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century. the same year articles of impeachment were approved for a committee investigating nixon. i'm michael smerconish. this week's hearings provided drama and next week will deliver more same.roger hodgeson asked a good question, if everyone was listening? axios had interesting viewing date awe that suggests not. day 1's 13.8 live million tv viewers, that's not counting streaming and others, fell short of james comey's testimony which had 19.5. the christine blasey fort 20 million, or the michael cohen that had 16 million. while these other events were con find find to a single day, these will play out over many days. that could either scatter viewership or build interest over time. apparently among those not paying attention to impeachment

or perhaps mindful of the long adds that it results in the president's removal, wall street. yesterday the dow jones industrial reached a milestone. perhaps another reason why half of america seems not that concerned with impeachment. but if americans are not now dialed in, it means they're getting their information secondhand. so that they can still look smart at the local coffee house. in the watergate era that meant working americans watched reruns of the impeachment hearings shown in "primetime" on pbs. sadly today too many will rely on their echo chambers instead of seeing and hearing for themselves. the only commonalty will thus be the conclusion that we are witnessing the crime of the century. but whether that means the president is perpetrator or victim depends on where you get your information. so instead, here's my advice. invest in time in this. it's important. and then do some evidentiary

thinking and make up your own mind. joining me now is the president of due cane university, ken goermly, an impeachment scholar author of the death of american virtue, and archi bald cox, con shen shengs of a nation. do the rules of due process apply to what's going on in the house? >> well, michael, the framers gave the house wide latitude in terms of how they conduct impeachment trials. so frankly they don't have to have hearings at all. it is up to them as to how to conduct it. it was designed for them to act swiftly. for instance, if a president sub verted the government, shot someone in the streets, they could move to impeach immediately without any proceedings at all. so actually the current proceedings that allow for wittess ins which they have

agreed to themselves for each side to ask questions of the witnesses, is more than is required under the constitution. they have free rein and ultimately the framers set it up that if the house, they gave this power to the house because they were closest to the people. if they didn't perform correctly the people could vote them out of office next time. >> if we then get to a snoenate trial, how will it look differently than the house? >> the senate is different. it has the sole power to try impeachments. i attended the first day of the impeachment trial of bill clinton. it was a somber day. no one wants to be there. you have the house managers who present the case on behalf of the house. the president would have counsel there to defend against the charges. the chief justice under the constitution presides over it. and the senators sit there sitting in judgment.

but this is a political proceeding. it is not a criminal proceeding. and so it's quite a bit the seno be more decorum there. it isn't usually a circus-like atmosphere. it's 100 people. it's a smaller number of peopl . it would be incidentally in the house chambers. senate isn't big enough. i would look for something much more serious and subdued. >> i appreciate the opportunity to run through and tick off a number of the items that we've heard bandied about this week. you're a constitutional scholar. here's another one. i keep hearing, well, this is all hearsay. what's the likelihood there will be adigtsal witnesses presented in a senate trial who were not a part of the house process? >> that's a great question. the first question is whether there are going to be any live witnesses at all. in the clinton hearing for

instance in the trial, when the house impeached president clinton, i interviewed senator trent block the republican leader, he said he felt like a bomb had been pitched into his lap. he did not want to have any parts of this. ironically, the senate democrats and republicans got to the together, led by teddy kennedy, and phil graham from texas, and they decided together that they were going to agree to agree, that they were not going to have w witnesses at all and they were going to stick to the evidence that was submitted in the house. that allowed for more certainty. it didn't allow for new bombs to go off and surprises. and i wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see the same thing here. >> i keep wondering, final question, and thank you, ken, will we hear from rudy giuliani? will we hear from mick mulvaney yb john bolton where before this

has run its course? what do you think? >> i think that that goes down some treacherous terrain if you try to bring them in. rudy giuliani is in a different position because he's not a federal official. he's not been appointed by the senate. he's a private individual. i could not find or incarcerate the if he refused to come in. in each case, there is peril for each side of this. in the impeachment of andrew johnson, andrew johnson ended up leaving office in disgrace and died in disgrace. president nixon flew off in a green helicopter. bill clinton survived. but al gore carried the scar of that. henry hide told me if it weren't for the impeachment there wouldn't been a president bush. there is trouble abounding. look for the more senior senators to put pressure on

