look at him differently. he's a 78-year-old man who had a heart attack. but they hope they view him as a fighter. and he still believes he can win the race for president. >> wish him the best. chris. thank you, anderson. i am chris cuomo and welcome to primetime. and more proof comes out that this president had his personal attorney directing policy on ukrain. what happens now? let's get after it. so here's the latest. sources tell cnn when you chronchro ukrain's president sought to meet with president trump, the united states president directed his secretary energy, rick perry, and two top state department officials to go to giuliani for his blessing on the meeting. go to rudy for the president's blessing. the quote.

if they can satsify rudy, they can satisfy the president. that from a person familiar with the meeting. meanwhile the white house is refusing to cooperate with what it calls an illegitimate effort to overturn the results of the election. referringing to the impeachment inquiry. and one of the main arguments? the president's due process rights have been curtailed without a vote to formalize the impeachment process. now if a vote is held, what could happen? republicans would have the right to argue for more subpoena power. speaker pelosi knows this. she responded this way. the white house should be warned that continued efforts to hide the truth of the powers, the president's abuse of powers from the american people will be regarded as furtherer evidence of obstruction.

mr. president, you not above the law and will be held accountable. let's see what the court thinks. let's bring into session gapa and shoelts. asha on defense with this proposition. nixon, clinton. they voted with the full chamber. this is what we're going to do with impeachment and in that vote there was a it delineation of duties and powers that both sides could access. why don't they do that here? >> well, the house can create its own rules and impeachment is so rare that i think these few instances don't constitute the kind of oppressdant that this letter tries to delineate. honestly this letter is kind of a legal embarrassment. i would not be proud if one of my undergraduate students produced this because it

demonstrate as fundamental misunderstanding of the impeachment process and what takes place in a house inquiry verse as senate trial. it conflats the two. >> let's assume what we know to be the true motivation. if you hold a vote like that, the republicans have a chance to say what about us? what do we have the ability to do during this and the optics would be unplay of so you're not going to give the president any rights? he can't interview anybody. clinton's people got to interview people during the ken starr thing. why not do it? >> i don't know what the political motivations are at play. right now what they are try doing is conduct most of this investigation through the house intelligence committee, which has the purview over this. it could be that by formalusiiz formalizinging it would transfer

it to the judiciary kmuty. either way they've invoked this power. it doesn't mock a difference in terms of the grounds in which they're pursuing this. if trump really wants a forum in which to clear his name, that's what the senate trial is for and what he's arguing for is a full-fledged trial, not that house has any obligation, just like a prosecutor wouldn't have a ford the perspective defendant to present witnesses in front of a grand jury. >> there are two practical problems. arguably three but i'll save one for the follow up. one, even if you had that subpoena power, the way it works in committees is the majority can over rule whatever the minority wants to subpoena and the reason they can do that is because your party changed the rules in 2015 during the obama administration to empower the

majority and sile thnce the minority because they were sick of of the obama administration it delaying and denying their requests. so isn't this a problem of your own creation? >> yeah, they have to live with that. but to a certain extent asha had it wrong, well, not wrong, just incomplete. they can do it under the cloak of secrecy and leak out information that they want to leak out as they see fit. so they don't have to tell both sides of the story. the information doesn't come out to the public in a way that tells both sides. that's why they're doing what they're doing. >> but the republicans are present for all these hearings. >> plus let's face it they didn't want these democrats -- they're in pop wular trump districts to have to take that vote so they're trying to protect those votes from having to take a vote on impeachment because it's going to hurt their

majority down the road. >> they don't have to take a vote. there is no real pressdant. there's nothing in the constitution and nothing in any procedure to do it. can do you know how many people president clinton's counsel got to interview during the impeachment process? >> i don't. >> one. you can know who it was? ken starr. you know why that was? because they did it all through the independent counsel. they gave him his power. they never got to exercise it. they were saying they were fair before but they had their own game afoot. >> let me ask you this. adam schiff is trampling all over -- >> what is he trampling over? >> the truth when he stood up and "washington post" agreed that he didn't tell the truth as relates to what went on in the phone call. >> which phone call? be straight.

