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i'm anderson cooper in for chris cuomo. the former ambassador of ukraine who testified about the state department being attacked and hollowed out by politics masked diplomacy. the president said he did not know this three-time ambassador who spent 33 years in the foreign service. >> well, she may be a wonderful woman, i don't know her. she may be very much a wonderful woman. if you remember the phone call i had with the president, the new president, he didn't speak favorably. but i just don't know her. she may be a wonderful woman. >> so just, you know, facts matter, that's actually not true what he just said. it wasn't the president of ukraine who was saying negative things about the ambassador, it was actually president trump speaking to the president of ukraine speaking unfavorably of her on that now infamous july phone call, which would indicate he does know her or of her. today in her testimony, marie

yovanovitch said the president was very familiar with her and her work in ukraine and said the deputy of state said the president, quote, lost confidence in me and that there had been a concerted campaign against me and the department had been under pressure to remove me from december of '18. after almost ten hours of testimony, what are you learning about the ambassador's deposition, particularly what she told the commission about rudy giuliani? this is behind closed doors so information is hard to get. >> reporter: that's right, anderson. from what we do know of her deposition, she really painted today for the lawmakers a fuller picture of what she believes the role of rudy giuliani was, the extent of his role, how he according to her essentially coordinated this

well-coordinated strategy to smear campaign, if you will, to lead to her removal from the post. she said that at the time while she was in ukraine, she had heard from ukrainian officials that giuliani was going around trashing her, saying bad things about her, making bad things up about her but it was only until now in the context of all that has been revealed over the last few weeks does she understand some of the context and essentially the extent of all of this. some powerful words mostly in the opens statement obtained from "the new york times" about why she felt this was significant. she said because of the smear campaign was made up of unfounded and false chase by people she says with clearly questionable motives. of course a reference there to rudy giuliani. >> what are you hearing from democratic and republican members of the congress who

heard her testimony today? did they hear the same thing? >> reporter: not at all. and that is typical for these sorts of things. we just heard from republicans and democrats, top democrats and republicans on the committee leaving this room after that marathon session tonight and their reaction predictably, not surprisingly fell into partisan camps. the top democrat on the intel committee, adam schiff, the chairman of that committee praised yovanovitch, saying she's a model democrat and deserved better than the shabby treatment she received from president. and schiff did not take questions from reporters tonight of which there are many. republicans coming out of that room tonight, anderson, really attacked the process. we heard from many republicans saying this should have been an open testimony, saying that they themselves did not think that they learned anything that was classified so why should this be

held behind closed doors? so certainly both sidesng and seeing what they wanted to see and likely that will -- certainly that sort of pattern will head into next week when we'll hear many more depositions and outcomes of. depositions on capitol hill. >> in terms of the people inquiry, how soon do democrats expect to get through upcoming witnesses? >> they have quite the jam packed schedule of deposition witnesses. even tonight the chairman. committee, adam schiff, saying they are moving with a new sense of urgency, that they are making progress and he promised potentially more depositions coming up that we don't know about, more subpoenas coming up that we at this point don't know about, so they're clearly pushing ahead. it comes as you rightfully point out that the republicans and president trump have been calling for this full vote on the house floor to authorize the impeachment inquiry. that is something that the

speaker of the house, nancy pelosi, so far has been hesitant to do. she said she doesn't think it's necessary. she has not ruled it out but she doesn't think she has to because of the constitution. it will be most notable early next week when everyone is back on capitol hill after this two-week recess when house democrats will convene in their weekly conference caucus meeting. we'll see if this small group of democrats who are saying we should go ahead and authorize this in the full house floor, we will see if that has any sway with the leaders of the democrats. anderson? >> thank you very much. appreciate it. congressm congressman, thanks so much for being with us. appreciate it. >> good to be with you. >> i want to get to your trip in ukraine in just a moment because the timing of it could not be more important.

