i'm brian stelter. it's time for "reliable sources" how the media really works, how the news gets made and how all of us can make it better. a conservative radio host who says he was pulled off the air mid show because he was criticizing the president. a brand new report about local news and how to pay for the news we all need. let me start with something positive for a change. check out these inspiring words

from a federal courtroom this week, truth still matters. that's what a prosecutor from trump's doj said in the closing arguments of roger stone's trial. he said, quote, i know we live in a world where twitter, tweet, social media, where you can find any political view you want. however in our institutions of self government, courts of law, committee hearings, where people under oath have to testify, truth still matters. truth still matters. and the jury agreed. and end ed up convicting trump' political adviser. in the news, in the impeachment hearings, three of them, three government officials testified, many more coming up in the days ahead. right now there are competing narratives about impeachment. dueling echo chambers, axios says, divergent worlds "the washington post" says.

narratives are not equally true, not equally valid. there are facts over here, like transcripts. and then there's some elaborate fictions. one narrative is grounded in witnesses, testimony under oath, transcripts, receipts, all of it. the other narrative is propped up by conspiracy theories, grievances and a desperate desire to support president trump 1,000% no matter what. witnesses have been debunking these, but to little avail. 35 ways th 45 ways trump has been dishonest about ukraine and impeachment. that's remarkable. false equivalencies are not equally valid narratives that are out there. yes, there are alternative universes of information, competing narratives but they're not equally true. don't take it from me. take it from that doj prosecutor, truth still matters. let's talk more about the truth and why it matters and what's

been happening in the impeachment inquiry coverage. we have an incredible panel here in new york to talk about right wing media's reaction and so much more. nicole hemmer, dan rather, abigail tracy with me. dan, you are our senior correspondent today. you have been watching history, along with the rest of us. do you feel that anything changed after these first two days of televised hearings? >> i think one thing has changed. it's becoming increasingly apparent that truth is closing in. truth does matter. and there's been this feeling that the white house with this alternative narrative, false narrative and with its allies in prime time on fox was at least in a standoff with truth. we've seen the last few days to say truth has begun to close in. things are beginning to matter. the difference between facts and the truth, people under oath and

the false narratives that have been put out in way of defense is beginning to tell. now whether it's making a deep enough impression on public opinion to convince enough in the republican party in power to begin to say to themselves, look, we have to fall in behind the truth i have some doubts, which is it say the republican party as a whole and in particular members of the house and senate and republican party are standing with the president. they're complicit in what he's doing. as long as they are, this false narrative in which it's very easy to give false equivalence to the false narrative may yet reassert itself. what i come back to for the first time i've had the feeling that truth is closing in. facts are closing in. there's still a lot we don't know. i think in the succeeding, say, two to three weeks before christmas, it's going to be

decided whether there's a breakthrough with what we don't know that swings public opinion with enough pressure on enough republicans to make this really interesting in the senate or whether it's a done deal, the house passes impeachment, mitch mcconnell and company kills it in the senate very quickly and we move on. >> let's see if we can come back to mcconnell. jokes at his expense last night. some of the tactics from right wing media. nicole, you wrote the book "messengers of the right." you've studied this world. i've been noticing from fox in the prime time shows a whole lot of name calling, stuff that will get you in trouble on the schoolyard. here is some examples of how they were taunted. >> professional nerd. >> looked like two homeless guys. >> people that sat by themselves at recess. >> marie yov a. novitch is not a victim. she's a professional. >> by the end the hearings sounded like a therapy session or meeting with hr department,

definition of hell. >> is this the strategy, name calling? >> ad homynym because you ca't do anything about the fact bus alter them. calling the impeachment hearings boring, if you're part of an industry in which truth is conveyed as a form of ideology or entertainment, calling impeachment hearings boring is a form of saying this isn't true, it doesn't matter. >> eric trump said nobody watched. nobody was watching. many tens of millions of people consumed some part of the hearings. at least 13 million people on average were watching. they come up with these lies and spread them, say it's bogus or boring. the president is saying fake impeachment for a real political inquiry, political

ramifications. why do you think fox, in particular, is featuring this as boring? >> they'll continue to air the impeachment hearings, put things up on the screen to counter and discredit the witnesses during the hearings. so they know people will tune in. if you call them boring, say there's no there there, right? people are waiting for the big bombshell moments like during the watergate hearings. if they can convince you there's nothing new here, why should anyone follow through with impeachment and removal? >> another tactic i've noticed, this reliance on the single phone call. we keep hearing folks say it's all about single phone call. we've seen example of this week on fox of that claim. >> if this is all about the phone call, you're not going to get the money, a different staffer claiming that the hearings won't make sense to regular people. no, because they read that there's nothing wrong with the phone call. >> it's not going to be that interesting because it's about a phone call.

