this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. today on the show, general david petraeus. he led the cia and central command. now he talks to me about the death of al baghdadi, the future of terrorism and tensions in the middle east. also the house's impeachment inquiry into president trump is now formal and moving forward. let's remember how it all began,

a whistleblower. is that unamerican or a supreme act of patriotism? then most of the hong kong protestors are young. but i will introduce you to a 70-year-old protestor who is also a multi-millionaire media tycoon. state media calls him a traitor. i will talk to him about why he sides with the rebels. but first here's my take. the death of abu bakr al baghdadi is a real victory in the war against terrorists. if al baghdadi represents a separation from the mideast,

things could spiral down there. they realized one seminal fact. the region was almost unique in having made no significant political, economic or social progress in decades. across the globe, communist regimes had collapsed, military hunters had disappeared and economic growth had transformed developing countries. but in the middle east, time had stood still, even moved backwards on some measures. this stagnation, many believed, was the atmosphere in which islamism and terrorism were able to grow and spread. in 20002, there was a report mae of political rights and social progress in much of the arab world. in following years, gains were made in several areas like life expectancy, literacy, female empowerment. but as the most recent human

development report points out, since 2010, nearly all arab countries have slowed or reversed their annual average human development advances. this despite the fact that the arab spring protests in 2011 highlighted the needs for greater reforms. why has this happened? partly because the arab spring was a failure. egypt saw the return of repressive rule, syria experienced a civil war, libya has been torn apart and yemen faces the worst world humanitarian crisis. but even with these breakdowns, the region continues to face daunting challenges. the demographics remain grim. the middle east has the highest youth unemployment in the world. the economic model remains highly inefficient, expensive and unsustainable with governments employing a huge number of people and providing massive subsidies for food and

energy. the hope behind the un's 2002 report were that economic and social reforms would be easier if these countries opened themselves politically. political openness would make way for leaders that would drain the way for realism. there was some serious thinking about the region. but little of it worked. political openness led to violence, civil wars and brutal crackdowns. perhaps the most important result of the turmoil in the arab world were americans would withdraw from the region. starting from the second term of the bush administration through barack obama's presidency and now into donald trump's, america has gotten fed up with the middle east. when trump says he wants to end the wars, a large amount of public agree.

so we see a middle east with regional powers jockeying for influence, mainly saudi arabia and iran with others like turkey and israel pushing their own interests. these are uncharted waters in a time of great upheaval. the islamic state has been decapitated and is scattered for now, but the demons of depression and despair continue to haunt today's arab world. for more go to cnn.com/fareed and read my column this week. and let's get started. ♪ last saturday cornered in a tunnel by u.s. special forces, the isis leader abu bakr al baghdadi blew himself up by detonating a suicide vest. in an address to the nation the next morning, president trump announced that the world's number one terrorist was dead.

for more on the death of al baghdadi and what it means for the future of terrorism, i'm joined by general david petraeus. he was the commander of sent-com and leader of the cia. david, good to have you on. >> good to be here, fareed. thanks. >> tell me what you think this means for the future of isis. i ask because you destroyed al qaeda in iraq, and of course it came back in the form of isis when american troops left. when you look at the situation today with isis, decapitated, it's lost its territory, sources of revenue, a fighter scattered in the fields. how likely or unlikely is it that something like isis could reconstitute itself? >> there are still some 20 or so thousand islamic states fighters in that broad area, keeping in mind the caliphate was the size of indiana.

certainly the leader that led the islamic state to that achievement, which is something beyond even what osama bin laden was able to accomplish with al qaeda, that leader, abu bakr al baghda baghdadi, is gone, having suffered a series of reverses one after another, some of his successors killed as well, although one has been announced. a question of how capable that individual will be, how much of the organizational structure is left so that he can reassemble, try to get the islamic state back to some form of insurgency and terrorist groups, which, indeed, some of the elements there are in the process of doing. then the question is how decentralized will the organization be, because it has affiliates all around the world at this point in time. in each case where you find these affiliates have been established is a very significant amount of