the ukrain phone call? it was just dramaatized but it was real. >> when the presidents does it is a lie and you know what you would say? jimmy, you wouldn't call the president a liar. go ahead. >> i mean listen. what we have right now is again and i've said this before a prim primau -- prima facie case. if it's excanical puatory evidence it would be from those working on behalf of this call including ambassador who was ready to testify today. in other words he has the opportunity to present exculpatory evidence if he has

it and the fact he's preventing witnesses from testifying tells you where they are right now. >> hold on a second. they're trying to make a point this is illegitimate. let's say you're right and some judge were to say you didn't start the impeachment inquiry the right way. you got to start a vote. but let's say they did. let's say -- >> that's why the subpoenas, when we talk about house subpoenas, they don't carry the same weight. >> that's where you're wrong. you're oversight capacity is real and righteous and the idea -- hold on, jimmy. here's the thing. you guys put in a lot of these subpoena powers. you did it because you wanted them to be fall eoed. you're now saying we don't have to follow oany subpoenas unless it's an impeachment. since cwhen does congressional

oversight not matter snr >> then you have schiff without the ability to go to counsel k which is certainly something -- >> that's not true. nobody wasn't allowed to have counsel. >> they're not giving them time. they're bullying witnesses to come in. they are falling to follow eoth reason for one reason. sglirlts not secret when republicans are there. not sookerate. >> yeah, the breakdown here is what the trump administration is arguing. i mean they're already arguinging in court that the president can't be investigated let alone charged with any kind of criminal crime. they're now also saying that they kind of don't like the constitution and they're not really -- they don't want to cooperate with it because it makes the president look bad is really what the argument is. it's not a legal argument.

it is a sad kind of toddler-like argument they're making and i think it tells you they're really at a desperate place. >> separations of pow oers is a real argument and it is in court right now. absolutely. it's in court right now in term oz of getting grand jury testimony. we'll see how that case can comes out but there are larger questions that have political questions attached and answers will be political as well. thank you for the arguments. appreciate it. we're going to pick this up with someone that could be one of the president's jurors if the house does vote to impeach. senator amy klobuchar. what does she think about the democrat's responsibility? what does she think about what we've learned this far from this president and ukrain and noncompliance? next.

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these footnotes for the democrats. we're not going to comply. this is a sham. you democrats didn't follow the rules. you're not being fair. so that's why we're not can complying in any way. and right after the letter got sent a report came out that once agon reminded why this is being conducted the way it is. turns out when the energy secretary rick perry, who for some reason wound up being part of the ukrain dynamic and said i think he's the real deal, the president said go to rudy. if you can convince rudy, i'm in. really inlet's bring in presidential candidate and senate judiciary member, omy klobuchar. welcome back that show. >> i was grateful to be on the last segment. seemed like you turn itted into judge yourself.

>> only in a kangaroo court. >> as i was thing about if i was president, the thought that you have your energy secretary say we should work with this person and your answer is not let's talk to thes secretary of state. instead it's go to my private attorney. i think it's part of a pattern where this president is putting his own private attorney, his private interests, partisan political interests in front of the interests of our count cannery. instead of talking to the new head of ukrain about russian invasions and the annexation of crimea and what we should do, he's talking to him about digging dirt on an opponent. or how about the president of china where he's in the middle offf a big trade war, everything should be the focus of negotiations back on track and again we hear that he's talking to hum about digging dirt up on

an oponnant. so that's really at the core what this is about and i'm shocked by this letter and their obstructionism. i think george conway said it best, he said this letter was pure hackry and garbage and that no member of the bar should have signed their name on to it. >> they're making largely political argument. but what about taking the teeth away from them? why shouldn't the democrats say we'll hold a chamber vote . the rules were changed after republican so that the majority has to approve it by committee so you're not going it get what you want anyway and the republicans only blame themselves. they changed the rules. >> that's up to the speaker. i know they're working through this evidence. we have all seen the partial transcript, the summary of the can call, which was shocking and

