good evening. democratic presidential candidates marian williamson and kirsten gillibrand join us tonight. we begin with growing concerns among democrats and never trump republicans in the wake of the cnn debates in detroit. the candidates they say are risking their general election chances by taking on one another and tarnishing barack obama's legacy instead of focusing on defeating president trump.

president obama is after all, an ex-president with 65% in independents. this is democrats and republicans giving democrats advice, echoing president obama, who warned about this before the campaign even got going at a town hall in berlin earlier this year. >> one of the things i do worry about sometimes among progressives in the united states, maybe it's true here as well, is a certain kind of rigidity where we say, ah, i'm sorry, this is how it's going to be. and then we start sometimes creating what's called a circular firing squad. where you start shooting at your allies because one of them is straying from purity on the issues. >> well, that sentiment is being echoed now. cnn political commentator paul

begala earlier today. >> this is my problem with the debate. i believe many of these candidates seeking to win the nomination are setting themselves up to lose the presidency to donald trump. >> he's arguing in the effort to win the primaries, democratic candidates are moving so far left they won't be able to win in a general election. senate majority leader chuck schumer said we shouldn't create a trap to fall into. no circular firing squads, he added. eric holder, who served as attorney general under president obama, to my fellow democrats, be wary of attacking the obama record. there is little to be gained by you or the party by attacking successful and still popular democratic president. hammering out differences are part and parcel of any primary in either party and there are real policy differences between democrats. differences that candidates want to make clear so they can distinguish themselves in what is a very crowded field. the question is can democrats figure out a way to pick a nominee without debasing the eventual nominee or harming the credibility of the still popular

former standard bearer? that remains to be seen. some of the key moments from detroit especially on health care and immigration policies show how difficult that can be. >> vice president biden, i didn't hear your response when the issue came up with all those deportations. you were vice president of the united states. i didn't hear whether you tried to stop them or not, using your power, your influence in the white house -- >> first of all, mr. vice president, it looks like one of us has learned the lessons of the past and one of us hasn't. >> we have tried the solution of medicare, medicaid and private insurance, and what have the private insurance companies done? they've sucked billions of dollars out of our health care system. >> i'm confused. i asked the vice president point-blank, did he use his power to stop those deportations. he went right around the question -- >> joe biden was quick to defend president obama today, once again highlighting his connection to the former president and critiquing some of what he heard last night at the debate. >> the world has changed since

obama, and here's the deal. he changed the dialogue. he changed the whole question. he changed what was going on. and the idea that somehow it's comparable to what this guy is doing is absolutely bizarre. >> well, this guy he's referring to, of course, is president trump. one democrat's circular firing squad is a crucible from which the candidate will emerge. joining us is new york senator kirsten gillibrand. thank you for joining us. cnn has new reporting says president obama is privately questioning the wisdom of the presidential candidates attacking his record. probably doesn't surprise anybody that he would be concerned about that. but he does have this 95% approval rating among democrats. is there a danger in going down this road? >> well, president obama was a great president. and i think for a lot of us we're looking to figure out how to build on his accomplishments and build on his records. so what we're trying to do with obamacare specifically is how do

we get to universal coverage that's affordable? and that's why a lot of people like medicare for all. i like the buy-in. i think it's exciting. i think it's an opportunity. but i think for all of us, the purpose of a presidential i think it's an opportunity. but i think for all of us, the purpose of a presidential primary is to share with the american people your vision for the country. and i do think there's a false debate going on right now that you either need a progressive who inspires the base or you need a moderate who wins back those obama/obama trump voters. i think you need both. and that's who i am. i am somebody who wins in the red and purple places. i just won back a bunch of the places trump had won in the last election, my election. i bring people together to get stuff done, big stuff and small stuff. i think we need someone who is going to bring the party back together and the country back together and really heal this divide that president trump has created. >> but as you know, what senator

warren or senator sanders will say, small steps, moderate steps, that's not going to excite huge numbers of people. senator sanders constantly talks about not only needing a revolution, but turnout among young voters, among african-american voters. that is what it's going to take. not just to get the white house back, but also congress. >> anderson, the issue with health care is people can't afford it. it's still too expensive. you know, i met a family that the husband was diagnosed with cancer and the price of the medicine that he had to take was $5,000 a month. they only had $60,000 in savings. because they were on fixed income, the husband decided not to take the medicine because he didn't want to leave his wife penniless. fair enough, he didn't take the medicine. he died. those are the real issues that families are debating all across america. and i think it's a great sign that democrats are just trying to come up with a better way to get universal coverage that covers the basic treatments and

