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tv   Cuomo Prime Time  CNN  October 16, 2019 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT

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host jones, which is still on going. you can stream at cnn live full circle. i want to hand it over to chris for "cuomo prime time." >> we have new information that changes the scope and the timing of a clearly widening fbi investigation into this president's lawyer. this is far bigger than just a criminal probe. what to you say, let's get after it. so here's our new understanding. since at least early 2019, the fbi has been investigating counterintelligence concerns regarding rudy giuliani and his activities abroad. this is not speculation. it's from a lawyer who says he was questioned by the feds
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these issues. at the same time the president was allowing his personal lawyer to run a shadow foreign policy agenda in ukraine, if not elsewhere, the feds were being l looking into whether giuliani was posing a national security risk. a source tells cnn the investigation partly hinges on whether foreign actors were trying to take range of giuliani's business connections to reach the white house. this comes, the two guys that were indicted, who paid giuliani, known for not the best kinds of activities, news now of a fourth being taken into custody. f today is the 1,000th day of the trump presidency. did you ever think we'd be where we are? let's bring in the fbi insiders to make sense of this, andrew mccabe and jim baker. thank you so much. there's too much to just bandy about here. so we got the wall going
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tonight. just to show, you know, a little bit of a flow chart of what we see as the spoke coming off the hub that is obviously giuliani. and now just to bring people up to speed on what we're looking at, these highlighted references, counterintelligence is different than criminal. it's not just about looking at statutes, it's about looking at the nature of behavior and what it could mean from a national security perspective. you now have iran and speeches. let's leave that aside for now. the state department, what was going on with ukraine, how that dovetails with his work for turkey and now one or more dlien clients that needed something from the united states government. was he their lawyer? hasn't been clear. there are a lot of big concerns. andrew, let's start with you. when you look at the new information about what giuliani was trying to do for people involved in turkey and the
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meetings that were had, what stands out to you that was new in the state of play? >> el with, chris, i think it's helpful to eroo mind ourselves that the standard for opening an fbi counterintelligence case is when you have information, credible facts that indicate a threat to national security might exist. when you think about that standard and you look at the facts, the few facts that we know and, mind you, the southern district i'm sure has many more facts than we do but you see mr. giuliani reportedly repeatedly lobbying the president and others in the administration to return -- ghoulan is a cleric, he's here. he now has residence in the united states. erdogan believes he was part of a coup to get him. he wants him back. giuliani, all of a sudden, goes to the united states president and says you should give ghoulan
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back. so the question becomes why meep says i wasn't working for turkey. assuming he's telling the truth, who else would want ghoulan returned? >> this is exactly right. as andy was saying, starting an investigation, i would think of it as asking a question, do we have a basis to open the investigation and, if so, what is going on here? exactly what you're saying. what was mr. giuliani doing? who was he working for? what level of knowledge did he have about what the foreign government authorities were trying to do and so that is what i assume that the fbi is trying to sort out. the facts are very confusing, but that's typical with a counterintelligence probe because the adversaries are trying to make it difficult for us to figure out what's going on. one of the things i expect the fbi is focused on is not giuliani per se but what the foreign actors were trying to do and trying to assess whether mr. giuliani, did he know what
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was going on, was he participating, what level of involvement did he have or was he merely a dupe who was being used by more sophisticated actors trying to influence u.s. policy because of mr. giuliani's direct access to the president of the united states. a foreign adversary would cherish that type of access to the president. were they playing him? >> just an editorial point for the audience, i find it so hard to believe that anybody could play rudy giuliani on this level. the players we know about so far, these guys who have been indicted, it would be shocking to me if the man i've known all these years to be manipulated by people at this level. i have to put it out there because my interest is fairness. that's ghoulan. this is a question of who was rudy helping to deal with this.
