this is gps, the global public scare. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria ya. today on the show an exclusive. two former secretaries of state. one from either side of the aisle. madeleine albright and collin powell on the president's phone call with his ukrainian counterpart. the whistle blower's memos. >> vicious. vicious. >> and the state of american

politics today. >> and cracking the code on kiev. we will understand who is who and what's what on the ukrainian side of this story. >> but first, here's my take. donald trump finally got to see the kind of military pa ride ra -- parade he longed for. it was in beijing, not washington. in 2018 trump directed the pentagon to put on a lavish show of arms to demonstrate america's might. when news of the cost got out, an estimated $92 million, he substitu stopped the plan. president trump xi jinping put on a show commemorating the communist rule with floats, planes, and a nuclear capable

missile that could evade american missile defenses. as xi inspected troops, he shouted hello comrades. they shouted back hello leader. in many ways president xi has increased the state's role in the economy, tightened political control and repression and embraced a rerival of mowism. while a pair of political scientists recently conducted 77 in depth interviews with chinese citizens and concluded that some do, indeed, have a hankering for the good old days. the scholars describe this as a reflective nostalgia before there was a whirlwind of change in every aspect of chinese society. some chinese yearn to make china great again. the revived celebration of the

ideology, songs and doctrines has struck many westerners as bizarre. it was plunged chinese into crises. but the communist party appears to have recognized that in times of ceaseless change, an embrace of nostalgia can be useful. a central aspect of the rerival has been the return to a cult of personality. xi abolished term limits and generally dispensed with the idea of collective leadership. all this marks a stunning reversal from the vision for china. he initiated the 1980s reforms that have created china's modern economy. he openly acknowledged mao's greatest failures including the

cultural revolution. dung blamed the insistence on naming his successor and lifetime tenure and explained none of it would be permitted in the new china. president xi has ignored the warnings. americans largely see china as a monolith, an image encouraged by the communist party and the grand parades. in fact, it's a vast complex society going through great transformation. xi is trying to hold it together and maintain control over a dynamic society without provoking a backlash. that's why with all the military power on display, xi has been weary about using any of it to quell the riots in hong kong. societies that are confident enough to criticize their leaders relentlessly, to mock military parades and look honestly at all aspects of the past often look messy, chaotic and divided.

but perhaps in the long-run, they have a deeper resilience and stability. for more, go to cnn.com/fareed and read my washington post column this week. let's get started. it's a rare pleasure to interview two of america's finest elder states people at once, but that is exactly the opportunity i had this week when i sat down with collin powell and madeleine albright. both of them, of course, served as secretaries of state. powell under president george w. bush, albright under bill clinton. i was invited to interview on a stage in front of a group of citizens, members of the military and first responders. let's begin with general powell talking about all the tu

multisurrounding the whistleblower and the phone call around the president of the united states and ukraine. >> we have this situation in washington with the preliminary investigation being done by the house of representatives under mrs. pelosi, and you just got to ask yourself, where does this all go? well, it's going to go the constitutional way. she is following the constitution and the law, and she's created an organization within the house of representatives to look into these things. and that's what we ought to do. but it's hard to look into it when the other side in the white house is cursing out everybody. calling a member of congress a traitor. calling a guy who wrote this that he's something wrong with him. he didn't write it. he had a lawyer write it for him. or he's a spy. no, he's not a spy. he's an intelligence officer somewhere in the united states government who sat down and wrote this out. he didn't slip it to a newspaper.

he didn't go on television and discuss it. he put it into the system like he was supposed to do. j. >> you think he's a patriot? >> sure he is. any reason he's not a patriot? i used to see some of these things when they came in over the transom through the objection means of getting something up. and i think he is a patriot. i don't see anything to suggest he's doing anything that is improper. and as you know, his paper has now come out after going through all the channels. he didn't break free and go talk to the press. he let the system hand itself. the paper he put out has a lot of consistency with what a lot of white house put out. we need to get the inquiry done as quickly as possible and stop calling people traitors and calling them spies and using all of these names of degradation when all we're trying to do is find the answers.

