those are the ones that show up and change everything. this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. today on the show, the other nation at the center of the impeachment hearings. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> ukraine. >> why does this nation stuck between east and west have such an oversized role in this white

house matter? and what do actual ukrainians think about the goings on in washington? we'll explore it all. >> also, it was an especially violent week in hong kong. fires set, universities being blockaded, protesters being fired on. what is the end game for the protesters? i will talk to the prominent hong kong activist nathan law. >> but first, here's my take. the phrase quid pro quo is usually translated as something for something. in the case of president trump's communications with ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky, it appears the quo was supposed to be a declaration of his commitment to undertake investigations into the 2016 election as well as joe and hunter biden. "the new york times" reports that a public announcement was set to be made on my cnn

program. i think i owe viewers my best understanding of what actually happened. ever since zelensky was elected president in april, my team and i have been interested to have him appearing on the show. we began the process with establishing connections with the new administration, which was cordial and efficient throughout. on september 15th, i met with zulainsky in kiev on the sidelines of a conference i was participating in. he came across as smart, energetic, and with a much sharper feel for politics than you might expect from a neophyte. it was a brief conversation, but we did discuss most of the big issues he faces. ukraine's relations with russia, the u.s., economic reform, and corruption. we also talked about whether he wanted to do the interview in english or ukrainian. i left with the inference that all was well.

zelensky seemed a bit distracted but i assumed this was because of the many challenges he faced. it's a testament to zelensky's skill that he did not let on in any way the immense pressure he was under, as we now know for months the trump white house had been mounting an intense campaign to force him to publicly announce those investigations. he had tried to resist and put them off in various ways, but ultimately decided he would have to give in, according to "the times." his team apparently concluded since he was planning an interview with me anyway, that would be the forum in which he would make the announcement, thou neither he nor any of his team ever gave us any inkling of that. my team had begun to discuss the potential logistics of the interview with his team, time and place, but the ground had already begun to shift. on september 5th, "the washington post" published an editorial, revealing it had been reliably told that trump was trying to force zelensky to investigate joe biden. on september 9th, four days

before my visit to kiev, house democrats initiated an investigation into the allegations. that same day, the intelligence community inspector general notified the house and senate intelligence committees of the whistleblower complaint. the next day, september 10th, house intelligence committees chairman adam schiff sent a letter to acting director of national intelligence joseph mcguire, demanding he turn over the complaint. and then on september 11th, aid to ukraine was unfrozen with no conditions. just imagine zelensky's dilemma. by the time i met with him in kiev, he knew the aid had been released but the backstory had not yet broken into public view. ukrainian officials i spoke to about the release of the aid at the time were delighted but a little surprised and unsure as to what had happened. zelensky and his team were probably still trying to figure out whether they should still do the interview. a few days later on september

18th and 19th, "the washington post" broke the story wide open. the interview was called off. we are, of course, still trying to get it. for more, go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. ukraine was center stage at the house impeachment hearings this week. it is also in the center geopolitically, stuck between russia to the east and europe to the west. once intimately connected with russia, ukraine is today at war with their neighbor. in 2014, russia invaded ukraine, annexed crimea. today russian-backed troops remain in eastern ukraine and kiev relies on america and europe to provide money, weapon,

and support to help in its fight against moscow. these are the key facts to grasp as you ponder president trump's phone call with ukraine's new president zelensky. to help us understand more of the geopolitics, i want to bring in phil gordon, the assistant secretary of state for european and eurasia affairs. from 2009 to 2013. in that role, he was responsible for ukraine. phil, pleasure to have you on. can you tell us, to begin with, what do you make of the charge that, to put it as some republican congressmen did, obama gave ukraine blankets but trump gave them weapons. in other words at the end of the day, trump has been far more generous in his support for the ukrainians and their struggle against the russians than obama was? >> well, it is certainly true that the trump administration started supplying a degree of weaponry, notably, javelin