i do want to ask you about the ambassador's testimony. i'm wondering what you make of what we have learned so farther, concerted campaign against her, according to her testimony. >> well, first of all, she's an extraordinary woman, obviously skilled as a diplomat but obviously very, very, very courageous, willing to speak to power and not be put down by the president but rather to carry out her constitutional and her oath of office, that is to obey the constitution and to come forward with whatever information she has. with regard to her testimony, the deposition process is one of gathering data and information. there will undoubtedly be hearings, perhaps she'll be coming back. this is a process that's extremely important, understanding the details, the timelines, the various events that went on. no doubt about it giuliani was out there playing games, not only perhaps for his own pocket and for the pocket of the two fellas that were just indicted

but also to lay out an investigation for -- against biden. all of that is probably in the deposition, it probably there and there will be further information i think sondland's coming in next week. in is all part of the unraveling of donald trump. >> for the president to be claiming that his conversation with the president of ukraine was all about fighting corruption in ukraine and rudy giuliani was at the pointy end of the spear of an anti-corruption drive in ukraine, is just ludicrous, particularly when you learn that the ambassador herself was pushing forward an aggressive anti-corruption program in ukraine and ran afoul of theoretically corrupt or shady officials there. >> well, that's exactly right. when we met with the officials, the minister of defense who had actually been in office just two weeks and the foreign minister,

their principal goal was to root out corruption, to get rid of the corruption, even so much so that we spent a lot of time talking about how the military can put in place an inspector general. beyond that, we also when we met just outside the ministry of defense ambassador taylor was there to greet us at the very moment that our smartphones were saying his tweet message was there. we climbed off the bus and congratulated him for speaking the truth. what is the trump administration up to? trying to play games with the $400 million absolutely essential military supplies and trainers to go with it. civil servants are standing up. they're there to serve the constitution and the american system of government. we're seeing two examples right there. let's put the two

whistle-blowers on the same line, standing up to power, calling it as it is and saying something's terribly wrong here. so let's hear it for the civil servants out there that trump has spent most of his career trying to dump. >> you just mentioned bill taylor. he's the senior diplomat to ukraine. he wrote that text message to ambassador sondland from the eu saying i think it crazy to withhold assistance for help with a political campaign and they there was the five-hour gap and ambassador sondland kind of read out a statement, essentially, sounded like it was coming from donald trump. >> that's what we call the classic cya memo that goes out. some memberlawyer said oh my go have a problem here. yes, we do. keep in mind, we have a problem in the white house.

the transcript that was not complete went into the deep vault never to be seen by anybody again. i have news for the president. we're going to see what's in that vault. we'll find out exactly what was said in his own word and we're going to find out, i want you to do a favor, though. yeah, there you have it. trump broke the law. >> do you think that there is a recording of the conversation? do you think there is a more full transcript? somewhere? >> well, what happened during the nixon period, except for that 18 minutes that disappeared? i'm sure there's a recording, if not in the white house, there's a recording somewhere. and for sure the ukrainians have a recording, although i'm sure they don't want to release it. you just got to feel for this president, a new guy comes in, 75% vote, has a super majority in his own parliament and then trump comes in and lays the heavy hit on him saying play with me or else. and he just has no place to go.

this president is strong, he wants to do right by his country, he's fighting a major battle with the russians. 14,000 ukrainians have been killed in that fight and trump is out just to feather his own nest to try to win an election. it is just outrageous what's happened here. >> yeah. yeah. human beings' lives are at stake. >> exactly. and more. >> congressman john garamendi, i really appreciate talking to you. thank you very much. >> coming up, i'll talk to two veterans from the watergate administration about how donald trump seems to be distancing himself from key figures in the investigation. and is his distancing himself from rudy giuliani?

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attorney rudy giuliani. rudy giuliani still works for the president but won't work with ukraine matters. this comes as two associates were charged with campaign finance violations and investigators are probing rudy giuliani's financial dealings with the two men. this after a man whose career was destroyed by president trump testified against giuliani and his associates. two veterans of the watergate investigations joins us now, richard ben-veniste, cnn political analyst and journalist carl bernstein. carl, let's talk about the ambassador's testimony. how problematic do you think it could be for the white house and the potential testimony next