medicines and procedures that people need that's affordable. and the republicans and trump, they are determined to take away people's health care. telling insurers they can drop anybody with a preexisting condition. >> but critics of medicare for all, among democrats, will say the message you just said, that president trump is trying to take away your health care, that's a message democrats can run on. the message we democrats are going to take away your private insurance for something that we say is better down the road, that's suddenly a message of democrats taking something away from people, no? >> yeah, you don't need to because the truth is if you offer medicare as something people can buy into at a price they can afford, it's going to create competition, and i don't think a lot of those private insurance companies are even going to try to compete. they don't lower their rates. they raise their rates. they're for-profit companies. they have obligations to shareholders and to quarterly

profits and they pay their ceos millions of dollars. so god bless them if they want to compete. i don't think they will. and that's how you ultimately get more people to choose medicare. and once you get a good amount of buy-in, your step to universal coverage, single-payer is very short. ultimately you want to make it an earned benefit like you have with social security. >> last night you went after vice president biden's record bringing up an op-ed from 1981 that he wrote. in it he said women working outside the home would lead to the deterioration of family. we read the op-ed. that's not what he wrote. i mean, it's an op-ed about high-income families receiving tax credits for childcare -- >> anderson, anderson did you read it? yeah. >> he literally said that he would not vote for making it easier for middle class families to get access to affordable

daycare because because it would, quote, lead to the deterioration of the family. he said that he felt parents were, quote, avoiding their responsibilities. my grandmother, my grandmother worked outside the home. she had help because she wanted to provide for her kids. she wanted to have an impact in her community. she organized women for two generations to get involved in politics. my mother, she was only one of three women in her law school class. she was able to get affordable daycare and have childcare when she was a young mother, so she could be a lawyer. she helped young gay couples be able to buy a home together, leave wills to each other. she had an impact on her community. myself, i had access to affordable daycare for both my children. the second child henry who was in the audience last night -- >> but the question is were you accurately portraying what the vice president -- >> yes, yes. >> because according to "the washington post," biden himself said in 1981 in the indianapolis news regarding the topic of

child care -- >> anderson, give me a break. >> i'm just quoting him. in the 1980s, how many, if you had two working parents, how many of the men stayed at home while the women went to wrork work? it was something like less than 4%. >> right. >> even today, do you know what the number is? it's less than 5%. so the implication of what he was saying is that if women choose to work outside the home, they are, quote, deteriorating the family. so my question, a legitimate question for someone who is running for president -- because not only do we need a standard bearer who is going to fight for women, we need a champion. i will be that champion for women because i've been leading the charge on affordable daycare, universal pre-k, having a national leave pay -- >> what the vice president said to you last night essentially in response was you have worked with the vice president for many times.

you've travelled with him apparently and -- >> yes. >> you never raised this. if this was such a burning concern of yours that his belief, why not bring it up to him at some point earlier than when you're running for president on a debate stage? >> frankly, i'm as shocked as you are that he authored that op-ed. i was shocked to reed it. i just read it, like, literally a couple of weeks ago. >> you don't think it represents what he thinks? >> i don't know. that's why i gave him an opportunity to tell the american people and democrats and women who are on fire in this election what he meant. and i very directly asked him what did you mean when you said, making it possible for more middle class families to work outside the home would lead to, quote, the deterioration of the family. and i asked him, do you still believe that? and these are his words, his op-ed, citing what he said in context. that is exactly the kind of issues you should be able to debate when you're running for president of the united states. and we need a champion in the white house and a champion as

our nominee who will fight for women, who will fight for paid leave, affordable daycare, and those are things i have been championing not only my whole career, but the first presidential candidate to put out a family bill of rights to do exactly that. >> senator gillibrand, i appreciate your time. >> thanks, anderson. >> candidate marian williamson joins us as well on the broadcast tonight. that's just ahead. as well as a conversation about anyone on the debate stage has what it takes to stand toe to toe with president trump. observations and insight from someone who did. most people think a button is just a button. ♪ that a speaker is just a speaker. ♪ or - that the journey can't be the destination. most people haven't driven a lincoln. discover the lincoln approach to craftsmanship at the lincoln summer invitation. right now, get 0% apr on all 2019 lincoln vehicles

plus no payments for up to 90 days. only at your lincoln dealer. who used expedia to book the vacation rental which led to the discovery that sometimes a little down time can lift you right up. expedia. everything you need to go. it's something we take personally, and believe in passionately. it's the idea that if our mothers were diagnosed with cancer, how would we want them to be treated? that's exactly how we care for you. with answers and actions. to hear your concerns, quiet your fears, lift your spirits. with teams of cancer experts and specialists, delivering advanced treatment options and compassionate support every step of the way. all here in one place, with one purpose. to fight your cancer, together.

