he told me he hates they view him in totality as a fighter and still believes he can win the race for president. >> thank you very much. i want to head over to chris for cuomo "primetime "primetime." >> i am chris cuomo. welcome to "primetime." it turns out that this president had his campaign manager directing policy on ukraine. let's get after it. >> sources say the united states president directed his secretary of state of energy, rick perry, and two top state department officials to go to jewel yeenl f -- giuliani's blessing for the meeting, quote, if they can

satisfy rudy, they can satisfy the president. that from a person familiar with the meeting. meanwhile the president refusing to cooperate laying down the gauntlet in a loaded eight-page letter from the president's counsel, saying the president's due process rights have been curtailed without a vote to formalize the impeachment process. now, if a vote is held, what could happen? republicans would have the right to argue for more subpoena power. speaker pelosi knows this. she responded this way -- the white house should be warned that continued efforts to hide the truth of the powers, the president's abuse of power from the american people will be regarded as further evidence of obstruction. mr. president, you are not above the law. you will be held accountable. let's see what the course

thinks. let's bring in asha rangappa and j jim. you're going to be on defense with this asha. clinton, they voted with the full chamber and there was a delineation of duties and powers that both sides could access. why don't they do that here? >> well, the house can create its own rules. impeachment is so rare that i think these, you know, few instances don't constitute the kind of precedent that this letter tries to delineate. honestly, chris, this letter is kind of a legal embarrassment. i would not be proud if one of my undergraduate students produced this. it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the impeachment process and what actually takes place in a how inquiry versus in a senate

trial. it conflates the two. >> what's the down side to having a vote? let's assume what we know to be the true motivation, okay? if you hold a vote like that, the republicans have a chance to say what about us? what do we have the ability to do during this? and if nothing else, the optics would be in play of so you're not going to give the president any rights in any of this? he can't interview anybody? clinton's people got to interview people during the ken starr thing. why not do it? >> i don't know what the political motivations are at play. right now they are trying to conduct most of this investigation through the house intelligence committee, which has the purview over this. it could be that by formalizing it, it would then, you know, transfer it to it the judiciary committee. but independent not sure if that's necessarily the reason. i think that either way they've invoked this power. i don't think it really makes a difference in terms of the

grounds on which they are pursuing this. and, you know, if trump really wants a forum in which to clear his name, that's what the senate trial is for. what he's really arguing for is that he wants a full-fledged trial, not that the house has any obligation, just like a prosecutor wouldn't have an obligation to afford a perspective defendant to present witnesses in front of a grand jury. >> jimmy, the legal optics aside, the two for you to deal with are this. one, even if you had that subpoena power, the way it works in committees is that the majority can overrule whatever the minority wants to subpoena. and the reason they can do that is because your party changed the rules in 2015 during the obama administration to empower the majority and silence the minority and they did it because they said they were sick of the

obama administration delaying and denying their requests. so isn't this a problem of your own creation? >> yeah, they have to live with that. but to a certain extent, right, i think asha has it wrong. well, she doesn't have it wrong, she just didn't have it complete. the reason why the democrats are doing what they do is because they can do it under the cloak of secrecy and then leak out information that they want to leak out as they see fit so they don't have to tell both sides of the story. the information doesn't come out to the public in a way that tells both sides. that's why they're doing what they're doing. >> but the republicans -- >> plus, let's face it. they didn't want these democrats that are in popular trump districts to have to take that vote. so they're trying to protect the folks in trump districts from having to take a vote on impeachment because it going to hurt their majority down the road. that's all they're doing. >> they don't have to take the vote. there is no real precedent.

you've only had a couple of cases, there's nothing in the constitution and there's nothing in any procedure to do it. even if they did do it, do you know how many people president clinton's counsel got to interview during the house impeachment process? >> i don't. >> one. you know who it was? ken starr. you know why that was? because they did it all through the independent counsel. so they gave him this power, they never got to exercise it. that's the point. the republicans were saying they were fair before but they had their own game afoot. what's theans answer to that? >> let me add to that. adam schiff is trampling all over the truth and even "the washington post" agreed he didn't tell the truth a as it relates to what actually went on in that phone call? >> which phone call? >> come on. >> the ukraine phone call in. >> he read it word for word he read it. it was just dramatized but it was real. >> he made it up.