anti-tank missiles that the obama administration wasn't supplying to ukraine. that's a fact. it was a policy call. i think president obama's view was that ukraine could never fight its way out of this situation. and that escalating on behalf of the ukrainians would just lead the russians to escalate more and were we really prepared to go down that route? that was a vigorous debate in the obama administration. there are many people, including vice president biden, who were on the other side of the debate, but ultimately in that sense, the trump administration provided more direct military support to ukraine. the issue now, however, is whether the trump administration then sought to use that leverage it was providing to ukraine for other purposes and was willing, this is what the whole impeachment business is about, was willing to withdraw that support that it had started to give to ukraine for political

purposes, notably, the investigation of the vice president, the former vice president and his son. >> let's talk about that piece of it. again, you were, in a sense, or the state department was overseeing all of this policy. tell us about what vice president biden was doing and whether it is fair. again, the charges that vice president biden was out there, in charge of ukraine and the ukrainian policy and he was trying to get an anti-corruption official in ukraine fired because that guy was investigating burisma, the company at which his son was a director. what's your reaction to that charge? >> my reaction is that the charge is deeply illogical, even on its face, if you really think about it. what the company in question, burisma, wasn't being investigated at the time by that prosecutor. indeed, the problem in general was that the prosecutor himself was seen as corrupt and not

pursuing corruption. what vice president biden was trying to do was get the ukrainians to be more serious about investigating corruption. and that in this particular case meant getting rid of that prosecutor who wasn't doing anything and getting one in place who would actually fight corruption. the point being where his son in that company is concerned is succeeding in that, including leveraging u.s. assistance to get the ukrainians to change prosecutors and investigation corruption, would have made it more likely that that company would be investigated rather than less likely. on the face of it, it doesn't hold up and doesn't make any sense. >> let me ask you about what you have seen and learned in terms of the way in which the state department is working in the trump administration. particularly the attack on the previous ukrainian ambassador, these attacks on these state department officials. the predcalls them never

trumpers when there's no evidence that either of them was that. what are you hearing in terms of what is that doing to the state department, to ambassadors? >> this was already a tough situation. and then on top of that, this particular ukraine case, where you see the ambassador to ukraine, yovanovitch, 30-year veteran of the foreign service, highly respected who had done hard posts. by the way, in republican and democratic administrations. i think president bush appointed her as ambassador to armenia. highly respected, well liked. fired for the apparent reason of just not willing to do the president's bidding. she came under fire in the media because rudy giuliani and the president's son, don jr., started going after her and making allegations. and next thing you know she's removed and the state department misled the public saying she was removed as schedule when it wasn't as scheduled.

she was removed early, apparently because she wasn't willing to get involved in what former national security adviser bolton called a quote/unquote drug deal, meaning these nef nefarious activities in ukraine. so that was tough. on top of that, when we finally saw the transcript of the july 25 call, we see that president trump called her bad news, the woman. he didn't even know her name. the woman was bad news and some things are going to happen to her. how should senior service people feel when they see one of their stars fired from her job, no reason given? she was told when she got back that she didn't make any mistakes, she didn't do anything wrong, but the president wasn't satisfied with her. and she had to go. i think the foreign service morale has been pretty low for understandable reasons the past three years but has gotten a boost to see some of their colleagues show that they are

nonpartisan, they're not the anti-trumpers, somehow they're just called anti-trump because they're not taking a position convenient for the president. but what they are, patriotic hard-working americans who know their brief and that's been, i think, heartening for a lot of people at state to see in the past couple weeks. >> fascinating. phil gordon, pleasure to have you on. thank you. >> thank you, fareed. >> next on "gps," with all this talk about ukraine, american airwaves have been virtually empty of actual ukrainian voices. in a moment, i will talk to two high-profile ukrainians about how their country feels about what is going on in washington. >> if you miss a show, go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my itunes podcast. e roomba i7+ witn base automatic dirt disposal and allergenlock™ bags that trap 99% of allergens, so they don't escape back into the air.