it's about a president doing his job. >> but it's much more about this than a phone call. read the trip, it's beenb a phone call when, in fact, it's about a month's long plot? >> a pattern of behavior and arguments that you've seen coming from the gop because they're refusing or choosing not to engage on the substance and particularly, you know, this massive deluge of revelations we've seen come forward in closed door testimonies over the last week. you've really seen this narrative being built about this month's long pressure campaign that grew more and more insidious to try to pressure the ukrainian government to try to help donald trump domestically in his political aspirations. to try to keep it narrow, to try to say it's just about this phone call when we've seen this mountain of evidence building over time, particularly over the last week. >> we have to keep repeating the

basic facts. let me show you "snl" from last night. there's a joke about mitch mcconnell having already reached a conclusion about this. here is how they portrayed him. >> that's right, and the senate has voted. acquitted. >> this matter isn't even before the senate yet. >> oh, sorry for the spoiler. just tell me when i'm supposed to say it. acquitted. >> yeah, exactly. look, the fate of the trump presidency is in mitch mcconnell's hands. this is all going to end up in the senate. you tweeted something that might be related to this. some with a bang, some with a whimper, but they invariably end. the question is how much damage they leave in their wake. >> the short answer is yes. increasingly president trump's support seems it's all about him, a policy,

not the standards of politics. ronald reagan had a very solid following but he stood for something in terms of policy. franklin roosevelt, same way. these cults, cults don't generally end well. people will say it's too much to say it's a cult. i don't think so. the further we go, it is always all about him. it's not about a policy. and, by the way, on the issue at hand, the impeachment thing, this gets down to question of did he or did he not try to bribe a foreign government? did he or did he not try to intimidate witnesses? when i say history is closing in on him, i think increasingly, people who pay attention, even people who really like him and people who perhaps have called it a cult, will say, yeah, it does look like he tried to bribe

this foreign government, it does look like he's trying to intimidate witnesses. whether or not that's enough to have a real trial in the senate or not, i have my doubts. top editor of the atlantic magazine is standing by to talk about his new issue, entitled "how to stop a civil war." we'll go live to denver to hear about a radio host fired less than 24 hours ago. hear his shocking story, next. (ernie) lost rubber duckie? (burke) you mean this one? (ernie) rubber duckie! (cookie) what about a broken cookie jar? (burke) again, cookie? (cookie) yeah. me bad. (grover) yoooooow! oh! what about monsters having accidents? i am okay by the way! (burke) depends. did you cause the accident, grover? (grover) cause an accident? maybe... (bert) how do you know all this stuff? (burke) just comes with experience. (all muppets) yup. ♪ we are farmers. ♪ bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum investment opportunities beyfirsthand, like biotech.ne because your investments deserve the full story.

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so what just happened in

denver? 710 knus in denver has some explaining to do. on saturday morning a prominent colorado lawyer, craig silverman, was hosting his usual saturday morning show. then, all of a sudden, the show stopped. management cut off the show when he was in the middle of it, and he was essentially canceled. his website for the show has now been removed. he has a day job. he loves being a lawyer, but this is intriguing. he says he was cut off for criticizing president trump. we know that salem media has pressured some other radio hosts to tow a pro-trump line. that's been the direction of the business. let's talk about what's going on in right wing radio and what happens when you try to descent. craig silverman joins me from denver. you were cut off, you believe, because he was criticizing the president? >> it's a little more complicated than that. i wrote a column expressing frustration about the things you were just speaking about. >> impeachment? >> about my colleagues to not