new information about another whistleblower potentially can coming forward. there's a lot out there. my concern is i'm not that surprised that the administration is surprised to have these ambassadors come forward and testify, but it it is just wrong. you cannot do that. they're with holding evidence from the house of representatives and i would add -- >> you don't have any concerns about how the house is conducting it? you'll have to deal with it what your own procedures are. you don't have any concerns about it not being openb? >> no, i don't have concerns. i certainly don't right now. i think at some point we got to remember the trial will be in the senate. and they're confusing these two trying to mock the case in the letter. they can try to stop their ambassadors from testifying. i guess and it will go up to court and we'll see what happens. but there's going to be former

white house officials no longer in that administration that know stuff er. and that's what i'm most interested in and hearing what they have to say and the white house, i don't think they can stop them from testifying. i'm can concerned about the remember foer ambassador to ukrain who i found to be a very credible person. she is still with the state department i believe. so are they going to try to block her testimony? there's some thought after seeing this letter that could happen. and i've seen her interact with republican senators when i've been in you chron. she actually piped in, skyped in to a town hall meeting. for me with my ukrainian community. hundreds of people there. during the trumped a mun stragz simply to talk about what was going on. wasn't one bit partisan and so i'm interested to see if they're actually going to try to block her and also there's going to be

units of other witnesses not current canly employed by the white house. since so many of those people in the room with the president, even over the summer, dan coats and some of the other leaders and generals are no longer there. >> senator lindsey graham said he would invite rudy giuliani, assuming he wanted to take such an invitation. what would be the main thing you'd want to hear from him? >> i would say brung it on. i know he's trying to put that out as some kind of a smoke screen to bring in some other conspiracy theories they have. ied and endless questions about his interactions with the president of the tie ogof the freezing of the foreign aid. what he was doing acting like he was a state department official when he was there as a privateturny. i have a feeling there would be a lot of questions from the democratic side of the judiciary committee. and it's ironicing because

senator graham should be conducting more investigation and we should have more hearings but that hasn't happened and so the only witness he has so far is rudy giuliani and i would love to ask him questions. >> the reason richard nixon got impeached was because he didn't respond to subpoenas. thank you very much for joining us. >> right. thank you. it's great to be on, chris. thank you. so there's nothing wrong with the perfect call to ukrain, why did so many around the president engage in this mad scramble when he hung up the phone? we're going to break down that brand new cnn intel on the behind the scenes drama with mr. andrew mccabe next. as a financial advisor you have to listen. you listen to your client's goal of sending her daughter to the music school of her dreams. and you help her turn it into reality. principal. we can help you plan for that.

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if the president's call with ukrain was as perfect as he says why do half dozen sources familiar with what happened after he hung up tell cnn there was this scrambling in all directions to contain the damage? let's get perspective from the mund of former fbi director mr. andrew mccabe. >> right. good to be here. >> so what do these mean to you? ta after the call trump aids scramble to tell attorneys of their concerns. at least one official alerted the national security lawyers about the concerns. the white house lawyers thought they could deal with the situation but then those same lawyers later ordered the

transcript moved to that highly classified serverer. >> yeah. so this is really troubling for i think the president and the administration on a couple of levels. first as you pointed out in your lead in. it really undercuts their argument this was a perfect call and that nothing -- there was no problem here. essentially what you have now is what started outa as a one-car can collision is a three-car major pile up. the white house knew about concerns first from the general counsel of another intelligence agency who put them on notice that complaint had come to their attention. second when they found out there was an official whistleblower complaint and now they found out their own people were can concerned about this. they raised the concerns with the national security counsel attorneys. these aren't democrats.

they can't be written off as obama people, they're partisan. they're their own folks and infrastructure and that's a particularly -- that's a tough hit i think on the administration. >> people will say you and your anonymous sources. who are these people? bring up the text messages from volker. from acting ambassador taylor who replaced the woman they did.ant like for pushing back on this kind of stuff and ambassador to sondeland. this was the second time taylor had said this in this thread, by the way and sondeland says the president has been crystal clear no quid pro quo of any kind.