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of impeachment hearings shows the words ukraine or ukrainian were said roughly 500 times that day. it occurred to me as we were putting together this show, despite ukraine playing such a central role in this matter, we have heard from few actual ukrainians. i wanted to fix that. svitlana zalishchuk is a former journalist. mustafa nayyem is a journalist

and former member of parliament. musta mustafa, let me start with you and ask you what is your reaction to what is going on in washington? what are ukrainians thinking to the extent that you want to represent them about what they are hearing in washington? >> actually, first of all, we don't want to, in any way, interfere with what's going on in united states politics. from that aside, the support of the united states is very important for us, for a country which is in state of war with russia. i think for many ukrainians it's a very sad situation when our enemies, those who are actually looking for any chance to hurt ukraine or our relationship with the united states, they are now happy with this situation. >> svitlana, what did you think when the transcript of the conversation between president trump and president zelensky was

released? it must have surprised all of you. >> it's not helpful, i have to say. and it's not helpful because of the fact that i feel that, you know, the house is on fire. i mean, our democratic world we live in and as ukraine we're in the center of this fire. there's war going on. at the same time we feel that there is a deterioration with our strategic partner. using this context, i would like to just reit rail that, u.s. still is our strategic partner and we still need bipartisan support because what's going on in the region is, has, i would say, like very crucia impact on the development in the regional geopolitics in the regional politics in general.

and our cooperation and our coordination does matter. >> mustafa, does it strike you, you know, that ukraine, the way it's being discussed in the u.s., it has become more of a political football being used rather than a actual serious strategic conversation? >> it's not about strategic conversation, of course. it's more about ambitions and political games. we understand during the election, both sides can do many things that they won't be able to do after election. we're really sad that ukraine is in this game not as a partner but as a subject, as someone who can be, you know, used. so i think that for both sides, for united states, for ukraine, this -- you know, as you said really it's football, political football, doesn't work in our interests and for those people in ukraine who are fighting on the front line and those people

who lost their father's sons it is not a game and it's not a very helpful situation when our biggest partner, and we need this partner, we are very grateful to this partner, but this partner now is trying to use their inner gain, our war and our actually tragedy, which is in ukraine after 2014. svitlana, how do you think president zelensky comes off in all of this? i look at it, and he seems to have been very shrewd in how he was managing a very difficult situation. >> right. so, in my mind, president zelensky was acting out of the best state interests. some may think that telephone conversation was not the best diplomatic, let's say, not done in the best diplomatic way but

it's absolutely obvious that mr. zelensky was trying to insure that we have support of u.s. many things depend on this support. >> mustafa, do you think president zelensky, you know, dodged a bullet, as we say? missed a situation which could have been very embarrassing, had he been forced to announce an investigation into the bidens or burisma? >> you know, actually, we should understand that despite mr. zelensky's not so sophisticated experienced politician as mr. trump, but i think that he did many right things. first of all, he didn't do something illegal in ukraine. i mean, he didn't force our law enforcement agencies to do, in some political interests, his interests or someone else. second, that he really showed that he is open to some

cooperation if united states law enforcement agencies officially will apply for some assistance in this investigation. and the third, we should understand one thing. we understand who is mr. trump. president of the biggest democracy in the world and the biggest economy. and it's very difficult to refuse something. and, of course, we feel that there were some pressure or maybe some attempt to ask for something not maybe right things, but we saw that there was no consequences of this conversation in ukrainian policy. and for us, for a country which were under pressure of political vested interests of many politicians during all our independence years, and which in country in which politicians always used law enforcement agencies, police, prosecutor,

and secretaries against people or for their political interests. for us, it's very good sign that even in this situation, when maybe it was very easy to say something and to act something, somehow illegally, our president didn't do that. >> mustafa, svitlana, thank you very much. that was much needed perspective from ukraine. next on "gps," if you listen to the impeachment hearings this week, you might have heard the phrase crowdstrike. it's part of a conspiracy theory that has been woven around computer servers, the dnc, and of course, ukraine. we'll get to the bottom of it when we come back. of nowhere.

