this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we'll start today's show with president trump's decision on syria. i talk about how it's been received around the world with president obama's national

security adviser, susan rice. >> what president trump has done is give a get out of jail free card to about 10,000 terrorists. the president's infamous phone call and why rice wasn't satisfied when obama offered her the u.n. ambassadorship. and david miliban with consequences on the ground in syria. and our last so-called china whisperer, billionaire steven schwartz. when he thinks the trade war between the largest economies will end. finally a novel idea to put a divided america back together, get the two sides talking. really talking. but first, here's my take. i have long opposed the various efforts to impeach donald trump. overturning an election should be a rare event undertaken in

only the most extreme circumstances. the process would create deep wounds in an already divided nation. and as a practical matter, since it's highly unlikely that a republican-controlled senate would vote by a two-third majority for conviction, the political effect could well be to vindicate trump and aid his reelection. but the events of the last few weeks have led me to support an impeachment inquiry. to direct american foreign policy for personal, political gain is the definition of abuse of power. but what has been far more troubling than that phone call to ukraine is trump's refusal to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry. other presidents have contested a specific subpoena or request for documents. donald trump is effectively rejecting congress' ability to hold him accountable. the rule of law has been built

over centuries in the western world but it remains fragile because it is based on a bluff. the bluff is that at the highest level, everyone will respect the rules, even though it might not be possible always to force compliance. the rule at the heart of the american system is the separation of powers. the founders' greatest fear was that too much power in the hands of government would mean the end of liberty. so they ensured the power was shared and that each branch would act as a check on the other. the crucial feature for james madison, the chief architecture of the constitution, was that giving to those who administer each department or branch the necessary constitutional means and personal motives to resist encroachments of the others. but the system only works if all sides respect it. at the end of the day, congress

sdn does not have an army or police force at its disposal. nor does the supreme court. these institutions rely on the president to accept their equality and enforce their laws and rulings. when the supreme court held unanimously that richard nixon could not use executive privilege to withhold the watergate tapes, nixon immediately agreed to comply, even though he knew it would mean the end of his presidency. all modern u.s. presidents, both republican and democratic, have expanded their powers. but trump is on a different planet. he has refused to comply with wholly constitutional legislative requests for documents, information and testimony. he has diverted money toward a project clearly not funded by congress, reportedly promised pard pardons for officials who might break the law. he has now doubled down on congressional oversight on him.

for trump's provisions to fail, the democrats have become dictator. the democrats, meanwhile, are on firm political ground. they should ensure this impeachment inquiry is and looks fair. they should follow the precedents laid down during the last two impeachment investigations. the inquiry should be undertaken as a great act of public education. a democracy can turn into a tourney over time. they can simply decide to weaken legislative constraints or checks. liberation has risen slowly but steadily. it was a liberal democracy and within a few short years became a totalitarian dictatorship.

reflecting on that, timothy snyder writes, the conclusions for conservatives of today emerge clearly. do not break the rules that hold a republic together, because one day you will need order. for more go to cnn.com/fareed and read my article this week. and let's get started. last sunday night the white house sent shock waves through the american national security community and threw the corridors of power around the world with its announcement about syria. the u.s. was gone from northern syria, the statement said, and turkey was moving in. on wednesday turkey's operation began with airstrikes, artillery fire and troops and death and destruction and condemnation. i want to talk about syria and ukraine and much more with hi next guest, susan rice.

susan was president obama's ambassador to the u.n. and then his national security adviser. she is author of a new book, "tough love: my story of the things worth fighting for." pleasure having you on. >> it's great to be with you, fareed. >> before we get to syria and ukraine, i need to ask you about the moment you write your book, when president obama calls you and asks you to be his ambassador to the united nations, a storied position, a cabinet position, and you respond by saying, well, thanks very much, but i was hoping you would ask me to be national security adviser. i think the technical term for that is hutzpah. >> yes. that's the polite term. >> why did you do that and what was his reaction? >> actually, his reaction was quite cool. he said, i really would consider that down the road, but in the moment, i wanted somebody -- because he was dealing with the financial crisis -- that it

would be perceived as able to step in the job and hit the ground running on day one, and he wanted a general for that. you'll recall he spoke general jim jones, who is a four-star naval commander. he said, look, i really want you to go to the u.n., and i think you'll do a great job, and let's see what happens after that. >> it does give you a reputation. >> you know what, fareed, i think lots of guys would have done the same. i say that in the book. one of the things i admired most about president obama was he didn't expect differently of women than men. it took a little guts to say that. it was honestly how i felt. i was ready to accept it was his choice to make. but what i say in the book is women have to advocate for themselves, and if they don't, other people won't. many of my male colleagues have done much more than that, quite honestly. >> all right. let me ask you about syria.