the reporting is, andrew, that sondeland went to the president. there's a gap in the text thread where he went to trump reportedly and was told that. anonymous sources, you wunt to dismiss them? it's the heart of journalism but that's fine. the acting ambassador had a similar cupcern. >> this is what you hope for, that each step you take uncovers another witness, anath ever tot message. like every day there's been a steady drip of developments along the investigative line. i think the tex it messages are some of the toughest pieces of evidence that the president and the administration are going to have to deal with. they start out with references to rudy giuliani that are remarkable. he plays such an influential

role in what they're going to do with the ukrain. they talk about him luke they're going to get his approval and then of course they kind of top off with the references that you pointed to. >> investigatively, when does it become more than style points where the president could say i get it. you don't like what i do. i understand. you think i shouldn't have done it this way. i get it. that's my discretion about how i do the job and how i feel about the countries i'm going to give our money too and this is not a high crime. >> that's a good argument for the president to make. he has enormous authority to conduct foreign policy and these sorts of interactions with foreign leaders. presidents have a lot of leeway. where it falls apart is his intent with this particular

exchange with his leader and that appears to have been to collect detrimental information on his domestic political rival from a foreign source. that is clearly illegal. that's where it gets really hard to write this off as tip canical elbow banging. >> i want to ask you one quick thing. what would it mean to you where he said we didn't sneak whistleblower. we would like to. the whistleblower reportedly went to the member of of the staff of the committee. i include that as we and that makes it a misleading statement at a minimum by schiff. >> you don't want to make these mistakes as you're can condun conducting an investigation. you want every piece of evidence to be pristine but frequently people say things that are

impertinant or poorly constructed and appears that chairman has done that in this instance. it's unfortunate because i think the president will use this to become a distraction from the main point. it's something he's go having to to deal with. >> appreciate it as always. i need to bring in another intelligence vet going that a very different way. what does he think about this internal calamity? what are his concerns about the democrats and this process? i can know that's nottelligence but he knows a lot about pa politics as well. mia's pulse. with pressure rising, and racing. this is also mia's pulse. that her doctor keeps in check, so she can find balance. this is mia's pulse, and now it's more stable than ever. this is what medicare from blue cross blue shield does for mia.

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we know from context that the president says his call with ukrain was perfect and dwlet white house refuses to let anyone in the administration talk to congress. instead they're arguing over the process. there make their case on that and his perspective on the new development we have, the president's former deputy assistant and nse chief of staff, fred flight. welcome back to "prime time." >> i was up late last night at the ace asymmetric threads conference. >> i can't spell that. i'm glad you're here now.

so put on your investigator hat for a second. the idea of after the call people scrambling, talking to lawyers about how to clear it up, basically evidencing what we saw from acting ambassador taylor in term s of are we conditioning the aid on this deal with biden? and we know that moves forward to a point where the energy secretary comes back from ukrain and says from the president i think you should work for this guy. and the president says to him go to rudy. convince him you get my okay. >> i think a lot of this is based on anonymous sources we can't confirm. i see a very bias process not following precedent. i'm more concerned that they're trying to impeach a sitting president using a secret witness that the american people will not be allowed to hear from where his voice will be obscured

so republicans cannot learn who this person is and they may even testify in the secret location. this is what we see in banana republics or the soviet union. this is not the way the american system of government is supposed to operate. we have to have an open process. republicans have the same rights that happened in 1974 and 1998 for an impeachment process. >> one, a lot of that would be reserved for the senate trial. that's when you have the need for this kind of exchange. we never had a process in 1974 like the one we have now. nor did we have in 1998 because with clinton was an independent counsel. and when it came time to have him in the house, they only presented one witness. i can know you remember this but for those at home. so for democrats, the koupsal for then president can clinton only got to deal with one witness and it was ken starr. and the biggest problem

prosiegeerally if you want to go down that road. the reason that the majority has subpoena power right now and the ability to call the shots is because your party gave it to the majority in 2015. they changed the rules can coming out of clinton. they changed it again with obama and the reason they changed it it, saying the majority has the right, the minority in every committee a majority vote and if the minority doesn't have the votes, they don't get the subpoena and the reason is the obama administration has delayed and won't deal with any of of our requests. >> okay. now look. i thought your first guest asha had trouble answering. she couldn't answerer why is pelosi not using the same rules as 1974 and 1998? the fact that they didn't fully take advantage of the subpoena rights doesn't mean they shntd give them to republicans now.

