president's lies. chris wallace does it sunday. shep smith is a unique voice on fox. it's a loss for the country that he is suddenly leaving. i suspect there's more to come about why he left. >> thank you very much. i appreciate it. thanks to you for joining us. anderson starts now. good evening. we start a two-hour broadcast with breaking news. cabinet official who told the washington host he didn't have control over the, quote, tone, message, the public face and approach, unquote of his department has announced his departure. the department of homeland security chief is out. it occurs the same day a judge said the administration could not use military funding to build the border wall. here with more tonight is cnn kaitlan collins. what do we know about his departure? >> reporter: this is sudden. the president tweeting e iing t. ever since he first got named to

this job under, of course, an acting position, people never envisioned him taking the job in a permanent role. he was at odds with the president and some of his top advisers, including miller, and their roles and where they wanted to go on immigration. there were times where the president was pleased with what he was doing. there were other times where the president with a lash out and blame him for the border policies, high border crossings. something else that's interesting that happened in recent weeks, he gave this interview to "the washington post" where he talked about how essentially he lamented the fact he didn't feel he had control over the tone, the policy at the department at a time when he said they felt like they were in polarized times. we're told that interview, he didn't understand that he was on the record based on what someone close to him later told cnn. essentially, he thought that interview was going to land harder in the west wing than it did. it came at this time where this impeachment inquiry against the

president was ramping up. there was distraction. now the president announcing he is leaving to spend more time with his friends and family. he is going to announce a replacement, he says, next week. >> not surprising to a lot of people who knew him and knew the situation. was this -- is there reason to believe it was a sudden decision? was it a decision, do we know, on the president's part? >> reporter: based on what our sources are telling us, it was mcaleenan's decision. he was dupset. they noticed a change in his attitude since the interview. we should note, he has had a troubled time in this job. there was one time based on cnn reporting he came close to resigning over the summer because he didn't feel like he ever had control over the department, over his subordinates.

you notice there was that purth dhs officials. what we were told, he didn't feel like he had control over that. he thought people like steven muller had too much say in who was doing what at the department of homeland security. the big picture here though for people at home is that the department of homeland security has essentially been in a point of turmoil for some time now. they have had a complete rotation in not only the dhs leadership but also cpp, other positions in dhs under that umbrella of dhs. depending on who the president picks, that will be a big question. the people he liked in the past, republicans have said are people who don't have a chance of getting confirmed. >> kaitlan collins, thanks. nick muroff interviewed him for the story ten days ago joins us now. thanks for being with us. first of all, were you surprised to hear mcaleenan's leaving? do you know more details about

for sure was it his decision? >> yes, i think this was his decision. i mean, i got signs of that when i spoke to him. i got the impression this has been coming for a while, particularly as he has felt more frustrated and somewhat isolated in his role there as acting secretary. he has been acting secretary now for six months. he has done everything that the administration and the president has asked of him. delivered on the one thing that mattered most to trump, driving down the border numbers and getting the crisis under control. at the same time, the messages -- the messaging coming out of the administration, the rhetoric on enforcement was at odds with his more kind of moderate approach to this stuff and the language that he is more comfortable with. >> it's remarkable when you step back and look at all the people who -- whose job was to execute the policy that president trump has been pushing, along with stephen miller and others.

the people who are actually on the ground having to kind of execute it, they end up leaving. i don't know. i guess that says something about the policy itself at a certain point. >> i mean, this is an incredibly difficult job. i can tell you that he has been going nonstop ever since he has got this. i can't remember ever seeing somebody working quite that hard and facing so many different difficult challenges. he was the commissioner of customs and border protection before this. he was dealing with things like the deaths of those children in custody, all the criticism that he has faced really from -- especially from democrats but also from the hard liliners aro the president who doubted his credentials and continued to whisper to the president that he was an obama guy and wasn't really tough enough. over the past six months, we