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he hasn't said i just felt it was unfair so i'll talk to my -- oh, i'm a little sloppy. i'm not the wizard of oz here. the question there is -- at the same time he says i'm not working for any government and i don't have to register as a lobbyist but i can't talk to you about why i was trying to get this iranian turkish gold dealer out of a criminal situation with the united states because of attorney/client privilege. okay, so he's the lawyer. does that mean he is exempt from any laws requiring registration? >> it does not. interest are certain exemptions build into fara that you're referring to and his accusation and lobbying on behalf to the president might not qualify him
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for that exemption. the important thing is not just that he pushed for them but that he did boththese were two people who were incredibly important to the president of turkey to get them back, ghoulan because he's got a vendetta against the guy and also he has information that leads right back toered in do i escape scrutiny, jim? >> no. the question is whether you were working for a foreign principal and not registering -- >> it doesn't have to be a government. it could be a person or a corporation in. >> yes, i think that's receipt. i mean, i do think that there is -- the russian intelligence services are more sophisticated
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to rudy giuliani prp i'm sorry to at the turkishish, somebody else we just don't know. >> on this side, this whole circle of considerations are this is all about money, all right. who was rudy paying, that's supposed to be a u technically, that's the u.s., the dollar sign, who was paying rudy, who was paying with the gold dealer, what were these peaches in in, the idea of this being pro bono takes us into a whole other side of the analysis. of what we've heard of all of this coordinated testimony saying,up, it was shad ard be
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again go on with this, where does that lead you as an investigator? >> on the counterintelligence side one of the thing you're always concerned about are access and and influence racial and that may be being used by a foreign power. so it doesn't matter in essence, you know, the counterintelligence investigators are not going to be so focused on what state department's reaction was to giuliani's activity. they are simply looking at what he did and who he was acting on behalf of. the fact that efficiency in there lobbying for, in the case of the turks it appears to be on several different fro which as you understand it, he explains by saying my for business ventures to the u.s. government, i'm just helping them in foreign
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countries if those and. >> jimmy: and some of the testimony today be, if. >> he heard testimony from someone today that sub sfak who would have thought that the best thing rudy giuliani has going on for him and our president is this belief in a nonsense conspiracy theory about who was out to get the president in 2016. that's the only part of this that's clean, fellas, if they believe the ukrainian conspiracy theory, that was the only legit corporation hefs there are so
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many questions going forward. i will need you then. i appreciate you now. this is complicated stuff, this fara. it easy to say an acronym, but to understand what do you have to register for and when. >>. >> follow the foreign money. when does it become a concern? an expert next. like a way to fight cancer by arming a patient's own t-cells... because it's not just about the next breakthrough... it's all the ones after that. i am totally blind. and non-24 can make me show up too early... or too late.
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implications are high for our democracy and frankly for mr. giuliani. now, david kauffman knows this corner of the law well. he oversaw enforcement of this law for the d.o.j. and now helps clients navigate this complicated framework. it's so good for you come in. i appreciate it. let's start macro, get micro. why do we care about this? when you look at how often it's used, it's very discrete, it's irregul irregular. with flynn it was used as a political gotcha, we were told. why does this matter, this area of the law? >> this was a statute enacted in the 1930s by pro nazi german elements of the united states, engaged in subversive propaganda activities so that the u.s. people or lawmakers when confronted with content, whether lobbying or an op-ed, can make
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an informed assessment based on who the real party is behind it. if it's a foreign party, the american people should be able to take that into account and assigning whatever weight they want. >> if you're rudy giuliani and you're being paid to solicit any help from the united states in the form of the president or whatever, you need to register. >> the way it works is that if you are acting in the united states on behalf of a foreign principal, broadly defined to include not only governments but foreign political parties, it could be a foreign corporation, a nonprofit and you're engaged in certain conduct described as triggering certain activities, you have an obligation within ten days of even entering into an agreement. >> do you think rudy has
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exposure? sfw >> i think there are legitimate questions to unpack what he, did under bhwhose knowledge he did . this move -- >> he says i'm not representing turkey. >> that would be something that investigators would look into. if he's not representing a foreign interest, they be whose interest is he representing in seeking to bring about something that is among the highest priorities of the turkish government? >> he hasn't been very specific, certainly not to the media or american public and he has to our understanding not been with investigators yet, he says he doesn't even need a lawyer.