another word you used to describe the president's decision is batshit crazy. >> are we allowed to say that? i did not say that on cnn. >> this is basic cable. let's talk about trump's argument, which is not one others haven't made, we shouldn't be in this, this is a complicated civil war, we don't really have a good side to support. in a sense that was president obama's decision. why is trump not right to say, let's just get out. >> you're right, fareed, it is complicated. we need to break it down for the american people, because this is not an involvement we got into to be on one side of syria's civil war. president obama made the difficult choice not to involve us in a syrian civil war, between assad and the rebels. what he did decide to do was deploy u.s. personnel, mostly in

terms of air power, but some advisers are on the ground to the security of our allies in europe. it's not picking sides in a civil war. president trump inherited that operation well underway with isis on the ropes. largely, they have been contained in the caliphate such as it was dismantled. as we've seen many times in this part of the world, isis or al qaeda or whatever it is has the ability to reconstitute itself. so our presence in northern syria, and we're really talking about just a few hundred u.s. military advisers, trainers, was essential to supporting the kurds, thousands of whom took the fight to isis on our behalf with our pledge of support.

and what we did in walking away from them was two really bad things. one, was it essentially convey the message to them and to any potential ally around the world, when we wake up on the wrong side of the war and left it in a brutal assault to slaughter these kurds. the second reason it's so dangerous is because the fight against isis is not entirely won. there are 10,000 or more isis prisoners who had been in kurdish custody who now will be either released or escape, because tin effect what the president has done is give a get out of jail free card to about 10,000 terrorists. if that doesn't interfere with our national security in a

terrible way, i don't know what does. >> what's striking about this decision, it seems as though president trump has these emotional reactions with which he wants to translate into polic policy,. the policy people think it's difficult to do, so they slow-walk a lot of it. it seemed like the pentagon -- trump had all but announced wemp getti -- we were getting out of syria months and months ago. they slow-walk it and then has a phone call with the leader, oh, my god, we still have troops in syria. have you seen a process like that? >> i have seen no process. i wish i could call this a process. i don't think it's coincidental that it occurs when we have a brand new security adviser, and even newer, chair chaffs of staff.

i don't think it's a convince dense just -- confidence. what was in this for him personally, politically or financially or for the united states? because democrats and republicans who rarely agree on anything these days are in agreement that there is nothing good in this for the united states and our national security. when we come back, we will talk about another phone call, president trump's infamous phone call with ukraine's president zelensky. in the storied tradition of his great-great-grandmother,

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let's change the way we see pv. you track and discuss blood counts with your doctor. but it's just as vital to discuss changing symptoms as well. take notice and take action. discuss counts and symptoms with your doctor. visit takeactionpv.com we are back now with susan rice, former security adviser, former ambassador to the u.n. and the author of "tough love: we story of the things worth fighting for." let me ask you about ukraine, first the issue that you dealt with when you were national security adviser, when joe biden was sent to ukraine. as you know, the argument that donald trump makes and now repeatedly makes over and over again is biden went there, asked them to fire a special prosecutor who was investigating

corruption in ukraine, including a company that hunter biden, joe biden's son, was on the board of. and that in that sense, he was advancing his personal interests in u.s. foreign policy. what do you say? >> it's very simple, but since donald trump has done such a good job of trying to confuse people, let me break it down. in the first instance, joe biden was acting on bhaehalf of the u. government. at president obama's direction, he was supporting democrats in congress, our western allies, the monetary fund which was to try to persuade president p porachenko to get rid of corruption. we did that because the u.s. was providing billions of dollars to the newly elected government of

ukraine and we wanted to see that money spent responsibly. that was the basis of vice president biden's actions. by the way, it had nothing to do with his son hunter. his son hunter, the company that hunter served was was not in that moment under investigation by this prosecutor. so this has been one of those very elaborate efforts by donald trump to distract and deflect and to tar an opponent based on lies. it was in the public domain at that time. there is no secret here. just to be clear, what the difference between what vice president biden did on behalf of u.s. policy and what president trump did on behalf of his political benefit, trump asked -- first of all, trump extorted the newly elected president of ukraine using almost $4 $400 million in taxpa

