hello, and thank you for joining us again this evening. this is cnn special live coverage of the public impeachment proceedings. i'm poppy harlow. >> and i'm jim sciutto. the day ending with significant testimony from behind closed doors. cnn obtained the opening statement from the official who overheard a phone call between president trump and his ambassador to the eu. david holmes told lawmakers he personally heard trump demand an investigation of the bidens. and said that president trump did not give an expletive about ukraine. saying that he only cares about

stuff that benefits the president, such as the biden investigation. >> on wednesday, gordon sondland will have to answer even more questions under oath about that question. because he's set to testify in public. this, as holmes has revealed at least two other people in that restaurant during that phone call heard the comments through the phone. also, the white house released a rough transcript of president trump's first call with the ukrainian president. which did not mention corruption, making the newly released transcript of the call with the white house's readout. so there's a lot from today,

including maria yovanovitch testifying as president trump tweeted about her. >> he said, well, she's going to go through some things. what did you think when president trump told president zelensky, and you read that you were going to go through some things? >> she's going to go through some things. it didn't sound good. it sounded like a threat. >> did you feel threatened? >> i did. >> as we sit here testifying the president is attacking you on twitter. what effect do you think that has on other witnesses' willingness to come forward and expose wrongdoing? >> well, it's very intimidating. >> the testimony of david holmes is raising other questions. he spoke about overhearing a

newly revealed call between gordon sondland and president trump. >> the call took place at a restaurant in kiev in july. sondland saying that zelensky would do anything that president trump asked. >> joining us now to discuss their insights, elena plott, and michael zelden. thanks to all of you. i want to get to a key exchange between president trump and gordon sondland. this gets, in my view, to the root of what the whole ukraine information about. this is david holmes speaking. i asked if the president did not

give an expletive about ukraine. ambassador sondland stated the president only cares about big stuff. i noted there was a war with russia going on in ukraine. ambassador sondland said replied that he meant big stuff that benefits the president, like the biden investigation. was the president putting his own political interests above u.s. national security concerns? >> if this is not the definition of self-dealing, i don't know what is. david holmes is thoughtful and detail- detail-orient detail-oriented. he indicates the president

didn't care about russian aggression in ukraine, he was singularly focused on his own needs. this is a firsthand account from a career foreign service officer. and ambassadors don't typically have a direct line to the president of the united states for many reasons. one of which is that the information is vetted by the secretary of state, by the white house, goes through a sort of process. ambassador sondland was able to just pick up the phone, talk to the president of the united states, and in quite a cavalier way, in an open setting, saying the president is only focused on himself. >> michael, doesn't the argument from the administration, from many republicans, that none of the testimony thus far has been firsthand knowledge, doesn't that go away now? >> it went away when they

released the transcript of the july 25th call, because out of the mouth of the president came the explicit request for the quid pro quo. the second thing, of course, is that sondland will testify to it if he's truthful, and holmes is testi testifying. so you have three people, including the subject of the inquiry, trump, admitting firsthand to what is going on here. >> i want to look at some of this account again from david holmes. it gets to a conversation, he's listening to a conversation between the sitting u.s. president and his ambassador to the eu, and describing how the president of the ukraine views the president, and just the way elena discussed it. while ambassador sondland's phone was not on speakerphone, i could hear the voice of the president, and i heard the

ambassador greet the president, and say he's in kiev. he said that president zelensky loves your ass. so, he's going to try to do the investigation? the ambassador said he's going to do it. adding, he will do anything you ask him to. it's an interesting way to have an ambassador describe a sitting president of a foreign country, how he views the u.s. president. but tell us what this tells us about the relationship, and what was important to the president in this relationship. >> from the beginning of this, republicans have said to me and to you guys on air, as with so many scandals in the trump administration, it's not trump himself who is involved. it's people below him who are doing the dirty work, and he doesn't know about it, and he can keep his hands clean. one of the reasons this opening statement is so devastating for that defense at this point is

because trump is making quite clear that he was very intimate in terms of his demands and pushing this. and he was quite aware of what rudy giuliani was doing, of what those below him are doing. so, yes, the firsthand knowledge defense is crumbling. this idea that i don't know these people, i can't speak to what they were doing, that's falling apart as well. >> just to build on your reporting, you spoke to rudy giuliani especially a lot in the lead-up to that planned trip to vi vienna that was cancelled. is anything more clear to you now as it ties to rudy giuliani, the president, this effort in ukraine? >> today for me highlighted how far back this goes. this is not something that president trump just became aware of at the same time we