have seen him implement some pretty -- some contentious policies that have, in fact, really tightened things up at the border. >> i appreciate your time. thank you very much. more on the white house. for the second day in a row president trump claims he doesn't know someone who is a potential threat to him. on thursday, it was rudy giuliani's clients charged with campaign finance violations. today, it's marie yovanovitch, a woman with 33 years of service to the united states under six presidents who has testified. listen to what the president said about the ambassador whose career he destroyed. as you listen to this, see if you can catch the incredibly obvious lie in the president's statement. >> she may be a wonderful woman. i don't know her. but she may be very much a wonderful woman. if you remember the phone call i had with the president, the new

president, he didn't speak favorably. i just don't know her. she may be a wonderful woman. >> don't know her. maybe wonderful woman. i destroyed her career. what's incredible about that statement is that this president cannot even attempt a simple cleanup excuse without lying. he spoke five sentences there. there was, besides the i don't know her, there was at least one big lie in there that's very obvious. president trump claimed the new ukrainian president didn't speak favorably about the ambassador in that phone call. the problem is, it's in the transcript and it wasn't ukraine's president who didn't speak favorably of the ambassador. it was president trump. here he is from the transcript of the july 25th call. quote, the former ambassador from the united states, the woman was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the ukraine were bad news. i just want to let you know that. that's the president talking to the ukrainian president. he seemed to remember her more than two months ago. today she certainly remembered him in her opening statement

during today's closed door hearing. yovanovitch said she was recalled from ukraine after, quote, a concerted campaign against me. she said the deputy secretary of state told her she had done nothing wrong but the president had, quote, lost confidence in me and the department had been under pressure from the president, unquote to remove her. she said this of rudy giuliani and the two men arrested yesterday. quote, i do not know mr. giuliani's motives for attacking me. but individuals who have been named in the press as contacts of mr. giuliani may well have believed their personal financial ambitions were stymied by our anti-corruption policy in ukraine. she actually was executing an anti-corruption policy, which is what the president claims he was really interested in when he asked the ukrainian president to go after the bidens. manu raju joins us from capitol hill. talk to me about the ambassador's deposition today. what do we know about what she said?

>> she just actually left, anderson, after being here nearly ten hours, including most of that time behind closed doors getting grilled by lawmakers and delivering that eye-popping opening statement. the statement is what drove a lot of the conversation internally. probably drove most of the news of what came out of there. democrats are emerging, calling this a really stunning series of comments that this former ambassador made calling it a gripping and personal account of a presidential abuse of power. one democrat put it. several have said the president sought to throw her to the wolves of sorts and an effort to clear her out of the way so rudy -- rudy giuliani was trying to push the investigation into the bidens. in the views of democrats and how she characterized it, helped giuliani's associates' bottom line. that was the takeaway from the democrats from this closed door testimony. republicans also just came out and they sharply criticized the

process. they said the process was not fair. they said it should have been transparent. this should not have been behind closed doors. criticizing adam schiff. when i asked about the substance of the allegations laid out in this testimony, most of the republicans would say, we can't talk about this because it is classified. according to the rules, these are secret rules. we're not allowed to weigh in some of the allegations. the allegations that she was disloyal to this president is one reason why that push was there to get her out of the job. i asked the republicans whether she quayled any concerns that she said she was not disloyal to the president. was that okay to satisfy the republicans? they would not weigh in on that either. you are hearing the narratives come out of that. republicans argue on the process. democrats saying this is significant and could further their impeachment push. >> thanks very much. joining us is tom malinowski

who sits on the committee. the ambassador testified there had been what she called a concerted campaign against her and that the president wanted her removed because of, quote, unfounded and false claims about her. i know there's only so much you can say. i'm wondering in your opinion, was she forthcoming? is there anything you can say about that? >> she was very forthcoming. the first thing i would say is that it's really significant that she was there. what p what her presence says is it is not only necessary to obey legally binding subpoenas, but it's possible if you are a career foreign service officer or civil servant in this government, it's possible despite the efforts of this white house to stop career employees from speaking to the congress. that's an important message. she's setting an example for everybody else. on the substance, i can't talk about what she said. look, we know -- we already know