that's the mother standard of care. this is how we inspire hope. this is how we heal. cancer treatment centers of america. appointments available now. this is the averys trying the hottest new bistro.. this is the averys. wait...and the hottest taqueria? and the hottest...what are those? oh, pierogis? and this is the averys wondering if eating out is eating into saving for their first home. this is jc... (team member) welcome to wells fargo, how may i help? (vo) who's here to help with a free financial health conversation, no strings attached. this is the averys with the support they needed to get back on track. well done guys. (team member) this is wells fargo. [ alarm sound ] [ alarhello.d ]

what is happening? what is all of this? move! everybody get out of here! why'd they kidnap bunch of normal folk like us? there's no escape. you have no idea what you're up against. [ screaming ] how to draw thisa seif-portrait of me.arn i'm gonna read 100 books. i'm gonna ask katie out to the school dance. happy school year!

♪ here i go again on my own ♪ goin' down the only road i've ever known ♪ ♪ like a drifter i was-- ♪ born to walk alone! ...barb! you left me hangin' on the high harmony there. if you ride, you get it. geico motorcycle. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more. before the break you heard democratic presidential candidate defend her performance on the debate stage last night and address the notion that democrats are doing what even fellow democrats say they do all too well, namely go after other democrats. as we mentioned at the top, there is new reporting on president obama's take on all this. jeff zeleny citing people close to him who discussed this with him. although he is not bothered by

the progressive shift among democrats, he has expressed exasperation to some policy proposals and promises he believes are unrealistic. i want to talk about it now with "usa today" columnist and cnn political analyst kirsten powers joins us. democratic strategist, aish a moody mills and david gergen who has seen more campaigning from the inside than any of us. kirsten, is this fair game in your mind for democrats or does it risk fracturing the party? >> well, it's fair game. it's not out of bounds. i'm just not sure it's productive. so certainly president obama, when he was running for office, he was, you know -- and he was running against hillary clinton in the primary, he had no problem criticizing things that happened in the clinton administration. and i think that it's fine to have some criticisms. but i would do it in a different way. i would treat it -- i think the democrats would be well served to say, we want to build on the successes that obama had versus saying -- sort of treating it as though these successes didn't occur.

and even the way they've portrayed his immigration policy, which i had a lot of criticism for at the time, you still have to recognize what he was dealing with, right? that he had a republican congress, for example, that he actually did do some good things such as the dreamers act. so instead, you know, you have bill de blasio sort of painting this picture he was the deporter in chief and nothing else. that's joe biden's job to push back on that kind of stuff. >> aisha, is it smart for particularly candidates on the left, bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, they're trying to have a huge turnout, they're trying to get excitement going in parts of the country that weren't excited the last time around. >> yeah, i think that's exactly the point, right? we're having the wrong conversation. i think mayor pete said it best on the stage last night. he said that we can't actually move forward and have progress if we keep recycling the old politicians and old politics of the past. i think that's a real fundamental conversation that we need to be having within the

party. i don't think we should be desecrating president obama's legacy at all. of course, it was some of the greatest years for the democrats. >> 95% approval rating among democrats. >> and the things he achieved were great, obamacare. that doesn't mean, though, that eight years later, six years later we shouldn't be growing and evolving. and i think that there is a part of the party and frankly who i consider to be the movable middle for the democrats are really those young people, and those progressives who sometimes sit home and don't actually participate because they're not feeling moved and they're not excited. >> wait, you're saying young people -- you're saying young people and progressives are the middle of the party? >> i'm saying that when i say movable middle, i mean people we need to move to the polls. they're not the most reliable voters all the time because sometimes young people show up, sometimes they show up less, right? i believe that we need to do is we need to focus on how do we get the base out in mass to beat donald trump, and i think that that's not about desecrating obama, but it's absolutely about being aspirational. and there's nothing wrong with

all those candidates on the stage saying, this was great, and here's where we actually need to go next. >> david gergen, it seems to be, you know, i've only been reporting on politics since the mid-'90s, but it seems every election cycle they talk about getting young people out to vote. it does raise up some years are better than others. but is that what the democrats should be focused on? because you hear that a lot from bernie sanders about mobilizing young people. >> oh, absolutely. the millennial generation is the biggest generation in american history. and so far it's moved mostly to the left. the republicans are losing these people. if you can get the young people out to vote along with the two other groups in the democrat coalition, the ball coalition, you get women out to vote, people of color out to vote, of course there's overlap in those groups, you win the election.

