terrific baiter and he is somebody who really needed to tell people and try to this evening and i think with some success that even though he's young and only been a mayor, et cetera, et cetera, that he has what he calls the right kind of experience to lead him to become president of the united states. and he also tried to compare his experiences as a gay american to african-americans when he talked about when he was asked about his inability so far to appeal to black voters and said, you know, i know what it's like to live in a country that sometimes you don't recognize as your own. i butte buttigieg had a good night. >> you heard kamala try to take it to him, in a gentle way. i don't think it was the fireworks she reserved for tulsi gabbard. she can bring the obama coalition to bear in 2020 in a

way that pete buttigieg hasn't been able to. he was in south carolina, a lot of the crowds he gathers are white. folks are seeing as achilles heal. biden seemed to do well throughout most of the debate, a b or whatever, and then stumbled near the end of the debate on this very issue. he's doing well with black voters. he seemed to be feeling himself a little bit in terms of that. support said he had gotten the support of the only black woman to be elected to the senate. he meant carol moseley brown who of course is not the only one. she's the first one. >> he meant to say first. >> he meant to stay first and said only and kamala was like what about me? >> awkward. it was very awkward. >> i have to say i think i'm having some sort of impeachment effect. i'm just like where's devin

nunes? it was in many ways the most low key. it got a little bit more animated at the end. and i don't think it's going to change a whole lot. i do think that kamala harris had a very good night. i thought she was very energetic. she was very engaged and her message was much clearer than it's been in some past debates and she leaned into some issues that are, you know, on child care, on the situation facing women of color in this country and so on. elizabeth warren had a very good debate, i thought. she chose some spots to introduce biography which i think always helps her take some of that sheen of the harvard professor off of herself. and she was right on her message. as to buttigieg, i thought he was going to be under assault all night. he's coming off -- in this business you have two good polls has he's had in iowa and new hampshire and you become -- i

thought he was going to be gordon sondland up there tonight just to go back to the impeachment, just that he was going to be under fire all night. he did come under fire a bit at the end of the debate. he got off this one line, there's more than one hundred years of washington experience on this stage and look where we are. that was a tough shot on the field and he did distinguish himself as someone who comes from the middle of the country and doesn't have the same experience. it's one of the things that's animating him in these early states. >> i was heavily influenced by watching the impeachment hearings all day. it made tonight seem a little flatter i think. took some of the emotional drama out of the evening. but there was something else that came out in the contrast. i think watching the last few days of these impeachment hearings has made you very, very aware that among democrats, there are two lanes. it's not just the centrists versus the liberals. it's the people that put the

emphasis on healing and unifying the country versus those who want to fight and have a revolution. and i think you biden and buttigieg and klobuchar in the first group and warren and sanders in the other group. personally after the impeachment hearings, i'm looking for a healer first. i'm more drawn to that. i think people like van represent that kind of politics as well. and i think it makes warren -- it increases the danger that she's going to seem -- she has a plan for everything. she's going to throw everything out, start all over again. it seems both impractical, but there's a hectoring quality there that i think reminds you of the worst aspects of impeachment. >> you just got dan booted out. >> two things, one, the last time you saw someone aseicend e, and she got dog piled.

pete, they were throwing marshmallows at him until the end. tulsi went after him. you would have expected when you got somebody who came out of literally nowhere and is just tearing past everybody that they would have turned and fired on the guy. i think he's hard to hit. i think he's such a good debater. i think people are a little bit afraid to engage him that way. klobuchar tried a little bit, came up short. tulsi got there a little bit. pete did very, very well. i thought warren looked a little more mortal, a little bit more mortal. maybe we're just used to her being so awesome. this was the first time though that women outnumbered men in a debate. you had four women on stage, four moderators, six men. so, in that regard, it was a moment of history. but i thought pete did very well. i thought he was going to get beat up, and he didn't. >> i love being able to hear them talk about pay and parental lead and a follow up about paid parental lead. i thought the women centered a

lot of questions even when they didn't naturally go there. that was exciting to see. and i think the women had a great debate tonight. kamala harris had a stand out performance. she's written right back in tonight. amy klobuchar really shown tonight. and elizabeth warren did wonderful as elizabeth warren always does wonderfully. i didn't hear hectoring. i heard people that are really understanding that people are suffering under the systems we have in place. i don't think she takes as revolutionary a tone as bernie sanders does. that's a nice distinction for the two of them who are so similar on so many policies. biden i thought was dull the first half and the second half was incomprehensible. he completely whiffed on a question about sexual harassment by talking about campus violence and saying we had to punch away and punch away and punch away at it so much so that the audience laughed at him. then he fumbled more and more on