week of ambassador sondland, who is a supporter of the president's? >> very consequential and i think we already know that. there's a whole series of witnesses who are really in a position to do the president great damage because they're telling the truth about what looks like a conspiracy involving the president of the united states to undermine our very basis of free elections in this country by engaging a foreign power to interfere with the opposition candidate facing the president of the united states. we've never had a situation where a foreign power has been called upon by the president of the united states, as it appears from his own words, trump's own words that we've seen he did this. now it's up to other witnesses to fill in more information and that's indeed what we saw the ambassador do today and we have many others coming. and also the whole question of john bolton, the president's

national security adviser, who heard that conversation with the president of ukraine. bolton is in a position and he apparently scurried and knew how damaging that conversation was. it all gets back to what the ambassador was also testifying about today. so there's a circle that is closing in, an evidentiary circle that's very damaging to the president of the united states and today that circle got tighter. >> richard, i'm wondering where you see where the investigation is so far. i mean, the president today not even saying or couldn't say whether rudy giuliani was still his lawyer or not. he said "i don't know." >> he's made a number of bizarre statements recently, this business about his acumen, his brilliance, his unmatched ability to tell what the turks

are going to do and whether they're going to cross a line. all of this stuff is reminiscent of when nixon was under such pressure, the "i am not a crook" speech. all of this is very reminiscent. i think the most disturbing thing, as carl has mentioned, is the inability to accept the normative precepts of our constitutional government and the balance of powers between congress and the executive branch, which the president refuses repeatedly to accept. and i think the focus group from wisconsin was very telling in the way they analyzed this. you know, people use their god-given common sense and every day experience when someone lies to them, when someone refuses to

give information and hides access to witnesses and testimony and documents, they ask the question as we did when nixon was president why is he going to such lengths to keep this information from the public? and with nixon's case we know why. the information was damning. >> carl, i'm wondering, i mean, how much of any impeachment inquiry is dictated by public sentiment? you pointed out in the past with watergate it's finally when republicans turned and, you know, went to the president and, you know, kind of explained the reality of the situation he was facing. is it public sentiment that turned first, that motivated republicans to?

>> republicans that were on the house judiciary committee committee which voted articles of impeachment against the president of the united states, they are moved by patriotism and they were moved by a real sense of responsibility such as we have not seen from republicans during the trump presidency. however, i know enough from talking to republicans, other reporters do, to know that something is shifting among republicans right now on capitol hill. they are losing confidence in this president, they are losing confidence in his ability to think straight, to act straight, to conduct the presidency in a manner that they need to see to have any measure of confidence in the president of the united states. and there really is some deterioration going on. in turkey, the situation with turkey and isis also plays into this. the confidence factor in the president of the united states,

seeing him unhinged as we have in these weeks, watching rudy giuliani and the president, who are joined at the hip, whatever the president of the united states says, these two guys are joined in the hip in what looks very much like an easy, slam dunk, almost, ability to say conspiracy and those two are tied to it. and there's more witnesses coming, many more witnesses in the coming days. and there's going to be an expansion of this inquiry as well. >> richard, you and 16 other former watergate special prosecutors calling for the president's impeachment, i'm wondering what led you to that conclusion? >> i think motivating us, we're all in our 70s now, we've all had careers in the law is that there is no right to remain silent at a time when our constitution is being trashed.

and it's being trashed because the fundamental precepts of our separation of power, of adhering to congressional oversight of the executive is fundamental and we can't lose that. if we lose that, we lose the essence of our democracy, and everything else will slip. i think as trained lawyers, and there are many, many throughout this country who understand our constitution, we don't have an organized religion that's official in this country. what we have is a constitution that everyone must abide by. >> richard ben-veniste and carl bernstein, i appreciate it. we have a lot more to learn about rudy giuliani's involvement with those two men under arrest. right back with a deeper dive into their ties next. and there's nothing you can do about it? now there's a solution!

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breaking news, a source says rudy giuliani is no longer dealing with ukraine issues for the president, this after two associates of rugiuliani's were arrested. >> reporter: they once smiled for photographs with president trump and dined with don jr. >> i don't know those men. it's possible i have a picture because i have a picture with everybody. >> lev parnas and fruman have

been indicted. >> they are charged with making false statements, falsifying records and two counts of conspiracy, including funneling foreign money into a u.s. election. in efforts to gain influence with politicians, the two men made a $325,000 donation to a pro-trump super pac. the indictment alleging that they sought to advance their personal financial interests and the political interest of at least one ukrainian government official with whom they were working. federal prosecutors say the two. american pressured a congressman to help oust ambassador mari mariaoff -- maria yovanovitch.