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>> if he were works as a lawyer -- >> if he were engaged in civil or criminal proceedings, he could come within the scope of this exemption. the trump administration doesn't think the ambassador is with the program, those things would fall outside the protection of this exemption. >> how easy of a case is that to make? if rudy says you're wrong, i'm not representing any of these people and you're not going to get your hands on them as foreign nationals, how do you make the case? >> he invited the government to examine his digital devices for starters. the government is going to interview witnesses, if they
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have a grand jury empanelled, they could subpoena bank records, issue sent arch warran for his e-mail records. you get a mosaic -- >> it's not like congress, you're supposed to obey their subpoenas also but they don't have the teeth of the d.o.j. >> these are grand jury subpoenas. >> you have those two instances that we've learned about that spur counterintelligence, it's not so much about a crime but about national security issues and then you move to the people who are indicted for supposedly trying to funnel russian money into the accusation, into u.s. elections. rudy was also being paid for them. they seem to have had aligned interests in removing then ambassador to the ukraine, where does that take? >> it seems to call out fara. they were charged with campaign finance violations.
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it's likely the southern district of new york if they're conducting as broad based an investigation as the newspapers tell us they are there's some element of that that includes whether mr. giuliani committed a violation of fara. one has to willfully violate and you knew you had an obligation to register and will think do so. it's a higher burden of proof for the government to establiestablish. >> in isically kated stuff. -- this is complicated stuff. but for the american president, he has some explaining to do about who he was helping and why he was doing these things because they're starting to stack you. thank you so much in advance. i ask you to help me understand these things as we go forward and we get more meat on the bones. >> happy to do so. >> i appreciate it, the beginning of what i think will be a long relationship. >> so foreign policy concerns. things are starting to dovetail.
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on a very separate issue but of course of major importance to us, the letter from the president, to the president of turkey today. nothing about any of the rudy things, but about the kurds. senator chris murphy is here and he's got two purposes for us today. he can help us understand the state of play on syria and our allies and what's going to happen about it and what did he hear in congress today in testimony that helps understand the range of concerns about what happened in ukraine with this president and his lawyer, next. life isn't a straight line. things happen. and sometimes you can find yourself heading in a new direction. but at fidelity, we help you prepare for the unexpected with retirement planning and advice for what you need today and tomorrow. because when you're with fidelity, a partner who makes sure every step is clear, there's nothing to stop you from moving forward.
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the more we learn, the more troubling the situation is. just as demonstrable fact, there's no supposition necessary, president trump reportedly wanted his then secretary of state, rex tillerson, to help broker a deal to get a turkish gold trader out of water. why would a president deal with something that discrete? guess who was working on the matter and guess who the president wanted our secretary of state to work with? rudy giuliani. the president is going to have to answer for how he paid rudy back for his free legal work. i don't know even know legally whether this president could accept something of that much monetary value for free. and on top of that, all of these new questions about what rudy's interests were, financial and otherwise, those questions take us to the senate foreign relations committee. today they had testimony from a senior state department official. let's get to democratic senator
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and member of that committee, senator chris murphy. i got to tell you, senator, the questions have been stacking up faster than i expected here. i thought we were going to be one and done with ukraine as an analysis. where is your head after what you heard today? >> well, i mean, this is really hard to understand how rudy giuliani effectively became the most powerful foreign policy figure in the trump administration, how he became the shadow secretary of state. we are learning more and more about how he was essentially running our ukraine policy and directing a whole host of senior officials that were operating through his direction. but we're now learning more and more by the hour about how integral he's been to the president's bizarre policy with respect to turkey. as you mentioned today, we heard testimony from a senior official at the state department who
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confirmed he had taken a couple meetings with rudy giuliani with respect to this request giuliani was making to let off this gold trader from prosecution for avoiding u.s. sanctions. >> did rudy admit to that, senator? just to have the audience follow along, did rudy tell the official i represent this guy, i'm his lawyer? >> so we certainly didn't learn that today. what brian hook, the state department official, said was former attorney general mukasi came in and he brought rudy giuliani with him both times. we have this other reporting suggesting that trump asked tillerson on giuliani's behalf to try to step in. it's important to note there's no national security rationale for letting somebody like this off the hook for avoiding sanctions. remember, trump has been making a huge deal over the course of the last two years about how he is imposing these crippling