let's cooperate in the congress and get an answer to it and move it on. >> do you think nancy pelosi is doing the right thing? >> absolutely, and i think it was very interesting in listening to her when she talked about this. i thought she was very measured and serious. talked about the constitution, and saw it as a process. i think it wasn't easy. i think that nothing is easy in terms of making a decision like that. but i think she respects the institution. i think we both have talked about the importance of the institution and the constitution. there is -- it's set up in a way that congress has a responsibility here. and i think the question is the one you asked, what was this phone call about? it is possible that a president will make a mistake in talking to some other leader on an issue that is state managed which is why, in fact, you have other

people on the phone and you can say you might want to have worded that differently and have somebody follow up. this had nothing to do with state business as far as -- and nobody kind of said anything about it except this man or woman that has been the whistleblower. >> what do you think the republican party's responsibility is? you're a life-long republican. >> i wouldn't quite say that. >> let me put it differently. the republican party desperately wanted you to be its presidential candidate -- >> that's not true either, but okay. >> let me try it another way. >> some did. >> no. you were a very important figure in the republican party. >> yes. >> what's there -- >> i'm actually right. i'm not going to argue the case. as such an important republican, do you worry that the party is putting party or maybe even trump before country?

>> let me start by saying i had no political affiliation during my first 35 years in government in the army. as a career military army, i had no party. it was only when i left and there was attention being give ton me about running for politics that i said no, it's not me. and i identified myself as a republican. but i also made it clear to people that i was a republican who was ronald reagan's national security adviser. i was a republican who worked with george herbert walker bush and worked for george w. bush. i'm a moderate republican who believes that we should have a strong foreign policy, strong defense policy. but we have to look out for our people. and we ought to work hard to make sure we're one country, one team. and so on that basis, i called myself a republican. but in the state of virginia, you really are nothing. you can be anything you want any day of the week. >> what do you think -- >> to answer your question, the republican party has got to get

a grip on itself. right now republican leaders and members of the congress, both senate and house, are holding back. because they're terrified of what will happen, any one of them if they speak up. will they lose a primary? i don't know why that's such a disaster, but will they lose a primary? so they need to get a grip. and when they see things that are not right, they need to say something about it. because our foreign policy is in shambles right now in my humble judgment. i see things happening that are hard to understand. a couple weeks ago the president put a circle around southeast alabama, saying it's going to get hit by a hurricane. he put it on top of the meteorology prediction. the meteorologists said no, and in my time, in her time, one of us would have gone to the president and said mr. president, you screwed up. we've got to fix it and we'll put out a correction. you know what they did? they ordered the commerce

department to go out and back up whatever the president said. this is not the way the country is supposed to run. and congress is one of the institutions that should be doing something about this. all parts of congress. the media has a role to play. we all have a role to play. we've got to remember -- [ applause ] >> we've got to remember that all of these pieces are part of our government. executive branch, congress, supreme court, and the state. we have to remember the constitution started with we the people, not me the president. next on gps, more with secretaries albright and powell. i'll ask them about the foreign policy of this scandal engulfing america. about ukraine and the struggle with its bear of a neighbor, russia.

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back now to my interview with former secretaries of state collin powell and madeleine albrig albright. i talked to them as part of the jefferson series of lectures. talk a little bit about what russia is doing in ukraine. this whole scandal over the last few weeks at the heart of it is a country, ukraine, desperately trying to create its own independence and desperately trying to survive against a fairly constant brauj of

attacks. >> most countries don't change their geographical position. russia did. they're not as big as then a economy is bad, but they're being run by a kgb officer. he has a plan which is how to undermine the democracies in central and eastern europe and in other places. i think we have to be aware of that. and ukraine is the example of it where it actually became taking land and the question is how we react to it. they also are expanding their influence in the middle east. all of a sudden they are really players there, and i think that it's -- it was a gift to them in this national security strategy to make them equivalent to china, but they really are out there militarizing information, trying to divide us from our allies. and i am concerned about what they're doing. >> when the president froze the military aid to ukraine, you

know that that struggle, do you think the ukrainians worried that something had changed that american foreign policy had changed or that they accept the president's argument or trying to get money as well? >> i have to say i thought the obama administration didn't do enough about ukraine, frankly. and so when the trump people began to talk about doing something for ukraine, i thought that was the right thing to do. it's very hard to tell how the ukrainians interpreted it. and i think they did see it as okay, so we're now back in the soup without any help, and i -- the russians are using a variety of ways to undermine the stability of the ukrainians and generally, and i do think we need to watch out for that. and the fact that the president thinks that he can play with it in that particular way, i think is what is dangerous. >> i certainly agree with