race and the debate ended. >> i thought a good debate. i liked the issues that we talked about. i like when we get into good policy discussions, parental leave, talk about affordable housing. i don't think it moved the ball much. i think there is exhaustion with impeachment going on today. i'm not sure how many people stayed tuned in to the debate. i thought it was fascinating on the policy piece that bernie sanders is the only one left on the stage that's for medicare for all. all we did in these debates was talk about medicare for all. elizabeth warren has moved off it. i think what people realize as we're getting closer to election time, people are zeroing in, talking about the issues that matter to the american public. they didn't go after each other because the voters don't like that and they haven't liked that. those that have done it have done it at their peril. we're getting close to the first

contest. we have three weeks to go in december and then it's christmas and then it's showtime. i don't think the ball moved much tonight. i thought amy klobuchar, she did a great job. she looked human, she was funny. an exhausting day for everyone in the country. she was great. >> i want to play exchange between senator harris and mayor pete buttigieg on race. let's watch. >> for too long i think candidates have taken for granted the constituencies that have been the backbone of the democratic party and have over looked those constituencies. and have, you know, they show up when it's close to election time and show up in a black church and want to get the vote. but just having been there -- >> while i do not have the experience of ever having been discriminated against because of the color of my kin, i do have the experience of sometimes feeling like a stranger in my own country, turning on the news

and seeing my own rights come up for debates and seeing my rights expanded by a coalition of people like me and people not at all like me working side by side, shoulder to shoulder, making it possible for me to be standing here wearing this wedding ring in a way that couldn't have happened two elections ago lets me know just how deep my obligation is to help those whose rights are on the line every day even if they are nothing like me in their experience. >> how do you think that goes? >> look, i think that's as good as he can do. it's important that he make the point. the reality is he has 25% black folks in his city and doesn't have a lot of black support in his city. he hasn't been able to make that connection. that said, you can see it pains him he's not making that connection. there was beauty in what he said. but honestly he wouldn't have to talk that way if he had the support that somebody his age should have with black peers.

>> he gave an answer he clearly considered and he knew this question was coming. this is a big question about his candidacy. he's now ahead of a poll in iowa and new hampshire. what happens when he goes to a state that's 65% african mesh. >> he's in his mid-30s. he's not somebody from a different generation. he's in the most diverse generation in the history of america in the most diverse country of the world. >> in the diverse city. that's the thing. if you add african-americans and latinos and there seems to be a distance that he has between, you know, himself in that community. it's very puzzling. you heard kamala there try to make this point of okay you got your douglas plan now, but what have you done in the past for this community? where have you been all this time? it's very puzzling that he's lived this life. he was at harvard.

harvard has diversity there. he was in the military. military's fairly diverse. and the idea that he comes at this point, 37 years old and doesn't really seem to be very familiar with a diverse set of people, i think it's puzzling and it's off putting. >> it was interesting. he did quote scripture somewhere i think in that answer. i think that's part of what he may be hoping will be helpful -- >> like a bridge. >> yeah, but i think it was transparent. i think people know that is a strategy he's using. >> but there's beauty in his answer and beauty in him. it's weird. >> he also shows more growth, more potential for growth than most of the other candidates. i agree he's not there yet, but given the fact he's trying hard. he's clearly trying and given that he does, he's naturally eloquent. >> i think from a purely political analyst stand .point, the idea we have a nominee that doesn't excite the base, that is

a major concern. i liked his answer. i thought it was a good, honest, thoughtful answer. but the strategist in me just needs to see those numbers move. if we were looking at the other side, if we had a john casic or jeb bush, all we would talk about was how they couldn't excite the base. >> joe biden is doing very well with african-american voters i think because of his connection to barack obama. none of the other candidates are doing particularly well, even the candidates of color are not doing very well in that community. so, you know, i think this is an open question. >> do you think if, you know, you have iowa/new hampshire, if buttigieg continues to lean in the polls there, does very well there, does that start to, you know, tip the scales in south carolina at all or is that -- >> no. he's going to have to have a much better answer than he gave

tonight. iowa and new hampshire are very white states. you move to nevada, south carolina, then you've got march 3rd, 16 contests. some of those states in the south are 50% plus african-american. so, you can win iowa and new hampshire. but the nominee the democratic party has got to be mobilize and energize communities of color. if you can't do it, you're not going to be the nominee of the democratic party. >> speaking of joe biden he's got the problem with. both of them are running as moderate candidates. he's got to figure out a way to peel voters from joe biden in those states. i don't see him being able to really do that because of one of the bad things about joe biden is he's been around forever and one of the good things about joe biden, particularly with the african-american community, is that he's been around forever. >> and he is beloved in the african-american community. you talk to the leaders of the

cbc, cedric richmond and other folks, they will walk through fire for joe biden. >> the older african-americans love biden but the younger ones love bernie. bernie is not going anywhere. i think he's doing very well with younger voters who actually are the reverse of being inspired by biden. >> we're going to take a quick note. next debate thursday december 19th, live from los angeles. cnn's coverage from inside the debate hall will begin at 8:00 p.m. next tonight there is plenty more on this debate. we are expecting to talk to pete buttigieg shortly and more candidates throughout the night. we'll hear from voters in iowa and the impeachment testimony as our late 360 coverage continues. ♪ a wealth of information. a wealth of perspective. ♪

