason mitch mcconnell is okay with the russians hacking our elections, doesn't want to do anything really to stop it, is he thinks the russians will again hack in the republicans' favor. >> wow. richard clarke, pleasue to have you on. >> thank you. >> next on "gps," the new greek prime minister has been in office for less than two weeks, but he's already speaking out exclusively to me. america's presidential hopefuls probably want to hear what he has to say. he won a landslide victory over greece's incumbent populus. the story of how he did it when we come back. [music playing] (vo) this is jerry.

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for those who were born to ride, there's progressive. an opinion piece in the "washington post" this week asked the question has greece found the formula for defeating populism? it's possible that it has. you see, after almost five years in power, greece's left wing populist party was roundly defeated in elections early this month. the victor, a desidedly unpopulus former banker who went to harvard, his name is kyriakos mitsotakis. the prime minister joins me now exclusively. congratulations, prime minister. >> thank you very much. thank you. >> so when you decided to run for office and to lead the

party, you were confronting a situation where greece had seemed to have succumbed to forces of populism on the left and also on the right with the right wing party. how did you see the situation and why did you choose the strategy you chose? >> my strategy was very, very clear. i was convinced that you can never beat the populus by playing their own game. so my bet was that at some point the greek people would crave for serious policy oriented policies and this is what we delivered to the greek people. so i would say judging by our results, the strategy was successful. >> you defeated him and i can understand the sense the party was in power and people get tired of them. but what was striking about the e election was the right wing populus, the golden dawn collapsed. why do you think that happened?

>> i think after ten years of crisis the greek people have had enough of anger and rage and pointless nationalism. and in a sense after experimenting in populism i think that the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction. so we managed to defeat the extreme right by coming up with an agenda that was patriotic but certainly not nationalistic and by focusing on the problems that people really care about. issues that have to do with taxation, over-taxation, issues that have to do with lack of investment, how do we create new jobs. issues that have to do with improving the efficiency. so in a sense this was a vote that in m i mind was probably more rational than emotional, but it was the expected backlash after four years of a very incompetent government being in power. >> you said you decided it

wasn't worth playing the populus game, which means you didn't want to sort of try to pander to the same kinds of issues and voices that populism was doing. in the united states and europe there is this debate about whether center parties should try to recognize -- in the case here it's concerns over immigration and things like that. i realize for you it was a slightly different issue. but in general do you think that one has to recognize there is this wave of populism in much of the western world it is about immigration? did you try to sthhow that you were tough so om of the issues that seemed to have fueled populism? >> well, a lot of the grievances upon which the populus feed are very real grievances and they have to be recognized. usually the answers offered by populists are not the correct ones. they're simplistic and don't

really address the problems. in greece we also went through a significant immigration crisis in 2015, more than a million people came through greece and most of them ended up in western europe. so of course immigration is an issue for us and we have -- the solutions that we have proposed are very, very reasonable. of course we need to monitor our borders better, but we also need to change our asylum rules and we need to make sure that we use european funding in a more efficient manner. >> up next, the new prime minister's views of europe, america and president trump. don't go away. ♪

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we are back now with my exclusive interview with greece's new prime minister, kyriakos mitsotakis. prime minister, one of the striking features of populism in europe has been the attacks on europe, on the european union, on the european union's program, the bailout, the austerity program in greece was not popular. are you seen as a european and did that hurt you? >> i am a european and a lot of

mistakes were made on the program by the european partners. at the same time i always believe that attacking europe without any real justification and placing all the blame on europe was doing great injustice to the european experiment. we should not forget that the european immigration process has been very successful certainly as far as my country is concerned, we have greatly benefitted from our participation in the european union and from our participation in the europe. of course there are things in europe that need to change. but attacking europe as a whole or fighting for the disintegration of what we have achieved is not going to do us much go. in an interconnected world, europe needs to be united. >> one of the things i've always been struck by is when you lock at european attitudes towards the united states, for a country that is often ends up being the