>> that was jessica snyder reporting. for more we're joined by scott jennings, former special assistant to former president bush. and author of the really interesting new look on the fbi "crossfi "crossfire". rudy giuliani suddenly going silent on ukraine, it seems unlikely. >> right. this seaems to be an area that he's very interested in and obviously has his tent caacles over the place. you have the president not directly answering whether or not he's actually working for the president anymore, sort of referring to it in the past tense. so this would suggest to me that

they're recognizing that there's a problem with his connections to ukraine and at a bare minimum he needs to step back away from that. >> scott, should the president still consider rudy giuliani his personal attorney given all that's going on? >> no, absolutely not. i mean, giuliani being in the middle of this from the beginning has been one of the absolute worst facts for the president. he obviously exercised galactically bad judgment and now he's in direct contact with people who were terrible in trying to break campaign finance laws. so he's put the president in harm's way. you can't have your personal attorney putting you in harm's way. i think it's time for the president to move rudy on. rudy's got his own issues to deal with and he needs a core of lawyers around him who are competent and help him navigate this. just like when he brought in emmitt flood. i would highly advise the

president to ditch rudy and get someone like that this time around. >> rudy giuliani's financial dealing with those two jailed associates are under scrutiny by investigators. would you want to know what giuliani was talking to them about just hours before they tried to leave the country on one-way plane tickets? >> this is about corrupt behavior, deliberate law breaking. this is from the head fbi agent in new york after the charges were announced. there's a lot we want to know about rudy giuliani's connections with these two. we know these men were charged and accused of laundering money from a foreign government in order to try to interfere in the u.s. elections or at least go after and get the assistance from politicians and we know they're associates of rudy giuliani and we know rudy giuliani has been involved in this effort to vetinvestigate a political opponent of the

president. if you're rudy giuliani, that shouldn't give you comfort. as i look at the facts of this case, i kind of consider these two the paul manaforts of the ukraine scandal. in the russia investigation, paul manafort wasn't directly involved in collusion but he got ensnare in all these other corrupt acts. when the fbi investigates corruption, they do what they call circling the target and you want to know everything about their associates. in investigating these two, if they find rudy giuliani involved, that will impact him a lot. >> obviously there are time considerations if, you know, the white house is going to throw up obstacles to having giuliani actually testify. >> yeah, they need to have him testify. the thing about this is is that, i mean, these two men were doing various things and obviously

tried to flee the country. it's very suspicious behavior, you know, from the get-go. but they were also involved in this campaign to get the u.s. ambassador to ukraine fired, right, and the reason for that is because she was pushing back against this idea of pressuring the ukrainian government into investigating joe biden and his son. well, who else wants that to happen? donald trump. so that's the thing that's sort of missing. i don't know that giuliani was necessarily just freelancing, right? in is something that's consistent with a transcript we have of a conversation that the president had with the president of ukraine asking him to do the same thing. so there's a lot of information -- a lot more information that we need to get about this and i think absolutely you have to do everything you can to get rudy giuliani under oath. >> scott, we haven't talked really since all of this started and so how do you see this now? i mean, the transcript, what we

now know, is it -- yeah, i'm wondering what your take is on it, how concerning is it to you? >> as i said, i think having giuliani an unelected, unappointunappoin unappointed ambassador at large galloping around europe is bad. i think the hunter and biden issues are really. any rational person would look at that, even if they didn't break any laws, it was bad of biden to follow his dad around the world picking up consulting democrats along the way. i don't believe those are illegitimate to bring up. i think the way he did it is bad judgment. is it impeachable? i don't think so. it's the last chance for pelosi to do what she can do so they're going to try to make it stick.