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now for our "what in the world" segment. one of the most mystifying aspects of president trump's infamous call with the ukrainian president is trump's reference to crowdstrike. he asked zelensky to find out what happened with this whole situation surrounding crowdstrike. just what is crowdstrike. what was the situation, and why is president trump so interested in it? to answer all that, let me bring in nina jankovicz, a fellow at the wilson center who studies disinformation and eastern

europe. nina, i have to confess, george kent was at one point asked what do you know about crowdstrike? he said honestly, the first time i heard about it is when i read the transcript of the wall. it made me feel better because i knew a little about it, vaguely, but i was surprised it occupied such a large space in donald trump's imagination. >> absolutely. >> what is crowdstrike? >> a cybersecurity firm. that's how most people know it. frankly, it blew my mind to see it come up in the transcript as well. you don't need to feel badly about that. i think donald trump, for some reason, believes in this conspiracy theory that crowdstrike, which discovered the hack on the dnc servers, the hack operation which the intelligence community says was perpetrated by russia, unanimous consent on that, they discovered this hack, and he thinks because they have a russian ceo, he believes the ceo is ukrainian, apparently. >> trump does? >> trump believes that. >> even though he is russian.

>> a russian-born american, exactly. he believes that those servers are somehow located in ukraine and this plugged into another broader conspiracy about the ukrainians colluding with the democrats to rig the 2016 election against trump, which has also been debunked. >> just to be clear, the argument is that crowdstrike, which was the firm that discovered the hacking, was actually a -- you know, part of a ukrainian plot to hack the dnc servers. and then make it look like it was the russians who had done it. >> exactly, hard to even explain because there's so many layers there. and all of this, of course, is a boon for president trump, who wants to detract from the conclusions of the intelligence community, those unanimous conclusions that came out at the end of 2016. detract from the conclusions of the mueller report, and make ukraine look bad after it -- all of these accusations about trump pressuring the ukrainian

president comes out. >> so it is such a pew kculiar theory, the theory this was not russia that hacked but the ukrainians, you know, that this company that discovered it showing you that somehow ukraine did. where does that all originate from? >> i don't know that anybody has found the smoking gun yet, but there have been report based on depositions released as part of the mueller inquiry that this came from contin teen kilimnik, and these conspiracy theories have been supported by other operators who have an interest in supporting the trump presidency because he seems to be okay with looking the other way at the real corruption that exists in ukraine. it certainly would have been a personal benefit for kilimnik and manafort to peg ukraine with these theories and undermine ukrainian reforms, democracy, et cetera, et cetera. it seems to have been planted in 2016, taken a seed in the president's mind, and kind of grown since then. it was the first thing he

mentioned to zelensky when asking for him to do him a favor. >> so, and kilimnik, this is paul manafort's associate. manafort was trump's campaign manager. is making this case, do you think it is in some way that russian disinformation is behind it? how would you describe it? >> i would hesitate to make that attribution until we either saw some communication or something on the back end that supported that theory, but certainly, it supports the russian world view, which we know president trump supports and kilimnik and manafort used to work for yanukovych. he was pro corrupt system and that kind of leads to being pro-russian. and all of this is great for russia. it undermines ukraine's zero atlantic integration. it undermines u.s. support for democracies in countries like ukraine, not just ukraine, but

all around the world. and of course, it makes us look like our own democracy and our support for democracy abroad, these values that have guided our foreign policy since the fall of the berlin wall 30 years ago, can be bought and sold out just for political dirt. >> so just to be clear, you know, in terms of understanding this backstory to crowdstrike, i think what you're saying is so manafort and his associate were working for the old corrupt ukrainian dictator. part of what happens is manafort is essentially outed by the ukrainians. trump is enraged by that. i think that's where the original animus against ukraine and ukrainians comes from. then he hears this conspiracy theory that was actually not the russians but the ukrainians who are to blame for, you know, for interfering in the 2016 election and not to help him but actually to help him. and he buys this to the extent that as you say, that's his number one ask to the ukrainian president, right? >> yeah, absolutely.