oh, we dramatized it. >> come on! that's a lean argument. >> he paraphrased it. when the president does it, it is a lie. >> you would call him a liar. >> can i get in here? >> asha, go ahead. >> i mean, listen, what we have right now is a prima fascia case, we have this primary transcript of his transcript. if he has expulltory evidenculp information, it would be from this call, including ambassador sondla sondland, who was ready to testify today. he has the opportunity to present exculpatory evidence if he has it and the fact that he is preventing witnesses from testifying kind of tells you where they are right now. >> they're making a push to try to say that -- hold on, jimmy.

they're trying to make a point this is illegitimate. let's say you're right and some judge were to say you didn't start the impeachment inquiry the right way, you got to have a vote. >> no judge is ever going to see that. this is a political process. that's why when we start talking about house subpoenas, they don't carry the same weight as court subpoenas. >> but that's where you're wrong. your oversight capacity under the constitution of congress is real and righteous. >> oh, it's real but the subpoena power isn't as powerful as that as a court of law and it's designed that way. >> jimmy, you guys put in a lot of these subpoena powers. you're now saying we don't have to follow any subpoenas unless it's an impeachment. since when does congressional oversight not matter?

>> then you have schiff demanding folks come in within a certain time frame and come in without counsel. they're not giving them time, they're failing to follow the process so they can do this all under secrecy when -- >> it's not secret. >> chris, can i just break this? the breakdown here is what the trump administration is arguing, i mean, they're already arguing in court that the president can't be, you know, investigated, let alone, you know charged with any kind of criminal, you know, crime in the regular court -- >> immune from all criminal process. >> they're now also saying they just kind of don't like the constitution and they don't want to cooperate with it because it makes the president look bad. it's really what the argument is. it's not a legal argument. it is a sad, you know, kind of toddler-like argument and they

are really desperate. >> separation of powers. >> separation is a real argument it and is in court right now in terms of getting grand jury testimony. we'll see how that case comes out. but there are larger questions that have political questions attached to them and answers will be political as well. asha rangappa and jimmy, thank you. >> senator amy klobuchar, what does she think about what we've learned thus far and this president and ukraine and noncompliance next. as a cio, you want to move your business forward. but when your team is always dealing with device setups, app updates, and support calls... you can never seem to get anywhere. that's why dell technologies created unified workspace, powered by vmware. ♪

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rules, you're not respecting our due process, you're not being fair, though that's why we're not complying in any way. and right after the letter got sent, then a report came out that once again reminded why this is being conducted the way it is. turns out that when the energy secretary, rick perry, who became part of the ukraine dynamic, came back and the said i think you should work this guy and the president said go to rudy. if you can convince rudy, i'm in. really? let's bring in senator and presidential candidate amy klobuchar. >> i was great to see that last segment. seemed like you became some kind of judge yourself. >> no. only in a kangaroo court. >> as i was listening to your lead-in here thinking about if i was president, the thought that

you have your energy secretary come to you and say, hey, we should work with this person and your answer is not, okay, let's talk to the secretary of state, let's get working on this, instead the answer is go to my private attorney. this just smells from the very beginning and i think it's part of the pattern that we have seen here, chris, where this president is putting his own private attorney, his own private interests, he's own partisan, political interests in front of the interests of our country. instead of talking to the new head of ukraine about russian invasions and the annexation of crimea and what we should do, he's talking about digging dirt on an opponent. or how about the president of china, where he's in the middle of a big trade war, everything should be on the focus of getting trade negotiations on track and again we're hear he's talking to him about digging up dirt on an opponent.

i am shocked by this letter and their obstructionism. i think george conway, kellyanne conway's husband said it best, he said this letter was pure hackery and garbage and that no member of the bar should have signed their name on to it. >> they're making largely political arguments. why shouldn't the democrats say, look, we'll hold a chamber vote. the rules were changed by the republicans after clinton so that even if the minority had subpoena power, the majority has the republicans go and ballet themselves. they changed the rules. why not have a vote? >> that's going to be up to the speaker. i know they are working through this evidence. we are just at the very beginning. we have all seen the partial transcript, the summary of that call, which was shocking and new information about another whistle-blower potentially coming forward.