military assistance to ukraine when ukraine is occupied by a hostile russia and there's still a hot war going on. he said, we're going to keep that aid back. i'm not going to give you a white house meeting unless you give me dirt, which doesn't exist, on his political opponent. >> are you sure that wasn't quid pro quo? >> read the transcript. it's there in black and white. that's how i'm sure. and the fact that the president put it out and thinks there's nothing wrong with it, that it's perfect, shows you that he really doesn't have a sense of the difference between right and wrong. leaving that aside for a second, president trump extorts a partner who is under duress for his personal, political benefit. not on behalf of our policy. what's striking to me about the former political adviser in that transcript is there is not one sentence in there that advances u.s. policy or policy interests. not one. it's all about him.

the other part of the difference is that then the trump white house tried to hide that transcript and bury it. >> let me ask you about foreign policy in general. do you feel as though -- i mean, i watched the syria business, and the president makes an announcement one day, then he realizes that maybe he's been too soft on the turks, and he says, i'm going to closely obliterate the contact, which he did do in his unconventional wisdom, then he feels maybe he's been too hard on the turks and invites everyone for a white house meeting, all of this in 72 hours. >> and then he says he told the turks not to cross into syria. >> which they then do. >> which, of course, he knew they were going to do. >> so this is all in 72 hours. >> head-spinning. >> what do you think the world takes from it? >> the world takes from this, fareed, that we have no idea what we're doing and that the

national security decision-making process is completely broken down. as i discuss in my book, which is as much a personal story as it is about my time in the clinton and obama administrations, whether you work for president reagan, bush 1, bush 2, clinton, obama, there was a national security decision-making process that we all tried to adhere to from the bottom up with facts, analysis, with intelligence, with policy options that were debated, you know, and assessed on their merits, recommendations made from deputies to principals, from principals to the president of the united states all in a thoughtful and accountable way. and then when the president makes a decision, there is a plan for how it's communicated. it's not tweeted out at some odd hour with exclamation points. there is a really thoughtful communication strategy that involves consulting with our

allies, that involves ensuring that congress is briefed. all of that has broken down. i think it's really important for the american people to understand that this is not normal. it's dysfunctional. it's dangerous. and we can't allow it to become the norm. so, you know, i'm perfectly prepared to submit, and i'm honest about this in my book, we didn't get everything right. and where we did get it right, i try to be frank about it, and if we get it wrong, i would be frank about it. the process, when adhered to, doesn't necessarily yield perfect answers but it yields thoughtful consideration, and that's all lost now. and we have got to get it back. >> susan rice, a pleasure to have you on. >> good to be with you. next on "gps," the on-the-ground consequences of president trump's syria decision. i will talk to david hill

hillenbrand, head of one of the few aid agencies actually on the ground. what's this? cindy, that cold's gonna keep you up all night. and tomorrow, you're gonna be a zombie! forget that, i'm taking a new nighttime cold medicine. ha! there's nothing new. 'fraid so. new mucinex nightshift cold & flu fights my worst symptoms so i can sleep great and wake up human. so, you don't want to be zombie. no, i've gotta work tomorrow. don't eat me, i taste terrible! new mucinex nightshift cold & flu. uniquely formulated to fight your worst symptoms so you can sleep great and wake up human.

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what has been the effect of president trump's decision on the ground in syria? well, david milliband runs one of the few agencies that remains on the ground in syria. he was former secretary of the united kingdom. welcome. >> thank you. >> what has happened as you see this turkish advance? what do you hear? >> we know from our own staff on the ground these are local syrians working for us, that tens of thousands of people are

fleeing bombing and fighting. these are people in the 5 million person kurdish zone. they're of all ethnicities, but they are kurds and they are fleeing from the turkish invasion. it's as simple as that. there is great concern about the future of the humanitarian situation in that zone and more widely if the fighting spreads. >> and the other thing that's happening is the turks are trying to use this space that they're conquering to resettle a whole bunch of syrian refugees. but that in itself is frought with complications. explain why. >> occur kturkey has done an ine job. thousands of syrians have fled to turkey. they are in the euphrates river. >> not kurds. >> and not kurds. and what the president has said is he wants to take the sunni