>> talking about obama the way he was talked about last night, does that hurt, does that send a message to the obama coalition? >> i think it's a mistake. i think it's a serious mistake. listen, when bill clinton left office, he had a very substantial economic record. positive record. but the democrats that year, gore and others, ran away from the clinton record and economics. they just abandoned that argument and they lost the white house. and now here comes obama. the democrats have a chance to make a very powerful argument. they should not completely cede economic growth and give all the credit to trump. the argument could be, listen, when president obama got -- inherited the white house from the republicans, we were in a near catastrophe, we were near depression, one-third chance of having a depression. by the time obama left, the economy was in the beginning of the longest growth period in american history. that's what obama left us. and now we're facing -- if you want to go forward and have a diverse society, inclusive society, go for the kind of economic growth and build on

what obama had. yes, you can criticize, but the other thing, one other lesson, when you criticize, criticize their record, criticize the ideas. don't make it personal. and what was happening last night in the debate was too often you had a sense it was getting very personal. >> aisha? >> i want to say, i want to go back to something i believe, democratic voters in the general are going to stay home because someone on the debate stage called into question whether obama could have done something differently with immigration. i think that that's a false narrative and i think we should stop using republican talking points. i do believe, though, that democrats can get more people out, that we can get out more people of color and more women just like when 2018 with resist, and get more people animated, young people in particular, when you're talking about issues and ideas that are aspirational. >> when did -- >> and that's what the progressives are trying to do. >> when did republican talking points become democratic talking points? it's the republican version of

calling something fake news. >> because elizabeth warren is brilliant and she said it. the truth is time and time and time again, you do have democrats who call themselves moderates. i don't even know what that means anymore, but who really try to regurgitate what they think a mythical group of people who are somewhat in the middle want and believe. and i think that's a false choice. >> can i say something about that? >> go ahead, kirsten. >> i think that, look, let's put names to who is saying these kinds of things. rahm emanuel. i don't think he's a mythical figure, right? i think he's somebody who actually knows a lot about politics. you can disagree with him and i am not necessarily aligned with him on a lot of things. but i think that -- i don't think rahm emanuel or nancy pelosi, for example, are regurgitating republican talking points, nor are they afraid of anybody. i think that they are being pragmatic and they are people who have won races and looking at it and saying, look, the entire country isn't progressive. so, you know, i think that there is good faith and we should at least treat everybody's arguments as good faith even if you don't agree with it.

i'm not necessarily aligned with where rahm emanuel is, but i think he is acting in good faith. >> we have to leave it there. i appreciate you all. thank you very much. up next, president trump's rally in ohio, the first since that ugly moment when the crowd chanted "send her back." we'll get a live report on what the crowd is saying this time and what the president is saying. at t-mobile, for $40/line for four lines, it's all included for the whole family, starting with unlimited data. use as much as you want, when you want. and if you like netflix, it's included on us. plus no surprises on your bill. taxes and fees are included. and now for a limited time, with each new line, get one of our latest smartphones included. that's right, only $40/line for four lines and smartphones are included for the whole family. bill's back needed a afvacation from his vacation. an amusement park... so he stepped on the dr. scholl's kiosk. it recommends our best custom fit orthotic to relieve foot, knee, or lower back pain.

so you can move more. dr. scholl's. born to move. it's rukmini here from the new york times . hey, you see this? times change. eyes haven't. that's why we created new ocuvite eye performance. between screen light... sunlight... and our always-on world... eyes have never been more stressed! ocuvite delivers nutrients that can help strengthen your eye's natural protective filter. and with new ocuvite eye performance you get 7 protective nutrients vital for today's eyes. because in this day and age nourishing your eyes has never been more important.

ocuvite eye vitamins. eye nutrition for today. has been excellent. they really appreciate the military family and it really shows. with all that usaa offers why go with anybody else? we know their rates are good, we know that they're always going to take care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. it was funny because when we would call another insurance company, hey would say "oh we can't beat usaa" we're the webber family. we're the tenney's we're the hayles, and we're usaa members for life. ♪ get your usaa auto insurance quote today.