there's a lot out there. my concern is i'm not that surprised that the administration is afraid to have these ambassadors come forward and testify but it is just wrong. can you not do that. they're withholding evidence from the house of representatives. and i would also add -- >> you don't have any concerns about how the house is conducting it? you guys will have to deal with it if it gets to you. you don't have any concerns about this not be open? >> no, i don't have concerns. i may have concerns in the future. i certainly don't right now. at some point we got to remember the trial would be in the senate. that is where the president makes his case and it appears they're confusing has to two they can try to stop their ambassadors from testifying, i guess, and it will go up to court and we'll see what happens. but there's going to be former white house officials that are no longer in that administration that know stuff, people that have been in the room with the

president, and that's what i'm most interested in, in hearing what they ne have to say. and the white house, i don't think they can stop them from testifying. i'm real concerned about the former ambassador to ukraine, yovanovitch, someone who i found to be a very credible person. she is still with the state department, i believe. are they going to try to block her testimony? there's some thought after seeing this letter that that could happeni've seen her interact with republican senators during the trump administration it was simply to talk about what was going on. it wasn't one bit partisan. so i am really interested to see if they're going to try to block her and there's going to be tons of other witnesses that are not currently employed by the white house since so many of those people who were in the room with

the president, even over the summer, dan croats and bolton and some of the other leaders and generals are no longer there. >> senator lindsey graham said he would invite mr. giuliani, assuming he wanted to take such an invitation. what would be the main thing you'd want to her in order to bring in about his interactions with the president, about the tie-in with the presidenting of the foreign aid. arkting lobs i have a feeling that there would be a lot of questions from the democratic side of the judiciary committee. and it i ironic because senator graham should be conducting more investigations into what happened here and we should be

having more hearings. but that hasn't happened. so the only witness he's put forward so far is rudy giuliani. and i'd love to ask him questions. >> senator graham, the man who said back during the thank you juror joining us as always. >> thank you, chris. it great to be on. always a plesh. >> if there's nothing wrong with this perfect call from u crean, with mr. andrew mccabe next. ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on ♪ blow a kiss into the sun

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if the president's call with ukraine was as perfect as he says, why do half a dozen sources familiar with what happened after he hung up cell cnn that there was this scrambling in all directions to contain the damage? let's get perspective from the mind of former fbi deputy director mr. andrew mcgabe. good to have you back on the show. >> good to be here. >> what does it mean to you, trump aides scrambled to alert lawyers of their concerns. at least one national security council official alerted the white house's national security lawyers about the concerns. the white house lawyers thought they could deal with the situations but then those same lawyers later ordered the transcript moved to that highly classified server. >> yeah. so this is really troubling for

i think the president and the administration. on a couple of levels. first, as you pointed out in your lead-in, it really undercuts their argument that this was a perfect call and that nothing -- that there was no problem here. essentially what you have now is what started out as a one-car collision has now turned into like a three-car major pile-up. the white house knew about concerns with this call first from the general counsel of another intelligence agency who called and put them on notice a complaint had come to their attention. second, from the i.c.i.g. when they found out there was an official whistle-blower complaint and now we find out that their own people inside the wou woes we white house were so concerned about this, they raised them with the national attorneys. they are their own folks and their own infrastructure there

and that is -- that's a particularly -- that's a tough hit, i think, on the administration today. >> now, people will say oh, you and your anonymous sources, who are these people? bring up the text messages from volker, from acting ambassador taylor, the guy put in to replace the woman they didn't like for pushing back on this kind of stuff and ambassador to eu sondland, who was supposed to testify today. taylor says, as i said on the phone, i think it's crazy to withhold security assistance to help with a political campaign. this was the second time taylor had said this in this thread, by the way. then sondland says, bill, i blow you' -- believe you're incorrect about the president's intentions. the president has been crystal clear, no quid pro quo of any kind.

