words are and how powerful it's going to be once the congress gets those. >> david made the point this will be appealed. it will almost certainly be appealed. i have to believe they will see this sooner rather than later. but when you are talking about the constitutional law aspect of it here and the trump appointed judges like to view to the text of the constitution. there is ambiguity here. it seems pretty clear on its face it is a pretty clear decision. congress's power is laid out in the constitution, telling congress that they don't have the authority to do so because of some fabricated notion they don't have a vote is nonsense and not accurate. the law is clear. i would think that right or left leaning judges ought to come out that way. the judge's opinion was ma tick

louse and she goes back to quoting the federalist papers. yes, i do think it ought to be appealed. that's the right legal step to take. it does seem relatively straightforward. >> so, david, there is a temptation here for the democrats and maybe, according to some, a dangerous temptation, which is that if this is upheld, they would have access to the grand jury material from the mueller investigation. that's not the investigation that's happening right now. we're getting the publicity from ukraine here. some people think they should focus on the president pressuring foreign aid for campaign help. >> i don't agree with that argument. and it does seem to me that this ruling today helps us to recall that there is a second potential charge that's going to be made by the house. one is going to be on the ukrainian abuse of power argument. and then the other will be based

on on construction of justice during the mueller proceedings. and, you know, it's important not to -- not to forget the whole question of obstruction, right? you know, two or three months ago we were all saying they have a very strong case on obstruction. so it's well possible that you could have two charges now come out of the impeachment process, and that might strengthen the hands of the administration with regard to the final vote. >> the mueller report laid out ten possible areas of obstruction there. john dean, this republican party, republicans in the house specifically, the ones who illegally stormed the skip earlier this week, i don't know if they will be swayed by the logic of a federal court judge, do you? >> they better not go down and storm the courthouse. they won't have the same result. they won't go home that night. you know, i'm hopeful that there is some action taken in the house to reprimand those members who really broke the rules

blatantly. that is not conduct becoming a member of congress. i can't believe that the speaker is not going to address that at some point and she's not going to tolerate it. >> thank you very much. still to come tonight, john bolton's attorneys are talking with house investigators about a possible deposition. we'll speak with one member of the house oversight committee about the state of the committee and the eulogy of elijah cummings. >> you are not a sucker to have integrity and to treat others with respect. anderson cooper 360 brought to you by alka-seltzer plus, fast cold relief. nothing works faster for powerful cold relief.

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the only direction is forward. you ever wish you weren't a motaur? sure. sometimes i wish i had legs like you. yeah, like a regular person. no. still half bike/half man, just the opposite. oh, so the legs on the bottom and motorcycle on the top? yeah. yeah, i could see that. for those who were born to ride, there's progressive. even as a federal judge tells us the impeachment inquiry

is legal, there is a mystery. one, why president trump ultimately released that military aid to ukraine that he held up for months, which cnn now reports came after a republican senator and the firing of the president's national security adviser. sara murray has done some terrific reporting on this. joins us now with more. what are you learning here? >> we know the president was under a lot of pressure pby the beginning of september to release this hold on funds. one of the last things he did before finally relenting was speaking to the senator from ohio. on this phone call on september 11th, he made the case that if you don't move to release this money now you are going to lose it because the fiscal year is going to end. ukraine is not going to end these funds and it is going to be a big problem. at the end of the call, the president hung up and he ended upturning to his aids and saying, okay, release the money. and this actually came as a

surprise to officials from washington all the way to ukraine because the president had been so adamant for months on sitting on this aid and holding this money, john. >> so if you look at the calendar for september, it is so jam packed with these extraordinary developments. the president released the aid to ukraine the day after he fired john bolton, his national security adviser. so did one have anything to do with the other? >> this is obviously one of the questions investigators are going to be asking, if they can get john bolton in front of them. we don't have a clear answer to that at this point, but we do know that the timing is certainly interesting. we know that throughout this john bolton had been saying ukraine should get the money. he was adamant this money should be released and he was one of the people pressuring the president as well as lawmakers on both sides of the aisle saying what is the hold up here? just release these funds. >> and when we talk about time and this extraordinary calendar, there is an aspect that has