♪ let's cowboy up! exhilarating speed. woo! precision control. woo! maximum reliability. access denied. [ repeats ] access denied. if it's not xfinity xfi, it's not good enough. for wifi with super powers, get xfinity xfi. and go see, fast & furious presents, hobbs & shaw. august 2.

president trump is in cincinnati, ohio tonight for a campaign rally. his last one turned especially ugly after the president attacked congresswoman ilhan omar by name. the crowd chanted "send her back." for 13 seconds the president took it all in and basked in it. jim acosta is there and he joins us now. jim, earlier today the president said he didn't know if he could stop the crowd from chanting "send her back" in reference to

the congresswoman. what's happened tonight? >> reporter: anderson, so far that chant has not been heard in this crowd here in cincinnati, ohio. the president did say at one point that he could talk about certain members of congress on the democratic side, but he's not going to do that. he's not going to mention them by name because he said he doesn't want to cause any controversy. anderson, i think the interesting thing we saw almost at the very beginning of the speech from the president was when he came out and he celebrated essentially what happened over the last two nights during the democratic debates. he said the democrats spent more time attacking barack obama than they have donald trump. that was essentially a sign that the president felt that democrats were doing his work on his behalf. now, i will say the president went on to attack some of the democrats in the field. he went after elizabeth warren at one point, but he also attacked joe biden, vice president joe biden, suggesting that the vice president has lost a step mentally. he said at one point during the remarks at this rally that future president biden could have his advisors around him and put any paper in front of him and that he would sign it.

that's almost a direct quote. so the president going further than i've heard before and really attacking joe biden's mental acuity. anderson, the other thing we should point out is that there was some ugliness that broke out in the crowd earlier this evening. you were asking whether or not the crowd was chanting "send her back," they didn't do that, but that hot button of immigration could certainly be felt as a protester what holding up a sign that said "immigrants built america." trump supporters tried to rip that sign out of that protester's hands and a brief scuffle did break out here at the rally in cincinnati. >> thank you very much. joining me now former presidential candidate and former ohio governor john kasich. he's a senior cnn political commentator. former governor of vermont, howard dean. appreciate you being with us, governor kasich, as someone who has stood toe to toe on a debate stage with president trump, who from this group of democrats do you see or do you see anyone who actually could stand toe to toe

on a debate stage and take the president on? as you know, and all republicans ran against him know, he presents a lot of unique challenges. >> well, anderson, first of all, let's let this campaign kind of develop. you know, i felt that joe biden, because he's more of the centrist -- because i think the country's fundamentally either center-right or center-left, i think could be on the stage and could handle himself well. but for anybody that ultimately will face him, you know, you don't want to take the bait. he's going to try to get you to go to his level. he's going to say things that are going to be outrageous toward you. he may name call. if you try to get into that and you try to get down at that level, you're making a very big mistake. i think you have to constantly correct the record because he'll try to distort your record. you have to constantly correct it. but then obviously have something positive to say about what you want to do. but if you go down in the rabbit hole, you're going to find that is a losing proposition. and when you think about the

republicans that tried to do that, he smashed them. i never did that. i didn't think it was worth getting into the mud with him or lowering myself to those kinds of name-calling. just don't do that. so, but it will be tough because he'll be very basic and he will really paint you as something that you're not. you better be prepared to correct him. >> governor dean, would you agree with that, that advice just on a debate stage kind of advice? >> i agree with most of it. and john's been there and i have fortunately not been facing president trump. i think -- but i do think you have to smack him. i do think you have to smack him. i think the opening remark is putting him back in his place, humiliating him and then going to the positivity. we're not going to win if all we do is talk about trump which he's very good at doing. that's all he cares about. but we have to talk about our program, but i do think you can't ignore him. you figuratively belt him in the chops and then move on.

i agree with name-calling, but you can talk to him about russia. you can talk to him about his corrupt hotel dealings and all that stuff. just hit them and go on. >> governor dean, do you see anybody on the debate stage on either night who you think at this stage, again it's very early, could do that? >> it's very, very early. i thought the person initially who did it well at her announcement was amy klobuchar. i think now looking at more of what's going on, i agree with john that biden is so experienced that i think he could. you know, i think should bernie sanders or elizabeth warren get the nomination, i think they're more than capable of it. you know, there are a fair number of people up there who could do that. i thought bennet and the governor of -- steve bullock had a good night, but they don't have a lot of exposure so it's going to be less likely they'll get the nomination. >> governor kasich, you like many of the democrats running now certainly have a long political resume.

president trump is not -- i mean, this is the most obvious statement in the world, he is not your typical poll tiliticiat he has mastered a way to level personal attacks and stay away from really any policy details, like certainly nobody i've ever seen before. is that the biggest challenge ahead for anyone facing him? because i mean, you're arguing against somebody who isn't arguing a set of facts that are agreed upon, and who is even not even arguing policy that much. >> just remember, anderson, he said he was going to balance the budget by eliminating waste, fraud and abuse. and the deficit is going through the roof. but he's very effective at doing it. look, what he's able to do is take pieces of something that people can relate to and then -- and then go from there. it's not like everything he says, you know, you're going to kind of agree with. there's pieces of it that you might agree with, but that's why you don't want to get hung up on that. and when he makes a statement that's false, i agree with howard on this. of course you have to correct him. you have to set the record straight.