most anti-american by public surveys and things, has been greece. now you were regarded during the campaign as clearly kind of an american. in fact, you wee attacked as pro-american, you have a harvard degree, a banker. how come it didn't hurt you to be seen as pre-american? >> i think the attitudes have changed. you're right to point out that maybe 10, 20 years ago greece public continue was quite anti-american. i don't think this is the case any longer. one of the good things that the government did was not no change our policies of strategic partnership with the united states. greek/american relations are at an excellent state and it is not a competitive relationship in terms of with the rest of europe. and it is a relationship that can be further strengthened as far as my personal back ground is concerned, i'm quite proud

about my cv and i don't consider it to be a drawback in my political career. but attitudes in greece have changed and the public opinion is no >> how are you going to navigate relations with donald trump? trump is in most of europe quite unpopular. >> i've had a chance to have a quick chat. i had a longer chat with vice president pence, a short chat with president trump. again, i look at the fundamentals of the u.s./greek relationships and they are very, very solid. and in that sense i'm eager to work with president trump to further improve the quality of our relationship. there's much more we can do, especially on the economic front. as i told you, one of my main goals is to completely change the attitudes of the international investment community vis-a-vis greece and to turn greece into an

attractive investment destination. there's clearly more room to attract more u.s. capital and foreign direct investments in greece. >> prime minister, congratulations again, and thank you so much. >> thank you very much. >> and we will be back. ndfather, o much... about your history. i found some incredible records about samuel silberman... passenger manifests, census information, even wwi draft registration cards. the records exist... they're there, they're facts. that made it so real for me, it wasn't just a story anymore. bring your family history to life like never before. get started for free at ancestry.com there's brushing and there's oral-b power brushing. oral-b just cleans better. it's the one inspired by dentists... with the round brush head. oral-b's gentle rounded brush head removes more plaque along the gumline... for cleaner teeth and healthier gums. oral-b. brush like a pro. ♪ ♪

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while some workers race to deliver the millions of products sold on amazon prime day, others took the opportunity to strike over working conditions, proclaiming we're humans, not robots. those protesters were human, but the robots were coming. amazon added 1,000 over the last five years according to a new study by oxford economics. in fact just in the last two decades, the number of robots used around the world tripled to 2.25 million. it brings me to my question, how many robots will be in the work force by 2030? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million? or 50 million? stay tuned. we'll tell you the correct answer. my book of the week is "the

guarded gate, bigotry, eugenica and the law that kept two generations of juice, italians and other european immigrants out of america." the title says it all. the book is a gripping account of a dark wave in american history. and yes, it does bring to mind some of the forces at play in america right now. the answer to my "gps" challenge this week is c, 20 million robots will be in use by 2030 with some 14 million in china alone, according to oxford economics. while many have heralded the end of the era of made in a, actually the world's great workshop looks poised to cement its position as the leading global manufacturer. internationally this trajectory will cost some 20 million people their manufacturing jobs, even as it increases productivity and economic growth. what's behind the shift? robots are rapidly becoming cheaper than humans and their

capabilities are improving exponentially. not to mention, robots don't protest. at least not yet. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. is boost® delicious boost® high protein nutritional drink has 20 grams of protein, along with 26 essential vitamins and minerals. boost® high protein. be up for life. imagine. megared omega-3 power for your whole body. now with an antioxidant blend for great sleep, refreshed skin and less stress. one softgel. 7 benefits. new total body refresh. power your day with megared. o♪ ozempic®! ♪ oh! oh! (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than 7 and maintained it. oh! under 7? (announcer) and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study,

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but we're also a cancer fighting, hiv controlling, joint replacing, and depression relieving company. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. thanks to priceline working with top airlines to turn their unsold seats into amazing deals, family reunion attendance is up. we're all related! yeah, i see it. and because priceline offers great deals by comparing thousands of prices in real time, sports fans are seeing more away games. various: yeah-h-h! is that safe? oh, y... ahh! not at all. no, ma'am. nope. and more people than ever are enjoying romantic getaways. (romantic music) that's gross priceline. every trip is a big deal. hello, thanks for joining me. i'm martin savidge in for fredricka whitfield. one week after president trump laumpled a