the house makes its own rules. the rules could be set the way they were in 1998. >> why should the democrats have a different perspective on how to deal with delais than republicans did? i'm saying the process should be the same as was establish itted in 1974 and 1998. it >> the house can make whatever rules. this is a very grave matter. we have to have fairness. >> was it fair when the republicans changed the rules so that democrats -- >> that's irrelevant. and that wasn't an impeachment process. >> but i'm saying in 1998 there was no real subpoenaing by democrats. it was done by an independent counsel. in 1974 a different process. >> they were given these rights. and this is for an investigation. a lot of people have been saying republicans don't need rights to call witness withes because there's not a trial in the house. they do because there will be an

investigation in the house. that's why -- >> and they're present on all the committees. >> but they don't have the right to call witnesses and that's something nancy pelosi doesn't want to do and that's because they will call hunter biden. >> but even if she did call -- even if they did call hunter biden, because of the rules established by your party, they could still just knock it down. >> the rule could be reset taz was in 1998. the house can set its own rules. but the democrats should change it back. >> the democrats should change it so we have this process handled fairly. set the rules the way they were in 1998 and 1974. >> each one was a one off. they were distinguishable from one another. there is no precedent, no guidance in the constitution and

what you don't like is the party in power playing their advantage. i understand that. the democrats knelt same way in 1998 and that's what makes the american people frustrated but you don't have a legal argument. >> you're right. they only given them right to conduct an impeachment investigation. but we have a precedent. nancy pelosi can't explain why she won't use the 1998 precedent. she wants to keep the ability of the republicans from calling witnesses now. >> why would you be in a hurry to open it so republicans could have their own parallel investigation into everybody's investigating the president right now? you want hunter biden on? should they have ivanka on? she's can cutting deals with china for intellectual property while still in official capacity? if you want to have him on, shouldn't you have ivanka on

too? >> that has nothing to do with this. one of the reasons we're not using the 1998 precedent. >> the 1998 precedent -- the 1998 precedent was to have an independent counsel. so you don't have it apples to apples. what you don't like is you're being closed out and by the way i don't disagree with you. i think they should be as open and fair as is allowable with the offsetting interests of expediancy. i don't mean to be too wordy but you guys are in such a mode to go down different rabbit holes to stop this. if we change the names, it would change the game for you. if i said obama called up this president and said go get dirt on this person running against me and that's what i want, you would have a totally different analysis than you do right now.

>> nox i don't. when we're talking about the impeachment of a president to make sure we have a completely fair process where the president's concerns get waved fairly and the minority -- >> i hear you. but as a former intel official you had no comment about the energy secretary being told to go to rudy. you have no comment about this mad scramble that echoes what we saw in the text. not anonymous sources. we saw it in text everybody covering up. >> i think you're changing the subject from the process. nancy pelosi can't answer. >> she doesn't have to. >> she doesn't have to. you're right but she should so the american people should be sure this is a fair process. that the president is not being railroaded and he is. >> i don't know that will guarantee fairness when it's just going to be competing interests.

but i take your argument and your concerns about fairness. that is something everyone should share and good to have you back on the show and hope your health stays in shape. >> thank you. >> i wubd wonder -- you know we've been here before. you could take someone saying what fred just said and arguing back right now. we've had this argument before and we had somebody tell us the right way through it and we have forgotten what she told us to do. a champion who never gets enough credit. who did the right thing in a much harder time than now and i have the argument. ♪ do you recall, not long ago ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on ♪ blow a kiss into the sun

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don't change or stop them without talking to your doctor. so help heal your skin from within, and talk to your eczema specialist about dupixent. you have to remember we've been here before. the democrats made the same arguments during clinton as the republicans about how unfair impeachment is. the republicans want more subpoena power in the oversight

of trump but during obama they changed rules to take subpoena power from the minority and their rational, oh the irony. the obama administration had unprecedented delay and refused to comply. be clear impeachment has always been political and about correcting and punishing abuses of power. of power, not crimes. that's for the courts. but that is not our biggest problem right now. it's the tactics of division. that's what we're all recoiling at the most -- the division, the tactics, the smears, the lies by this president especially and those around him because from him, the most should be expected. but we've seen that before too. and just as now, there were calls for self-respecting, real conservatives, real republicans to get up and say, you know what? i don't want to win this way. i don't want to see the republican party win like this. while it might be a fleeting victory for the republican