their leaders to get this over as quickly as possible for the benefit of the institution of the senate but also for the senators themselves. >> can goermly, president of due cane university, thank you. >> thank you, michael. always a pleasure. >> what are your thoughts? tweet me. i will read in responses. smerconish, democrats, quit wasting time. you've decided. send it to the senate and get back to work. impeachment circus. you can make the same point. democrats you're 100% decided. you can say thing about the republicans. you're 100% decided against. what's frustrating to me about this is how little evidentiary analysis is taking place. how few people are like legitimately i should say members of congress and the public are legitimately interested in trying to figure out what went on here, ask probing questions of both sides,

et cetera. instead it's a foregone conclusion how everybody lo vote. that's frustrating. economy is rocking and impeachment is a joke. mike, i got to say, you know, i hope i'm right about this, i think that i am. this is the front page of the times today. i bought it at withthis morning. i don't see any mention of the dow hitting high for the first time. i think that's indicative of a bubble mentality. 28,000 is significant for a lot of americans. up ahead a threatened lawsuit against the university of california asks to stop using the sat and act because they discriminate. could this be the death for the standardized test? the party insiders known as super delegates helped hillary clinton win the nomination and caused a lot of tears among

bernie sanders supporters. but with such a large pool could a brokered convention be looming? will super delegates end up choosing the momny? after the play miles garret ripped the helmet off his opponent. then smashed it against rudolph's head. he's been suspended. is that enough? in many circumstances, this would be seen as a crime. i want to know what you think. go to my website add smerconish.com and answer this, should he be criminally charged? of nowhere.

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i think my go-to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. give us a moment in pro football that had comment taytors, fans, even fellow teammates stunned, with just secondsing to, miles garret ripped the helmet off the quarterback mason rudolph then smachded smashed it against his head. a massive fight ensues between the two teams. garret has apologized and said his actions were selfish and unacceptable. he's been suspected without pay indefinitely and fierched. both teams fined a quarter of a

million dollars for the brawl and two other players received one and 3-game suspensions for their involvement. but some seemed to be calling for more action to be taken against garret. tweeted, that's assault at at least. six months in jail on the street. now add the weapon and that was at least a year, right? the cleveland place police say they have not dpiel charges unless rudolph files a report. should he be criminally charged? with me now former football player at harvard and the c.e.o. dr. chris knewinsky, kevin see fert posted this. on thursday night cleveland browns miles garret excicommitt the closest thing we've seen to afternoon on field crime in the

modern era of football. do you see it this way? >> yes. well we're all unlucky he didn't strike him with the top of the helmet and frommingture his skull or give him a severe brain injury. you have to come down hard on the act. we all need to appreciate that if you hit somebody in the head with a hard object, you can kill them and you can't accept that under any circumstances. but there's a lot of layers to this story. one way to look at it, i actually feel some sympathy for garret. if you watch the whole sequence, the idea of ripping off the helmet came from rudolph. he was trying to rip the helmet off of garret. as a former lineman myself, i understand what he was thinking. you got this little guy trying to rip off your helmet. so he decided, i'm bigger than. i'm going to rip off your helmet. garret walks away. and then rudolph without a helmet on comes after him again. and so then there was this

terrible decision. but you can understand it was never garret's intention to actually hurt him. so i see that it's terrible and we have to come down on it. but i don't think we're talking suspending him for the rest of his life. it was bad and needs to be punished and then we move on. >> you look at the impact. by the way the "new york post" captured it in as only they can on the front cover today. it's amazing that he didn't, you know so much about the head and football injuries. it's amazing that he didn't sustain a serious injury. >> well, yeah. so you hit somebody with the bottom of the helmet you're not going to deliver as much energy. i think everyone is very lucky that that happened. mason rudolph is coming off a very serious concussion a few weeks ago. you can imagine there could have been a second concussion that might have changed his career and then we're all dealing with the tragedy of a young person who's career is ended by an

incident that should not take place. we all agree when we get on the field we could get hurt but that's within the realms of the rules. but when you break the rules that's when things get very bad. but let's remember that this story line is eclipsing the other one around brains, which is that the top two wide receivers for the steelers both suffered concussions on legal helmet to helmet hits. schuster and johnson are both now out. one was penal liesed where the cleveland backgrounds ejected. they delivered brain injuries to very good players that could hurt their careers in illegal matters. those players are not being talked about as being suspended even though they could be out for six weeks with brain injuries. the jez of justice and fairness, there's a lot to unpack. >> so the police say, we're not doing anything unless mason rudolph comes to us and files a