discontent, again, often alienation, grievances, and that is what has enabled extremist groups to establish themselves, to take advantage of ungoverned situations in the muslim world, and in some cases, even inadequately governed spaces. so there is a lot riding on what happens now in syria, especially as we're now reintroducing troops, having suddenly pulled them out a couple weeks ago. that will enable us to salvage some of what i think we achieved, many hard years and over 10,000 syrian-kurd partners killed in the process of defeating the cdefeat ing them as an army and taking over the caliphate. basic service restoration, reconstruction of the war damage, all of that. >> what did you make of the

president's announcement of the death of -- the killing of al baghdadi? i just wonder as a cia director, as a former commander, what was at the heart of the details he revealed? >> this is consistent with what we've seen from the president. he enjoys impromptu press conferences, so you have the initial announcement similar to what president obama did in the wake of the killing of osama bin laden back in 2011. in this case, of course, the announcement was followed by a press conference. i'm sure there were individuals in the pentagon or elsewhere, perhaps, in the white house thinking to themselves, drop the mic, mr. president. but, again, this is customary, and i don't think at the end of the day that there were any truly big revelations that came out of that. and, indeed, the pentagon and the white house have actually

declassified some additional details. >> as somebody who had to make alliances with locals in the way that the united states did with the syrian kurds, how bad do you think it was to betray them as we just did? >> well, i think this is very serious. in fact, i agreed very strongly with majority leader mcconnell's assessment that this was a grave strategic mistake, withdrawing u.s. forces, and of course doing it in such a sudden fashion without any clear plan, without having notified our other coalition partners, france and the u.k., without a conversation with the syrian kurds, again, just literally throwing everything that's sensitive on vehicles and so forth, and then withdrawing rapidly and bombing our bases once we're out of there to deny what might be left to the syrians or russians or

iranians to whom we gave a degree of victory in this case. certainly abandoning those who took over 10,000 losses in the course of defeating the islamic state and eliminating the caliphate. that's quite a serious blow, and i think we're going to have to work hard to reestablish our credibility, not just there and not just within, but really around the world. when these actions take place, if you have a red line that doesn't turn out to be a red line, if your rhetoric gets out ahead of what you're actually willing to do, over time that obviously undermines your credibility. and that's a very serious issue. because if you think about deterrence, if you're trying to deter adversarieadversaries, des a function of an adversary's perception not just of your capabilities but also of your willingness to use those capabilities. so, again, this undermines that, it undermines confidence in the united states. stay with us. when we come back, i will ask

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30 grams of protein, and one gram of sugar. ensure max protein. and we are back with general david petraeus, the former commander and cia director. general, what do you make of president trump's focus on the oil that is in syria and talking about how the united states, we are going to keep the oil in

some way. there are people who have said that's not only a violation of international law, it may even be a war crime. what's your reaction? >> well, there has always been a certain affinity the president has had for oil resources. you'll recall previously he said we should have kept the oil in iraq and so forth. frankly, i think that those who were contributing to the policy decision here were probably just happy to have any argument that would enable keeping forces in northeastern syria, supporting our syrian kurd partners and others on the ground, being able to see to the needs of what now are already hundreds of thousands of refugees, the families of those syrian kurds who have been displaced from the border by the turkish buffer zone that's been created. >> but does that mean you think

that the united states should keep the oil in syria? >> well, no, i don't think long term. i think -- we are not even going to keep it now. what we are going to do is enable our syrian kurd partners to retain it. that is what's been going on and this will allow the status quo to continue and to thereby deny the revenue forrom that, eithero resurge in the islamic state in which the syrian kurds would lose a very important bargaining chip. >> when you look at the situation in syria, the president says, look, we don't need to be in all these places. we've been there for too long. and in a sense, the al baghdadi raid, presumably he would regard that as a success of a kind of counterterrorism policy that

says we can use special forces to go in, beat up the bad guys, but we don't have to be in there providing order and such. what do you think of that argument? >> well, i think among the many lessons that we've learned in the era of the post-9/11, you can't fight them just with special operations. you do need to do delta raids and so forth and to support partners on the ground, but that's not enough. that can achieve a security improvement, but what solidifies that security foundation is all the other activities that are necessary, the restoration of basic services, the reestablishment of grievance mechanisms, markets, schools, health clinics, all of this. now, that's not an argument we

should do all of that, in fact, i think what we have been able to achieve in iraq starting with the previous administration and building on it quite effectively in this administration is the ability to defeat a very significant element, the islamic state, but to do it with host nation forces doing the fighting on the front lines. we have seen what happens if you withdraw from these locations before you're absolutely certain that the conditions will allow that. as my great partner and rock pastor ben used to say, you can leave the movie theater but the movie continues to run. >> you've talked about this az long marathon, this war against islamic extremism, and they don't want to be part of it. they just feel as though this is getting us into other people's wars, other people's civil wars, other people's feuds.

