this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. today on the show, the other nation at the center of the i peachment hearings. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. why does this nation, stuck between east and west, have such an oversized role in this white house matter? and what do actual ukrainians think about the goings on in washington? we'll explore it all.

also it was an especially violent week in hong kong. fires set, universities being blockaded, protesters being fired upon. what is the end game for the protesters? i will talk to the prominent hong kong activist nathan wong. but first here is my take. the phrase quid pro quo is usually translated as something for something. in the case of president trump's communications with ukrainian president voladmir zelensky it was to be his commitment to undertake investigations into the 2016 election as well as joe and hunter biden. "the new york times" reports that a public announcement was set to be made on my cnn program. i think i owe viewers my best

understanding of what actually happened. ever since zelensky was elected president in april, my team and i have been interested to have him appearing on the show. we began the process with establish i establishing communication with the new administration which was coordinated throughout. i met with zelensky in kyiv. he came across as smart, energetic and with a much sharper feel for politics than you might expect from a neophyte. it was a brief discussion, but we discussed ukraine's relatins with russia, the u.s., economic reform and corruption. we also talked about whether he wanted to do the interview in english, which he speaks well, or ukrainian. i left with a sense all was well. zelensky seemed a bit distracted but i assumed this was because of the many challenges he faced. it's a testament to zelensky's skill that he did not let on in any way the immense pressure he

was under, as we now know for months the trump white house had been mounting an intense campaign to force him to publicly announce those investigations. he had tried to resist and put them off in various ways, but ultimately decided he would have to give in, according to "the times." his team apparently concluded since he was planning an interview with me anyway, that would be the forum in which he would make the announcement, though he nor his team ever gave us any inkling of that. my team had begun to discuss the potential logistics of the interview with his team, time and place, but the ground had already begun to shift. on september 5th, "the washington post" published an editorial, revealing it had been reliably told that trump was trying to force zelensky to investigate joe biden. on september 9th, four days before my visit to kyiv, house democrats initiated an

investigation into the allegations. that same day, the intelligence community inspector general notified the house and senate intelligence committees of the whistle-blower complaint. the next day, september 10th, house intelligence committees chairman adam schiff sent a letter to joseph mcguire, demanding he turn over the complaint and then on september 11th, aid to ukraine was unfrozen with no conditions. just imagine zelensky's dilemma. by the time i met with him in kyi investment, he knew the aid had been released but the backstory had not yet broken into public view. ukrainians i spoke about the release of the aid were delighted but a little surprised and unsure as to what happened. zelensky and his team were probably still trying to figure out whether they should do the interview. september 18th and 19th, "the washington post" broke the story wide open. the interview was called off.

we are, of course, still trying to get it. for more, go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. ukraine was center stage at the house impeachment hearings this week. it is also in the center geopolitically, stuck with russia to the east and europe yat west, once intimately connected to russia, today they are at war with this neighbor. in 2014, russia invaded ukraine, anexed crimea. today russian-backed troops remain in eastern ukraine and kyiv relies on america and europe to provide weapons, money and other support to help in its fight against moscow. as you ponder president trump's phone call with ukraine's new

president, zelensky. to help us understand more of the geopolitics, i want to bring in phil gordon, the assistant secretary of state for european and eurasia affairs. in that role, he was responsible for ukraine. phil, pleasure to have you on. can you tell us, to begin with, what do you make of the charge that, to put it as some republican congressmen did, obama gave ukraine blankets but trump gave them weapons. in other words at the end of the day, trump has been far more generous in his support for the ukrainians and their struggle against the russians than obama was? >> well, it is certainly true that the trump administration started supplying a degree of weaponry, javel. n anti-tank missiles that the obama administration wasn't supplying to ukraine. that's a fact. it was a policy call.

i think president obama's view was that ukraine could never fight its way out of this situation. and that escalating on behalf of the ukrainians would just lead the russians to escalate more and would we be prepared to if down that route? there are people, including vice president biden who were on the other side of that debate but ultimately in that sense, the trump administration provided more direct military support to ukraine. the issue now, however, is whether the trump administration then sought to use that leverage it was providing to ukraine for other purposes and was willing -- that's what the whole impeachment business is about, was willing to withdraw that support that it had started to give to ukraine for political purposes, notably the investigation of the vice president -- former vice president and his son. >> let's ta you can about that piece of it.