timing with a possible stink, which is that the white house was made aware of the whistleblower complaint before the date of releasing the aid, correct? >> that's right. and for a while it was just lawyers at the white house that knew about this. but in the beginning of september right around this time essentially the same week the president ultimately relented on this, more people at the white house began to learn about this whistleblower complaint, began to learn about the broader concerns around the way the president was dealing with ukraine. now, we don't know if that ultimately played a part in the president's decision to move forward and release these funds, but it's interesting timing and just another indication that at least others in the white house were certainly feeling this pressure, john. >> is there an official version to why the president changed his mind? what did the white house say? >> there are many official versions, john, for this story today the white house decided not to comment. but in the past they pointed to a national security review that the president ordered and said they had to wait for that to be

completed. that doesn't make sense, though. a review like that had already been conducted back in may before the president ever decided to put a hold on these funds. nimick mulvaney went on tv and said the office of management and budget had to conduct a review. but sources told me and my colleagues that actually that review was a pretty cursory poll of all the aid that other countries gave to ukraine and that wasn't the kind of thing that was going to be holding up these funds for weeks. once again, it seems like the decision to release it came squarely down to president trump. >> i think this is an interesting threat. sara murray reporting. thanks so much for being with us. for more, i'm joined by congressman brenda lawrence. thanks so much for being with us. have you and your colleagues been able to determine why president trump decided to release the aid when he did? >> that's why these hearings and inquiries are so important, because the president is challenged with the truth, and

now we have a whole administration doing everything they can to support things that he say that are not true and we are just in this journey of finding the truth. the truth matters, and accountability will come when we get to the truth. >> the white house had been made aware of the whistleblower complaint prior to the releasing of the aid. a coincidence? what have you seen that suggests it may or may not be? >> well, when i sat and listened tod tod taylor's testimony, it was o detailed and so clear of how passionate he was about trying to find out the reason, why is this happening. that's why morrison is going to be very important to this inquiry. what we're doing is like a puzzle. we're putting the pieces together. despite the temper tantrums and the unprofessional behavior that

we saw last week, this week, we are continuing to put the pieces together. and we are on a committed time line. that's why the hearings and inquiries will continue tomorrow, saturday, to do the work. nancy pelosi has been really clear that she does not want this to keep lingering on. and if we can get boden in there to talk, we will hopefully get the last pieces of the puzzle. >> let's talk about john bolton because we understand that your committee is in talks with his people. what is the status of that? and i'm curious, did you reach out to him or did he reach out to you? >> this was a reach out for us because we know that he has information that we need again to close some of the missing parts and to connect. and we are hoping that he will be an honest man under oath and be able to answer the questions. we are -- we have not gotten an

answer. we're working on that. and i'm telling you that it's very clear that the president had an all ti motive and an age was trying to push that had nothing to do with the national security and nothing to do with the checks and balances of awarding the funds that had been appropriated for ukraine. >> you said you hadn't heard back from john bolton's people yet. do you have a sense of which way it's leaning at this point? >> i haven't been in that room to see if there is pushback, but i do know that we are actively engaged and going back and forth. and we need his testimony. and we really want to find a way to bring him forward, and we -- we're very excited about the information we're receiving. i do want to say this because it

keeps being said that, you know, donald trump is painting himself -- our president is painting himself as the victim. this is not about beating up donald trump. this is about checks and balances of our democracy, our republic, our government. this is a clear case of a president sitting in the office with the power and all of the authority that he has misusing that power. our constitution, our government is set up with checks and balances. shame on us as a country if we don't fulfill our requirements. >> it is interesting that you brought up the president painting himself as the victim because today he said something in a speech in south carolina when he was speaking at a historically black college about criminal justice reform and he seemed to make a historical comparison between himself and the experience of african-americans in this country. he said, you know, i have my own experience. you know, there is a terrible

thing going on in our country. it is an investigation in search of a crime. i wonder to the parallel he's seeming to draw here, suggesting he's being treated unfairly the way that african-americans have historically? >> the president made a very insulting comparison recently comparing the process of checks and balances, power that's bestowed upon congress to fulfill as a lynching. i'm sure that the president cannot go back and find his forefathers where a rope was put around his neck and he was hung from a tree. he continues to use this analogy that he's a victim. and to be insensitive to the fact that -- to use that term and then to stand in a black college and to talk about he too has been a victim, it's interesting. if you're innocent, then go through the process and prove

your innocence. >> congressman lawrence, thank you so much for being with us tonight. >> thank you. >> all right. so should the ukraine whistleblower testify before congress as the impeachment investigation ramps up, just ahead, i'm going to speak to one of america's most storied whistleblowers to get his take. every day can begin with flakes. it's a reminder of your struggles with psoriasis. but what if your psoriasis symptoms didn't follow you around? that's why there's ilumya. with just 2 doses, a majority of people were clear or almost clear. and over time, even more people were clear or almost clear. all with dosing 4 times a year... after 2 initial doses. plus, ilumya was shown to have similar risks of infections compared to placebo. don't use if you are allergic to ilumya or any of its ingredients. before starting treatment, your doctor should check for tuberculosis and infections.