were. trump met with parnas as far back as december. this is not something for the president that is unfolding just as it is for the public. it goes deeply with him, and it's going to be interesting to see if gordon sondland affirms that, if he testifies next week. >> if he testifies? >> yes. >> can i just add on this, why it's so dangerous for a diplomat to be saying this to the president of the united states? back in the day, diplomats got the president's support for doing their jobs. sondland got the president's support for telling the president what he wants to hear. but this is what gets the president's favor, and it's very clear that ambassadors who do their jobs like advancing anti-corruption, are removed,

and others who tell the president what he wants to know retain his favor. >> in an open line in a restaurant in kiev where anyone can hear it. and michael, as our legal pro here, the democrats are trying to build a legal case here of the president's involvement, et cetera. he was listening to a phone call, david holmes, from a legal perspective, how important is that kind of evidence? you know, assuming that sondland in his testimony, we don't know that, confirms this description. >> it's direct evidence of a conversation that this individual is able to relay that he heard the president of the united states say that he wanted these investigations conducted before anything would go forward. and the thing that is interesting, in the holmes statement, is that he says by march of 2019, the white house's

political agenda overshadowed u.s. foreign policy interests in addressing endemic corruption in ukraine. so by march, long before the july phone call, the state department representatives in kiev understand that this personal agenda is overshadowing public policy agenda of the state department. i think that's compelling evidence. and the fact that holmes and hopefully sondland will tell the truth, and we'll hear it from the president himself on the july 25th call is a pretty strong statement of liability with respect to abuse of power. >> michael, i think it's worth a moment tonight to ask you, and all our legal minds on the program, if you were representing gordon sondland, which you're not, at this point, given all of this, would you recommend that he take, you know, the oath and testify in public on wednesday? >> so, he has a good lawyer in

bob luskin. he's a friend, and i think highly of him. i think at this point, sondland has no real choice but to testify. i don't think he has a fifth amendment claim about self-incrimination. he has not done anything that is criminal here. he's carried out the personal political agenda of the president of the united states. and i think if he doesn't testify, history will hold him in contempt, and potentially congress will hold him in contempt and move to the u.s. attorney's office to compel his testimony. i think he wants to be forthright and take it on the chin, if he has to, from the president. >> we did see the president disparage a witness during live testimony today. you can imagine if there's some pressure behind the scenes on

gordon sondland, who still serves in his post, by the way. >> we saw the conviction of roger stone, what happens when you lie to congress. >> sure. >> i think he's got no choice but to come forward and be truthful and take whatever political hits the president has to dish out. >> all right. don't go anywhere, please stay with us. we have a lot ahead this hour. ambassador mary yovanovitch talking about what is happening in the region of ukraine. plus, president trump tweeting about yovanovitch, and she said she felt threatened by previous comments. and we're getting a first look at the first call between the president of ukraine and

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during her testimony, marie yovanovitch said she had removed from her post after a campaign of disinformation put forth by rudy giuliani. she said her removal had much bigger implications. >> our ukraine policy has been thrown into disarray. and shady interests, the world over, have learned how little it takes to remove an american ambassador who does not give them what they want. after these events, what foreign official, corrupt or not, could be blamed for wondering whether the u.s. ambassador represents the president's views?

>> our experts are back to us. let's listen to how the time was characterized between ambassador yovanovitch's removal and the arrival of bill taylor. >> during that time on may 20th, ambassador sondland, rick perry, and others came to the inauguration of president zelensky, right? >> yes. >> and during that gap in time, ambassador sondland visited the white house, along with others, and got directions from president trump to talk to rudy. those were his words, talk to rudy, about what to do in ukraine, right? >> that's my understanding. >> isn't it the case that your departure, and the one-month gap between the time when you left and ambassador taylor arrived provided the perfect opportunity

for another group of people to basically take over ukraine policy, isn't that right? >> yeah. >> what do you make of that, and what happened in the three months between the two phone calls in terms of giuliani inserting himself there. >> well, in the testimony, it was why and how. the republicans say the president should be able to recall ambassadors at will. ambassador yovanovitch was recalled with almost no notice. >> at midnight, they were concerned about her security. she said, physical? no, get on the next plane to washington.