a great deal. so just from what we publically know, what's clear to me is that this was an ambassador of great integrity who was advancing our official policy in ukraine, fighting corruption. there were a bunch of crooked ukrainians who wanted to get her out of the way because she was threatening them. at the same time, we had rudy giuliani advancing a shadow foreign policy on behalf of the president. he also wanted to get her out of the way because she was standing in the way of that. so all these people found each other. the crooked ukrainians, giuliani and his associates, they found common cause in getting rid of a patriotic american diplomat. >> what's so interesting is that official u.s. policy in ukraine was an anti-corruption effort. it seems like from everybody i have talked to about this ambassador, is that she actually was executing an anti-corruption policy which is what earned her the ire of some of these

ukrainian officials. the idea that the president was really concerned about anti-corruption, it just doesn't hold water. >> it doesn't. she was advancing an anti-corruption policy. there were at least a dozen parts of that, all kinds he reforms that she and the state department were urging the ukrainians to take to their anti-corruption court to strengthen all their institutions that were fighting corruption, to fire another crooked prosecutor who is still in place in ukraine. meanwhile, yeah, the president says now that we held up this aid because we were concerned about corruption. problem with that is that they never actually then told the ukrainians, here are the three or five or ten steps that you need to take to clean up your corruption act to get the aid. all they said was, investigate joe biden and confirm some wacky conspiracy theory about what happened in 2016. it totally doesn't hold water.

>> is it clear to you -- again, maybe -- i don't know if she spoke to this or if you know or don't know. is it clear about rudy giuliani's motives in this? obviously, he is working on the behest of the president for -- as the president's attorney. he also in many places seems to have financial dealings with -- we know these two people who are now under arrest. is it known if he had financial dealings in ukraine or financial connections, financial interests? >> he certainly seems to have had financial interests in ukraine. i think there's probably much more that we can learn about that. i think he probably had multiple motivations. the most important one from our point of view is that he was purporting to represent the president of the united states in a shadow foreign policy that completely contradicted the official foreign policy of the united states. which was fighting corruption and supporting ukraine in defending their territory against russia.

>> the fact that the white house and state department according to three democratic committee chair s directed yovanovitch no to testify today, but she complied anyway with a subpoena, is that the way the house committee work around the administration? is that how they are trying to block witnesses? i know you said this sends a message. do you think her testimony encourages other career officers, career employees that they, too, can come forward? >> anderson, i believe it does. i think she's setting an example of courage and integrity under great pressure. you know, that example is if there is a legally binding subpoena, then you have a duty to show up. this is -- we are a rule of law country. i think one of the great things about ambassador yovanovitch, she spent 30 years representing us around the world, fighting for the rule of law.

she came back home and she is abiding by the rule of law right here in the united states. i think there are a lot of folks at the state department, throughout the u.s. government who will see this as an example, a good example to follow. it can be done. >> just finally, i'm not sure you may have been in the meeting, you may not have heard, the president's latest comments. the president said he doesn't know her, that maybe she's a great woman, but that the ukrainian president in his phone conversation spoke -- said negative things about her. which is a complete lie, we know, from the transcript. it was president trump saying bad things about her. i guess that shouldn't come as a surprise that he is lying in just five sentences. it strikes me as amazing that he lies about stuff that we can read in a transcript that's not even a complete transcript. >> you know, every day he makes it harder for his defenders to

defend him. i think this is getting harder for some of my republican colleagues, who see this chaos, who see an indefensible policy and whatever they are telling you publically, i know that a lot of them are privately thinking, do i want to defend this for another six years? >> congressman, thank you very much. >> thank you. more to come, including white house reaction to a bad day in court. we will count up all the big cases that the administration, the white house loss today. there's a number of them. is rudy giuliani still trump's attorney? more ahead. (amber jagger) if we don't give students from an underserved background the technology that they need in school, they're not going to be competitive in the workforce that's waiting for them. since verizon innovative learning, students have hardware, connectivity, and quality curriculum.