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call, click, or visit a store today. lawyering for the whistleblower triggered the impeachment investigation say there is no need for their client to testify in person or even in secret. whiting in an op ed for the

washington post they say protecting the identity of the whistleblower is paramount and there is no information to deliver about that phone call that president trump made to the ukrainian president. exposing the identity would do nothing to undercut the validity of the complaint's allegation. what it would do is put that individual and their family at risk of harm. some perspective now from one of this country's legendary whistleblowers, who leaked the pentagon papers sparking a landmark supreme court decision that allowed the papers to become public. dan, the whistleblower's attorney says the person's identity is no longer relevant. what do you make of that argument? >> it makes sense. what they have revealed, what she has revealed or he, is what's at stake now and there seems to be a lot of corroborating evidence for that now, so it is not the person, it is the information and that seems to be out now.

it is not the person. it is the information. that information is out now, you say. so does this person, in your mind, even if the identity is kept secret need to testify? >> president trump has put a bulls eye on the back of that person by calling them a traitor, a spy and almost calling on his vigilante constituency to take care of this troublesome person for him. so i think that every effort should be made to keep that person's identity secret for their own safety, which i think is very much at stake. i hope that she or he will not have to testify. on the other hand, having gone this far, i have a feeling they're courageous enough to do it if it's necessary. >> you obviously had a much different situation with the pentagon papers. you turned yourself in. you were prosecuted. it's entirely possible that this whistleblower is thinking, hey, i don't want to go anything close to what you went through.

should they be thinking that? >> they're using whoever it is is using a path that didn't exist in my time for whistleblower protection act. but had they stuck entirely to that, the act wasn't going to work as planned. the president and specifically the inspector general turned to the cia inspector general turned to the white house and they were managing to bottle it up, to keep it locked up in effect. had it not been for other people doing unauthorized exposures or leaks, the congress wouldn't have known this complaint existed. in terms of other analogies, my wife used to worry that i was in physical danger under president nixon. i wasn't. i had worked in vietnam. i knew that people who embarrassed the u.s. government were in danger there, but i didn't think it was a problem for u.s. citizens like me.

i was wrong. she was right. on may 3rd, 1972, a dozen cia assets came up from miami with orders to incap tate me totally. and those orders came out of the white house. so they didn't do it because they felt they were being set up as patsies. but that's why i say that this whistleblower's safety is a problem, is being in danger just as it was then. >> you have an interesting take about one of the arguments being made about this whistleblower, that they don't have any first-hand knowledge of the infractions that allegedly took place. based on your experience, is that a credible argument to make against a whistleblower? >> that's an absurd statement. it doesn't have any legal bearing, moral bearing, ethical, anything else. i had a lot of firsthand knowledge in vietnam. i saw that war up close and

personal. and i had knowledge firsthand knowledge in the white house that the president, lyndon johnson, was violating his oath of office by lying and sending us to a wrongful war and i was violating my oath along with him by keeping my mouth shut about that. but most of what i put out of the 7,000 top secret pages were not my firsthand knowledge. it was documentary evidence. and that wasn't the last word either. but it was good information. it had nothing to do with firsthand knowledge. the point is that there has to be an examination of that evidence as to whether the president has, in fact, violated their oath of office. and i would say that every person who listened in on that phone call and heard the president committing a crime with 12 persons listening in and every one of them who kept their mouths shut about that who ordered that information locked up was violating their oath of office and is impeachable as a

result. that applies to secretary of state mike pompeo to start with. >> we thank you very much for your time. >> thank you. up next, the trump hotel in washington, d.c. is a favorite spot for foreign leaders and associates of the president. but now the trump family may be willing to sell its lease. the reason ahead. it's either the assurance of a 165-point certification process. or it isn't. it's either testing an array of advanced safety systems. or it isn't. it's either the peace of mind of a standard unlimited mileage warranty. or it isn't. for those who never settle, it's either mercedes-benz certified pre-owned. or it isn't. the mercedes-benz certified pre-owned sales event. now through october 31st. only at your authorized mercedes-benz dealer. ♪ ♪ everything your trip needs,