arabs that are in turkey and plop them in the kurdish area of syria. that obviously raises immediate issues about local tension as well as the fighting between the kurds and the turks. this would be a deportation, effectively, against the will of the people, against the u.n. and other regulations. >> what's extraordinary to me is that this had been such an example of the limited but effective use of american power. a few hundred american troops seem to have been able to maintain the peace. >> that is a great point. of course, we at the international rescue community can see the situation in the kurdish area. where we were delivering our services, we helped about half a million people with health kaca last year, and we can see the contrast between syria and the northwest. in the northwest, it's a total war zone. you have 3.5 million people

there, you have russian bombing, you have syrian government pushing in, and you have bombing of civilian centers, bombing of hospitals, over 500 hospitals bombed since may. so you've got this very clear contrast between an area where the ring was being held by american troops and an area where it's the wild west. >> what is the larger point about american foreign policy here, from your point of view? >> it's summed up in a simple word: vacuum. there is no american diplomatic presence of a significant kind in trying to bring the syrian conflict to an end and establish some kind of stability. it's a general crisis of diplomacy. because america is in retreat, britain has been castrated by the brexit process. there is no separation from policy. so the field has been left for russia, for iran, for turkey to work through the so-called approach that has replaced the u.n. as the central body organizing a peacemaking

settlement in syria. >> good to know that. a pleasure having you on. >> thank you very much, indeed. stomp nex next, america is a country divided, divided on beaimpeachm, divided in the center of the aisle. i will bring you a solution to that division, when we come back. to help people that were voiceless in his country. that put a fire in my heart. it made me realize where i got my passion for social justice. bring your family history to life like never before. get started for free at ancestry.com anyoonly marco's can deliver america's most loved pizza. hot and fresh, and right to your door. every day, get two medium, one-topping pizzas for just $6.99 each. hello to america's most loved pizza. hello marco's.

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for our "what in the world" segment. everybody agrees that americans are more polarized today than any time in recent history. but there is a group of experts who are trying to do something about it. last month an experiment called "america in one move" was led by james fishkin, the head of stanford's center for democracy and larry diamond. in an assembly in dallas, they took registered voters from all over central america. there they spent a long weekend talking about immigration, foreign policy, health care, the economy and the environment. perhaps shocking, the two sides weren't at each other's throats all weekend long. instead participants pored over briefing booklets and consulted with experts. they broke into small discussion groups and poured out their feelings. >> separating families, how can we continue to do that?

>> before the sessions and then after, they were polled, and the results were astonishing. support for immigrant work visas soared. our position for immigrants entering the u.s. plummeted. on the economy, people moved from left to center. people changed their minds. it's all in an effort of deliberative polling. perhaps most astonishing was the position of republicans. their support for foreign policy rose 62%. how can we explain such a massive shift? remember, a polarized electorate is for those who want change.

just ask fishkin. he said he conducted 109 deliberative polls in 28 countries. they almost always result in that conclusion. take bulgaria. the "new york times" reported in 2007, 255 people met for two days to discuss the plight of the roma, one of the new york's my mort groups who has struggled to integrate. support for desegregating roma schools went from 42% to 66% after. support for segregation of housing units fell from 43% to 21%. protestants and catholics mixed for a day of deliberation over school policy. afterward, the support for protestants and catholics rose statistically and vice versa. what all of this makes clear is no conflict of policy puzzle is retractible if you engage

citizens. and that can be extended beyond poland. look at ireland. many think the historical referendum that legalized abortion last year not been possible had the government not convened in an assembly of 99 citizens to debate the matter two years earlier. the assembly ended up with unrestricted access to abortion. environmental groups think they could help solve policy gridlock over the climate crisis. if such assemblies are really empowered, they might do what fishkin suggests. anything is possible when people start engaging with each other and with their government. next on "gps," president trump's so-called china whisperer. the billionaire businessman steven schwartzman. what is his take on whether this trade war will end? back in a moment.

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a new round of u.s.-china trade caultalks this week actua made some progress. >> we've come to a deal on intellectual property, financial

services, a tremendous deal for the farmers. >> multi-billionaire businessman and philanthropist steven schwartzman has a unique perspective on those meetings and all u.s.-china relations. he is the chair and ceo of blackstone, a top financial firm. and schwartzman stands astride the pa sicific and capital nati. he's been called a boon to president trump. his book is called "what it takes: less snonz the field -- the field of excellence." mr. schwartzman, welcome. >> it's good to be here. >> why are you called a trump intermediary? >> the reason it's hard to get a deal is one side of it has been growing faster than any country in world history over the last