madeli madeline with respect to russia and what it's doing, but it's mostly soft little touches. they're doing military stuff in syria. in other places they're doing things. what they're doing with cyber security and doing with those kinds of tools is to gain influence around europe and every place they can in europe. that's what the chinese have been doing with their initiative. they you said, but it's not just influence. that is an economic giant they're putting in place. and to go from china all the way through the channel into london. and so they are doing things that are exciting. that are attracting people, buying them influence, some of them are going broke with the chinese deal they get, but nevertheless, what is our equivalent to something like that? we're cutting foreign aid, because they don't contribute enough. yes, they do. or they don't give anything to ukraine. we're the only ones. you look at the numbers, our

european friends have give an lot more to ukraine than we have. and so we've got to see this thing realistic, and not always think that there's a war coming. but at the same time being ready for it. i always like to be ready for anything that comes along. but at the same time let's use our common sense to see what really is good or not good. >> what is the thing that gives you the most hope when you look around the world, when you look at america today? what is the thing you hold onto? >> in my book and -- by the way, there's no speech or book ever written that doesn't quote robert frost. so in my book i say the older i am, the younger are my teacher. and what gives me hope for the young people. i think that they really are very forward-leaning, looking, gretta, a little swedish girl, what guts it took to go to the u.n. to tell them what jerks they are. and i know my students, i find

very interesting. and that they work hard. i think the thing that i would like to make sure of is that the young people are engaged. that they don't just think it will happen. that their smarts and their capabilities. what gives me hope is the next generation. >> i have confidence in the american people. i've seen bad times in this country. this is not the worst time i've lived through. i still think when i was going to vietnam the first time and president kennedy was killed the day i came home on my first tour. four years later bobby kennedy and martin luther king were killed. we had race riots and drugs and a recession. and the vice president of the united states resigned in disgrace. if that wasn't bad enough, the president of the united states resigned in disgrace. and the soviet union and china were saying this is exactly what linden said would happen.

but guess what. we returned to our base bis. in came jerry ford, a simple midwesterner never elected to be president of the united states, and he sort of stabilized us. he used to trip down steps a lot, but we loved it. you know? jerry, you're just like me. you know? he was one of us. he stabilized the country. took a big risk by pardoning nixon and jimmy carter came along. some difficulties but we were moving in the right direction. and then one of the presidents who i really, really treasure was ronald reagan. and he just came in and said it's morning in america. you know? >> it's morning again in america. >> and we said yes, and we sort of followed that and picked up the baton again. we're going with it. but that's not what's happening now. everything is a war. everything is a fight.

everything is a disruption in congress. congress can't get its work done because it gets disrupted and they can't agree. and this is a dangerous time for us. but, you know, i believe in the american people. they have more judgment than we sometimes give them credit for. and they will fix it. as long as they know where to go to help fix it and how to get it done. and i think they have that inherent knowledge, and so i believe in us. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you, fareed. and our thanks to the new albany foundation for hosting that event. next on gps, we'll dig deeper into the ukrainian side of the story. ann is back to make sense of it all. how do you make red lobster's

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we learned much more about the ukraine side of the whistleblower sorry this week. to help us make sense of all of this, i'm joined again by ann applebaum, a foreign affairs columnist for washington post. she's the author of "red famine stalin's war on ukraine". ann, why is ukraine playing such a big role in all of this? like, if you step back, is there -- what explains this, you know, why are we -- why did ukraine become such a large part of this story? >> it's very important to remember that donald trump brought ukraine into american politics when he hired paul manafort to be his ukraine manager. paul manafort spent most of the previous decade in ukraine. he lived in kiev.

he was profoundly and closely identified with ukraine's former president. he's the president who was -- escaped from the country following mass demonstrations in 2014. >> he was the pro russian president. >> he was pro russian president who was profoundly corrupt, who altered the constitution and sought to take power, who enriched his family and his son, who built a villa with gold taps and all kinds of vulgar art objects. that was manafort's link to ukraine. when he brought manafort, he brought his methods and tactics and friends. this is the originen. this is why ukraine became part of u.s. politics. >> do you think there's more to uncover here? because poroshenko was involved in some of the issues in fact he was the one being asked by bide

t -- biden to fire the prosecutor. >> remember that -- the former president fell after the protests and president poroshenko came to power after a free election. one of the things poroshenko began to do was investigate the previous president including the relationship with paul manafort. in 2018 those investigations were stopped. it has always been assumed whether there was pressure from the trump administration or not, that poroshenko stopped the investigation into manafort because he didn't want to irritate president trump. >> and now president zielinski seems to have succumbed to the pressure and has announced that he will investigate or they will review the investigation of the company that joe biden's son worked at. >> yes. i mean, so one of the oddities of this story is the prosecutor who was -- who originally began investing in that company stopped the investigation, and