address this impeachment hearing. they would not address the facts and i wanted to do that. three hours every saturday, i was covering the case. i had other media opportunities. i'm an independent contrator with salem. and i took those. they were frustrated about that. i was frustrated that we couldn't talk about the facts of the impeachment case and it all came to a head as i was excoriating donald trump on my show yesterday. >> who was saying you couldn't talk about the facts of the case, about the impeachment? >> well, look, every host makes a decision about the content of their show. when you try to have a discussion, you come into words like sham, hoax, or let's talk about horowitz, huber or durham. i said that's interesting. you can get that plenty elsewhere. on my show we're going to talk about ukraine, impeachment and

the facts that the president is saying that does not add up. >> the president on twitter, of course, saying that the impeachment is fake and all of that. there has been an attempt to ignore the story, i think, among some radio hosts. we're living in a world where "the new york times" is a six banner column headline. you listen to the radio and impeachment is boring, unimportant and doesn't matter. it sounds like you were resisting the tendency to downplay the historicness of the event. >> absolutely. i'm a trial attorney, former prosecutor. i know how to put on a case. marie yovanovitch, she inspired me. she was an outstanding witness. if nobody on radio talks about it, how are the american people going to understand? >> what's that about? what do you think that sort of attempt to put on the ear muffs is all about in right wing radio? >> i think they take their cues from the president. rush limbaugh, sean hannity. they're the biggest talkers.

hue hewitt. i'm surprised they don't want to address the facts of this important and consequential matter. and then the president of the united states has indicated certain words that need to be used. every week on my show for the five-plus years it was on, i would give an award for the best call of the week. i've given it six straight weeks for the president and his perfect call. he wants hosts and american people to say it's a perfect call. and i make fun of that, because it wasn't a perfect call. it's not a hoax. it's not a sham. i'm really disturbed by words that could lead to violence like coup or civil war. come on, people. let's just analyze the facts. >> i reached out to salem radio and asked for comment, like 3:00 in the morning. i haven't heard anything back. have you heard from your former bosses? >> no. it's pretty starting while i'm talking about the association of donald trump, paul manafort,

roger stone, roy cohn. as i'm making my shows about that, the show went dark, program director came in, said you're done. i want to talk about these things and thanks for the opportunity to do it here. i'm sure i'll find another forum. >> you know, they have my email address if they want to get back to me for comment. meantime, craig, thank you so much. best of luck with what you do next. >> my pleasure. up here next on "reliable sources" jeffrey goldberg, editor of "the atlantic." his issue, how to stop a civil war. we'll talk about it next. of nowhere. those are the ones that show up and change everything.

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the american divide is a subject of this new issue of "atlantic" magazine. take a look at what's on the cover of the magazine. a brand new redesign. the real headline is at the bottom, saying "how to stop a civil war." that invoke ags is something

we've heard quite often in the trump years. to be clear, "the atlantic" doesn't think it's 1850, the decade the inaugural issue was published. the editor says this is not the 1850s, but the divide is real, there's a sense that the nation is drifting apart and it needs to be addressed. talking about this new issue and a lot more, the invocation of civil war, which we do hear quite a bit on the left and the right, there's an argument to be made that it's inappropriate to even talk this way. why did you all feel it was worth pursuing now? >> i don't think it's inappropriate at all. i mean, we did this, in part, for historical reasons. as you note we were founded in 1857, at a time of intense national fracturing, to deal with the issues causing that fracturing. abraham lincoln was one of our first subscribers. we're very mindful of the history and meaning and purpose of "the atlantic" to be the

magazine of the american idea. and so as you note correctly, we don't think it's 1861 right now. we don't even think it's the 1850s, but something has gone off the rails here. to acknowledge that is not to exacerbate it. to acknowledge it is to actually begin to deal with the underlying causes as i argue in the editor's note this is bigger than donald trump. donald trump is a symptom of a larger issue, of american disuniting, mutual contempt that's replaced mutual respect, the idea that we share a common narrative and even as you point out on this show very frequently, a common set of facts. we recruited 25 or so great writers to go at this issue from all angles, everybody from jim mattis to lin-manuel miranda. really smart pieces.