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sanctions on iran. so why on earth was this one individual afforded preference treatment other than he had rudy giuliani showing for him. >> where does that take you in terms of what your concerns are when you look at the broader question of this president and his abuse of office with what we learned about with rudy giuliani and ukraine? >> so, listen, i think it's hard right now to jump to conclusions. you hinted at one possible explanation. if rudy giuliani was running ukraine policy for the president and prying to get the bidens and the clintons investigated and wasn't charging the president for that work, was the president giving him consideration in some other form through turkey policy changes that benefited rudy's bottom line? listen, we don't know that to be the case today, but we can't come up with any policy reasons why trump was doing giuliani's
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bidding and we can't figure out why giuliani was doing the ukraine work for free on behalf of the president. so there's lots of dots to connect here but it does suggest that this ukraine story, which we know is corruption at its core, may be connected to some of the strange things that have been happening surrounding turkey. >> i'm shocked that rudy giuliani believes he does not need a lawyer at this time. he's got a counterintel and a criminal investigation going on by trump's d.o.j. i know it belongs to the american people but it cannot be easy to get that kind of probe started against the president lawyer in this current political climate. now to the bigger concerned. the president had this letter that had to be penned him today. here's a letter that was released i guess to help bolster the idea that this president is serving american interests in turkey, kind of insulting the turkish leader about don't be a fool, i'll come after you, do the right thing. is it fair to say, senator, the
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only reason we're in this situation of watching the kurds fighting for their lives is because of what this president did? >> well, absolutely. the president green lighted turkey into syria. he cleared the way so the turkish troops could enter and slaughter, annihilate the kurds. it's the most massive, most horrific double cross perhaps in the recent history of the presidency. and the president is now panicking. i mean, he realizes that there's no constituency that supports this. republicans don't support it, democrats don't support it, nobody in the foreign policy community supports it and the kurds are being annihilated as we speak, isis detainees are fleei fleeing. >> so why did he do it? >> i don't know the answer to that. we have to get to the bottom of the giuliani story. i will say this, the president has been pretty clear from the get-go that he wanted our troops out of syria, but if that were the case, there was a way to do
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it that made a lot more sense than pulling them out with a day's notice. our troops ran for their lives. we are tonight bombing our installations inside syria because we left so quickly, we couldn't get rid of all of our stuff. he didn't have to do it this way, even if this is a policy choice he's wanted to make for a while. >> you saw the reports from a russian journalist who is inside u.s. bases. they were there just a couple of years agriculture and no. now the russians are in there doing stories on how the u.s. lived on the base. crazy, crazy days. thank you for helping us make s some understanding of where we're headed. >> thanks. >> a lot of this plays to big ideas about what our elected leaders are supposed to be about. there is something interesting that a number of republicans signed on to rebuke this president for abandoning kurds as our allies. but not all of them.
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not the co-chair of the problems solver caucus. why not? congressman reid is here to make the case next. the new $3 little john from jimmy john's
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all right. there's bipartisan backlash against this president and specifically his decision to withdraw troops from syria. there was a big vote today. a house vote overwhelmingly condemned the president's move,
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354-60. we tonight see that kind of bipartisanship these days. it shows you what a stark issue this is. less than a third of republicans stuck by trump on this issue. and i don't get why any of them did. one of them is congressman tom reed of new york. he's part of the co chair of the problem solvers caucus. the question is dozen today's vote show more of a problem ducking disposition. congressman, i appreciate you coming on to make the case. >> it's good to be with you. >> the concern is obvious, congressman, if you don't vote the way your colleagues did today, you are saying it was okay to abandon our allies. is that the message you want to send in. >> the message i'm sending is congress needs to do its job. congress has been playing fast and loose with authorizing our men and women to be put in harm's way. when obama came to us and asked for our approval for putting boots on the ground in syria, i was against that and right now i
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don't know how members of congress in the hypocritical way that they voted today said it's okay to have troops on the ground when they're not authorizing those troops and making the argument that the president didn't have authority to put those troops there on syrian grounds. let congress do its job. >> we use the #doyourdamnjob here. but i don't know that i can give you credit on that because, one, when he bombed in syria, you didn't say not to. i can't find anything about you on that. i get not wanting troops in syria. that's a principled position, i'm not going to attack it. but abandoning your allies is the best way to get troops out of syria? that's what you wanted to see? >> i understand the concern and the impact that it has on our allies and the kurds but at the end of the day, we as congressmen owe an obligation to those men and women who are going to risk their lives. it's not there. there's no authority by congress