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♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment. talking tonight about the democratic debate and impeachment. his testimony, everyone was in the loop for ambassador gordon sondland. the president's take, it's over, the testimony clears me according to president trump. right off the top, the subject came up in atlanta. >> how did ambassador sondland get there? this is not a man who had any

qualifications except one. he wrote a check for a million dollars. and that tells us about what's happening in washington. the corruption, how money buys its way into washington. you know, i raised this months ago about the whole notion that d donors think they're going to get ambassadorships on the other side. i'm taking a pledge. anyone who wants to give me a big donation, don't ask to be an ambassador because i'm not going to have that happen. >> back with our folks. she seemed fine tonight in terms of where she went. >> see, i disagreed. i thought last debate was a bad debate for her. she seemed rattled on the medicare for all thing, not just during the debate, when she sat there with us after the debate. there were a series of setbacks after that. i thought she seemed comfortable tonight. the thing about the answer she just gave is she did what you always want a candidate to do if

you're working for a candidate is she answered the question but then defaulted to her main message which is the corrupting influence of money. and in fact gordon sondland is kind of the personification of that. he got the job because he gave a million dollars to the inauguration of donald trump, and he ended up in the middle of all of this. so, i thought it was a clever way to segue back to message. >> what was interesting to me was bernie sanders had a warning for every candidate out there. he said we cannot simply be consumed by donald trump or we will lose this election. we have to be about other things too. i think he's right even though we're all consumed by donald trump. we're not running. i think he was telling his fellow democrats we can talk about this and kamala said there's a criminal in the white house and all that, but let's get on with it because we have to show voters something else. >> one thing i thought was interesting, you had corey booker taking on elizabeth warren in a way i hadn't seen him do before where he said it's

great to talk about taxing people and that's good but we've got to talk about opportunity, entrepreneurship, and growth. if you're trying to get african-american support which elizabeth warren needs, she might want to take a note from corey booker on that because the african-american community is very interested in economics. rich black folks vote the same as poor black folks. we are entrepreneurial as a community. i haven't heard people talk about the hustle, that drive. and corey booker talked about it for the first time and did it challenging elizabeth warren on it. >> i love how cheerful that disagreement was. i thought it was a nice way to open the debate. and corey booker had an excellent night. as someone who might not make it to the next one. >> the history of corey booker is he does well in every debate and it never shows up in the

polls. he hasn't qualified for the december debate. >> we're missing julian castro who we're used to having good debates. >> how quickly does this start to sloth off. >> i think 7 have qualified so far for the next debate. i give the dnc credit. they're doing the right thing. these 10-person debates, there's not a lot of impactment we've got to get them smaller. i think the big winner tonight was mayor pete because everybody talked all day how everybody was going to go after him. if you're the leader in iowa, you're coming out of the debate and you're not going to have another debate for a month. >> i'll tell you another thing about the impeachment, there are a lot of people on the stage tied to their desk in washington for the month of january. every senator is going to be required to be at their desks when they're going to be want to

be in iowa and new hampshire. i think if elizabeth warren can survive that, bernie sanders can survive that, but amy klobuchar, corey booker. >> they can't speak. >> they have to be there every day six days a week. >> kamala can't speak? >> no. >> so, there's no upshot. it's a viral moment. >> they can submit questions to the chief justice toys to be asked. >> that's terrible. >> and mcconnell is in charge. mitch mcconnell is in charge. >> and they can speak afterwards. >> you can have a cnn debate. >> no, mitch mcconnell is going to drag this out. >> that's going to be six days a week. >> yes. >> well, look, i did not know that. i'm glad to be educated because i was thinking that kamala harris, you put her in that senate context, let her be that prosecutor, she does awesome, but that's not how it works. >> just remember the democratic senators call witnesses. they can have debates about the

witnesses. there is a lot that the democrats in the senate can do in the impeachment hearings. >> and the cameras are in there. >> the cameras are in there. >> yeah. >> they can debate. >> biden talked about the impeachment hearings tonight. let's play that. >> i learned something about these impeachment trials. i learned number one, that donald trump doesn't want me to be the nominee. that's pretty clear. he held up aid to make sure that -- while at the same time innocent people are getting killed by russian soldiers. secondly, i found out that vladimir putin doesn't want me to be president. i've learned a lot about these things from early on from the hearings that are being held. >> yeah, i mean he started off fine. i think i gave him a b and he probably descended to a d near the end when he was talking about african-american voters. what's that? >> he stumbles. >> he makes those stumbles. the longer it goes on.