appleb ach applebaum, daniel allen from harvard. i hope people read them to understand where we are. >> an experience gap in american life that's become an empathy gap. >> right. >> what's the experience gap? >> the experience gap is this. she comes out of idaho, obviously. she lives in new york now. she's in a perfect place to understand how both sides don't understand each other. and what happens is parochialism sets in. she argues to me that new yorkers are more parochial in some ways, than people in idaho. they don't know anyone who is not like them, is the point. you begin to lose, first, a sense of what other people's lives are like and then the natural follow-through is that you begin to lose empathy with their stories and hardships and so you reduce everyone to one or two qualities that you might learn about them on, let's say, highly partisan cable news shows, on certain other

networks. and then there you are. you no longer feel like your country is their country and vice versa. and so one of the arguments in this issue is, you know, we have to begin to replace contempt with some level of understanding and some attempt to understand why people think the way they think. >> we've got to stop viewing each other as caricatures. social media warps our democracy and there are three suggestions at end of the piece, three types of reform the writers propose, number one, to reduce the frequency and intensity of public performance so people stop dunking on each other all day. >> right. >> number two, reach unverified accounts that often times are trols or bots and number three, the contagiousness of low-quality information. i wondered what you thought about that, low-quality information and how it spreads on line, the idea that the lie spreads faster than the truth. >> right, right, the lie escapes

into the atmosphere before you know it existed. we are living inside right now james madson's nightmare, the framer of the constitution, right? he was extremely worried when he was writing the constitution, working on the constitution that our cognitive capacity is we're going to be overwhelmed by the coming rise of the daily newspaper, that once a day delivery of information was too much for us and that one of the things that worked in favor of indirect democracy, representative democracy was geographic dispersal. it took time for people to get information, process information, to think about the information and then make decisions about it. now there's no time at all. we are instantly able to communicate with everyone around the world in a flash. there's no time for thought. there's no time for verification. and so it's very sensible piece is arguing that and we've talked about this on the show in the past. social media platforms, are they

merely the telephone company or do they have an obligation to keep information that's bad for individuals, society and democracy, a way to tamp that down so good information can rise? >> it's a struggle, daily struggle. whether the forums are doing enough is a daily question. "the atlantic" is out on newsstands now. >> thank you. a question i wish we didn't have to ask. can we believe anything this white house says? we'll talk about why that matters, next. ...like this. because right now when you buy one of the latest samsung phones you get one free. on that. so you can post this... ...score this... ...be there like this... ...and share all of this... ...with that. so do this, on that, with us. now, buy a samsung galaxy s10 or note 10 and get one free.

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it is times like these when the white house needs to have credibility. times like these when the president suddenly turns up at walter reed hospital, sparking rumors of his health and wondering what's really going on. it was not scheduled in advance, a source tells cnn. it surprised the press and it also, evidently, surprised the medical staff. so there are some serious questions here. trump returned home after a couple of hours. maybe the white house is telling the truth, the whole truth by saying this was just a routine checkup. just a jump-start on his annual physical. now that sounds unusual, but maybe that's the truth. maybe trump is in great shape. hopefully, that is the case. hopefully, all is well. but the white house squandered much of its credibility at the very beginning of trump's tenure and hasn't regained it by any

stretch. we can't cover these stories like it's business as usual this is not business as usual this is an administration that makes up crowds and draws squiggly lines on maps and tells you not to believe your own eyes and ears. april's press release about trump's first call of the newly elected president uf crane was inaccurate. readout that they planned to route out corruption but the rough transcript of the call showed there was no mention of corruption. now there's a fight over who was at fault for that. the point is the white house gives us reasons to distrust every day. it's not just acceptable, it is necessary. at this point it's irresponsible to take trump at his words. he gets numbers and facts and names and words wrong. he misleads the public and expects his aides to do the same thing this is all disappointing i know. as sam stine of "the daily

beast" wrote when you burn all of your credibility on petty matters, you will lose credibility on important stuff like the wellness of the commander in chief. not to put too fine of a point on it, this is why public officials shouldn't lie to you. right now, stephanie grisham says she is not lying. she keeps going on fox shows instead of briefings and told pirro trump is healthy as can be. i tweeted out a show saying this was just a routine visit to walter reed, she said thank you for getting the correct information out. it's wholly irresponsible and dangerous for the country. do you know what else is dangerous? this administration's culture of dishonesty. let's talk about that now with the panel here in new york, nicole hemmer, dan rather, abigail tracy back at the table. this situation with walter reed,