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trump family is considering the selling the lease of its controversial washington d.c. hotel. it is a favorite location for foreign leaders and associates. this has led to several lawsuits. the president has reported earning $80 million in revenue from the hotel while in office, but now the trump organization might unload it. the reason, eric trump claims, quote, people are objecting to us making so much money on the hotel and therefore we may be willing to sell. joining me now for his take on this is richard painter, a former white house ethics lawyer under george w. bush. richard has been affiliated with the campaign legal center that frequently criticizes the trump administration and he's involved in the pending emoluments lawsuit. you say the trump family selling the hotel could pose the very

same type of ethical issues that owning it does. explain that. >> well, first of all, who is he going to sell it to? putin? is he going to sell it to the koch brothers? we don't know who is going to buy the hotel and how much they will pay for it. but if this hotel is sold to anybody using foreign government money, that would be a violation of the emoluments clause. this it is sold to anybody for more than its fair market value, that will be a gratuitous transfer to donald trump. that could go into his campaign that involves campaign finance laws as well as the possibility of a quid pro quo. we need to know who they will sell it to and for how much. that should have been done in 2016 when he won the election. i got to say this is not a right wing or a left wing issue. when i was with citizens for

responsible ethics in washington, the second circuit of appeals upheld our lawsuits and are standing to sue the plaintiffs who were co-plaintiffs in that suit. there are two other emoluments cases because of foreign government money. this hotel should have been sold in 2016 along with the rest of the trump business empire. we wouldn't have these problems. >> selling it to whom and for how much, why are those issues so important? >> well, the person buying the hotel uses any foreign government money, right then and there, emoluments violation, it can't be done. if it is private money, is someone going to come in there and pay too much for that hotel to give a gift to donald trump? if that money is plowed into the trump re-election campaign, we have a campaign finance issue because we do have limits and campaign contributions.

even if not, there is the question of a quid pro quo. is somebody going to buy that hotel, to take it off donald trump's hands and expect something in return from the united states government? we already have a man who wants to rents a house to jared and ivanka. he bought a $10 million house and rents it to jared and ivanka. everybody is going into real estate deals with the trumps who want something out of the united states government. >> you have listed several possible ethical concerns about selling it. you still, though, think that's better than continuing to operate it, correct? >> well, that certainly has violated the emoluments clause every single day it's open. so president trump needs to do something. he should have sold it three years ago. but if he can find a buyer who is going to pay a fair price who doesn't want something from the united states government in return, all right, let's see him

do it. but if he sells it to somebody who wants a quid pro quo, who is trying to destroy the environment, who wants a defense contract or whatever it is, that's going to create more controversy. but donald trump is in a lot of trouble that has nothing to do with that hotel. and it looks like he may get impeached. that's part of what's going on here. i think he just wants to minimize the controversy as best he can. >> we'll see. we'll see what happens there. that is playing out on its own course. but there are people who are speculating that what the trump family is doing is perhaps hedging against the possibility of maybe an electoral defeat because the theory is that the hotel won't be worth as much if donald trump isn't president. do you see something like that as being possible? >> i think that's very possible. it won't be worth as much if mike pence is president for the last year of donald trump's term. that's looking increasingly likely given the fact there is a

lot of nervousness among republicans in the senate about what's going on. and i wouldn't be surprised if a number of them told him at least get rid of the hotel and clean up your act because this is turning out to be a very bad situation for donald trump and anybody who supports him. >> well, we will see. so far it seems like they're a long way to getting the 20 republican votes they would need. we'll see. that's a ways away. but richard, i appreciate you coming on and helping us understand what's going on tonight. thank you, sir. >> thank you. so president obama was one of the speakers today at the funeral of elijah cummings. up next, was he also delivering a message to president trump?