complaint of sorts. you know the culture. you know the mentality of these guys. you yourself played at a very high level. would he be ostracized in the game if he tried to go that route? if the quarterback tried to go after the defensive end and assert a krichlnal charge or initiate one? >> if he was actually hurt and if this affected his career going forward, i think everyone would understand why you would pursue a krichlnal or civil case. i think because he wasn't hurt and because the film now shows that he sort of started this and had a big role in it, i think he's going to move on and not file any charges. that would be my guess. but i think you know it's already interesting to think -- yeah, no problem, michael. >> finish your thought real quick. >> the other thing is that one of the interesting crimes here when you think about how nfl pun ishds people, this was done on camera live in front of millions of people, so you have to be accountable. as a column in usa today where

she talks about if there was an off field crime and he struck a woman, the six-game suspension wouldn't be adds fast and they wouldn't be talking about should he come back to the nfl? so again, there is a lot to think about as we talk about what's inappropriate. just don't hit people with your helmet. >> that's why i made it the survey question today. what are you saying on my smerconish facebook and twitter pages? what do pef? if pitchers aren't charged for throwing hundred mile per hour pitches and hockey players aren't charged for gashing with sticks, well a pitcher unless he deliberately throws at somebody's head and -- this was deliberate. as i lawyer i look at this and say he acted with malice. i want to know what you think. go to my website at smerconish right now and answer the question. should miles garret be

criminally charged? it's not going to happen unless mason rudolph files that. i want to know what you think. up ahead duval patrick and maybe michael bloomberg have joined the democratic field. with so many candidates there may not be a clear front-runner. could we be headed to a brokered convention? and if the s.a.t. and a.c.t. don't predict, why do schools keep requiring them? that may change if california seeds. i'll talk to the filmmaker of get me, roger stone. >> i'm an agent pro vaukture. >> political strategist. >> controversial adds you can get. >> an incredible capacity for treatry. >> when it all costs, mentality. >> when people think of washington corruption, they think of roger stone. >> those who say i have no soul,

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with the recent addictions of duvall patrick and maybe michael bloomberg, are the democrats doomed to get their nominee by brokered convention? the tight pack with diverse appeal, it seems unlikely that a single front-runner will emerge

after the first four states. by march 10 more than 50% of the delegates will be pledged divided proportionately among each person. making it difficult for any one candidate to win a majority. this puts the focus on the party's use of super delegates, c consisting of congress, dnc, they vote. if nobody wins on the first ballot and gets to choose for themselves. in 2016 these same insiders helped hillary clinton beat bernie sanders. joining me now, chair of the 2004 democratic convention. governor, are we headed to a brokered convention? >> i believe we are.

for the following reason. there's a total of 4600 delegates that are out there, 3800 are pledged. but these superdelegates 785 to be the margin of victory. they can't vote until after the sect ballot. if you look at the top tir, joe biden, elizabeth warn, bloomberg and patrick come in, they're all bunched up around 20% or a little lower. and you need one thousand one 19 to get a first ballot victory. i don't think that's going to happ happen. the rules point towards -- the new rules that have been from the democratic national committee point to a brokered convention in the second and third ballot where everybody is free after the second ballot.

second ballot, third ballot, potentially some new candidates might emerge that perhaps didn't enter the primaries. like michelle obama, the most popular democrat in the country. like senator brown. >> do you really think that's a possibility, that she would get in? >> no. i think the delegates would want somebody that can win. there's desperation for victory. sherrod brown of ohio, michelle obama, somebody like that. possibly tom hanks, the actor. i know that's a little farfetched. but democrats right now, there could be a very divided brokered convention where everybody is mad at each other and then somebody new emerges. that's a possibility. >> governor, is this necessarily a bad thing for the party? >> no, i think it's good. you know, the fact that we have a lot of candidates out there, i think the national committee has done a good job with the

debates, winnowing down the candidates. we've built the strong bench for the future. i think the party is going to regain its strength because of the diversity of the country. you about i think what we need to do, michael, as a party is the upper midwest is key. we've got to increase the turnout of minority voters, hispanic and african-american voters and we've got to appeal to that white noneducated college voter that seems to be esscaping us. i think it's looking good. but i think this fierce debate, the debates that have taken place, a brokered convention is good for the party. that's my view. >> final observation. i think that super delegates and the concept are improperly villainized. there's a reason why the party thought they needed this input. and it is electability. you get the final word. >> well, the final word i

believe is super delegates in the past i think were too many. they've been reduced and they can only vote in the second ballot. that's 785, it's party insiders, you're right, it's elected officials, members of congress, people that know politics, that know polling, know where the country is heading. i don't think it's necessarily bad that they're going to have a very strong role. so i think that's good, what's happened. i think the national committee has responded in a positive way to having less super delegates. but now with this brokered convention potential and the rules that are leading towards a brokered convention. i think this is healthy. >> governor, nice to have you back. thank you so much. >> thank you. thank you. let's check in on your tweets and facebook comments. from twitter i think every potus election season in the modern era a brokered convention is rumored to be on the horizon. spoiler alert, michael, it never