when you lay it out that way, it's clear. we know these statements against ukraine trump has been making have gone back and preceded even manafort being fired as campaign manager. during the summer of 2016, he was calling into question ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty saying maybe crimea is actually part of russia, maybe i won't support that as president, which was very worrying for ukrainians, and ambassador taylor and george kent made that point during thars testimony. of course, ukrainians had a reason to be worried about a trump presidency, because he calling into question the very existence of their nation. >> nina, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you for having me. >> next on "gps," the hong kong protesters want real democracy. it's highly unlikely the chinese government will grant it. so are we in for a forever war between the two sides? i will talk to one of the founders of the protest movement in hong kong when we come back. pharmacist-recommended e

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in the midstz of an uptuck of violence in hong kong, secretary of state pompeo on wednesday called for an end to violence. he called on his chine escounterparts to respect the one country two systems arrangement. ping is credited with coming up with the system schwas applied to hong kong when the brits handed the territory back to the chinese in 1997. it affords hong kongers more preemd and democracy than their

mainland counterparts, but their system may be cracking. joining me now is nathan law, one of hong kong's longtime protest leaders. he also founded an opposition party in hong kong is now a student at yale. you seem much too young to be leading a protest movement against the chinese government. how did this happen? >> well, five years ago, we had a huge occupation in pursuit of democracy. and by then, there were a group of students that took lead of the protest. i'm one of them. and i think it is important to remind us hong kongers and the world that the democracy and autonomy are the promises that the beijing government made in the '80s and we're only humbling asking them to fulfill their promises. i think it is all our responsibility, and i don't think in hong kong particularly the current movement we have any deficiency in terms of age or education that we're having a huge consensus of fighting for

what we deserve. >> and explain the demands. they remain those five demands, and the most important one of them is democracy. you want one man, one vote in hong kong. >> yes, the five demands of the current movement have been very consistent. and one of them is fighting for democracy for hong kong because for now, our chief executive in our legislature are locked and elected by democratic election. >> let me ask you this. most people look at it and say the chinese government is not going to simply allow democracy in hong kong because then that will have repercussions for mainland china. but you guys say you won't stop protesting. how does this end? >> well, first of all, i don't think hong kong people are fighting this battle alone. we have seen bipartisan huge support from the u.s., and all around the world. because in the '80s when china signed the british joint

declaration with the british government, it was an international treaty and a lot of other countries recognize it. and the global community has an obligation in terms of monitoring its implementation and most importantly, hong kong is at the forefront of fighting global fights that we are stop paying the revival of totalitarianism. >> do you have support from people of hong kong? hong kong has businessmen. they're losing money. hong kong is in recession. people are fleeing. do you have support from people in hong kong? or is that waning? >> well, if you look at the latest rating, which the rating has been dropping drastically since the protest, the latest disapproval rate of carrie lam is 71%, such astonishing figure. if you look at the demands of the people, 18% of people supporting setting up of independent inquiry

commission -- >> what percentage support democracy? >> 82%. so this is a huge consensus from the mass public of hong kong. >> what are you going to do? you're a student at yale. are you going to go back? when you get back, will you get arrested? what do you expect? >> hong kong is my hometown. i defaulted my freprevious year for fighting for democracy and i will be back in hong kong to stand with my fellows and work together until hong kong is another great city with democracy and with respect to the human dignity. >> nathan law, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. up next, hopefully you're rececaling everything you can. maybe you drive a prius or a tesla. perhaps you have solar panels on your house. if you think you're still not doing enough, my next guest will put your mind at ease. le libre 14 day system just scan the sensor with your reader,

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now just 29.98. ♪ many believe that to save the world, we must make radical changes. stop eating meat, stop flying, stop driving, stop using air conditioni conditioning. in other words, stop doing much of what makes us modern. my next guest is here to tell us that's all wrong. andr andrew mcafee is a repeat guest on "gps." his new book is more from less, the surprising story of how we