stopped several other investigations. and joe biden when he was the white house's envoy to ukraine asked them, you know, was condemning that. in other words, he was condemning the prosecutor who had refused to investigate his son's company and many other companies. so the reopening of the investigation may be a gesture to the trump white house. it may be legitimately picking up the pieces. it doesn't necessarily tell us anything. but certainly the ukrainian government does now feel under huge pressure to carry out that investigation and to follow up on some of trump's conspiracy theories about the mueller investigation and manafort and ukraine. you tweeted recently people shouldn't talk about this really as a story of ukrainian corruption. it's really more about corruption in washington. >> absolutely. look, this is a story about a president abusing his office, abusing his privilege as the

leader of u.s. foreign policy to extract dirt from ukraine. this is a white house which -- in which the president is personally profiting off the fact that he's the president and his children are as well. the u.s. banks and u.s.-linked tax havens are one of the things that have made it possible for people to steal money and launder money from places like ukraine. the united states is implicated in creating the kinds of corruption we see all over the world. and the fact that we don't stop it. we refuse to stop it indicates that our system is deeply a problem as well. >> ann applebaum, always a pleasure. next on gps, if you thought the power of labor unions died with jimmy of fa, think about. i'll tell you what the gm strike says about workers and wages in america when we come back. ...depend® silhouette™ briefs feature maximum absorbency, beautiful colors and an improved fit for a sleek design and personal style.

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were unionized in 1954. in 2018 that number was 10.5%. one of the lowest rates among rich countries. one of the reasons for the decline is historical as the long-time labor reporter steven greenhouse documents in his book. ronald reagan's administration fired thousands of striking air tro traffic controllers. why else has the power of unions declined? globalization and technology have rewired the technology. the american economy is now focussed on the service sector and unions tend to be less prevalent there, also among part time and contractors. and the ranks of those have swelled. all these trends translate to

unimpressive wage growth for the middle class and dwindling benefits for full-time workers. perhaps that's why there's a new renewed vigor in strikes n a nuclear option for workers who have little to bargain with but their own labor. in 2018 almost half a million workers went on strike. the highest number in 32 years. what is different today greenhouse told gps is the organizers of some of the strikes aren't simply advocating narrow self-interest. they're bargaining for the common good. the massive teacher strikes last year over low pay and budget cuts that crippled public schools. many in red states, west virginia, oklahoma and arizona. places that might not have seemed favorable to unions but teacher's salaries are low in those states. parents got behind them and the teachers won modest raises.

over the past few years organizers helped stage strikes among fast food workers all over the country. part of a campaign called the fight for 15. now several states have enacted $15 minimum wage laws to be rolled out in the coming years. and it's not just low wage workers who are organizing. ed a jurngt professors, journalists are joining. and google employs more contract temps than full-time workers. last week there was a small but symbolic victory. about 80 contract workers in google's offices in pittsburgh voted to join a union. a rare feat for the tech sector which has been resistant to organized labor. the numbers are small but 64% of americans approve of unions today which is close to a 50-year high. as it's written in the ft, workers will only feel more

insecure in the future as yields on retirement funds fall and the cost of household expenses like pharmaceuticals rise. that means more segments of the middle class will be in trouble, and it's argued that will lead to an eventual shift from wealth creation to wealth redistribution. all of this means a lot more people could start organizing. next on gps, we'll go inside the u.s./china tad wrade war with singapore's prime minister. but you don't feel good. with polycythemia vera, pv, symptoms can change so slowly over time you might not notice. but new or changing symptoms can mean your pv is changing. let's change the way we see pv. you track and discuss blood counts with your doctor. but it's just as vital to discuss changing symptoms as well. take notice and take action. discuss counts and symptoms with your doctor. visit takeactionpv.com