>> i thought he did really -- >> on policy, he did really well. >> if you take away the last stumbles, if i'm bloomberg and i'm watching, i say to myself you've got biden do pretty well, pete doing pretty well. where is the room for the moderate to come in. then biden blows four tires in the last ten minutes. if you're bloomberg you start looking. >> or deval patrick. >> or deval patrick. you say how many times can biden do that and survive? >> this is akin to the booker point, biden, i wouldn't say he was a house of fire in any of the debates that we've been to. and yet he comes -- kind of bumps along, kind of mr mr. magooing his way through this. you keep worrying he's going to hit a wall but he's moving forward. >> he is. >> so i think it's -- it may be, you know, obviously he's losing some altitude in iowa, new

hampshire, that should be concerning to him. but if he can survive those states because of his strong support in the african-american community and because he has a cultural kinship with working class whites, non-college whites, you know, he has a play here. >> by the way, i've never heard mr. magoo turned into a verb. >> well played. >> let's take a quick break. if you don't know what porky pigging is, look at porky pig. the debate is over. we'll hear from the candidates next.

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democratic debate in atlanta has wrapped up. the candidates and surrogates are working the spin room. they're making their way to the cameras. we'll be hearing from a number of them shortly. back with our own political luminaries. there you see the spin room. i love they call it the spin room. the most honest room in politics. >> well, spin is so old. it's so sort of -- now it's -- >> the yes room. >> in the trump era spin is ridiculous to think about. >> we were talking about during

the break in terms of deval patrick or bloomberg, what is the play they see? i would love to hear david on this. >> from my point of view, we have two extraordinary progressives in warren and in bernie. we still don't have an extraordinary moderate. you see pete trying to get there. klobuchar has signs of it sometimes. biden still, he's beloved but not doing it. there's still room for somebody to do what you were talking about earlier. you want somebody who can fix the system but also heal the nation. we got the progressive right now. they're going to fix it. they're going to fix it. they don't seem very healing. the healers don't seem like they can fix it. i think deval patrick is a person that could fix the system and heal the nation. >> full disclosure, i worked with him in his governor's race in 2006. he started off at 3% in

massachusetts, a state that is overwhelmingly white and he was not the choice obviously of the political establishment there and he went town to town and he built a movement and he stormed that thing and he won the primary going away. he's a very charismatic person. he is a healing figure. there are very similar elements to his message and you've heard from buttigieg, the message that has lifted buttigieg. but it is very late. it is very late. he would have to do very well in new hampshire. he's from the neighboring state. it's possible. but i think the candidates who are in it have a toe hold there. if he did well in new hampshire, he would be in a position to go to south carolina where 60% of the electorate is african-american. >> what's the scenario in new hampshire. >> how would he win there? >> yeah. >> i think he would have appeal

in the southern boston market to start. i think he is a moderate. and i think that message has currency in new hampshire. now, he'll be competing with biden. he'll be competing with buttigieg and if buttigieg wins in iowa, he'll have some momentum. and in terms of familiarity, warren is from massachusetts. sanders is from vermont. so is david gurgen, so i should yield. >> i've known deval for a long time and admired him as governor. he was very good. i think one of the challenges he has, he's rather quiet. he doesn't have great spark. but he's very likable. you have faith and trust in him. whether he can galvanize and move -- he's got to move things quickly. >> that's the thing. >> that's an issue. and part of his problem is, look, he comes out of the corporate community. he's been a general counsel of a

number of corporations. he works the bain capital, a company that when i was working for president obama in 2012 we helped make famous. and i'm sure that would -- that might happen again in these democratic primaries. he runs a social impact there. >> exactly. >> so, it's different. >> and he's very warm and compelling and he seems humble. sort of translates i think on tv in a way that could do him good. i think the issue is it's so late. i think you talk to people in his circle -- >> and the money thing. >> and the money thing. >> that's a problem. >> how does he get on the debate stage and elevate his name id at this point. >> nationwide, how well known -- >> he's not very well known at all. >> outside the northeast and people who live and breathe politics, nobody knows deval. i think bloomberg is far better known. >> there's no question. but bloomberg has a couple billion dollars. >> he was mayor of new york. >> sure. >> let me make one point too and

i think this is important for the folks getting in late. everybody looked at this race, including myself, in january, february, and march and gave decisions to get in or not get in. i give credit to the candidates who did decide to get in and they've spent the last several months raising money, going door to door. there is a feeling you didn't want to get in back then, there might be democrats wining and complaining like we love to do. >> it's not the voters who are saying that. >> this is exactly right. >> the polls are very clear. people are more satisfied with their choices now than they were in 2016 -- 2008. it's the donor class. >> they all got better because they did the work for 11 months. we watched these candidates pretty much to a person improve as they talked to voters all over the country. i think deval patrick was probably listening to his sort of rich donor friends, maybe folks who were in the obama circle and listening to sort of

a chattering class, democratic strategists who look at biden and say maybe he's a little weak. i actually think biden is underrated. i think he's stronger than people give him credit for. >> didn't you just give him a d? >> i did give him a d. i gave him a d in the last half. >> i think it's also true the democrats are going to be very much in search of somebody on that ticket to be a person of color. it's either going to be number one or number two. they cannot nominate two white guys. and i think deval would be very, very good there. >> the woman who is almost certainly the best, has the best chance to be the nominee is elizabeth warren. she's from massachusetts. >> i do see it differently. i know that it may be in the numbers, everybody feels great, everybody feels calm. i see a lot of people saying i don't know who can beat trump. i like the -- i like my person.