>> and there was almost no handoff. typically, they hand off information to their successor so there is no interruption in u.s. foreign policy. and it signals to all the wrong people, all they have to do is get rudy giuliani to talk about it on television, and they can get the ambassador removed. that makes people a target, that will have a long term impact on diplomats going forward. not only for yovanovitch. >> and the reason she was removed, she wasn't playing ball to do things like pursue the ukraine conspiracy, that it was

ukraine and not russia who conspired to interfere in the 2016 election. let's listen. >> i mean, there have been rumors out there about things like that. but, you know, there was nothing hard. at least nothing i was aware of. >> there's nothing based in fact to support the allegations? >> yes. >> and in fact who was responsible for interfering and meddling in the 2016 election? >> well, the u.s. intelligence community has concluded it was russia. >> here's the thing, we know it was russia. but a conspiracy theory that has captured the attention of the u.s. president, who has repeatedly questioned whether russia was behind that interference, has found its way into u.s. policy here. remarkable. >> and it's not entirely

complicated how it happened. i spoke about this with rudy giuliani about two months ago, about how he and others are convinced that maria yovanovitch is a pawn of george soros. and this made its way to very top levels of the state department. so it's not just donald trump is captivated by the conspiracy theori theories, i think at this point you have state department officials who feel it's safer just to acquiesce in the exploration of them rather than push back. there are so few people like don mcgahn who will say no to this president. >> that's because people who say no are shown the door. >> and david holmes, in that behind closed doors testimony that was so important on a number of levels today, also in

his opening statement talked about how officials were raising red flags and alarm signs about giuliani's role. at one point during a preliminary meeting, someone wondered allow about why mr. giuliani was so active in the media with respect to ukraine. my recollection is that ambassador sondland stated, damn it, rudy. every time rudy gets involved he goes and "f"s everything up. even sondland is saying that, michael. >> that's right. and i think that one of the things the ambassador said today, she said, ukrainians who prefer to play by the old, corrupt rules sought to remove me. what continues to amaze me is that they found americans willing to partner with them, and they apparently succeeded in the removal of a u.s.

ambassador. and she asks plaintively, how can our system fail like this? how could it be that foreign, corrupt interests can do this? and it speaks to her as a victim of allegations of abuse of authority by the president. she was not so much a witness today as were kent and taylor wednesday, it was more, i was the victim of this campaign, and this is what happens when people abuse their powers. the priorities of the united states take second seat to the political personal priorities of the president. >> yeah. also it blows up the idea that the president was truly interested in corruption. the reason many ukrainian officials didn't like yovanovitch is that she was pursuing corruption very aggressively there. and it appears they undermined

her, and trump's cronies were willing to swallow it up. coming up, what lawmakers on both sides had to say about trump tweeting about yovanovitch as she testified. and this standing ovation after her testimony. [ applause ] of an outdoor grill, and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do even more, like transform into an air fryer. the ninja foodi grill, the grill that sears, sizzles, and air fry crisps. ♪ do you recall, not long ago ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪

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democrats are accusing the president of witness intimidation. even some republican lawmakers don't like at all what they heard and saw from the president today. as career diplomat maria yovanovitch was testifying, the president attacked her on twitter. writing everywhere she went, it went bad. >> adam schiff read that live during the hearing. and the president was asked about the intention of his tweet. >> i have the right to speak. i have freedom of speech just like other people do. >> with your freedom, were you trying to intimidate ambassador yovanovitch? >> i want total freedom of speech. the republicans have been treated very badly. >> do you think your words could be intimidating? >> i don't think so at all.

>> michael, there were republicans who disagreed with that tweet. i don't think it was right to be harassing or bearing on the professional diplomatic service. was it witness intimidation, michael? >> i don't think so, from a legal standpoint. i think most prosecutors would not want to bring that case. it is more harassing conversation than it is intimidating conversation. and the hard part in bringing a case like this is that the president speaks normally in a very belligerent manner. >> so if you're a bully, you have more of a rope here? >> in some sense, yes, you do.

because the statute says you have to make the statement with specific intent to discourage a person from or somehow interfering with the person from testifying. the president, i don't think, could be proven to have that specific intent, certainly with the ambassador. whether it has that effect for future witnesses remains to be seen. and something that prosecutors would have to keep their eye on. when you're asking the very technical legal question of me, does this statement by the president on his twitter account amount to actionable intimidation against the ambassador, i think i would not bring that charge. >> that's in isolation. the truth is, you have to look at this on a longer line here, don't you? because when she was still serving, the president said to another world leader, she's going to go through some things, right? in an almost mob-like way, right? and of course she did.