but my concern is if you go down there and you become negative, you've got two guys mud wrestling, and to me, you really almost -- you want to speak to the american people. if you get too hung up on fighting trump, you're not going to get your message to the folks out there, and that's who you need to get your message to. the other thing that i think is interesting is, howard, one thing i want to say, because howard was good at this early on in his campaign. the debates in some ways will not be as critical as the ground game that people have. hillary clinton didn't win or lose because of debates. barack obama didn't win or lose because of debates. same with george bush. they won because they had an excellent ground game. that's where these elections are won. they get won in the field, not necessarily standing on a debate stage. >> governor dean? >> a, that's true, and b, what john said reminded me of a fantastic saying by linden johnson, which is if you get in a mud wrestling match with a

pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it. every democrat should remember that. >> governor dean, thank you. governor kasich, we'll end on that note. >> much to think about on that one. very had quite a night on tuesday. marian williamson was the most searched candidate online tuesday night. she's getting more attention, more scrutiny. we'll talk with her in a moment. priceline will partner with even more vegas hotels to turn their unsold rooms into amazing deals. delegates, how do you vote? (cheering) ♪ yes, y-y-y-yes, yes... that is freaky. (applause) four three two one

happy school year! you wouldn't accept from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. flonase.

after her debate performance here on cnn on tuesday night, the self-help author and presidential candidate marian williamson was the most searched person on google in 49 out of 50 states. there's a lot more interest in her, also of course, that comes more scrutiny of her positions and the push to make it into the next debate. marianne williamson joins me now. thank you so much for being with us. appreciate it. >> thank you so much for having me. >> you're definitely getting more scrutiny now. that's part of the process. i want to ask you about some of the statements that you've made about vaccinations and antidepressants because that's been coming out. you've often brought up very legitimate concerns about doctors overprescribing antidepressants and other drugs. you brought up concerns, which are legitimate, about aggressive marketing by big pharmaceutical companies and possible harmful side effects of antidepressant drugs. to me those all seem very legitimate concerns to raise. i've never heard you express the real concern for the stigma surrounding depression, and i know there are some people who

say that you're actually contributing to that stigma by repeatedly saying that antidepressant drugs -- you've used the word numb or mask you. isn't the fact that depression numbs you and masks you while some drugs have dangers and side effects, not all drugs numb you or mask you and telling a seriously depressed person to take an antidepressant is going to be numbed, is that not a good message? >> i think that would be a not good message and i think i've never given that message. that's just never the way i've spoken and it is a complete mischaracterization of my commentary. what i've talked about is a normal spectrum of human despair, normal human despair, which traditionally was seen as the purview of spirituality and religion. that which gave people comfort and gave people hope and inspiration in their times of pain. and with the advent of modern psychotherapy, a lot of the baton sort of passed from religion and spirituality to modern psychotherapy which was an interesting transition. and then over the last few years, very, very quickly, the

baton was passed again to psychopharmacology. and so a nuanced conversation was lost regarding the nature of human despair regarding the phenomenon of human despair. that's what i have spoken about. >> you have used the word numb many times and masked. >> yes. >> you said, in fact, feds say one in ten americans on anti-depressants. not a good sign. this is not a time in american history for any of us to be numbing our pain. if you're on an antidepressant, you're not numbing your pain, you're actually trying to feel again, no? >> well, some people would argue that. some people not. but the issue here for me is the difference between normal human despair. >> right. >> and if you are going through something like grief, for instance -- >> right, that's -- you write very eloquently about universal sadness. do you acknowledge -- you have raised questions, though, about clinical depression in the past. i know in a podcast with russell brand, i think you called

clinical depression such a scam. and then you backtracked with "the new york times" saying you regretted saying that, but you went on to say and i'm quoting, "it's not always such a scam at all." it does seem like, again, you're suggesting that clinical depression is a scam. >> no. do you want to let me -- do you want me to tell you what i think? i'd be glad to do that. what i believe is when we go through these issues of normal human despair, when we go through a divorce, when we have a pain over a breakup, when someone that we love has died, when we have been through a financial loss or failure, there is value sometimes in feeling the sadness, feeling that dark night of the soul. >> i agree with you. >> well, then let me explain how i feel about that in relationship to antidepressants, if i may. we have over the last few years taken this cheap yellow smilie face, put it overall human emotion, like happy, happy, happy. we have lost our sense that there are times when sadness is part of life. there is one of my favorite lines from the poet roka, when he says, let me not squander the