again, you were, in a sense, or the state department was overseeing all of this policy. tell us about what vice president biden was doing and whether it is fair. again, the charges that vice president biden was out there, in charge of ukraine and the ukrainian policy and he was trying to get an anti-corruption official in ukraine fired because that guy was investigating burisma, the company at which his son was a director. what's your reaction to that charge? >> my reaction is that the charge is deeply il logical, even on its face, if you really think about it. what burisma wasn't being investigated at the time by that prosecutor. the problem in general, was that the prosecutor himself was seen as corrupt and not pursuing corruption. what vice president biden was

trying to do to get the ukrai ukrainians to be more serious about investigating corruption. that meant getting rid of that prosecutor who wasn't doing anything and getting one in place that would actually fight corruption. where his son and that company is concerned is succeeding in that, to get the ukrainians to change prosecutors and investigate corruption would have made it more likely that that company would be investigated rather than less likely. on the face of it, it doesn't hold up and doesn't make any sense. >> let me ask you about what you have seen and learned in terms of the way in which the state department is working in the trump administration. particularly the attack on the previous ukrainian ambassador, these attacks on the state department officials. the president calls them never trumpers, when there's no evidence that either of them was that. what's that doing to the state

department, to ambassadors? >> this was already a tough situation. and then on top of that, this particular ukraine case where you see the ambassdor to ukraine, yovanovitch, who had done hard posts in republican and democratic posts. president bush appointed her to ambassador of armenia. highly respected, well liked, fired for not willing to do the president's bidding. she came under fire in the media because rudy giuliani and president's son, don jr., started going after her, making allegations. next thing you know, she was removed. frankly, the state department misled the public saying she was removed as scheduled when it wasn't as scheduled. she was removed early, apparently because she wasn't willing to get involved in what

former national security adviser bolton called, quote, unquote, a drug deal, meaning these nefarious activities in ukraine. >> we saw the transcript of the july 25th call, president trump called her the woman, didn't even know her name, called her bad news and things are going to happen to her. how should senior service people feel when they see one of their stars fired from her job, no reason given. when she got back she was told she didn't make any mistakes or do anything wrong but the president wasn't satisfied with her and she had to go. i think the foreign service morale has been pretty low for understandable reasons the past three years but has gotten a boost to see some of their coal colleagues show they are nonpartisan, anti-trumpers. they're called anti-trump because they're not taking a

position convenient for the president. they are patriotic, hard-working americans. i think that's been heartening for a lot of people at state to see in the last couple of weeks. >> phil gordon, pleasure to have you on. thank you. >> thank you, fareed. next on "gps," with all this talk about ukraine, virtual airwaves have been empty of actual ukrainian voices. i'll talk to two high-profile ukrainians about how their country feels about what is going on in washington. don't forget, go to cnn.com/f cnn.com/fareed for a link to my itunes podcast. even after you clean, odors are still trapped in your fabrics.

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an analysis of the first day of impeachment hearings shows ukraine or ukrainian was said roughly 500 times that day. it occurred to me that despite ukraine playing such a central role in this matter we've heard from few actual ukrainians. i wanted to fix that. so, a foreign policy adviser to ukraine's prime minister, former member of parliament and former journalist. mustafa is also a journalist and former member of parliament.

mustafa, let me start with you. what are ukrainians thinking to the extent that you want to represent them about what they are hearing in washington? >> actually, first of all, we don't want to, in any way, interfere with what's going on in united states politics. from that aside, the support of the united states is very important for us, for a country which is in state of war in russia. it's very sad situation when our enemies, those who are looking for any chance to hurt ukraine or our relationship with united states are now happy with this situation. >> svetlana, what did you think when the transcript of president trump and president zelensky was released? must have surprised all of you. >> it's not helpful, i have to say. and it's not helpful because of

the fact that i feel that, you know, the house is on fire. i mean, our democratic world we live in and as ukraine we're in the center of this fire. there's war going on. at the same time we feel that there is a deterioration with our extra tee our strategic partner. i would like to reiterate, still is our strategic partner and we still need bipartisan support. what's going on in the region has, i would say, like very crucial impact on the development in the regional geopolitics in the regional politics in general, and our cooperation and our coordination does matter. >> mustafa, does it strike you

that ukraine, the way it's being discussed in the u.s., it has become more of a political football being used rather than a natural serious strategic conversation. >> it's not about strategic conversation, of course. it's more about ambitions and political gains. we understand during the election, both sides can do many things that they won't be able to do after election. we're really sad that ukraine is in this game not as a partner but as a subject, as someone who can be, you know, used. so i think that for both sides, for united states, for ukraine, this -- you know, as you said really it's football, political football, doesn't work in our interests and for those people in ukraine who are fighting on the front line and those people who lost their father's sons it