happens. don't let the air out of my tires. it might happen this time. there's a reason why this year is different. california and texas have moved forward to super tuesday which is march the the3rd. a big share of votes will be cast that day. there's a very real prospect that a lot of individuals will have some share of the vote. and my god, you've still got duvall patrick and michael bloomberg getting in now. hillary clinton don't tell me she doesn't want to be drafted. people are asking and putting pressure on me. hey, they are to me too pop to do what, i'm not sure. is the s.a.t. about to become obsolete? nobody would be happier than this cnn host who despite taking the test several time never rose above the mendoza line. a new lawsuit may go towards

elimnating. and self-described provocateur, roger stone found guilty of releasing hacked emails. has he turned his last dirty trick? here's what alex jones had to say. >> he's not even allowed to say, i want to be freed by the president and i need to watch out, the lawyers are telling me. because i'm doing what roger said. take control with theraflu. powerful, soothing relief to defeat your worst cold and flu symptoms fast. device: (sneezes) theraflu. the power is in your hands.

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is california about to again lead the nation? several groups in the state are threatening to file the nation's first lawsuit seeking the end the use of standardized tests in college admissions. they've demanded the university of california stop requiring applicants take the s.a.t. and a.c.t. alleging they unlawfully discriminate against low-income and underrepresented minority students. if this happens it would be enormous because the uc system is the largest single system for the tests. six of its ten campuses which educate lots of under graduates receive the most. the tests have been madal at more than a thousand. at george washington, wesleyan, and the university of chicago.

this is the director of the national center for fair and open testing. the konst kweconsequences would enormous because of the scope of the university of california system? >> that's right. thanks for having us on. yeah, the university of california is the grand prize. it was the grand prize for the testing companies as they expanded into national businesses. and it's a grand prize for the movement to eliminate unfair barriers to access posed by standardized tests like the a.c.t. and s.a.t. that's why there's so much focus on this to eliminate those tests in the admissions process. >> it's interesting that the challenges being asserted here on behalf of the disabled or minority or lowin come. i'm none of those things but i'm against the s.a.t. and a.c.t. because i think it's a cottage

industry and too much emphasis is put on one test where that time spent you could be proficient in a musical instruments. "the wall street journal" called it a mert tok racy waterloo. so is the entire college add migs tournaments which weighs opportunities, race, character. testi testi testing is at least objective. >> test scores aren't measured, merit. they measure a skill at taking a test which is not the same as being good in school. in fact research by the testmakers themselves shows that high school grades, your tests that you've taken in high school, the rigor of courses you've taken, is a better predictor of how well you'll do in college than either of their tests.

there's nothing in filling in bubbles on a saturday morning that is like what you do in college. it's a poor, unfair measure. and the s.a.t. and a.c.t. need to be elimb nated in california and elsewhere as more than many have done. >> we're having this conversation at the right time because students are on pins and needles awaiting early decision. what does the data say as to the relationship if any between your performance on the s.a.t. and your ability to do well in college? >> the s.a.t. and a.c.t. are weak pro diketors of first year grades in college, not as strong as high school record. and when it comes to outcomes that really matter, like graduating, getting a decent gpa, getting honors and whatnot. those tests are almost

irrelevant. they create discriminatory barriers to kids who's parents can't afford high prized coaching, who don't go to schools where the curriculum is amtd at preparing you to take the toefts of tests. those tests are primarily measures of accumulated advantage, not the ability to perform in college or in life. >> look, i wear my poor score like a badge of honor. in my case, it was of zero predictive value in what was about to unfold in my life. thank you so much for being here. we'll keep tabs on this story. >> thank you, michael. up next, longtime trump confidant coverage stone convicted on friday of lying to congress and tampering with a it witness. i'll discuss the outcome with the film naiker maker, get me r stone. >> i revel in your hatred.

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has roger stone's career of dirty tricks finally cute up with him? friday president trump's longtime friend was convicted on five counts of lying to congress, one of obstruction and one in tampering with what he knew of wikileaks. the president tweeted they now convict roger stone of lying, a double standard like never seen before in the history of our country. my next guest spent five years as codirector of the documentary, get me roger stone. here's a taste. >> i suggested that trump should explore a bid for the presidency. >> he created donald trump as a political figure. >> loser.