and she was removed from her position. i suppose the question is, what is the wider effect on serving diplomats overseas if they, i don't know, provide contrary advice to the president? >> well, michael is a lawyer. but from just a viewer today watching yovanovitch testify, she said that she viewed the president's words as a threat from the july 25th call. and she said today she felt intimidated. she didn't want to put words in the president's mouth, but that is coming from her. and every witness that has come p plied with a subpoena, the president has had a tweet about, and has tried to denigrate. it's not just about yovanovitch, it's about future witnesses. so let's look at the other public servants who have come

forward and testified. if you're gordon sondland and you tell the president you love his you know what, he will be kind to you. but if not, he will -- he doesn't understand what diplomats actually do. >> it was a cheap shot. >> and it was a dangerous shot. because it discourages everybody from speaking truth and upholding the constitution and our system of checks and balances. >> and other witnesses coming forward have to factor into this, knowing that it will come raining down from the president, and many of the right-wing media, you will face that fire if you choose to speak out. >> speaking out, with the media, it was important to hear some of the commentary on fox news, some

of it. you heard chris wallace say if you didn't feel for yovanovitch today, you don't have a pulse. and ken starr calling what the president did extraordinarily poor judgment. >> extraordinarily poor judgment. the president frequently says i follow my instincts. sometimes you need to control your instincts. i think this was quite injurious. >> quite injurious. >> i think what wallace said about how could you not empathize in some way with yovanovitch in that moment, the contrast between the president and the contact of a public servant like yovanovitch was so clearly laid bare in that moment. here you have somebody who has agreed to testify against all the threats we're talking about. it's not just right-wing media

or what the president might tweet. just the whole republican ecosphere at this point. and words that were clearly intended to harass, to intimidate, whatever word you want to use. like it or not, these are public hearings, and they're public because the democrats hope they sway public opinion in some way. they are in some senses performative. and that sort of contrast is probably quite good for democrats in terms of moving public opinion that this president has not indeed acted in the interests of his country throughout all of this. >> may i clarify something? >> yes, michael. >> i don't want to leave the impression that what the president did was acceptable. it was wrong. i was trying to answer the question about whether you would bring the charges as a prosecutor. >> yes.

>> but i think the more actionable conduct of the president is that he has prevented other witnesses from testifying at all. >> yes. >> and that's much more actionable, much more an obstruction of justice than his normal bullying conversation. which is wrong but not necessarily illegal. >> and that's something that there's a pretty decent chance that ends up in an article of impeachment if the democrats go for that step. >> thank you, all of you. president trump made good on his promise to release a first call with the president of ukraine. but it was what was not in the transcript that is raising questions. ♪ ladies and gentlemen for the drive to create a new kind of family car, that became a new kind of race car.

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just moments before the public testimony of ambassador marie yovanovitch began, president trump briefly grabbed the spotlight and the message,

releasing a transcript of he and president-elect zelensky of ukraine. devin nunes read it aloud. >> it's important that i read this into the record so there's no confusion about the phone call that occurred on april 21st. the president, i'd like to congratulate you on a job well done. and congratulations on a fantastic election. zelensky, it's nice to hear from you, and i appreciate the congratulations. the president, that was an incredible election. zelensky, again, thank you so very much. as you can see, we tried very hard to do our best. we had you as a great example.

>> according to the rest of the transcript, the president invites zelensky to the white house, and even brings up his work with the miss universe pageant that he used to own. but there's one big thing missing in the transcript, in it there is not a single mention of any discussion about corruption. why does that matter? the official white house readout of that call distributed to the press at the time of the call says they talked about corruption. >> and that was supposed to be the president's focus in that relationship. >> yeah. so, it's interesting, scott, with the white house responding to where is the talk about corruption, they blamed colonel vindman for that. is this something that strikes

you as important, there was no mention of it? >> well, yeah. i mean, if it was in the readout, and it's not in the transcript, it would help the president if they found the rest of the transcript and it was in there. also there's no mention of him pressuring zelensky for any kind of political favors. and the white house also wanted to put it out to force more conversation about them trying to be transparent about the president's conversations with zelensky. there were good reasons to put it out, but this discrepancy raises some questions, and they had noticed that and the press needs the details now. >> there was a readout based on the talking points the president was supposed to race ise in tha