there's a gap in the text thread where sondland went to trump reportedly and was told that. anonymous sources, you want to dismiss them, that's the heart of journalism, that's fine. the acting ambassador had the same concern about this. >> that's right. as an investigator, chris, this is what you hope for when you start down the investigative path, that each step that you take uncovers another witness, another text message, another piece of evidence. that's what we've seen today. look every day there's been a steady drip of developments along the investigative line. i think the text messages are some of the toughest pieces of evidence that the president and the administration are going to have to deal with. they start out with references to rudy giuliani that are remarkable. he plays such an influential role in these two diplomats' lives and what they're going to be doing with ukraine. they talk about him as if they

need to get his approval before they set up calls with aides of the president of ukraine and that sort of thing and they kind of top off with the references that you pointed to. >> investigatively andrew, when does it become more than style points? okay, i get it, you don't like wa what i did, you don't like how i used rudy, i get it. that's my discretion about how i do the job and how i feel about the countries i'm going to give a lot of our money, too. but if you don't like it, vote me out but it's no the a high crime. >> that's a good argument for the president to make. the presidents have a lot of leeway there. where it falls apart is in his intent with this particular exchange with this leader, and that appears to have been to collect detrimental information

on his domestic political rival from a foreign source. that is clearly illegal. that's where it gets very hard to write this off as just typical diplomatic, you know, elbow banging, that sort of thing. >> i want to ask you one quick thing. what would it mean to you, the adam schiff situation where he said we didn't speak to the whistle-blower, we would like to. the whistle-blower reportedly went to a member of the staff of the committee. i include that as "we" and that makes it a misleading statement at a minimum by schiff. what's your analysis? >> that's the classic self-inflicted wound. you don't want to make these mistakes as you're conducting an investigation. you want everything you do to be perfect, every piece of evidence to be absolutely pristine but frequently people say things that are impertinent or poorly constructed and it appears that the chairman has done that in this instance. it's unfortunate because i think

the president will use this to become a distraction from the main point. it ju it's just something he's going to have to deal with as we go forward. >> coming up, a person who has some big jobs in government. what are his concerns about the democrats and this process. i know that's not nlks but he know as lot about politics as well. we'll bring him in next. this is also hal's heart. and this is hal's relief, knowing he's covered. this is hal's heart. and it's beating better than ever. this is what medicare from blue cross blue shield does for hal. and with easy access to quality healthcare, imagine what we can do for you. this is the benefit of blue.

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. we know for context that the president says his call with ukraine was perfect. yet the white house refuses to let anyone still in the administration talk to congress. instead, they're arguing over the process. here to make their case and also his perspective on this new development we have the president's former deputy assistant fred fleitz. >> good to be here. >> are you feeling better? >> yes, i was at a conference yesterday. >> we wanted to have you back. i'm glad you're here now. put on your investigator hat for a second. the idea of after the call people scrambling, talking to lawyers about how to clear it

up, basically evidencing what we saw from acting ambassador taylor in terms of, hey, are we really conditioning this aid on this deal with biden? and then we know that moves forward to a point where the energy secretary comes back from ukraine, says to the president, i think you should work with guy in ukraine, i think he's legit, wants to do right. the president says go to rudy, convince him, you get my okay. what's your take? >> i see a very biased process here that is not following press detective, but i'm more concerned that the democrats are trying to impeach a sitting president using a secret witness that the american people will not be allowed to hear from in a secret hearing where his appearance and voice will be obscured so the republicans cannot learn who this person is and this person may even testify in a secret location. you know, chris, this is what we

see in banana republics or communist china or soviet union. i think it's an outrage. we have to have an open process. the republicans have to have the same rights that happened in 1974 and 1998 for an impeachment process. >> one, a lot of that would be reserved for the senate trial. that's when you have the need for this kind of exchange. we never had a process in 1974 like the one we have now, nor did we have it in 1998 because what you had with clinton was an independent counsel. and when it came time to have him in the house, they only presented one witness. i know you remember all this fred but for those at home. so the democrats, the counsel for then president clinton only got to deal with one witness and it was ken starr. and the biggest problem procedurally if you want to go down that road but i want to go back to your analysis of what these developments are, the reason that the majority has

subpoena power right now and the ability to call the shots is because your party gave it to the majority in 2015. they changed the rules coming out of clinton. they changed it again with obama. and the reason they changed it saying the majority has the right, in every committee you get a majority vote and the reason is the obama administration has delayed and won't deal with any of our requests. >> i thought your first guest had trouble answering this, ash, -- >> asha rangappa. >> the fact that democrats didn't fully take advantage of subpoena right doesn't mean they shouldn't give them to republicans now. the house makes its own rules. pt rules could be set the way