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more breaking news on rudy giuliani and questions about his status of the personal attorney and fixer for president trump. two of giuliani's associates with whom he worked on issues involving ukraine have been

arrested on campaign finance violations. sources tell cnn giuliani's own financial dealings with the men are under scrutiny as well. the question is giuliani still the president's attorney or is the president distancing himself just as he has done with michael cohen and so many others? here is what the president said on that today. >> i don't know. i haven't spoken to rudy. i spoke to him yesterday briefly. he is a very good attorney and he has been my attorney, yeah, sure. >> pamela brown joins us now. pamela, what do you make of that answer? it seems like the distancing is beginning. >> reporter: yeah. i think you are seeing both of what you mentioned, he is still his personal attorney but the president is trying to distance himself. a source tells me tonight that while he is still his attorney, he will be sidelined on legal matters involving ukraine. i was actually the one that talked to the president, asked him whether giuliani was still his personal attorney. his first words out of the gate

were, i don't know. i haven't spoken to rudy. as we heard, he said, i spoke to him briefly yesterday. he is a very good attorney. he has been my attorney. we have seen this in the past with the president's former personal attorney michael cohen. we did reach out to giuliani to get comment on this. he says he is still the president's lawyer and that there are no ukraine issues, which he says he finished in march. of course, anderson, ukraine is at the heart of the democrats' impeachment probe after it was revealed the president asked ukraine's president to investigate his political rival. it's giuliani involved with this effort to dig up dirt on biden and two of his associates as we know helped with that effort. they were just indicted on campaign finance charges just yesterday. my colleague kaitlan collins is reporting tonight that in the wake of that, trump has been privately expressing concerns about giuliani's involvement with those two men and doubts as well. if you heard what he said today

that you just played, that wasn't a ringing endorsement of his personal attorney. >> for a moment i thought he was going to say, i don't know how to answer that. it was just i don't know. we will see. pamela brown, thanks very much. joining us to discuss this, former federal prosecute he jeffrey toobin, "new york times" white house correspondent maggie haver and david gergen. giuliani says he is the president's lawyer and there's no ukraine issues but he will not deal with anything ukraine related. how do you interpret this? >> just to talk about the legal framework of all this, which is that lawyers are not allowed to also be witnesses in the same case. if you are a witness in a case or in an investigation, you can't represent anyone in that case. it's common sense. here it's quite clear that at many different levels rudy

giuliani is a witness in the impeachment matter and very likely a witness in this case that was brought against two of his associates yesterday. just as a simple matter of legal ethics, putting aside the question of whether he did anything improper, i just don't see there's any way he can stay in the case. the argument that was just made that, well, he is still the lawyer but he has nothing to do with ukraine -- ukraine is the whole case at this point. >> yeah. >> i don't know what it means to be his lawyer if he can't deal with ukraine. >> maggie, there's longstanding relationship between president trump and rudy giuliani going back to new york days. are you surprised that the president -- i don't know i shouldn't say the president has begun to distance himself because that's what he does. do you see this as distancing or just confusion on the president's part of he's not sure what the status is? >> i think it's a little of both. i think he is distancing

himself. he seems to be doing it somewhat reluctantly. i've seen hip am do it and you e seen him do it with more ease with other people. he has a 30-year relationship with rudy. knows giuliani's children. they have been friends a long time. i think he is uncomfortable throwing him under the bus the same way he has done with other people. i think he is not sure where this goes. i think he doesn't want to toss him aside if there's no reason to. however, what we learned today is that giuliani is being looked at by the u.s. attorney's office for a possible violation, federal registered lobbying agent. whether that case ends up hurting giuliani remains to be seen. it's hard to see how he would be the president's lawyer if he is under active investigation. i think the other point i would make quickly, rudy giuliani is the television face for this president for a long time. there's a couple of people who go on tv from the white house.