i definitely do not want to speculate. there's ridiculous conspiracy theo theories on twitter that are a bunch of bull. we have to make everything is fine but the white house makes it hard to trust. that's the problem, i think. >> absolutely. there's been an erosion in their credibility time and time again. they issue a statement that then later proves to be false. everything they say or do does require that scrutiny and that microscope. and moving forward, i think it's reasonable that journalists are, you know, putting that scrutiny on the white house. >> i think they could answer more questions and perhaps provide doctors to talk about why he's doing this annual physical early. does it remind you of past presidents? >> it does. when the watergate news was tightening on richard nixon, it leaked out he had an examination for phlebitis in his leg right at the moment when history was catching up on him, when truth was closing in on him and he had this strange phlebitis incident that they leaked out, was an

obvious effort to get sympathy. that was nixon time. with president trump, you hit it right on the head. the press secretary can't argue about take us at our word when she and the rest of the white house, including the president himself, have been so untrustworthy, so loose with the truth and opposite of the truth. you can't have it both ways. i'm reminded with lincoln's word, you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't prove all the people all of the time, which president trump has been trying to do. >> a little undercover because of all the impeachment news. issuing pardons to these war criminals. loudest champions of these pardons has been celebrating them all weekend long on fox. put up some of the headlines about wanting to see this happen. what do you make of this fox feedback loop when it comes to pardons for members of the military? >> hegseth hasn't just been

talking about this on fox news but in private meetings with the president. he is another of the president's fox news advisers who is talking to him behind the scenes. and other people have gone on fox news to appeal for pardons as well, and have gotten them. like scooter libby and other folks who have been pardoned throughout the information. it cuts out the office of the attorney. >> speaking of pardons, roger stone's fans are lobbying for a pardon for stone. one of his biggest fans is alex jones on info wars, urging info wars' viewers to call the white house switchboard. what do you make that have, nicole? >> people have recognized the best way to get the president's ear is through these platforms, through fox news and alex jones' show. you've seen that pardon pipeline happening. i think it's absolutely expected. >> roger stone's daughter was on

the tucker carlson show. >> exactly. >> asking the president right into the camera for a pardon. it's upside down world. >> fox news and info wars has become this informal platform to pitch the president on platforms. >> if i may, i hate to butt in, but this question of can the president pardon himself is a question that's not being asked nearly often enough. surprisingly, the answer is a little vague, whether the president could, indeed, pardon himself. >> let's let that sit out there for a minute and contemplate that. one other story, dan, i tha i hope doesn't get overlooked. law center obtaining these emails from steven miller, back when he would email stories to breitbart trying to get anti-immigrant headlines out there. picking up on white nationalist websites, sharing links from really racist websites and the white house is basically shrugging this off. >> they attempt to shrug it off.

at the same time they say don't pick on the president. don't say that he's racist himself, but racist is as racist does. and this business of trying to have it both ways, it worked for a while. but again, i think this is beginning to wear very thin and beginning to come back to haunt them a bit. these kinds of revelations which we didn't have for a long time come right back to, you write these kinds of things, you have to expect people will question where you stand on race. if you're a president and you have these kind of people around you, you can expect people to say you are employing racist people to implement racist policies. >> dan rather, nicole hemmer, abigail tracy, thank you all for being here. quick break and then "reliable sources" exclusive to something that matters to all of us. a new look at a survey about how to help local news survive. there's my career... my cause... and creating my dream home.

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do you value local news? let me put it this way, are you willing to pay for it? one in five americans currently subscribe in some form to news outlets. 76% do say they need local news to be informed. there are growing concerns about how to meet the information

needs of communities. so let's talk more about that. we have a sneak peek at this new report. jennifer preston is with me now, vice president of journalism at the night foundation and happened to be my cubicle mate at "the new york times" back in the day. good to see you, jennifer. >> good morning, brian. >> we talked about this for a long time, how to help local news thrive in this digital age. this new report that is officially going to come out from knight and gallup, most americans know it's important but they think they're doing better than they are. there's a lack of awareness about the perilous state of local news. how do we help people understand it? >> first thing we need to do is help people understand that local newspapers are vanishing across the country. since 2004, 1400 newspapers have disappeared. 200 counties across the country have no newspaper at all. and we know that newspapers have traditionally provided the original reporting that local

communities need to hold local officials accountable, to be informed about how they should vote. >> look at this result from the polls. 59% of those surveyed say they know that their local paper is an important source and symbol of civic pride. what efforts are under way that are inspiring to you the knight foundation is helping to fund in some cases to help restore local news? >> three great examples have just happened in the last few weeks. number one, in utah, the huntsman family won an historic ruling from the irs that allows paul huntsman to turn the salt lake tribune, 148-year-old newspaper into a nonprofit organization. that is a precedent that is going to create a future and a path forward for many newspaper owners. >> interesting. other papers may go nonprofit in that way? >> absolutely.