the president, i think, reflects that sense of frustration and weariness. >> certainly. uh-huh. >> what's your answer to that? >> few people understand more -- well, i think few people understand more than those who have actually been part of these wars, that have been soldiering in them the desire to end endless wars and end our involvement in them. but what we have seen is that if we end our involvement prematurely, then we are going to end up being back in there, and it may be with a larger force than would have been necessary had we just maintained stability. let's keep in mind, in syria, we were down to somewhere under 1500 forces in the northeast and also at that other location, the keyboard era cross iraq and syria called al-tanf. that is a very modest commitment. yes, special forces which are high demand, lower density, are

part of that, but i think we have reduced so substantially what it is that we're doing that this is actually sustainable, and of course it takes place in a context. i am keenly aware that we have to shift focus to recognize the return of great power rivalries, to focus on the resurgent russia, the rise of china, hoping that we can have mutually beneficial relationships, but knowing that we need to have the capabilities to deter any would-be adventurism from either camp. this is, i think, the best camp. keep in mind we had 65,000 american men and women on the ground during the surge, 100,000 during the surge in afghanistan plus another 150,000 coalition forces. in afghanistan now, the u.s. component is less than 8500, and

nye rack it's under 5,000 or so as well. continue to reduce it, continue to reduce the cost in blood and treasure, but recognize, regrettably that we do have to sustain our involvement in these places. >> david petraeus, good to have you on, as always. >> thank you, fareed. the impeachment inquiry started because of a complaint by a whistleblower. when we come back, we'll tell you about the history of whistleblowers. ♪

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oxford defines a whistleblower as a person who informs on a person or organization regarded as engaging in an unlawful or immoral activity. the whistleblower filed on

august 12 with the inspector general of the intelligence community. two books have been published in recent weeks about whistleblowers. i'm lucky enough today to be joined by the thaauthors of bot books. allison stang's new book is called "whistleblowers." and "crisis of conscience." allison, let me start out with you. you claim that whistleblowing is as old as the public. >> the world's first was passed in congress in 1778. that was before the ratification of the constitution, and it was passed because of a man by the name of essex hopkins. hopkins was chief of the navy,

and he was removed from office for abusing his office for public gain. he was taking the u.s. navy other places, not the places general washington wanted him to engage the british, and instead of going to chesapeake bay, he would go, for example, to the bahamas, and this served his commercial interests, but it certainly didn't serve the war effort and it certainly didn't serve the cause of the newly united states. so it was certainly about the power and corruption in public servants. >> tom, you point out that these whistleblowers are often acting in circumstances that they know they could pay a very heavy price. they're facing a lot of pressure not to blow the whistle. you have this incredible case in pennsylvania around pharmaceuticals. explain that story. >> right, ellen jones was an inspector in the inspector general's office in the state of pennsylvania, and his job was to

inspect potential corporate fraud. and he discovered a multi-billion-dollar fraud scheme by johnson & johnson and other pharmaceutical companies and was promptly forced by his own department, his own government office, to back off because they were too politically -- according to his bosses, too politically connected. so he then had to file a whistleblower suit, not only first amendment whistleblower suit against his own office but then take on the pharmaceutical companies in a false claims act case. so very complicated. but in both cases, this individual had to take his career in his hands in order to do the right thing. the system itself was not self-correcting. >> huh. allison, you point out in some cases the most famous whistleblower is danny ell sdelg

who released the pentagon papers. but after 9/11, there was so much that came out of 9/11, the patriot papers and such, and it for a while stopped whistleblowing. >> yes, the whistleblower enhancement act protects all employers from retaliation with the exception of national security whistleblowers. so anything involving national security, which you know well involves keeping secrets, will require the whistleblower to break the law, to reveal secrets in order to maintain the rule of some higher principle. that applies to snowden and that applies to the current whistleblower. it's really a miracle in my view that this complaint has even seen the light of day. everything is stacked against it because the intelligence community doesn't leak. they're trained to keep secrets. they're trained to serve their country, not a particular party. they've been essentially blowing the whistle on donald trump