party, it would be a more lasting defeat for the american people. it is high time that we stop thinking politically as republicans and democrats about elections and started thinking patriotically as americans about national security based on individual freedom. i don't want to see the republican party ride to political victory on the four horsemen of calumny -- fear, ignorance, bigotry, smear. doesn't that sound perfect? it should. those words were perfect when spoken by one brave woman. she never gets enough credit for chopping down senator joe mccarthy. we always think about the "have you no decency, sir" quote, right? that was joseph welch, chief counsel for the u.s. army. he wasn't an elected. that was not the seminal moment that turned it all around. it was the declaration of conscience by senator margaret chase smith, the first woman to hold seats in the house and then senate. she was from maine.

she even got six republicans to sign onto the declaration with her. 1,823 words, less than that transcript of that perfect ukraine call. but, wow, did she resonate. listen. >> i believe with all my heart that we must not become a nation of mental mutes, blindly following demagogues. >> mental mutes blindly following demagogues. she reminds those in office, people are sick of the exaggerations and hallucinations in the name of crushing opponents and just finding advantage. she reminded them, your duty was to the people, not to party alone. and, you know, they were faced with a real enemy back then, communism. the irony is you could argue russia has never had a greater effect on our society than they did in infecting the mind of mccarthy and his lot except for 2016, when they seemed to find a way to poison all of us to the

point that we're in right now, fighting each other over so little. remember the words of margaret chase smith. this is a moment that will always be remembered. it must reflect our best efforts. an impeachment cannot be about irresponsible sensationalism or smears of those on any side. the people remain divided on the prospects for this impeachment not so much because of questions about what this president did, but questions about whether the rest of those in power are really in a position to judge him. are they really better than what they seem to oppose, or are politicians just switching jerseys in the same game we've seen before? power and advantage. please give the people a reason to believe again, mr. and mrs. officeholder. if you are not man or woman enough to say it out loud like margaret chase smith, then

listen to her words and let it guide your actions. now, if you've been on social media in the last 48 hours, you've seen a lot of chatter about president george w. bush and ellen degeneres catching some football together. but i got a bolo for you. be on the lookout for someone who looked at everything going on and inspired civility, next. biopharmaceutical researchers.

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all right. i got a bolo for you. be on the lookout. president bush and ellen degeneres sat together at the cowboys game. what? they don't agree on key political issues. they should hate each other. wrong, says ellen. >> here's the thing. i'm friends with george bush. in fact, i'm friends with a lot

of people who don't share the same beliefs that i have. we're all different, and i think that we've forgotten that that's okay that we're all different. >> hmm, refreshing. and you know what i liked even more? no disrespect to ellen, but this was closer to home for me. somebody who took that and wanted to remind people listening to his show and shows like his that they got to be nice to people. you got to disagree with decency. who was it? my mentor and friend on fox news, neil cavuto. he said something that everybody needs to hear. take a listen. >> though i don't know them all personally, i can personally vouch for how good rachel maddow is to her staff because they tell me, or how funny don lemon can be making fun of himself, or how even funnier chris cuomo can be making fun of don. that's why i bristle when colleagues anywhere are called fake. >> he's dead right. my foot is funnier than don is. but you see what neil was trying to do, and this is why he's always been great at his craft

no matter where he works, okay? you got to be good to people. you've got to be kind. even when you disagree, you've got to do it with decency. we need that more from the people in high places like neil cavuto. he's a legend over there and rightly so. rush, one of my favorite rock bands, they had a song called "closer to the heart" and one of the lyrics is the men who hold high places -- men or women -- must be the ones who start. mold a new reality closer to the heart. we are at our best when we look for what brings us together even in impeachment, even at a time like this, be your best, and that means being good to others. thanks for watching. "cnn tonight" with d. lemon starts right now. >> i'm going to let that little slight slide. >> the truth hurts, brother. >> i'm surprised you didn't say your face is funnier than me. >> oh. >> that is the truth. >> i see what you took away from my message.