newsmatch.org launched november 1st. this is a matching gifts campaign for more than 200 nonprofit news organizations across the country. and what news match does, it matches donations to these nonpartisan, independent, not profit, nonprofit organizations that are filling critical gaps. >> news match.org, so you can donate to these outlets? >> absolutely. 200 outlets there to support and foundations such as knight foundation, democracy fund, the rita allen foundation will match that contribution. >> i think what you're saying is there are reasons to be optimistic or hopeful even though we all see our local papers shrinking? >> it's important for everyone to understand there's a real crisis in local journalism. most people believe that the best journalism serves

communities and what is the answer for the community to support the journalism. >> jennifer, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> great to see you. a story on it at cnn.com. after the break, another story about papers. this time about campus newspapers. two controversies recently. hear from the dean of northwestern university, the prestigious school there who says it's time for a campaign for media litteracy. yet non-addictive and gentle on the body. salonpas. it's good medicine. hisamitsu.

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those are the ones that show up and change everything. so why did this student newspaper apologize for doing journalism? the story is about this article from northern university's article. it covered a speech by jeff sessions. there were lots of protesters and the protesters were angry their photos were published by the paper and shared online. they said it was harmful to them. the paper got so much hate mail, it ended up apologizing just for

committing acts of journalism. apology went public. they slammed the decision to publish an apology. that's when the administrators of the university stepped in. the well known school medill there, and the dean wrote an article about being okay to make mistakes, to learn from mistakes. here's what he told me about what was going on on campus. >> i wanted to remind people of what journalism is. and i wanted to invite the protesters who were so vicious online to these students to engage in a conversation with us about what journalism is. and about what they can expect when they decide to mount a very public protest. they should expect to be covered. >> yes, they should. this is not just about northwestern either. harvard's legendary paper came under criticism for its coverage

of a student protest at harvard's campus. a protest against i.c.e. the crimson asked for comment from i.c.e., and that is what ticked off activists. now, the crimson's editor has issued a letter defending what they do, defending their work and the journalistic standard of requesting comment. i asked whittaker if he sees connection between these two cases. he says yes. >> it actually underscores the need for us to embark on a campaign of media literacy. i think the public is quite unaware of what journalism is, what our processes are. what it means to be balanced. the public thinks of journalism as advocacy, and many of our students, when they start, think of journalism as advocacy as well, and we quickly try to disabuse them of that notion. but the public thinks, i think in this era where so much of our media is balkanized and partisan

and very much perspective driven, the public thinks that's as it should be, and you're either with us or against us. and if you somehow turn to someone who may have an opposing opinion, then that means you are siding with them and you are against us. or again, if you are depicting images that don't present us in the best light, no matter how accurate they are, that somehow is an intrusion and a violation. we've got to work at doing a better job of educating. and it starts, maybe it starts at our campuses. it probably starts even in elementary school. we've got to do a better job of explaining to people how journalism works. we think people understand it. they actually have no idea. >> i think the dean is right about that. and i think his letter is really important. it's up on the northwestern website. clearly, these student editors make a mistake, but college newspapers are for that, labs for learning. that's what they should be.

when nationl news outlets scream about campus craziness, they're just making a bad situation worse. it's important to let students be students and learn from their mistakes and try to guide them in the right direction rather than just making fun of them and dunking on them. anyway, you can check out my full conversation with the dean on our reliable sources podcast. we talked about it in great depth and it's up on reliablesources.com. that's where our media coverage continues all the time. you can sign up for our nightly newsletter there as well. it comes out six days a week, totally free, wrapping up all the world's media news. a quick reminder here, the cnn coverage of what is a white house in crisis continues here at 8:00 p.m. eastern time. chris cuomo is anchoring this sunday night special, white house in crisis, the impeachment inquiry. we'll see you right back here this time next week.

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