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especially striking this week. president xi paraded tanks and troops down the avenue of eternal peace in beijing to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the people's republic of china. there was showdowns in and around hong kong. one man who was surely watching both spectacles closely was my next guest, the prime minister of singapore, lee hsien loong. his city state keeps close ties with china. singapore also has a very close relationship with the united states. add in the fact that it's the largest port in southeast asia, and you'll see what the ongoing

u.s./china trade war has put that city state in quite a tough spot. i started by asking him what he thought of the ongoing situation in hong kong. >> i feel very sorry for the situation which hong kong is in, because they are a city with a lot of talent. a lot of enterprise. a lot of potential. they're right on the doorstep of china, and china has really made -- been a backstop for them which enables them to grow and to overcome many economic rough spots. but at the same time they are part of china, and this is a big psychological change which is not easy for the population to get used to. and there are also issues within hong kong which are fundamental, social issues like housing. fundamentally it's a question of hope for the future, for the young people. and if these are not radically

addressed, i think it is very difficult to overcome the problems. >> are you surprised that the chinese government has not shut down the protests in hong kong using force? >> no, i don't think so. i think the chinese government -- i don't think the chinese government caused this to happen. i think that they are now confronted with this frog in their hands, and what do i do with it? i'm comfortable. it's a problem, but if i do the wrong thing, i may make things a lot worse. i think they're very conscious of that. they hope hong kong is sorted out, but the chief executive has a very difficult task. >> singapore sits in a very uneasy situation. you are very close to china. your economy is increasingly influenced by china, and yet, you have been a very staunch american ally. how difficult is this trade war between the united states and china for you? >> we see that as a problem for us, but, in fact, it's a problem for the world. all of us have depended on

stable u.s. china relations and increasingly close u.s./china cooperation, investments, trade, and other flows of talent and ideas. and the way things are going now, that benign trend is being disrupted. and perhaps even turned around. and i think that's bad for the world. >> you met with president trump. did you convey to him the fear that at least i hear, that it's seeding the field to china, and does he get that? >> i think -- i don't think america is withdrawing. i don't think that is a percepti perception, because america is engaging china actively. it's not a happy engagement right now, but it's not pulling out from the field. i think what we would like to see in asia is the united states engaged actively, not only with china but with also the other

asian countries in southeast asia and east asia, and south asia. and cooperatively constructively, to enable these countries to be -- to have economic links with china at the same time as they have economic links and other links with the united states. and if u.s./china relations are not stable and not amicable, it's much harder for all of us to do that. we will be pressured very hard to choose sides, and it will be a very painful choice. >> for most countries, if they have to choose between america and china, what will they do? >> i think they will be very unhappy. all of your allies and many of your partners, japan, korea, philippines, australia, new zealand, all treaty allies, all of them have china as their biggest trading partner. so if you ask them to choose and say i, therefore, must cut off

my links with my biggest trading partner, i think you will put them in a very difficult position. singapo singapore, we're not an ally. we're a close partner of the united states, but we also have our big e trading links with china. bigger than with the united states. >> what do you think the world of technology is going to look like if the united states continues on the path the trump administration is, which is banning huawei, fearing that there's going to be the chinese technology will have within it a kind of espionage component? will you end up with a bipolar world of two technology systems? >> it was heading in that direction. i think if you take this attitude, it cannot stop with huawei, because it's basically you don't trust them. and you have reason to doubt whether everything can be taken at face value. by the same token, they are unable to trust you. and they will ask why do we

allow your operating systems, your chips, your technology, to rule our economy. or -- and we become hostage to you. so if you go in this way, you must end up bifurcated on -- across a wide range of things in terms of technology, in terms of systems, and the >> how difficult is it for you to navigate, because presumably you'll be asked to choose. you'll have to choose an american technology supply chain or a chinese supply chain. >> and they're asking their partners around the world not to choose the chinese systems. >> and what is the response? >> some partners have agreed to cooperate with the americans. others have concluded that this is a very big ask. >> most have said no, right? >> well, they haven't quite put it like that. >> prime minister, a pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. and we will be right back.

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week, they were confronted with water cannons, tear gas, and for the first time the use of lethal force. the throngs are angry with the local government in hong kong and with the mainland chinese government. a news piece highlights how the rest of the world views china. it brings to my question, which country views china the least favorably? the united states, nigeria, russia or japan. stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. my book of the week is dani daniel markovits' "the meritocracy trap." he says it's become a system

with a sense of exclusion and isolation for those on the outside. this book will make you think hard. the answer to my gps challenge this week is d, japan, where 85% of those seizure vurveyed by th research center have an unfavorable view of china. while the two countries have an animosity, they were on their way to mending fences. the two economies have pushed for a new era of friendship, one that's become more important as china fights its trade war with the united states. but the japanese public is wary, in fact, inside the region, china is viewed as very low among those surveyed. china is viewed negatively, especially among young people, according to pugh. the obvious recession can be seen on the streets of hong

kong. thank you for joining my show this week. i will see you next week. saturdays happen.

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