since he assumed office, in my view, for legitimate reasons. >> tom, you also think this current whistleblower is actually -- or the whistleblowing that's taking place is done fairly shrewdly given the constraints they have to operate in. >> that's right, i think they understand this is a body of whistleblowers, not just one, and the smart thing to do is to gradually trickle out information, not give it in a body to be attacked together, but allow trump and his allies to shoot, basically, all of their ammunition at the first two and then simply have nothing to answer to the others or have the others rebut. that said, if the president of the united states suggests that you might be someone who needed to be rubbed out, that's never good. >> allison, finally, there are

people, the president and others, who block out the patriotism of these whistleblowers. there's something unamerican about it. what do you think about that? >> there couldn't be anything more american. they keep our officials honest. it goes back to 1778. it's important to realize that this is an american issue. if you look at the national security, the intelligence community, they're doing something since trump's election that they don't normally do. no previous president has been considered a national security threat by his own intelligence community. and we certainly haven't seen this sort of blatant corruption, the use of the office of the president for private gain, but i think americans know that obviously americans should elect their officials, not foreigners, and that public servants should

serve the american people and not their own pocketbook. so i'm hopeful that in the days ahead, we'll see some clarity on these issues. >> allison stanger, tom mueller, happy to have you on. >> nice to be here, fareed. >> thank you, fareed. what do you get when you mix right wing populism with left wing communists? i'll tell you about this odd recipe when we come back. when you shop with wayfair,

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world" segment. if you're trying to understand the right, in poland the law and justice party just won a second term. law and justice, or beast, as it's known in poland, has all the hallmarks of the new right. they attack liberal values, democratic institutions, they claim to be speaking for ordinary polls. but on the economy, the right wing piece is embracing the left. the biggest policy triumph for its government's last term was the family 500-plus program. it gives families cash handouts of about $130 per child per month regardless of income. the atlantic compared it to a scheme similar to the one andrew yang has been promoting in the united states, universal basic income. cash handouts to families are common in western europe, but this is an unusually large boost

in social spending for eastern europe. and it's widely credited with helping the party win at the polls. now, pro-family programs have a certain resonance in eastern europe where immigration and a falling birth rate have resulted in population declines. but this is bigger than demographics. the law and justice party has in general expanded the welfare state and raised spending on the poor. as "the times" reports, the government cited it would nearly double its minimum wage. it raised pension payments and eliminated taxes for people under 26. kachinsky, the party's leader, said he drew knowledge from others. the german president crippled

the judiciary and the press. but on economics, he's offered young couples interest-free loans. he's exempted women of paying income tax for life if they have four children. he's expanded work for welfare programs. and look further back to his first term in office. after the financial crisis, he did something few dared to do. he bailed out borrowers at the expense of the banks, by offering extremely favorable rates on mortgages and forcing banks to absorb most of the difference. as the political scientist mitchell orenstein told the associated press, they embrace orthod orthodoxy after the fall of the iron curtain. distribution, the theory went, could happen only after privatization and growth. but when the financial crisis hit, that free market orthodoxy

came into question. and it was the right, not the left, which took advantage of the new moment. now, this combination may not be foolproof. his policies didn't save his party from losing the elections in budapest and ten other cities last month, but on the national level, pro poor economics along with nationalism can lead to an election windfall. look at india. that leader has presided over work programs while also promoting his hindu nationalist agenda. in may he won his election handily. it seems the new right has adopted the policies of the old left. next on "gps," it has been severen months sin seven months since the protests began in hong kong.