is not a very helpful situation when our bigest partner, and we need this partner. we are very grateful to this partner but this partner now is trying to use their inner gain our war and our actually tragedy, which is in ukraine after 2014. >> svitlana, how do you think president zelensky comes off in all of this? i look at it, and he seems to have been very shrewd in how he was managing a very difficult situation. >> right. so, in my mind, president z zelensky was acting out of the best state interests. some may think that telephone conversation was not the best diplomatic, let's say, not done in the best diplomatic way but it's absolutely obvious that mr. zelensky was trying to ensure

that we have support of u.s. many things depend on this support. >> mustafa, do you think president zelensky, you know, dodged a bullet, as we say? missed a situation which could have been very embarrassing, had he been forced to announce an investigation into the bidens or burisma? >> you know, actually, we should be understand that despite mr. zelensky's not so sophisticated experienced politician as mr. trump but i think he did many right things. first of all, he didn't do something illegal in ukraine. i mean, he didn't force our law enforcement agencies to do, in some political interests, his interests or someone else. second, that he really showed that he is open to some cooperation if united states law enforcement agencies officially will apply for some assistance

in this investigation. and the third, we should understand one thing. we understand who is mr. trump. president of the biggest democracy in the world and the biggest economy. and it's very difficult to refuse something. a and, of course, we feel that there were some pressure or maybe some attempt to ask for something not maybe right things, but we saw that there was no consequences of this conversation in ukrainian policy. and for us, for a country which were under pressure of politic al vasted interest of many politicians during all of our independence years, country in which politicians always used law enforcement agencies, police, prosecutor and secretaries for their political interest.

for us, it is very good sign that even in this situation, when maybe it was very easy to say something and to act something, somehow illegally, our president didn't do that. >> mustafa, svitlana, thank you very much. that was much-needed perspective from ukraine. next on gps, if you listen to the impeachment hearings this week, you might have heard the phrase "crowd strike," part of a conspiracy theory that's been woven around computer servers, the dnc and, of course, ukraine. we'll get to the bottom of it when we come back. of nowhere.

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now for our what in the world segment. one of the most mystifying aspects of the president's phone call withzelensky, what is crowd strike, and why was president trump so interested in it? a fellow at the center who studies george kent at one point was asked what do you know about crowd strike and he said honestly the first time i learned about it was when i read the transcript of the call. made me feel a little bit better because i knew a little bit about it vaguely. i was surprised it occupies such

a large space in donald trump's imaginati imagination. >> absolutely. >> what is crowd strike? >> it's a cyber security firm. for some reason he believes in this conspiracy theory tha crowdstrike, which discovered the hack on the dnc servers, which the intelligence community says was perpetrated by russia, unanimous consent on that, they discover this had hack. because they have a russian ceo, he believes the ceo is ukrainian, apparently. >> trump does? >> trump believes that. >> even though he is russian? >> russian-born american, exactly. he believes those servers somehow are located in ukraine and this plugs into another broader conspiracy about the ukrainians colluding with the democrats who win the election

against trump, which has also been debunked. >> so crowd strike was part of the a ukrainian plot to hack the dnc servers and then make it look like the russians had done it in? >> absolutely. it's hard to explain because there's so many layers. and president trump wants to detract from the conclusions of the intelligence community, unanimous conclusions that came out at the end of 2016, detract from the conclusions of the mueller report and make ukraine look bad after it -- all of these allegations about trump pressuring the ukrainian president came out. he wants to bring out these allegations of corruption. >> it is such a peculiar theory. where does it come from, the theory that this was not russia that hacked but the ukrainians that -- the company that discovered it, showing that somehow ukraine did. where does all of that original

na originate from? >> depositions released as part of the mueller inquiry these came from konstantin kilimnick. supporting the trump presidency because he seems to be okay at looking the other way at the real corruption that exists in ukraine. it would have been a personal benefit for kelimnick and m manafort. it seems to have taken a seed in the president's mind in 2016 and grown since then. it was the first thing he mentioned to zelensky when asking for him to do him a favor. >> kilimnick, paul man manafort associate, manafort was trump's manager. do you think in some way that russian disinformation is behind