giuliani has been all over the place for the president. if he is not out there fighting for the president on tv, that's something the president values as much as anything. >> david, when you consider two giuliani's clients were arrested, charged for violating campaign finance laws, how much would president trump have known about any of this? i guess there's no way at this point to know. it seems to be a tangled web. >> it sure does. i think with regard to go giuliani's future, the operative words were he has been my attorney. in the past tense. i think that's -- i think he is heading toward the exit. i think the white house feels he has been out a lot on television but he is not effective. if anything, he rouse people on the other side. he is the -- when you get into this ukrainian thing, he is the central player in the episode with ukraine.

he is the president's guy to get this done. i don't see how he can go forward without appearing before the committees on the hill. they will want him. the white house is not going to want to have this guy out being their spokesperson at the time he is being grilled and they find more things on him. who would have expected these two sleazy guys to be hanging around and then who would have expected to see don junior in some bar with them somewhere? that alone tells you that the pre president's family knew these guys. >> it surprises you giuliani is hanging around with two potentially sleazy guys? >> it doesn't surprise me that he hangs around with them. what surprises me is he does it publically. >> and they were going to be in svienna together at the same time. stay with me. a big week coming up. more ukraine testimony expected. what will it mean for the president and rudy geiuliani?

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in case you are just tuning in, a source close to president trump's legal team tell s cnn giuliani is still the president's attorney. the president seemed to distance himself from giuliani this afternoon. it was on the same day the president's former ambassador to ukraine said he was hollowing out the state department, turning it into a vehicle for his own political ends. maggie, in terms -- we only have seen some of the opening

statement of the ambassador. certainly for a career foreign service officer to come forward, though under a subpoena and testify, that certainly is a break in the wall that the white house hoped to set up to stop people from taking part in this. >> i'm sorry, was that to me? >> yeah. that was to you. >> i'm sorry. the ambassador who testified today was a break in the wall was your question? >> yeah. the fact that she came forward even though pompeo had said that they wouldn't be cooperating. >> yeah. it's noticeable, i think, that you are seeing the beginning of a number of people who are willing not just to speak out publically or at least to speak out privately through news accounts and have their views be known but as you note, go meet with members on the hill. we have seen some people in the administration in previous investigations like hope hicks go and give some very limited

testimony with lawyers from the administration with her. this feels different. the statements you saw today on the hill and what we anticipate we might hear from ambassador sondland next week gets us into dangerous territory potentially for white house. >> she was testifying for ten hours behind closed doors. >> it was amazing. first of all, i want to step back a bit. it's worth remembering that the president of the united states can change ambassadors and put his own person in place if he is not happy with the one who is there. there's a code of conduct that goes with that. secretaries of state try to honor. that is, you want to cultivate your public servants at the state department, foreign service officers, he want to grow them, let them have embassies. that's how you get talented people to come in. to turn on them for his own personal gain to put a knife in her back and end her career for his own personal political gain is a deep violation of that code

of honor, that code of conduct. i think that is -- what i think we're increasingly seeing, to build on what maggie was saying, is across the government we have been asking, when are the republicans going to start to come over and see things in a different light, what's really interesting is the civil service and people who are saying whether this is an environment, or homeland security or state department, they are all coming out and beginning to speak out again this administration. to vent their frustration and disagreement with the fundamental policies. i think over time that's going to have a major impact on this impeachment proceeding. >> if i can just add one point. we had this discussion about when the president fired james comey. the president had the right to fire comey. he was a presidential employee. the question is, could he do it for a corrupt purpose to influence the investigation? it's a very similar situation here. as david said, the president does have the right to recall an

ambassador. but why? who w what was the reason? the only reason that appears to be in play is that she wouldn't participate in gathering dirt on joe biden, which is illegitimate and corrupt. >> also, jeff, for the president's whole excuse on all of this is that he was -- in that phone conversation that he was interested in fighting corruption in ukraine and making sure that the president of ukraine was doing that as well. joe biden somehow and hunter biden were the exemplars. it was very clear, she had an entire program p place of anti-corruption. that seemed to be a major focus of legitimate u.s. foreign policy and the president removed the person who was doing that.