there are some bad facts here. giuliani seems to be in the middle of it. >> what you just said, though, about biden, though, isn't really accurate. you can complain about his son if you want -- >> it is accurate. >> the fundamental accusation that's been made against biden has been utterly debunked. you have a bipartisan group of senators having the exact same position that joe biden had regarding getting this prosecutor fired not -- it's the opposi opposite. the fundamental accusation about joe biden somehow trying to protect his son is false. >> i didn't say that -- >> then what's the story? what's so interesting about it? >> the appearance of profiteering off of his father's vice presidency, even if they didn't break any laws is terrible judgment and fair political game. there have been reporters on

this network that have said the exact same thing. it did happen and it fair political debate. i don't think the president should have raised it on the call with the president of ukraine but somebody's going to look into this. and this guy is running for office. >> you can ask questions about hunter biden is he qualified to be on that board. there's no evidence, though, that it relates in any way to joe biden. scott, appreciate it, kirstjen, josh campbell. it's a fascinating read "inside donald trump's war on the fbi." at t-mobile unlimited talk, text and data is just 30 bucks a line for 4 lines. and now you can get it on our newest, most powerful signal. no signal reaches farther or is more reliable. get 4 new lines of unlimited for just 30 bucks a line. ♪[woof] ♪

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i want to get back to the remarkable testimony from the former ambassador today based on what she calls false claims by people with clearly questionable motives. that was a quote. that was according to "the washington post." we have someone who can speak to maria yovanovitch's character. president trump spoke about ambassador yovanovitch saying she may be a wonderful woman but he doesn't know her, which is odd because he previously described her on the phone with the president of ukraine as, quote, bad news. what's your reaction to what the president has said and done to

the ambassador? >> certainly the things he said in the phone call with zelensky and his pulling her out of ukraine early were dreadful things. she did a terrific job in difficult circumstances and there was no basis to any of the claims against her. >> have you heard any legitimate explanation so far about why the president, for that matter rudy giuliani, would want the ambassador out of ukraine? >> well, we don't know for sure. but there seems to be a fair amount of at least circumstantial evidence that they wanted full-blown cooperation of the embassy to pursue this unfounded investigation into former vice president biden. >> and the figure leaf that they have been using, the idea that they -- the president and giuliani are really concerned about corruption in ukraine, i keep coming back to the notion that if president trump and giuliani were really concerned about corruption in ukraine, the

president would not be using rudy giuliani as his point man kind of skulking about talking to these ukrainian officials. i would assume that the president of the united states has far greater levers to truly investigate ongoing corruption of which, you know, there must be, you know, some ongoing and recent examples. i'm sure the treasury department has departments on corruption that the president could use. >> look, ukraine has had serious problems with corruption. they've made real progress in the past five years but more must and needs to be done. our embassy and ambassador marcia yovanovitch and there are issues of corruption if the president were to address would be wonderful. but going after vice president biden for the great job he did in combination with the ebrd, the imf, the eu, to remove an at

best inept if not corrupt prosecutor general would be the best way to proceed. >> what does it do for diplomats, career foreign officers trying to execute the policy. united states in ukraine to have someone like rudy giuliani kind of freelancing at the president's behest with a direct line to the president that apparently have nothing to do with u.s. national interests? >> this of course is dreadful leadership. a commander in chief is supposed to stand up for his troops, whether those troops are military or civilian. and here in fact we seem to have the undercutting of an ambassador who is doing, again, a very strong job. i know that her work, her strong anti-corruption work in ukraine was annoying and even angering senior officials in the previous government, including the former prosecutor general. and so they wanted to kind of get back at her.

>> can an embassy work if they don't really speak for the president? if the president has his own person conducting his own shadow -- i wouldn't even call it diplomacy, his own shadow agenda in a country, what does that do to the embassy which is actually -- the foreign service officer actually sworn to follow the constitution and to represent the legitimate interests of the united states? >> there are two points here. first, occasionally, not often, not normally, a president will have unofficial envoys. but if the policy is sensible and if the process is sensible, whatever that unofficial envoy is doing is in tandem with the official envoy. what we've had here are two very different things. our ambassador, masha

yovanovitch was following policy to go after corruption. and here you have an envoy taking their word for it and undercutting. it's critical there be a clear chain of command, the instruction be sound and the ambassador working those issues is not undercut. unfortunately the ambassador was not only undercut but removed without foundation. >> ambassador herbst, appreciate your time, thank you. >> coming up, more on my conversation with use sesusan rd why she decided to call her book "tough love." all day strong. alice loves the smell of gain so much, she wished it came in a fabric softener too. [throat clears]