it? how would you descrie it? >> i would hesitate to thak ma tricks until we either saw some communication or something on the back end that supported that theory. certainly it supports the russian world view. we know president trump supports and konstantin kilimnick and paul manafort was pro-corrupt system and that leads to being pro russian. and all of this is great for russia. it undermines ukraine's integration, undermines u.s. support for democracy in countries like ukraine. not just ukraine but all around the world. and it makes uslooklikeour own democracy and democracy support for abroad, these policies that have guided us since the fall of the berlin wall, can be sold. >> back to crowdstrike, i think what you're saying is manafort

and his associate were working for the old corrupt ukraine crayon dictator. part of what happens is manafort is essentially outed and trump is enraged by that. i think that's where the original animous against ukraine comes from. then he heard this conspiracy theory which was not the russians but the ukrainians who are to blame for interfering in the 2016 election and not to help him but actually to hurt him. >> uh-huh. >> he buy this is to the extent, as you say, is his number one ask to the ukrainian president. >> when you lay it out that way, it's clear. these statements that trump has been making have gone back and preceded even manafort being fired as campaign manager. during the summer of 2016, he was calling into question ukraine's territorial sovereignty and said maybe

crimea is part of russia and that was very worrying for ukrainians. of course ukrainians had a reason to be worried about a trump presidency because he was calling into question the very existence of their nation. >> pleasure having you on. >> thank you for having me. next on "gps," hong kong protesters want real democracy. it's highly unlikely the chinese government will grant t are we in for a forever war between the two sides? one of the founders of the protests will talk to me when we come back. a wealth of perspective. ♪ a wealth of opportunities. that's the clarity you get from fidelity wealth management. straightforward advice, tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management.

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secretary of state pompeo wednesday appealed for an end to the violence in hong kong. he called on chinese counterparts to respect the one country, two systems arrangement. credited with coming up with the system, which was applied to hong kong when the brits handed the territory back to the chinese in 1997. it affords hong kongers more freedom and democracy than their mainland counterparts but that system may be cracking. joining me now is nathan law, one of hong kong's long-time protest leaders. he is now a student at yale. you seem much too young to be leading a protest against the chinese government. how did this happen? >> five years ago, we had a huge

occupation in pursuit of democracy and by then, there were a group of students that took lead of the protests and i'm one of them. and i think it is important to remind us, hong kongers and the world, that democracy and autonomy are the promises that the beijing government made in the '80s. we're only humbly asking them to fulfill their promises. i think it is all of our responsibility. in hong kong particularly, i don't think the current movement in terms of age, in terms of education that we are having a huge consensus for fighting for what we deserve. >> and explain the demands. they remain those five demands and the most important one of them is democracy. you want one man, one vote in hong kong. >> yes, the five demands of the current movement have been very consistent. and one of them is fighting for democracy for hong kong.

for now our chief executive and our legislator are not elected in democratic election. >> most people look at it and say the chinese government is simply not going to allow democra democracy in hong kong because then that will have rep repercussions for mainland china, but you say you won't stop protesting. how will this end? >> i don't think hong kong people are fighting this battle alone. we've seen bipartisan, huge support from the u.s. and all around the world. when china signed the british declaration with the british government, it was an international treaty and a lot of other countries recognize it. and the global community has an obligation in terms of monetarying its implementation and most importantly, hong kong is at a forefront of fighting a global fight that we are stopped

paying the recession of democracy. >> do you have support from people of congress hong? hong kong has businessmen. they're losing money. hong kong is in recession. people are fleeing. do you have support from people in hong kong or is that waning? >> if you look at the latest ra rating, which has been dropping since the protest for carrie lam. it's 71%, astonishing figure. if you look at the demands of the people, 80% of people supporting the setting up of independent inquiry commission. >> which percent support democracy? >> 82. this is a huge consensus from the mass public of hong kong. >> what are you going to do? you're a student at yale. you're going to go back. when you go back, will you get arrested? what do you expect? >> hong kong is my hometown and i devoted my previous years of

fighting for democracy and i will be back to hong kong to stand with my fellows and to work together until hong kong is another great city with democracy and back to human dignity. >> nathan law, pleasure to have you along. >> thank you. up next, hopefully you're recycling everything you can, drive a prius or tesla, solar panels on your house f you don't think you're doing enough, my next guest will put your mind at ease. i was covered from head to toe. i was afraid to show my skin. it was kind of a shock after... i started cosentyx. i wasn't covered anymore. four years clear. five years now. i just look and feel better. see me. cosentyx works fast to give you clear skin that can last. real people with psoriasis look and feel better with cosentyx.