prosper using fewer resources and what happens next. andrew, explain the thesis of your book briefly. >> briefly, i wrote the book because in america, we have turned this really important corner. our economy continues to grow, our population continues to grow. but year after year now, we actually take fewer resources from the earth. the total emount of steel, copper, tin, water that america consumes is going down year after year. so we finally decoupled economic growth and prosperity growth from taking stuff from the earth. it's never happened before. i think it's kind of an important transition. >> you see it, alan greenspan used to talk, the former fed chairman, if you weighed the economy, the goods, it's getting lighter and lighter. in other words, what we produce is more and more services, ideas, concepts rather than actual physical heavy stuff. >> exactly, but we are still a manufacturing powerhouse. a lot of people overlook that. our manufacturing output is going up, but all the metals and minerals we consume degenerate

all that, all those products, that's now going down over time. >> now, what do you say to people like there's another book out at m.i.t., who says yes, we're using less material, but we're using way more energy. that if you look at the amount of energy it takes to, for example, revolutionize agriculture, it's now 100 times more productive than 100 years ago, but you're using 90 times more energy to get that produce. >> and smil is absolutely right if you look around the world, energy use continues to increase very quickly, especially as low-income countries are becoming more prosperous. what's weird is total energy consumption in america has been flat for about a decade. we're at the point of decoupling total energy use from our economic growth. i'm offering a public bet to professor smil or anybody else,

i think america will use less energy in ten years than it does today, no matter how big the economy gets. >> what is the consequence? if you're right, whatdize that mean? >> we don't have to contemplate not growing anymore or voluntarily reducing consumption. we can continue to grow while taking better care of the planet. i think low-income countries are going to get to that point of peak stuff and start decreasing much sooner than we did because they have access to much more powerful technologies. there's no way that bangladeshi are going to be staring >> but we can afford to do this kind of highly efficient manufacturing with lots of software and things. can poor countries do it? in other words, do we have time for everyone together as rich as america and then start decoupling of this dematerialization, as you call it? >> the only reason i'm not

confident we have time is because of global warming, which is real and bad and we're not taking action on it. greenhouse gases are just a form of air pollution. i don't mean just because they're easy, but they're not mysterious. as you know, in the rich world, we have had major success at reducing pollution levels. we know the playbook about reducing pollution. >> don't you think the solution lies in some kind of virtual restraint and use less stuff, use less energy? think instead of big technological breakthroughs that make it possible for us to grow and be good at the same time. >> good and small small technological breakthroughs, everything from the cell phone to everything we can not accumulate. smartphones will take advantage

of what technology offers and will be able to improve both the human condition and the state of nature. we're already doing that in the rich world. it's time to spread that as quickly as possible instead of becoming voluntarily poor or inflicting poverty. i always go back to what endira ghandi said in the '70s. she said poverty is clear. let's get out of the poverty business. >> great to have you. >> always a treat. we'll be right back. forget about vacuuming for months. the roomba i7+ with clean base automatic dirt disposal and allergenlock™ bags that trap 99% of allergens, so they don't escape back into the air. if it's not from irobot, it's not a roomba™

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the things that come out of nowhere d change everything. a new report from the european commission warns that subdued growth is ahead as traditional economic drivers like germany stagnate. but a group of eastern european countries once hindered by social communism is now outlasting the rest of the continent. with eight countries with 3% growth this year, all but two

were part of the eastern bloc. it brings me to my question this week. which of the european union's post-communist members has the most booming economy according to eu projections? estonia, poland, romaine ya or hungry. the answer is hungry. poland and romaine ya follow at 4.1%. germany grew at .4%, making it the slowest growing economy. consumption could drive the european economy forward if it continues to grow. hungary and poland have been demanding a greater voice in eu governance as well. expect a clash. those are also the only two european states to ever face

censure from the eu. let's hope the european union never has to choose between the value of these economies and its core liberal values. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. raise. to treat very high triglycerides, discover the science of prescription vascepa. proven in multiple clinical trials, vascepa, along with diet, is the only prescription epa treatment, approved by the fda to lower very high triglycerides by 33%, without raising bad cholesterol. look. it's clear. there's only one prescription epa vascepa. vascepa is not right for everyone. do not take vascepa if you are allergic to icosapent ethyl or any inactive ingredient in vascepa. tell your doctor if you are allergic to fish or shellfish, have liver problems or other medical conditions and about

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