>> the only corruption the president has shown interest in is joe biden's family. of course, it remains to be -- >> there is no evidence. >> the point -- the president says, i wanted corruption investigated. he didn't want corruption investigated. he wanted biden investigated. that was the source it appears of a conflict with the ambassador. that's why she got fired. >> jeff, david, maggie, thank you very much. you may need your whole hand to count how many court cases the president and his administration lost today. are democrats within reach of his taxes? the latest rulings on that and what they mean for president trump next. turn on my tv and boom,

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the background of tonight's breaking news, the resignation of the acting homeland security secretary and president trump distancing himself from giuliani. next year's elections loom large. one of the states president trump needs to win is wisconsin where he barely defeated clinton in 2016 by a little more than 22,000 votes. we asked randi kaye to gather nine independent voters and ask them at this point in the campaign about the president and the impeach monment investigati. one voted for president trump in 2016, four for clinton, two didn't vote and two wrote in

other candidates. >> reporter: do you think an impeachment inquiry is appropriate? >> yes. >> definitely appropriate. >> reporter: all of you agree it's appropriate? >> yes. >> i'm witnessing this president go out there and do things that are clearly following what's in the constitution about impeachment, high creimes and misdemeanors. >> reporter: you lean right. you are okay with the impeachment inquiry? >> absolutely. i also feel like we need to follow the rule of law. if something smells bad, we need to investigate it. >> reporter: why are some of you convinced this call sounded like a quid pro quo. >> they put the $319 million on hold days before. what kind of a signal is that? it wasn't on hold for two months. this was days before. >> we are looking to buy more javelins. do me a favor. it's right there.

it's in the primary source released by the white house. you read it word for word. to me, i'm not a lawyer, i'm not a mobster, to me it looks like a quid pro quo. >> reporter: why is our president asking a foreign president for a political favor like this? it seems so highly inappropriate. >> i'm not convinced the with holding of aid a few days before we have enough evidence to say that that was related. i think that the transcript of the call is suspicious but i'm not yet ready to make a decision. >> reporter: how many of you see this phone call and this ask by the president of the united states to look into his political rival as an abuse of power? raise your hand. what about the white house putting that phone call on a classified server? >> the white house staff even his own staff saw this as you might have done something impeachable. >> reporter: another concern for these voters, text messages in which an ambassador tries to bury any talk of quid pro quo or

conditions. >> as someone who worked in government in years past, when you get that message that says call me, it's because somebody does not want a written record of something. >> reporter: about the state department blocking some key witnesses from testifying? >> that to me is huge warning signs. i think that's problematic. >> there's nothing to worry about, then why hide anything? be transparent. >> reporter: fair to say that this inquiry has affected all of your thinking when it comes to who you might vote for? >> absolutely. >> yes. >> i think for me, it's one more level of distrust. if i can't trust someone, i have a hard time voting for them. >> reporter: if the president is impeached but not removed from office, how many of you would still vote for him? none of you. rich, you lean right as well. even though you are an independent. >> correct. >> reporter: are you considering voting for trump still? >> no. because it looks kind of bad. >> reporter: knowing what you know now about ukraine and the impeachment inquiry, do you think he should be removed from