my person's great. but i don't know if my person can beat trump. and i think that's why there is -- i don't think it's just a donor class. i think there's a hole in the middle of doughnut here, and if i were deval patrick my question would be can i sit on my couch november 2020 and possibly see trump reelected and feel like i did everything i could. i don't begrudge anybody jumping in late. >> he made a firm decision not to do this. >> if you look at the democratic polling, the number one qualification is somebody who can beat trump. if you listen to barack obama, was that last week? >> mm-hm. >> barack obama made that point basically saying you have to think about whether people want massive upheaval right now or whether they don't want massive upheaval right now. because after four years of donald trump, are they going to want huge change again or are they going to want somebody who offers them stability and calm?

and that's a question i think all these candidates are thinking of themselves saying well, okay, i can beat donald trump. you see elizabeth warren saying that more and more, that she's the candidate who can beat donald trump. when it comes to the kind of stability, she's talking about big change. a lot of voters want it. but a lot of democrats just want to win. >> our chief political correspondent dana bash is with senator klobuchar. >> thanks anderson and thank you senator for coming by here in the spin room. we were just talking about how you felt overall about the debate. you mentioned there are some differences, some stark differences between you and the other candidates that didn't necessarily come out. how so? >> well, first of all, i have bold ideas too. they don't have a monopoly on those ideas. i would have liked to debate my colleagues, senator warren and senator sanders, more extensively on some of these ideas they have.

i think we need to match our education system with our economy. and right now when they're saying free college for rich kids, which they are, i don't think that's going to make sense for americans. so, when i talked about winning big, i meant winning in the middle of the country. those states like pennsylvania and wisconsin and michigan and iowa and ohio and the states that i have actually been to and focused on and made it very clear that we're going to build a blue wall around those states and make donald trump pay for it. so, i would like to have seen more of the back and forth but overall i thought it was a good debate. it sure covered a lot of issues. >> so, i want to play for our viewers one of the moments where you were asked about comments that you made on cnn to jake tapper about mayor pete buttigieg. >> senator klobuchar, you said this of mayor buttigieg, quote, of the women on the stage, do i think that we would be standing on that stage if we had the experience he had? no, i don't. maybe we're held to a different

standard. what did you mean by that? >> first of all, i made very clear i think that pete is qualified to be up on this stage, and i am honored to be standing next to him. but what i said was true. women are held to a higher standard. otherwise, we could play a game called name your favorite woman president which we can't do because it has all been men. and all vice presidents have been men. >> i think a woman is qualified to be a president. if you think the woman is the most qualified, you should vote for them. >> you were ready for that one. >> yeah. well, part of this was i've made very clear i think he's qualified. i told jake that when we had this discussion, but i think i'm more qualified. and that was the argument we had a bit and i hope we're going to have more discussion about it because he is talking about a lot of great things. that is clear. but i think the fact that i have actually won statewide, he did

not. he lost his statewide election. he did not win the suburbs and rural areas we need if we're going to win big and not just take back the white house but send mitch mcconnell packing. >> that was a playing nice moment. towards the end of the debate, you and mayor buttigieg really kind of went at it on the question of experience. >> yes. >> and you said to him experience matters, and his retorte to you was washington experience isn't the only experience. >> okay. so, first of all, i have had the local experience like he has. i've managed a major agency and a major county. and i think that is really good hands on experience to have that management experience. but i go beyond that because i have shown an ability to actually get through the gridlock of washington. i passed over 100 bills where i'm the lead democrat. i think that's going to matter to voters when you have a president that has made all these promises to them about i'm going to bring pharmaceutical

prices down and do something about infrastructure and help the farmers and he hasn't done it. >> but he does -- the point he is making is that the antiwashington fervor that ushered in donald trump is still alive and well. and it's not that usual faor a senator to be elected. barack obama, john f. kennedy are the modern day exceptions. >> if you think i look like a normal president, i don't because there's never been a woman president. >> fair. >> the second thing is i'm from the middle of the country. he and i are the only ones on the stage from the middle of the country. and the third thing is i've had his local government experience. i think it's really important. but i have more to offer than that. >> what do you think voters looking at this and the question of experience really take away from this given where we see the polls right now? >> well, i think that they are just getting to know some of the candidates up there including