they were in -- >> why shouldn't democrats a different per expectative than the republicans did? >> it doesn't matter what happened in 2015. it doesn't matter what the rules are now. the house can make whatever rules -- look, this is a very grave matter. we have to have fairness. we have to make sure -- >> was it fair when the republicans changed the rules so that democrats -- >> it's are the irrelevairrelev. >> really? i'm saying in 1998, there was no real subpoenaing and in '74 it was a totally different process. >> they had the right to do so. they are given these rights, given subpoena -- this is not just for a trial. this is for an investigation. a lot of people have been on tv today saying, well, the republicans don't need all these subpoena rights, rights to call witnesses because there's not going to be a trial in the house there will be an investigation in the house. >> but they're present on all the committees, fred. >> but they don't have the right

to call witnesses and that's something nancy pelosi doesn't want to do because you know why. the republicans will call hunter biden. they can't to know why was he getting $50,000 a month from some shady ukrainian gas company. >> even if they did call hunter biden, because of the rules established by your parties, they can knock it down -- >> i said that rule can be reset. >> so it was okay for the republicans to change the rule for advantage so the democrats should change is back to republicans advantage again. >> the democrats should set it back backfairly. >> there is no guidiae ianance constitution. it seems you don't like the power playing to advantage. i understand that. that's what make the american

people so frustrated with the process. >> the constitution only gives the house the right to conduct an impeachment investigation. but we have a precedent from '74 and '98. nancy pelosi won't explain why she won't use the '98 precedent and the on reason is she wants to keep the ability for republicans to call witnesses down. >> why would you open it up so the republicans can have their own parallel investigations. you want hundred ehunter biden . should we have eivanka trump on? shouldn't you have ivanka on, too? >> i'm sure that really has nothing to do with this. >> really? >> ivanka trump wasn't involved in anything illegal.

>> and was hunter biden? >> nancy pelosi wants a long, drawn-out process where the -- >> the '98 precedent -- fred, the '98 precedent was to have an independent counsel. you don't have it as apples to apples on this. what you don't like is you're being closed out. by the way, i agree with you. i think this should be as open and fair along with the precedent of expediency. fred, if we changed the names it, would chamber of commerce the ga -- change the game for you. if i said obama called up the president and said go get dirt against me and that's what i want, you would have a totally different analysis than you have right now. >> no, i wouldn't. we have to go the extra mile when we're talking about the impeachment of a president to

make sure we have a completely fair process where the president's concerns get weighed fair live and -- >> i hear you but as a former intel official you had no comment about the energy secretary going to the president and being told to go to rudy. you have no common about this mad scramble about everybody trying to cover up for this. as an init be tell person you have no -- >> i think you're changing the subject from the process. nancy pelosi can't answer why -- >> she couldn't have to. >> he doesn't have to, you're right, but she should use the precedent so the american people can be sure this is a fair process and but, fred, i take your argument on it and your concerns about fairness. that is something everybody can

share. >> thanks for having me on. thank you. >> i wonder what one of america's political trail blazers, you know, we've been here before. you can take someone saying what fred just said and even someone what i'm arguing back right now, we've had this argument before and we had somebody tell us the right way through and we have forgotten what she told to us do. a champion who never gets enough credit, who did the right thing during a much harder time than now and i have the argument next, all factually. ess. when you've got public clouds, and private clouds, and hybrid clouds- things can get a bit cloudy for you. but now, there's the dell technologies cloud, powered by vmware. a single hub for a consistent operating experience across all your clouds. that should clear things up.