including corruption. that readout, done and dusted before the actual call took place, and was shared with the president before they updated it, i wonder what this does to the argument that all the president cared about in ukraine was rooting out corruption. >> and that's why they held up aid, yeah. >> people that want to make something out of it will. >> the president and his team have said from the beginning that all he cared about in ukraine was rooting out corruption, and his first call doesn't bring it up. it was in the talking points. >> sure. >> you, a smart guy, does that raise any questions about the president's focus in ukraine? >> if i was in the white house, and i'm not, i would say there are many conversations, and

frankly of all the things that happened today, this will be the least important. because so much else happened during the day and in the afternoon that are much bigger and frankly worse stories for the white house. >> one of the big issues here, this is or was the talking point from the white house and the president, from the president's allies, and the republicans. they wanted to make sure, jim jordan said it, they wanted to make sure this guy, the new president of ukraine was up to snuff. he would root out corruption, that he had the chops for this, before we just hand over more aid. when you read the transcript of the first call, the president is, like, adores him on the phone call. you guys are great, someone high level will come to the inauguration, i can't wait for you to come to the white house. no question of his ability to do this job. >> just on its face, the call was a short and sweet initial

congratulatory call. but the trajectory, we have to look at the whole picture. if anybody is really interested in seeing if zelensky was up to snuff, they could have invested in the ambassadors on the ground in kiev, and relied on the department of defense's benchmarks, to see if zelensky was meeting those benchmarks. and guess what, he was. our diplomats on the ground in ukraine reported that they were meeting corruption benchmarks. that zelensky did pass landmark legislation on corruption. none of that came up on any of the calls, and we have no indication that any of that came up in subsequent meetings the

president had with officials. i agree this is just one part of the puzzle, but it's part of the president not really caring about what zelensky did on the corruption, and really just what matters to him. >> and that was the testimony today, he was more cared about things that mattered to him. thank you for coming on so late. >> we appreciate it. have a really nice weekend. another big aheheadline, ro stone, convicted of federal crimes. the verdict, next. too much! i can rent this? for that price? absolutely. it's just right! book your just right rental at thrifty.com.

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as he political adviser, a long time friend of the president and now a convict felon. >> sarah murray has more on the stunning conclusion to the roger

stone trial. >> a jury in washington agreed with prosecutors that truth still matters. and found roger stone guilty on friday of seven criminal counts. stone, a long time friend and political adviser to president trump was convicted of five counts of lying to congress. one of witness tampering and one of obstructing a criminal proceeding. prosecutors argued that he lied about his contact with trump and other campaign officials with the wikileaks hacks. it would look really bad for his long time associate donald trump. they told the jury, truth still matters. after two days of deliberations, the jury agreed. stone, a veteran republican political operative nope for his flamboyant trial is offered no audible reaction as the verdict was delivered. his wife let out a sigh of relief when the judge announced he could await his sentencing from home rather than behind

bars. it marks the conclusion of one of mueller's highest prosecutions. he was arrested in jab in a pre dawn raid as mueller's team was winding down the investigation. the trial revealed new detail that had been redacted from the mueller report like how eveningter trump campaign was to get dirt from wikileaks in 2016. >> wikileaks. i love wikileaks. and a number of phone call between stone and trump at a time when stone was claiming he had direct contact with julian assange. >> i have actually talked with him. >> trump and stone apparently spoke about the moise. according to testify from former campaign official rick gates earlier this week. trump told mueller's team, i don't recall discussing wikileaks with him. president trump who has weighed

whether to pardon stone in recent months slammed the verdict tweeting, so they now convict roger stone of lying and want to jail him for many years to come. he called stone's conviction a double standard claiming hillary clinton, adam schiff and even robert mueller had lied. stone declined to comment on a possible pardon. >> what is your reaction to the verdict? >> no comment. >> will you be seeking a pardon from president trump. >>? no comment. >> cnn, washington. >> all right. we have a lot more ahead on all the impeachment testimony this week. we'll have all that after a quick break. we've seen a thing. even a- (ernie) lost rubber duckie? (burke) you mean this one? (ernie) rubber duckie! (cookie) what about a broken cookie jar? (burke) again, cookie? (cookie) yeah. me bad. (grover) yoooooow! oh! what about monsters having accidents? i am okay by the way! (burke) depends. did you cause the accident, grover? (grover) cause an accident? maybe... (bert) how do you know all this stuff? (burke) just comes with experience. (all muppets) yup.

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hello. thank you for joining us. this is live coverage of the public impeachment hearings. >> we're so glad you're with us. week one of testimony is in the books and the revelations pretty significant. we'll spend the next hour combing through what we have

learned