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you know, it's been some time since we heard former president obama speak in public. today he was one of many yuwho spoke at congressman elijah cummings. so listen to some of the words

president obama spoke. we will play an excerpt. and decide for yourself if you think he's directed his comments at anyone in particular. >> there is something about daughters and their father. [ applause ] >> and i was thinking i'd want my daughters to know how much i loved them, but i'd also want them to know that being a strong man includes being kind. [ applause ] >> that there is nothing weak about kindness and compassion. there is nothing weak about looking out for others. there is nothing -- there is nothing weak about being honorable. you're not a sucker to have

integrity and to treat others with respect. i was sitting here, and i was just noticing the honorable elijah e. cummings. and, you know, this is a title that we confer on all kinds of people who get elected to public office. [ applause ] we're supposed to introduce them as "honorable." but elijah cummings was honorable before he was elected to office.

there's the difference. [ applause ] there's a difference if you were honorable and treated others honorably outside the limelight. >> joining me now, former speechwriter for president obama, david litt. author of, thanks, obama, my hopy changy white house years. thanks for being with us. to the people who listened to president obama's speech today and heard beyond the really lovely praise for congressman elijah cummings, some people did hear an indictment of president trump. what do you say to those people? >> well, john, thank you for having me tonight. and i have to say i don't work for president obama anymore, but i can pretty much guarantee you he was not thinking about president trump while writing a eulogy. that said, we have reached a really strange point in american life where if you say nice

things about someone, if you say someone has integrity or they're honest or they're honorable or they're not a racist or they're respectful to weomen, people sa, whoa, you're attacking the president. and that says something pretty remarkable about our president and about where we are as a country right now. >> when he says that being nice doesn't make you a sucker or when he goes on the riff about the meaning of "honorable," you don't think in any way that was meant as some kind of a comparison? >> i think that we're at a moment when there are a lot of people who are not living up to their responsibilities. i would point out -- this is my own opinion -- that it's not just trump, right? when you talk about people who are not acting honorably, think about the number of people in this country, the number of republicans in congress who right now are willing to risk their careers in order to make sure that donald trump, the worst role model you could imagine for your kids, remains the president of the united states. so this question of honor, this question of what is our legacy going to be, who are we as a

country, questions that are bigger than politics -- those are questions that i think president obama has always addressed in his speeches and absolutely did today. >> what's the process like, and specifically i mean in reference to these words and things that i was just talking about there, when president obama is coming up with that or in the speechwriting process? do you think he at least knows that some in the audience will perceive it to a comparison or a reference even if he may not mean it as such? >> here's what i would say about all of the speeches that we worked on for president obama. in my experience, the big question -- he was always pushing us to ask bigger questions, questions that transcended politics. and the big question is, who are we as a country? and i think that question, if you can write a eulogy that identifies what makes someone special but that also identifies what makes us special, then i think as a speechwriter or as a speech giver, then you've done a

very good job. i think when you look at a speech like this one or some of the speeches around senator mccain's funeral, they are about who we are as americans because we were celebrating the life of a great american. >> because this was a time where we heard from president obama where he's not heard from so often, once again we heard voices of supporters of president obama saying, we want more of this going forward. we need more of this, they say, this next year, which is an election year. what reasonably do you expect to hear from president obama over the next 12 or 13 months? >> well, honestly i don't know. i'm writing books these days. my colleagues are my two cats. i work from home. so i'm not so plugged in. but what i would say is just as a supporter of president obama's and as someone who misses that, it's a remarkable thing. you alluded to this as ah introduced the clip, thinking about what it was like when a president used to take their words seriously, and not as a writer, but just as a listen and audience member, that was certainly nice to hear. >> we want to thank you and your

two cats. >> thank you very much. up next, president trump's tv lawyer, rudy giuliani, apparently accidentally called a tv reporter and left voicemails that are raising a lot of questions. what he said on one call and what he's saying about it now when "360" continues. as a financial advisor you have to listen. you listen to your client's goal of sending her daughter to the music school of her dreams. and you help her turn it into reality. principal. we can help you plan for that. start today at principal.com.

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voicemail is helpful somehow because it shows, quote, that i don't do anything dishonest, he claims. he also told dana what he was discussing is not related to ukraine or president trump, but he declined to get into specifics. one final note to keep in mind here. rudy giuliani was named then president-elect trump's informal adviser on, you guessed it, cybersecurity back in january 2017, which somehow seems a fitting end to the week for us. but not for cnn because the special report "on the brink: when a president faces impeachment" starts now. >> announcer: the following is a cnn special report. have you got an extra camera in case the lights go out? >> this is what impeachment looks like. >> ollie, on