myself. and what i'm excited about is since that last debate, we have doubled our support in iowa. we're doubling our number of offices. we're adding staff while some candidates are closing down offices. we're adding them and we're doing the same in new hampshire. so, this is a big moment for me and my point out there when i was going back a little bit with tom steyer who i respect but he's got a billion dollars to put in this race, is i need peoples' help at amyklobuchar.com. mine is a grass roots fuelled campaign. >> and that grass roots fuelled campaign got a big boost after the last debate when you were really aggressive when it came to the differences between your ideas and your senate colleagues. you had a different tactic this time. >> actually i tried. i had a lot of points i wanted to make, again, on medicare for all. and as i said, just a few minutes ago, chi couldn't stay out there, her fight is not just

with me. her fight is with the new governor of kentucky. her fight is with a lot of those members that got elected and brought nancy pelosi in as speaker because they want to expand on the affordable care act, not trash it. they want to make sure that we're not kicking people off their insurance for pre-existing conditions. they want to do something about pharma prices. their positions are in line with me. >> okay. senator thank you so much. we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thanks very much. coming upg more candidates shortly. mayor pete buttigieg making his way to our cameras. also the other major story of the day, explosive testimony from gordon sondland. [ "turn around, look at me" -the vogues ] ♪ there is someone ♪ walking behind you ♪ turn around ♪ look at me ♪ there is someone

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spinners are spinning tonight in atlanta. the democratic candidates are talking. we're waiting for mayor pete buttigieg to make his way to dana bash. here is bernie sanders talking about president obama's remarks. >> senator sanders, you describe your campaign including your plans for medicare for all as a political revolution. >> yes. >> president obama explicitly

said the country is less revolutionary than it is interested in improvement. the average american doesn't think we have to tear down the system and remake it. is president obama wrong? >> no, he's right. but we have to do what the american people want. and the american people understand today that the current health care system is not only cruel, it is dysfunctional. >> it's -- >> that's the proble. the american people don't -- the american people do not support the idea of being forced into a public -- there's a lot of enthusiasm for medicare, opt-in for medicare option. there's not a lot of enthusiasm for forcing people and noting give them a choice. and bernie believes what he believes. and one of the reasons he's popular is that he doesn't change. he has been consistent in his principles over half a century or whatever in politics. and he says -- and he's

basically unmoveable on that. this is what president obama was talking about. that's not where the country is. and if you try and force those -- >> but you've got to give bernie his credit. this party has been transformed by the presence of bernie sanders. the stuff we were talking about, the public option, that was considered radical in the obama era when we were trying to -- this stuff we're talking about now seems so modern and normal. why? because bernie sanders made the case for medicare for all. i think he's done a great service to the country and to the party. i agree with you it's a bridge too far for the overall process. but i think we sometimes forget he has given courage to democrats across the board on a bunch of issues because he's been willing to take the flag. >> clearly something is working for him. he went over his 4000000th donor yesterday. >> spoken like a guy who used to raise money. >> listen, i think people have

realized the primary process, when you explain to them you can lose your own private insurance, it drops dramatically. so, the nominee of the party has to convince your party? people realize that. we own that issue as democrats. people want to know how are you going to reduce my prescription drug costs. we as democrats have to stay focused on that issue. when you get off here on the medicare for all, it hurts us. i think that's why i see today bernie is the only one left on that stage that's medicare for all. >> i think elizabeth warren would dispute you on that. she has a transitional plan that she says will lead to medicare for all. >> if you're president, you do it your first two years in office. >> she's saying what the others are saying, which is if we implement this plan, people will so appreciate the option, that it will grow. >> that's why biden is going after her on this, calling her

on elitist of all things, saying you're going to choose for people what kind of health care they can have? i mean that was the charge against barack obama's health care plan, which was, you know, if you like your health care, you can keep it. >> i think the thing about obama is a lot of people feel like obama is old news, and he didn't go far enough. he didn't have enough fight in him and, you know, he can obviously criticize warren at this point, criticize bernie for going too far, but a lot of people think that -- [ overlapping voices ] >> it's interesting to me that he had the option when he was given this question. he very carefully side stepped barack obama. the reason for it? barack obama is by far the most popular democrat in the country. >> i mean among the progressives, and there are people in the democratic party who want to fight. they're not interested in healing. >> look, when i was working for

the president, we were trying to implement the affordable care act. there was tremendous pressure from the left, including bernie, some people saying, you shouldn't move forward with the affordable care act unless it has a public option. this is not a new debate. >> right. >> this is not a new debate. >> i think the debate needs to start from farther along than it did last time, and that's why i think progressives are not as concerned about whether bernie is still entirely for medicare for all and whether warren is entirely for medicare for all because if we start with the public option, we're going to wind up with the aca, which we already have. if we start farther to the left, we might end up covering more people and getting more than we did last time we had this fight. >> let me just say as someone who was there, the fact that we have the aca is nothing short of a miracle. >> agree. >> i know how hard it was. i absolutely understand how difficult that was to get that passed. i think it's going to be just as difficult to expand on universal health care. if this were easy, we would have