hours of my pain. and so what i speak to is not serious -- what is today called clinical depression, although i have questioned sometimes how that is looked at. you know, anderson -- >> you said it was a scam. >> no -- and i have said when i made that comment that's a scam, too, in a podcast with russell brand, that was a glib comment and you're right, anderson, i have said that was wrong of me to say. this is very important that we -- do you know how many women in america are prescribed their antidepressants by their gynecologists? do you know how many people are prescribed antidepressants after having talked to, even if it is a mental health professional, for ten minutes -- >> but you do also know that suicides among women have gone up dramatically. you know suicides nationwide among men and women have gone up 30% over the last ten or so years. >> yes, this is also what i know, anderson, that the use of antidepressants, if you look at the statistics about the suicide rate and the use of

antidepressants, there's no real argument there that necessarily the use of antidepressants statistically across the board has helped with the suicide -- >> i agree. i mean, it's -- mental health is in its infancy in terms of doctors understanding how to deal with clinical chemical depression. but it does seem like there are many people helped by antidepressants and -- >> and that's a good thing. >> right. but you -- >> i have never -- >> a few months after robin williams died by suicide, you posting something i'm putting on the screen, implying antidepressants were the cause of williams' death. you wrote the truth about antidepress pants, helpful for some, harmful for others. then you linked to this article that was clearly suggesting antidepressants played a role in his death. do you know who wrote that article? that was by an organization funded by the church of scientology, which doesn't even believe in psychiatry, doesn't believe in psychiatric medicine

for even serious mental illness. they even have a museum in hollywood called psychiatry, an industry of death. >> anderson, if somebody is helped by an antidepressant, i'm happy for them. and i have never argued that anybody who is on an antidepressant should get off an antidepressant. and not only that, i have always made it very clear, always made it very clear that if anything in my conversation makes people think twice about it, if, in fact, they are on it -- that the last thing they should ever do is throw it away because getting off them, people must get off them -- if they get off them -- very, very carefully. so this idea that i, like i'm some tom cruise about antidepressants, i'm not and i never have been. >> but if somebody is depressed and they're reading your tweets or reading your books they're not hearing you speak -- in a nuanced way. >> have you read my book "tears to triumph" on this?

>> i have and i find your writing very fascinating. >> thank you. >> it worries me you seem to be sending a message about antidepressants in a blanket way or clinical depression. you're saying you're happy for somebody if it helps them. i don't hear you saying, i encourage you, everybody, talk with a medical provider and see if this is just a regular sadness or it's understandable or -- >> what i would say once again, i'm sorry. i believe a medical professional -- talking to someone about their sadness, i believe that someone who is clergy, someone who is a psychotherapist who is not coming from a psychopharmacological perspective, someone who is a spiritual person is just as qualified an expert to talk about issues of deep sadness, even depression. it has only been in the last few years that this idea of the medicalization of depression has come up. why are we pretending what we all know is not true? we are living in a society now where somebody is going through just a normal breakup and somebody said, do you think you should be on something? once again, let's talk about how many times it's the

gynecologist -- this is not a mental health professional. and how many times people say that the doctor who gave it to them -- >> you're relying on the church of scientology for factual background to your argument and that's really not -- would you appoint someone from the church of scientology to be head of cdc if you were president? >> no, i would not. also, i had my one glib comment that i have said i was sorry about. it was a podcast with russell brand where i talked about something being a scam. and that was a mistake about that. >> you also -- with due respect, when kate spade died, you tweeted out, how many public personalities have to hang themselves before the fda -- excuse me. how many public personalities on antidepressants have to hang themselves before the fda does something? big pharma cops to what it knows. the average person stops falling for this. the tragedies keep compounding. the awakening should begin. you do seem to be implying, a, kate spade was on antidepressants.

i don't think we have knowledge of nor is it anybody's business. you seem to be linking in the end, famous people with antidepressants and suicide. and many people who are on antidepressants have had suicidal ideation long before they were taking anti-depressants. >> and there is a warning for people under 25 years old and younger, the risk of suicidal ideation is increased rather than decreased. do you know how many teenagers and young people -- excuse me. you know what, andrew -- >> but not for people over 24. and again, just putting out a blanket tweet in the wake -- on the day somebody has died, implying that they were on antidepressants and that's what caused their suicide, that's just seems irresponsible. >> well, anderson, i could say the same thing to you given how many pharmaceutical companies advertise on your show. so -- >> i don't know how many do ads on my show. so i don't know what pharmaceutical companies. >> you might want to look at it.