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the protests in hong kong have now been going on for months. it may be hard to remember at this point, but the issue that sparked the protests was a controversial bill that would have allowed extradition from hong kong to mainland china. last week hong kong's government

finally withdrew the bill altogether. i wanted to bring in a man with a unique perspective on the unrest in that part of the world. jimmy li is a hong kong protestor, but he doesn't fit the bill of the average person on the streets. you see, he's a multimedia millionaire tycoon. after toiling for years in a factory, he started a successful g garment business. jimmy li, welcome to the show. >> thank you, fareed. >> let me ask you where you think things are now. the protests continue. they have not cracked down, have not sent troops in. what is the game plan, do you think, from the point of view of beijing? >> i'm sure that beijing is very

cautious in sending in troops just because china is now facing economic problems that they never did before. if you take just agricultural production, the productivity is hurt because of the pollution in their environment. half the drinking water is not drinkable. more than 60% of the water for irrigation is toxic. you can see that. >> they're facing problems at home and they don't want to take on -- >> exactly, and also they're facing the trade war with the u.s. they're having an inflation in agricultural product. so they're facing big problems. if she send p.o.a. in, they risk world ascension. at this time, i don't think they

would risk that. >> but they seem to be also banking on wearing out the hong kong protestors, but the protests keep going. what do you think? are people getting tired? are businessmen in hong kong saying, enough. we need to get back to work. >> well, yes. enough for the businesspeople, but it's not for hong kong people. hong kong people, what is enough is when we get to the point of suffrage. because this is the only assurance that our freedom, rule of law, the way of life, human rights, all that will not be constantly encroached by china. and after four and a half months resistance, we know for sure this is a fight of the last straw. we have to persist. and hong kong people have never been that united and determined. >> so you think that nothing

less than universal suffrage will end this? >> yes. yes. >> a lot of people look at hong kong and say, these are a lot of people who care about money. the city runs on money. this seems all about politics. >> well, yes, hong kong people -- especially young people, life is not easy. the prices are really very high because just a lot of rich people in china come to hong kong to buy real estate. to stay in hong kong, they want the value of freedom, and they don't think we need the value of freedom. they just take the whole thing as an economic problem. no, it's not. of the five demands, none of them is about economic. it's about freedom. it's about human dignity. it's about hong kong people keeping the way of life that we

used to. >> let me ask you a personal question. you're a very rich man. you have a very comfortable life. you could very easily go on -- this is hurting your business, beijing has started embargoing it, you're losing ads. why are you doing this? >> if there is no freedom, what good is money? i think you have to live a life of meaning, and i found taking responsibility to fight for freedom is meaningful for me, personally. >> do you want this to be your legacy? >> i'm not thinking about legacy, i'm just thinking that doing the right thing and not thinking about the consequences. >> jimmy lai, pleasure to have you on, sir. >> thank you. and we will be right back.

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and american politicians aren't the only ones gearing up. already hackers and trolls from around the world are seeking to interfere in the 2020 election. last week facebook announced that it had shut down networks of coordinated inauthentic behavior, targeting american voters and social media users in africa and latin america. it brings me to my question. from which nation did the majority of the disinformation campaign networks removed by facebook last week originate? was it russia, china, iran or north korea? stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. my book of the week is actually a tv show. hbo's "succession." this mini series is a fictionalized version of the life of rupert murdoch and his family. somehow without a single sympathetic character in the entire cast, the creators have managed to make it compelling. it is michavielli on tv.

the answer to my question is c, iran. according fto facebook, the ey iranian trolls masqueraded as locals trying to manipulate everything from black lives matter to israeli settlements. but if you look at russia, they were responsible for that fourth network shut down by the social media giant last week. facebook warned that the russia campaign had the hallmarks of an operation using sophisticated security tactics. they racked up a quarter of a million followers across 50 instagram accounts. they warned that russia is

doubling down on its cyber capabilities and its ability to conceal what it is doing. investigators revealed a complicated plot where hackers broke into a site called oil rig. hiding within the infrastructure, the russians could explore the hacked data and even deliver malware across unsuspecting victims in 35 countries, all while masquerading as original iranian hackers. so whether inside a feed or social media, russia can hack across america. thank you for joining us. i'll see you next week. it's a journey. we're constantly asking ourselves, 'how can we do things better and better?'

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oh yeah - it's back. crispy shrimp... ...tossed in a spicy rub... ...and drizzled with sweet amber honey. more shrimp more ways. endless shrimp's just fifteen ninety nine. hurry in. i'm brian stelter and welcome to "reliable sources." we're talking about how the media really works, how the news gets mad and how all of it could be better. we start this hour with twitter pros and cons. plus fact checker daniel dale is here talking about the littlest lies or the most revealing. and we have some never-before-seen data about trump's typos. so many typos. let's just say he's never going to win one of those spelling bees. we have a lot coming up this hour, but the most important story is about the enduring toll