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to do this and we act stronger, chris, when congress backs our troops up by going on the record and nobody wants to take that vote because that's politically -- >> that's what they said this vote was. the men and women on the ground, you've seen the stories about how betrayed they feel. i'm not talking about kurds, i'm talking about the americans. this is a chance for you in congress to say, hey, mr. president, i don't know what's going through your head but this isn't the way america basis. you sent the opposite message. >> i owe my primary duty to our men and women in our military. if we're going to send them into harm health insurance w harm's way, we better in congress be on the record supporting that decision in congress. what they did today was duck that responsibility. when this question comes about redeploying troops to syria, are they going to say president trump had the authority to do it? no. those folks will say at that point in time, no, president, you don't have authority to do
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it when they're condemning him today. >> i hope you're right in the second part of the analysis. my criticism is you let this president and presidents before him take your authority. congress is supposed to declare war and you guys won't even negotiate and by the way, republicans stop it. you should go after your own colleagues. but that's not what today was. >> that was the vote today was -- >> no, it was you abandoned the kurds. >> no, i went to my colleagues you have not done your jobs. there's no authority to have these men and women on the ground. i reaffirmed that position today. if we're going to do this, give me a clear mission, authority in congress and congress do its job and we send the message to all our allies congress is backing up our commander in chief. >> have you said to this commander in chief i want you to understand what bhie vote is today, i don't believe we should be in syria but what you did
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with the kurds was cowardly and wrong and unamerican and now we look terrible and we don't have any guarantee of allies to fight against isis, who you just enhanced. >> chris, i guess you approve of men and women being in syria under our military banner and doing that without congressional authority. that's my fundamental objection. >> i've been asking you guys to do your jobs are you haven't. you didn't speak out against this president when he bombed? syr syria. i don't know what this genuine belief is in terms of consistency. you did a double wrong here. >> i appreciate that judgment but what i will say, when you're bombing, seeking intelligence, thattes differe e that's different than putting men and women boots on the ground. >> true but they're both military first the only time the president can do it himself is imminent plthreat to us and tha bombing didn't qualify. you didn't say anything. >> and i'm going to continue to
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stand. if we're going to go into harm's way, congress needs to do its job. that's the message i said today and that's how i read the resolution. >> i hear what you're arguing, congressman. but why did you argue that you recognized the long relationships that we have with our allies and this president knows who our friends were throughout the world and will stand with them through thick and thin? did he stand with the kurds through thick and thin is this. >> i understand that concern and accept that criticism. this is prioritizing the men and women of the military over the kurds and i stand with the men and women of the military. >> couldn't you have done both? >> we should do both. this political cowardice has to stop. have this vote on the floor of the house and in the senate but for years they've been ducking this question. they're ducking with president obama -- >> i agree with you about all of that on the aumf.
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let me ask you something about cowardice. this group of 60, i can't make it a monolith but just for you personally, congressman reed, if this president has a compelling case made against him of an abuse of power based on what happened in ukraine and maybe otherwise, are you even open to voting for articles of impeachment? >> well, it depends on where we go with this process. but what i see right now i don't see impeachable offenses but i can't predict the future. >> so you're open. >> right now what i see is not an impeachable offense. i don't see this level of transgression that the democrats think that impeachment is worthy of. >> understood but you're open. >> of course. any time you have evidence that's new or a different presentation of the facts, of course you're always open to that. >> congressman, i appreciate you coming on to make the case. you're always welcome to do that, sir. >> chris, it's always good to be with you. i appreciate it. >> does today's syria vote -- why am i asking these questions
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about peeflt? he -- impeachment? why did these 60 men and women stay with the president on something that's so wrong. i'm going to make the argument to you about what today says about what's coming in our future next. i am totally blind. and non-24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. talk to your doctor, and call 844-214-2424. breathe freely fast, with vicks sinex. my congestion's gone. i can breathe again! ahhhh! i can breathe again! ughh! vicks sinex. breathe on. ♪
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mm-hmm. i can't stop this from swinging. must be a draft in here. but he did save a bunch of money bundling our home and auto with progressive. progressive can't protect you from becoming your parents, but we can protect your home and auto when you bundle with us. -hello? -sorry, honey. [ telephone beeps ] butt dial. all right. my hope is that you're seeing what's happening. by all accounts, the kurds are in a desperate struggle after this president gave turkey a green light to start an operation that anyone with a modicum of intelligence had to know would lead to exactly what you're seeing, okay? blood is flowing, and yet here is the reckoning of this president. >> so i view the situation on the turkish border with syria to be for the united states strategically brilliant. >> our view? who does that include because i