office, raise your hand? three. >> interesting that they want the inquiry to move forward. three just say at this point they believe the president should be removed from office. i think we're having -- >> reporter: right. they want to wait for all of the facts in this case. they want to see how it plays out. obviously, they are turned off by -- you ccan you hear me okay? >> we have a bad delay. >> reporter: they are turned off by what's happening with donald trump. they certainly -- okay. they are turned off. they are waiting for the facts. they are turned off by the president. they want to see how this is going to play out. they want the full investigation. they think there's something fishy here. they want to see how it goes. they don't buy the president's explanation or the white house's explanation that he was trying to just root out corruption in ukraine. if you look ahead to the

election for 2020 as far as our voters go, one is considering voting for joe biden. the others like buttigieg and warren and yang. if donald trump is the republican nominee, not a single person in our group say they will vote for him. >> thanks very much. president trump's bad day in court. losses mounting on a number of fronts as democrats get closer to his tax returns.

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the president likes to say he is winning, would have a hard time convincing americans of that today. he along with his administration lost five federal court cases today alone. for those keeping count, three were in new york, washington state and california where federal judges issued rulingings

blo that would have made it easier for the administration joining us now is finance editor tell "new york times." he's the author of dark towers, deutsche bank, donald trump and an epic trail of destruction, a fascinating book. and still with us is jeffrey toobin. jeff, on the legal front, the administration has two options when it comes to appealing the tax return ruling, appealed to the full d.c. circuit court, what do you think they would do? >> i think they're going to try everything they can. and so i assume that means going

to the d.c. circuit first and then the supreme court but they're really running out of options here. a three-judge panel of the d.c. circuit, it was two judges in favor of congress and one judge who said that the president could withhold the tax returns. but this is unlikely to be overturned at this point. not out of the question. but this is two really bad rulings in a row. >> does chief justice roberts want a case like this? >> i don't think the chief justice wants to be anywhere near this. the issue of congressional power versus congressional oversight, there are so many of these cases percolating through the courts now, it's hard for me to believe the supreme court will be able to duck all of them. but the one about the president's tax returns is so personal that perhaps that's not the one they want to pick. but i don't know. certainly i think in the next

year they are going to have to take up at least some of these cases. >> david, if and when congress does get ahold of the taxes, what exactly would they be able to glean from them? >> it's hard to know where to even begin with that question. there's so much information that potentially could be revealed in these tax returns that -- these are secrets that donald trump has spent the past four years fighting tooth and nail to keep secret. we would know a lot more about where he has been getting his money over the years, from whom he's been getting his money, which foreign entities or individuals he's partnered with over the years, to whom he owes money and there's all sorts of information that could come out with different entanglements he has with different companies all oaf the world. >> there's no way -- i mean, if ne have to do that, according to

the supreme court, the president can't order them to not do that, correct? >> no, he can't. although his lawyers have intervened in the case. his lawyers are now part of the case involving his accountants. again, the president appears to be losing in that case as well. there are lots of different cases percolating through the courts about his tax returns but none of them have reached the point of final resolution where either the president himself, the irs or the accountants actually have to physically transfer the tax returns over to the people looking for them. >> as we said, congress isn't limiting their scope to the president's tax records. they're looking at deutsche bank records, which lent a significant amount of money to the president plp. >> i think those deutsche bank records, i'm a little biased because i'm obsessed with this bank but i think the deutsche

bank records have the potential to be even more interesting. the bank said it does not currently possess its tax returns but it has an enormous quantity of information about his personal finances, those of his kids and the structure of his companies and the bank did its due diligence when deciding to make hundreds of millions of dollars of donald trump and that information could end up in the hand of congress. >> the stuff about deutsche bank -- i understand why you're obsessed with it. it sort of defies why a bank loans money to people and even if that person doesn't pay them back, why that bank would still loan institution to that person. and what about the cracks that are starting to appear in the relationship with rudy giuliani? we'll be right back. (bold music) now, it's like he has his own health entourage. he gets medicare's largest healthcare network,

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