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you have to remember we have been here before. the democrats made the same arguments during clinton as the republicans now about how unfair impeachment is. the republicans want more subpoena power in the oversight of trump. but during obama, they changed rules to take subpoena power from the minority, and their rationale, oh, the irony, the obama administration employed

unprecedented delay and refused to comply. be clear. impeachment has always been political, and it has been about correcting and punishing abuses of power, not crimes. that's for the courts. but that is not our biggest problem right now. it's the tactics of division. that's what we're all recoiling at the most -- the division, the tactics, the smears, the lies by this president especially and those around him because from him, the most should be expected. but we've seen that before too. and just as now, there were calls for self-respecting, real conservatives, real republicans to get up and say, you know what? i don't want to win this way. i don't want to see the republican party win like this. while it might be a fleeting victory for the republican party, it would be a more lasting defeat for the american people. it is high time that we stop thinking politically as republicans and democrats about

elections and started thinking patriotically as americans about national security based on individual freedom. i don't want to see the republican party ride to political victory on the four horsemen of calumny -- fear, ignorance, bigotry, smear. doesn't that sound perfect? it should. those words were perfect when spoken by one brave woman. she never gets enough credit for chopping down senator joe mccarthy. we always think about the "have you no decency sir" quote, right? that was joseph welsh, chief counsel for the u.s. army. he wasn't an elected. that was not the seminal moment that turned it all around. it was the declaration of conscience by senator margaret chase smith, the first woman to hold seats in the house and then senate. she was from maine. she even got six republicans to sign onto the declaration with her. 1823 words.

less than that transcript of that perfect ukraine call. but, wow, did she resonate. listen. >> i believe with all my heart that we must not become a nation of mental mutes, blindly following demagogues. >> mental mutes blindly following demagogues. she reminds those in office, people are sick of the exaggerations and hallucinations in the name of crushing opponents and just finding advantage. she reminded them, your duty was to the people, not to party alone. and, you know, they were faced with a real enemy back then, communism. the irony is you could argue russia has never had a greater effect on our society than they did in infecting the mind of mccarthy and his lot except for 2016, when they seemed to find a way to poison all of us to the point that we're in right now, fighting each other over so little. remember the words of margaret

chase smith. this is a moment that will always be remembered. it must reflect our best efforts. an impeachment cannot be about irresponsible sensationalism or smears of those on any side. the people remain divided on the prospects for this impeachment not so much because of questions about what this president did, but questions about whether the rest of those in power are really in a position to judge him. are they really better than what they seem to oppose, or are politicians just switching jerseys in the same game we've seen before? power and advantage. please give the people a reason to believe again, mr. and mrs. office holder. if you are not man or woman enough to say it out loud like margaret chase smith, then listen to her words and let it guide your actions. now, if you've been on social media in the last 48 hours,

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all right. i got a bolo for you. be on the lookout. president bush and ellen degeneres sat together at the cowboys game. what? they don't agree on key political issues. they should hate each other. wrong, says ellen. >> here's the thing. i'm friends with george bush. in fact, i'm friends with a lot of people who don't share the same beliefs that i have. we're all different, and i think that we've forgotten that that's okay that we're all different. >> hmm, refreshing. and you know what i liked even more? no disrespect to ellen, but this

was closer to home for me. somebody who took that and wanded to remind people listening to his show and shows like his that they got to be nice to people. you got to disagree with decency. who was it? my mentor and friend on fox news, neil cavuto. he said something that everybody needs to hear. take a listen. >> though i don't know them all personally, i can personally vouch for how good rachel maddow is to her staff because they tell me, or how funny don lemon can be making fun of himself, or how even funnier chris cuomo can be faking fun of don. that's why i bristle when colleagues anywhere are called fake. >> he's dead right. my foot is funnier than don is. but you see what neil was trying to do, and this is why he's always been great at his craft no matter where he works, okay? you got to be good to people. you've got to be kind. even when you disagree, you've got to do it with decency.

we need that more from the people in high places like neil cavuto. he's a legend over there and rightly so. rush, one of my favorite rock bands, they had a song called "closer to the heart" and one of the lyrics is the men who hold high places -- men or women -- must be the ones who start. mold a new reality closer to the heart. we are at our best when we look for what brings us together even in impeachment, even at a time like this, be your best, and that means being good to others. thanks for watching. "access" with d. lemon right now. >> i'm going to let that little slight slide. >> the truth hurts, brother. >> i'm surprised you didn't say your face is funnier than me. >> oh. >> that is the truth. >> i see what you took away from my message. >> you know, there's a lot to delve into when it comes to this message. personally, i have always admired neil cavuto. i think he's a straight shooter. i think he's one of the best