you might want to look at it. so when you say to me -- >> i'm not impacting by who advertises on my show. i don't know who advertises on my show. it is not of any interest to me. i'm sure it is to people in this company. but i don't care. what i care about is people who are dying and there is a stigma seeking medical help for something that could save their life. >> i have a -- >> i think it is important that when i read people saying, well, all of these drugs cause suicide, i mean -- >> i don't say that. anderson. >> no. >> you have not -- on this program, i'm sorry. you said with all due respect i feel very little respect here and very little opportunity to say what i believe. i think the person that had blanket statements said about them on this program is me. i never had the blanket conversation you are suggesting i had. when it comes to people that are suicidal, i have a 35-year career working with people in

despair. a 35-year career working with people in crisis. i had a 35-year career working with people in pain. i have people who are sent to me to work with them. i have been up close and personal with people in their pain and despair for decades. i am glib -- >> i am want saying you are glib. >> a complete mischaracterization and misrepresentation of my career. >> i am not saying you are glib in any way. you are deadly serious about this and you have very strong beliefs. >> but i am not saying -- >> i don't understand some of your public statements. >> let me speak. anderson, then let me speak. this is not a conversation we are having. >> i think it is. i need to try to -- you say you didn't say stuff. i read you quotes. >> you don't let me explain. when people are taking anti-depressants who have had

serious, serious pain and serious pain and depression in their lives. and they are helped by them, i am happy for them. i am happy for them. when i meet young people and i meet them all of the time. once again, i am the one here who has had a lot of experience with people in pain. >> but i don't think telling people it will numb them is a good idea. >> that is your belief. i believe to -- may i speak? i believe a person under 25, and. >> you are not specifying this in your comments. you are saying 1 in 10 is on anti-depressants. tell me a person depressed and is 40 years old and thinking about suicide. >> i am -- excuse me. may i please speak? i am not talking about people that are suicidal. i am talking about people depressed about the world today given the fact that the world is

depressing. >> clinically depressed people are not depressed just because the world is depressing. they have a chemical imbalance. >> you are the one making the blanket statements that there is notice particular scientific evidence. you are talking about clinical depression as if there is a blood test. you can talk about chemical imbalance but you can talk about chemical changes that come about through yoga and through prayer. chemical changes that come about through sugar and nutrition. given what my conversation has been that i am very concerned about are teenagers and people in the early 20s who are told, and i meet them all of the time. they go and they go and some young woman. the 20s are hard. they are not a mental illness. losing someone you love is hard. it is not a mental illness.

>> we are on the same page about overprescription of drugs and aggressive marketing campaigns by big pharmaceutical companies and young people should know the dangerous side-effects of the dangerous drugs. i think you have expressed your opinions tonight. some of the language you used raised concerns. i think it is fair i ask the questions. >> i think it would be fair for me to have more opportunity to answer them. perhaps at some point. >> i would love that and like the conversation to continue. i don't mean to make you feel disrespected. not my intention. we will be right back. most people think a button is just a button. ♪ that a speaker is just a speaker. ♪ or - that the journey can't be the destination. most people haven't driven a lincoln.

discover the lincoln approach to craftsmanship at the lincoln summer invitation. right now, get 0% apr on all 2019 lincoln vehicles plus no payments for up to 90 days. only at your lincoln dealer. if you have moderate little things can be a big deal. plus no payments for up to 90 days. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea,

or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines, and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you. ♪ who used expedia to book

the vacation rental which led to the discovery that sometimes a little down time can lift you right up. expedia. everything you need to go.

i spoke before the break with presidential candidate mary williamson. we are joined now by chris cuomo. >> how are you doing coop. long time, no see. you had to do it. you had to do it. look, you and i lived this in a way other people have not. we are very sensitive to mental health and challenges. depression is not sadness. you know this. no way do i mean --

>> she makes that point too. >> right. >> that people who are just sad are being pushed. >> but with no respect intended. there was conflation from her about this. i read two of her books. i think there are a lot of good stuff in there about how to turn pain into empowerment. but chemical imbalance is real. depression is real. sure there is not a blood test for a lot of maladies. we have to be careful not to mitigate the significance of this. you do a brilliant job in a human way and a right way. i know she didn't like the question. that is too bad. >> you are running for president. she is on a different level than she is before. >> it is not fair. it is required. it is a must. the church of scientology can have no place in a discussion

about mental health. this is about the columbia protocol that let people learn how to help people that are in mental health distress. >> chris, we will go to you in about a minute for your show. we will be right back. ♪ "rock and wreck." seen it. covered it. at farmers insurance, we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ [ text notification now that you have] new dr. scholl's massaging gel advanced insoles with softer, bouncier gel waves, you'll move over 10% more than before. dr. scholl's. born to move. and the basketball team. join the soccer team, make more art. i am gonna learn how to chop things with my hands. happy school year!