>> what have i lied about? >> have you spoken with the wikileaks founder? >> you have to be outrageous to get noticed. >> america may be collapsing, but roger stone is determined to enjoy it. >> dilan bank joins me now. nobody wants to go away. but in some perverse sense, does he wear this as a badge of honor? you came to know him so well when you made that documentary. >> in some regards roger has always been pitching certainly in the recent years, he's the victim, the person that the deep state is coming after. but it's going to be very hard for roger to spin this in a positive light. roger got where he's at because he's obsessive, can't shut up his mouth and energy and his addictiontion to election night drives him and drives him. and then it often backfires on him. this is maybe the ultimate case

of his mouth backfiring on him. he was doing his same old thing, threatening, using nix on quotes, while texting on an fbi investigation. >> well, and some of what he regards as stone's rules came into the trial. in fact i'll put this on the screen. the gore i'll quote that roger loves, stone himself explained his philosophy in a clip played for jurors quoting the writer gore viddal, never pass up an opportunity to have sex or appear on television. now the next line says, not one juror smiled. maybe a humorless bunch. i'm not sure. what do you make of that? >> yes. as i just said, roger is trying his same old tricks. he's pulling out his jokes. he's pulling out his lines. but that doesn't actually matter in this case. because he just straight-up said things that could be demon

strably proven not true and there was no spin he could give to the jury. now he's trying his spin. now he's trying it to an audience of one, which is donald trump. and he is going out there big and public and putting out there that he directly wants a pardon for donald trump. and this is going to be the test case as to what loyalty really adds up to for donald. because nobody has been more vocal and loyal than roger at least in the past few years. >> put that tweet back up. now they convict roger stone of lying and want to jail him for many years to come. what about crooked comb hillary, comey, oren swb, steele, didn't they lie? a double standard like never seen before in the history of the country. one would think that any serious contemplation by the president of a pardon for stone would have to come post-november of 2020.

>> absolutely. they're going to have to wait until this plays out. and it wouldn't surprise me if donald trump did a pardon on his very last day, whenever that adds up to be, so he doesn't take any personal heat for it. if there's one person who can get through to donald trump and appeal on a personal level, it should be roger stone. they've had their falling outs over the years as roger's first wife anne says in our film, get me roger stone, roger and donald have gotten married and divorced more times than we can count. but roger said i am on team trump and went on his own, went out there and created crowds of people, rallying people together to say, lock her up. he wasn't having them say that because hillary clinton was just a back room politician making shady deals. he was out there saying bill and hillary clinton were serial

killers. he took it upon himself to go >> dylan, the documentary is tremendous and really, really captures the roger that i have known for many, many years. congratulations on your film. >> thank you so much. still to come action your best and worst tweets and facebook comments. what do we have, from facebook, i think. what does roger know that he could spill if not pardoned? oh, sean, sean, sean, sean. i think roger knows where all the bodies are buried, and not just for this president of the united states. but it doesn't strike me as the guy who ever spills. we'll give you the final results of the survey question at smerconish.com. cleveland browns myles garrett was suspended by the nfl indefinitely by ripping off pittsburgh quarterback mason rudolph's helmet, striking him on the head during the final seconds of thursday night football. so should he be criminally charged? go to my website right now and

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time to see how you responded to the survey question at smerconish.com. you've seen the dramatic video. cleveland browns defensive end myles garrett uses the helmet to take a swing at steelers quarterback mason rudolph. so should nfl player myles garrett be criminally charged?

survey says -- 61% yes. whoa! whoa! 9,389 votes cast, nearly scientific. of course unless mason rudolph cooperates, it's not going to happen. but what an interesting barometer of what you're thinking. what else has come in during the course of the program? let's take a look. the dow is not the economy. where is my better and cheaper health care? have you been been to a grocery store? restaurant? buy an airline ticket? a sporting event? cable tv? medication? prices have gone up. jug, if the headline were that the dow had tanked, would you nevertheless be holding him accountable? because you've got to be consistent. the dow is up and there are a lot of barometers that are up. and i think that the president can rightfully lay claim to that. it's a big story. what else has come in? here's another one. great start to the show with roger hodgson.

not everyone is listening because of news cycle burnout. but each side isn't listening to each other. it's like screaming at the ocean. yeah, it's sad. this is serious stuff. i worry about all the other stories that are not getting enough oxygen. join me for my american life and college tours next up in pittsburgh on january 26. thanks for watching, see you next week. in tremfya® was pron superior to humira® in providing significantly clearer skin. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya®. uncover clearer skin that can last. janssen can help you explore cost support options.

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