done it already. i think it's important to have the principals to go further. >> i think you're making the other argument. >> i agree. listen, i do think some people think obama is sort of yesterday's news. but the fact is that the health care act, aca, has been a dramatic success, an historic success. and what i see is that the winds are changing. we had very progressive winds blowing for a long time. the last three or four weeks, the winds are starting to move to a more moderate position. >> dana bash is with pete buttigieg. >> thanks, anderson. mayor buttigieg, how did it feel out there? >> it felt good. it was another opportunity to share our message, to try to talk about how we're trying to build a sense of belonging for the country for the future and reach as many people as possible with that message. >> so i know all of us were preparing for you. now that you are, you know, rising, have risen in the polls certainly in iowa and more broadly, to have a giant target

on your back. and it didn't come so much until really the end, which we'll talk about in a minute. but you seem like you were prepared for incoming and maybe didn't get as much as you thought. >> well, we knew that we might take some shots, but the most important thing, i think, is to stick to your core. and on an occasion like this, one of very limited set of opportunities to speak to millions of americans about what kind of president each of us will be. i knew that my most important job was to make it clear where i am on the issues and how i seek to prepare this country for that moment when the sun comes up, donald trump is no longer president, and we got to find our way to a new era. >> so there was one moment which was a little bit risky, a risk that you took, which is linking your experience as a gay man to the civil rights experience of african-americans. and you said, i do have the experience of sometimes feeling like a stranger in my own

country. talk about how you got to that point where you wanted to make that connection. >> well, when i'm speaking with black voters across the country, the two biggest things i hear are, first of all, what are you going to do? what is your agenda for black america? but even more than that is what moves you? what makes you tick? why do you care about any of this? and i realized before i got to the what, i need to explain the why. now, the experience of being black in america is by no means the same or equivalent or in some ways even comparable to the experience of being gay. >> that's what some african-americans are likely to say when they -- >> i tried to make clear that i haven't had the experience of being discriminated against because of race. but i do know what it is to question your belonging in your country, and i think now is a moment where the patterns of exclusion that have existed in this country around race, country of origin, abilities, so many different ways, call us to find in our own identity, in our own very different life experiences the motivation to help others and make sure we are standing up for different people

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midnight here in new york and in atlanta where the democratic presidential candidates did verbal battle tonight. ten candidates, the backdrop to it all, a day of impeachment testimony that puts president trump squarely at the center of the worst allegations against him. i want to go back to dana bash, who is with mayor pete buttigieg. dana? >> thanks, anderson. and we talked a little bit about the fact that it didn't really get hot on you until the end of the debate, and there was a very

crackling moment between you and senator klobuchar on the question of experience. listen to what it was. >> this is a good example where he has said the right words, but i actually have the experience and am leading 11 of the bills that are in that house-passed bill you just referred to. and i think this kind of experience matters. i have been devoted to this from the time that i've got to the senate, and i think having that experience, knowing how you can get things done, leading the bills to take the social media companies to task, a bipartisan bill to say, yeah, you have to say where these ads come from and how they're paid for, and stop the unbelievable practice where we still have 11 states that don't have backup paper ballots. that is my bipartisan bill, and i am so close to getting it done. and the way i get it done is if i'm president. but just like i have won statewide, and mayor, i have all appreciation for your good work

as a local official, and i also have actually done this work. i think experience should matter. >> so first of all, washington experience is not the only experience that matters. there's more than 100 years of washington experience on this stage, and where are we right now as a country? i have the experience of bringing people together to get something done. i have the experience of being commanded into a war zone by an american president. i have the experience of knowing what is at stake as the decisions made in those big white buildings come into our lives, our homes, our families, our workplaces, and our marriages, and i would submit that this is the kind of experience we need not just to go to washington, but to change it before it is too late. >> and senator klobuchar was just in this chair before you got here saying that she thinks your experience is fine because she had it, you know, a few jobs

ago. what's your response? >> well, being responsible for the well being of a population and the conduct of the government the way a mayor or a governor or a president is, is different, i think, than any other experience in public service. i certainly respect the experience that she and all of the people on that stage bring. but this is a moment i think that calls for something different than the conventional establishment washington capitol hill experience. what i was making the case for is what we have had to do, especially if a community like mine, when i arrived, our poverty rate was pushing 30%. even basic things that a lot of cities that had more prosperity could count on were not there for us in south bend. they described us as a dying city. and now more than any individual achievement i would point to, we've got a city that believes in itself a different way. guiding a community through that i think is as relevant as any experience you can bring to the office. no job is like the presidency, but everybody arrives at the presidency with their own experience, and i would say mine