40 years. their desire to change isn't overwhelming. but they're smart, and they know that change is important. so the question is, how much change? how fast? and that's just the debate. the idea of staying where we are isn't going to work. >> do you think the chinese are in agreement? >> i don't believe the chinese are in agreement. it will end up hurting sales to china, it will end up hurting europe. this is a lose-lose-lose for everyone. it's just a question when people come to the table and say, okay, what do we really have to do? it was pretty close in may, and

the chinese decided to pull back for reasons that we're -- were not fully explainable at the time. it was pretty shocking for the u.s. people who were working on it, and i think they have their own complex internal situation in china. however, just decoupling or delinking as the two biggest economies in the world, and we're a lot of the world economy. it could be as low as 35% of the world economy with u.s. and china. some calculations would take it close to 40. so when the parents are fighting, the children get very upset. and so i don't think that a delinking strategy is stable for the world.

>> do you think president trump agrees with you? >> you should ask him, not me. >> let me ask you, one of the things in your book, you talk about how it's very good to worry, to be concerned about any ominous signs. you have a unique vantage point. do you think we are at the beginning of a recession? >> i don't think so. the reason for that is about 72% of the u.s. economy is consumer based, and the consumers are doing extremely well. and part of what's happening as we increase the minimum wage in a full sort of working economy is that minimum wage is higher as it's going up, and other labor costs because of scarcity are going up. so that's about 4% growth in wages with an economy that's growing, too, and inflation that is somewhere, i guess, around

1.5. so for the first time in a very, very long time, the consumer is out earning the growth of the economy. >> so does that mean raising the minimum wage was a good idea? >> i always thought it was a good idea. we have an issue where we don't have enough people in the country who are earning enough money, and they're hurting. so you have to have, you know, then have what i call income sufficiency, and one of the ways of having that transfer is to have people working as opposed to just a transfer of payment, and to have those people working, you make a lot more money. and that's a good thing for the country. >> so a lot of people look at business and say, look, everyone is trying to be successful. some people manage to be successful. they get lucky. then they think that their world view is the blessed one. what do you think?

how much of -- you have achieved phenomenal success in business. how much of that success was luck? >> well, i think luck always plays some part. it depends where you were born. it depends where you went to school. it depends on what's happening in the world when you entered the work force. is it going up? is it, you know, sort of in an unhappy period, or is it just stable? i was fortunate to be in year number two of the baby boom after world war ii, so there wasn't a lot of people ahead of you, which made it easier. and my generation basically changed almost every institution it went through because it was the equivalent of the pig and the python. we were so big that tevery

institution educationally, consumerwise was impacted and changed by my constitution. it made it easier to be, in effect, a senior member by birth of that covert. >> it was a lectupleasure to hau on. >> it was a pleasure to be here. for more on mr. schtartzman's book, go to cnn.com/fareed. kim is now demonstrating her congestion. save it slimeball. i've upgraded to mucinex. we still have 12 hours to australia. mucinex lasts 12 hours, so i'm good. now move- kim nooooooo! only mucinex has a patented tablet that lasts 3x longer, for 12 hours.

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as the debate continues over who is welcoming america, just under 2 million residents of another country have had their legal status thrown into question after being excluded from an official citizen registry. it brings me to my question. where was the citizen registry

published? india, poland, south africa or israel. stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. my book of the week is "age of ambitions" by evan osmus. at a time when everyone is talking about china, it is worth remembering beyond beijing, it is a world full of contradict n contradictio contradictions. evan portrays this very nicely in his last book. the answer to my question is a, india. they published an outdated registry of citizens who might make millions of citizens stateless. huge numbers of mostly muslim

fled genocidal violence from bangladesh into india. they built detention camps with capacities in the thousands. the not clear what will become of those excluded from the list. officials say no one will be sent to the detention centers during the legal process. the bbc reports that the head of the nationalist party planned to review the process in the state of istanbul, and reuters has called such undocumented people infi infi infiltrators of congress. thank you for joining me. i will see you next week. , old . because the italian way is worth celebrating.

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hello, everyone. thank you so much for joining me this sunday. i'm fredricka whitfield. we begin with breaking news. all u.s. troops ordered out of syria. the defense secretary said the u.s. had no other choice but to order a deliberate withdrawal. >> now what we're facing is u.s. forces trapped between a syrian russian army moving north to take on the turkish army that is moving south. it puts us in a terrible position, and the protection and safety of our service members comes first to me. i spoke with the national security team yesterday. we all talked on the phone. i talked