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argue to you that how our leaders deal with this obvious bad act by our president is a window into our future. we start with the fact that some of the president's strongest supporters in the senate disagree. >> he will have american blood on his hands if he abandons kurds because isis will come back. and if any american is killed anywhere because of isis, it will fall on trump administration. >> i think it was a mistake, and i hope it's not too late to stop this aggression. >> you're not used to hearing that. that tells you that's how clearly they see this. that takes us to the house and a window into our potential future. by that i mean impeachment. why? because this situation in syria is such clear proof of bad judgment, bad policy, and bad leadership that it serves as a litmus test for whether the right is about principle or
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patronage. 354 representatives voted to approve a resolution opposing the withdrawal from syria. that included 129 republicans. that's a show of force, and it proves that left and right can still be reasonable. but not all could own what should be obvious. 60 members stood with this president, and i argue that evidences a problem. if you're against having troops in syria, fine. but that can't justify abandoning allies who depend on us for their survival, can it? take louisiana congressman ralph abraham. he told the kurdish tv station this a year and a half ago. >> the kurds that are fighting alongside our american troops, they all shed blood with us, and we need to respect that. we need to honor that, and we know who our friends are now. >> he's right. but this president did not honor
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that, and yet abraham showed him the respect of obedience anyway, as did representative john carter from texas, who said this the summer before the election. >> trump will do the right thing by those who stand up for america and the courage who have stood up for the united states of america. >> well, trump won. he was right about that. but then this president did decidedly the wrong thing to the kurds by his own reckoning. yet representative carter supports him despite the president spitting in the kurds' face. >> i'm not going to get involved in a war between turkey and syria, especially when if you look at the kurds -- and, again, i say this with great respect. they're no angels. >> with great respect, this was a bone-headed decision. and who is an angel among us? not me. certainly not our president. but one would think a measure of
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respect would be found for the 11,000 kurdish fighters killed fighting for our interests against isis. but our president is not alone in exercising bad judgment, even surrendering american ideals in this instance. i argue some or many or maybe close to all of these 60 republicans who stood with him, they're no angels either. so will they similarly ignore their oath and reality out of fealty to this president if asked to judge his dealings with his ukrainian counterpart? more importantly, will a significant number of the right in the senate make the same play to this president? will they ignore an obvious case of bad judgment and abuse of office, holding up money to ukraine, back-door dealings to mislead diplomats, the movement
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of information to a secret server, all of which was identified by and stupefied a number of his own people. the question is whether these 60 and, more importantly, gop senators of the same disposition -- will they stay true to their oath or to trump? now, if it's a matter of conviction, fine. all we can ask is integrity. but as with the syria vote, if you turn a blind eye to the facts, showing the same willful blindness it takes to think that turning tail on allies is okay, then this president may have nothing to fear when it comes to removal. but we have a lot to be worried about in terms of the integrity of our leadership. that's my argument. now, here's my question going forward. we're going to show you what's happening to a top republican who has not chosen fealty. why did these 60 do what they did? i'll show you. a campaign is afoot.
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be on the lookout. it's bolo time. today's house vote on syria shows the conviction of some and the craven disposition of others. but fear leading to fealty makes sense with this president. take senator mitt romney. he blasted the president's attempts to get ukraine and china to investigate the bidens. he says they were brazen, those attempts, and appalling. now club for growth, the conservative pro-business lobbying group is running this ad in utah. >> posing as a republican, he tried to infiltrate trump's administration as secretary of state. >> a president like trump is the very man who can lead us to that better future. >> now his cover is blown, exposed by news reports as a democrat's secret asset. >> this to a man who was once
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the republican party's presidential nominee. bolo! other republicans may fear a similar warning shot and stay silent on issues they might actually oppose. be on the lookout. so will we. thank you for watching. "cnn tonight" with d. lemon, the man, starts right now. >> i'm really mad at you. look at how red my eyes are. you know why? because i stayed up late into the night watching you. you guys were great. >> that was not going to be my guess. >> don't even go there. are you kidding me? do you think -- so let's talk about the mitt romney thing. i mean come on. this is a joke. you know why this is happening. because there's concern about impeachment, real concern. i know you reported these numbers. you saw this new gallup poll, right? 52% of americans favor impeaching donald trump and removing him from office. so all of his apologists, him, they're spinning. they're trying to come up with a

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