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many believe that to save the world, we must make radical

changes, stop eating meats, stop flying, stop driving, stop using air conditioning. in other words, stop much of what makes us modern. my next guest is here to tell us that's all wrong. i'll let him explain. his latest book is more from less, the surprising story of how we learn to prosper, using fewer resources and what happens next. andrew, explain the pieces of your book briefly. >> briefly, i wrote the book because in america we've turned this really important corner, our economy continues to grow, population continues to grow but year after year now we take fewer resources from the earth, total amount of steel, copper, ten, water, that america consumes is going down year after year. we finally decoupled economic growth and prosperity growth from taking stuff from the earth. it's never happened before. i think it's an important transition. >> you see alan greenspan, the former fed chairman, used to say

if you weighed the economy, weighed the goods it's getting lighter and loiter, we produce more concepts rather than heavy stuff. >> exactly but we are still a manufacturing powerhouse. our manufacturing output is going out but all the metals and minerals we consumed to generate all those products is now going down over time. >> now, what do you say to people like -- there's another book out by smil at m.i.t. who says yes, but we're using way more energy. if you look at the amount of energy it takes to, for example, revolutionize agriculture -- it's now 100 times more productive than it was 100 years ago but you're using 90 times more energy. >> he is absolutely right. energy use continues to increase

very quickly especially as low-income countries are becoming more prosperous. total energy consumption in america has been flat for about a decade. we are at the point of decoupling total energy use from our economic growth. i'm offering a public bet to professor smil or anybody else, i think america will use less energy in ten years than it does today no, matter how big the economy gets. >> what's the consequences? if you're right, what does that mean? >> we don't have to make these radical changes you were talking about at the start, contemplate not growing anymore or voluntarily renouncing consumption. we can continue to grow while taking better care of the planet. low-income countries will get to that point of peak stuff and start decreasing much sooner than we did because they have more access to much more powerful technologies. bangladeshi aren't going to be

staring into cathrode. they have smart phones. >> can poor countries do it? in other words do we have time for everyone to get as rich as america and then start this decoupling, this dematerialization you call it? >> the only reason i'm not confident we have time is because of global warming which is real and bad and we're not taking action on it. greenhouse gases are just a form of air pollution. i don't mean just because they're not easy but they're not mysterious. we've had amazing success at reducing air pollution levels. the the point i make in the book is we know the playbook for dealing with tough problems like pollution, which is a bad side of the capitalistic economy we've built. >> don't think that the solution lies in some kind of personal virtue of restaint and, you know, use less stuff, less energy. think instead of big

technological breakthroughs that make it possible for us to grow and be good at the same time. >> big and small technological breakthroughs, from the gps system to make sure we get fusion in our lifetimes. profit-seeking companies want to keep their costs low, take advantage of technology and improve both the human condition and state of nature. we're already doing it in the rich world. it's time to spread that as quickly as possible instead of voluntarily becoming poor or inflicting poverty i go back to what was said in the '70s. poverty is the greatest polluter i think that's exactly right. let's get out of the poverty business. >> refreshing good news. andrew mcafee, always good to have you. what i love most about being a scientist at 3m is that i'm part of a community of problem solvers.

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a new report warns subdued growth is ahead as economic

drivers like germany stagnate. once behindered by soviet communism is out facing the rest of the continent. of the eight countries with growth of 3% this year all but two were once part of the eastern block. it brings me to my question this week, which of the european union's post communist members has the most booming economy according to eu projections? estonia, poland, romania or hungary? the answer, d, hungary. poland especially with its population of 38 million in robust consumption could help drive the european economy forward if it continues to grow. and with such economic

expansion, hungary and poland have been demanding a greater voice in eu governance as well. expect a clash. those are also the only two european states to ever face censure from the eu, consequence of the swelling tide of illiberal populism there. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. do you have concerns about mild memory loss related to aging? prevagen is the number one pharmacist-recommended memory support brand. you can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

hi, i'm joan lunden. when my mother began forgetting things, we didn't know where to turn for more information. that's why i recommend a free service called a place for mom. we have local senior living advisors who can answer your questions about dementia or memory care and, if necessary, help you find the right place for your mom or dad. we all want what's best for our parents, so call today. those are the ones that show up and change everything.

i'm brian stelter. it's time for "reliable sources" how the media really works, how the news gets made and how all of us can make it better. a conservative radio host who says he was pulled off the air mid show because he was criticizing the president. a brand new report about local news and how to pay for the news we all need. let me start with something positive for a change. check out these