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of those, nearly 9 out of 10 sustained it through 1 year. and skyrizi is 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. ♪ i see nothing in a different way ♪ ♪ and it's my moment so i just gotta say ♪ ♪ nothing is everything skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or coughs, or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. ♪ nothing is everything ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. ♪ susan rice was both national security adviser to president obama and the u.s. ambassador to the united nations. i spoke with her earlier in the week about the current impeachment drive, the ukraine controversy and president trump's decision to withdraw american troops from northern syria, a decision that triggered the turkish invasion.

we also talked about her family and how they've impacted her. ambassador rice is the author of the new book "tough love: my story of the things worth fighting for." i got to say for me, kind of the star of the book is your mom. i know she's not the main focus but -- >> she's a star absolutely. >> somebody who had a strong, interesting mom, and i know your mom has passed away, which makes me sad that she isn't able to read this book. >> i'm sorry about your mom, too. >> yeah, thank you. but she had your back. when you were asked to go on the sunday talk shows which led to the comments on benghazi, which ultimately became such a focus for your opponents, i mean she watched so much tv, she warned you not to do it. she smelled -- she was like, you're going on all five shows on a sunday? >> she said, i smell a rat. you know, my mom loved me fiercely as did my dad.

but not uncritically. that's a large reason why i call the book "tough love." it's how i was raised. it's how i tried to raise my own kids. but she said to me, like, why are you doing this because i had explained it wasn't my plan for the weekend. i was planning to take my kids to the ohio state football game that saturday. that was my weekend plan. by the way i still did it because i didn't want to break my commitment to them. i said i had been asked by the white house, because secretary clinton had declined. she had said to them that, you know, it was a rough week. i didn't want to do it, but because i was asked and i felt a responsibility to the team, i said yes. my mom's like, no. you shouldn't do that. and what she perceived intuitively -- and she'd just come off of her fourth or fifth cancer surgery and a stroke -- was that in the hothouse of a political campaign and a crisis where the facts are evolving, that, you know, the messenger is

likely to be shot at just as much as the message. >> and the first messenger, the first person who steps out. >> right. >> -- to give what is then the assessment, the latest information, the latest unclassified information -- >> however much you caveat it, which i did, and however much accurate it was at the time, which it was, it did turn out to be in one critical respect wrong. and she had this sort of foresight, impressions, and very unvarnished way of telling me and my brother what we should do or not do. >> a hospice worker i once read said that with cancer, at least you have some time because you're able to talk to your loved one in a way that, you know, you're able to say what you want to say. if this is too personal, it's fine, but you write a lot about your mom. was her loss -- was it different than you -- like the aftermath of it, was it different than you thought it was going to be because i found it's a lot different than i imagined it was going to be.

>> well, so i lost both my parents during the obama administration. my dad passed in 2011. i was also very, very close to him. my mom passed january 4th, 2017, so just before the end of the administration. even after this, you know, cancer surgery that i just described and her stroke, she's tough as nails. she lasted, you know, another four-plus years. and i really did feel thankfully with both my parents that despite some of the turbulence of my childhood with them, that i was really at peace, that i had been able to be there for them, and that they had imparted to me what they felt they needed to. so it was -- it's hugely, you know, crushing loss. and for me with my mom, it came at a time when i really didn't have the ability to process it. you know, we had to get through the transition. we had so many things on our plate, and it was only really after i left government that i could kind of feel the weight of

the loss. and the only thing i can say, anderson -- and i think you know this. you never get over that void of losing your parents. but i feel like they're still with me, and they're here in this book. they're with my kids. you know, they're whispering in my ear, telling me, you know, right from wrong still to this day, still giving me tough love. >> yeah. the book is "tough love." thank you so much. >> thank you. >> ambassador rice's book is out now. we'll be right back. ♪ do you recall, not long ago ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on

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