of leading a population and a community and, of course, my military experience are as relevant as any to what is needed in the white house today. >> so senator klobuchar was asked a question that you weren't asked a follow-up on, so i'm going to do that here, which is what she said on cnn a couple of weeks ago, that if you were a woman or if there were a woman with your level of experience, you wouldn't even be on anybody's radar. do you think that's true? >> i think she's right to point out the effect that sexism has in politics today, not only in politics, also across our society, and it's why it is so important to build the economic empowerment of women, the social equality of women. it's why i've proposed that my cabinet will be at least 50% women. so i do think she's making an important point. >> you talked a lot, your whole message in your campaign, but particularly tonight was preaching unity. you talked about a tender moment, which i'm sure billy joel will be very happy about. but you talk about it, but what

in your background equips you to be the unifier in chief? >> well, when you are a mayor, you live and breathe a community that is often divided or torn apart by different issues as we have been in my own city many times. and it's helped me understand the urgency of drawing together people who sometimes have nothing in common besides the fact that they live in the same city. when you're in the military, you are put into a difficult situation with people radically different from you, i mean people with different life experiences, definitely different politics, and you come together to get something done. we need that same unifying spirit in washington, not because we're all going to agree on everything. that's not the point. but because the presidency needs to be something that belongs to all of us and builds up that sense of belonging in the united states as well as being able to hold together, galvanize not polarize the majority that we're going to need to govern and deliver these things that all of us were talking about. >> one last question. i know you wanted to get the chance to talk about your

military experience. in particular, what the president did with regard to pardoning members of the military who were convicted of war crimes. >> yeah, this didn't come up tonight, but it is so important because what the president did was overall arule the uniform cf justice. a military command accused and convicted people of war crimes, and the president by saying -- he said something like, you send people into war and these things happen. became somebody responsible for this image, this idea that there's no difference between a war fighter and a war criminal, which is a slander against veterans. it is not pro-military to suggest that being sent into a conflict turns you into a war criminal, and those bright lines between what is lawful and not are part of the foundation of military honor as well as military justice. the president has undermined it. we need a commander in chief who understands what that military honor requires of us and why that military justice should be

respected. >> mayor pete buttigieg, thank you so much for your time. appreciate it. >> good to be with you. >> anderson? >> dana, thanks. we expect to hear from senator kamala harris momentarily. we'll go back to dana for that. we're here back now in new york. we talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the last hour, but we just heard from mayor pete buttigieg. obviously he's polling well in iowa, in new hampshire. when it comes to south carolina, there's a big issue obviously among african-american voters. i think there was one recent poll, he's polling at like zero percent. >> 0.0. that's tough. among black voters. >> some people point to the issues in south bend, you know, the issues at the police department. also others say, you know, is it concern over him being gay among african-american populations?

others say that's an unfair characterization of african-american viewpoints. >> you watched pete in this debate. they brought up the issues around farm subsidies. he lights up. and he was unbelievable on that. i'm from tennessee. i love to hear people in our party talk about those issues. he was great. he was confident. you just had this sense, this guy has thought about this. he's talked to 100,000 people who are all farmers. he knows what they need. he's ready for business. when the issues around black stuff comes up, it's more studied. it's more prepared. it's more careful. it feels like he feels he's on some thin ice, and i just don't understand why. and i understand he's trying to make that connection, say, listen, i get it. in my own country, being somebody who is gay, i've got a shared sense of kind of fellow feeling there. but he doesn't do it right because then you start feeling kind of tense when he says it. are you claiming -- he doesn't have the touch. he needs to get the touch. he may get the touch.

the reality is he's a great candidate. he's growing. to your point, he's growing in front of our very eyes. but he falls off a cliff when he hits these racial issues. >> one of the reasons why joe biden is doing so well with black voters is that he seems like the safest, most electable choice. he was the former vice president. black voters are the closest to the pain when it comes to a president trump, and they care the most about beating him. pete buttigieg is kind of the opposite. he's 37. he's a small-town mayor. as was pointed out tonight, he lost his only statewide race by 25 points. he's clearly an insanely impressive person, but that's not a safe choice for a nominee. and i think that, just as much as his missteps on the racial issues, might be why african-american voters are holding back. >> and i also think there's something sort of more subtle that maybe black people can pick up on that other people can't. biden seems like he's comfortable around black people, right? and pete buttigieg doesn't seem

like he's spent much time around black people. and i don't know how you get over that. i don't know why he hasn't really spent much time around black people. i don't think that's something you can sort of make up with a douglas plan or, you know, going tomo to more house and taking pictures with a bunch of morehouse students. and there's obviously low name i.d. and maybe there's not the electable thing. i think to your point, he just doesn't seem comfortableable ta talking about these issues. >> barack obama was largely dismissed by some as a guy four years out of the illinois state sna senate when he ran, and there was a widespread suspicion that he couldn't win. when he won the iowa caucuses, the whole psychology changed. this is a dynamic process, and so how do you persuade people you can win? you win. you look like a winner, and winner begets winning. that's what he's counting on. whether it will get him there, i

don't know. >> i don't think it's -- >> i think the difference here is that obama had to prove that white voters would vote for a black nominee, and that's what happened in iowa. pete clearly doesn't have that same challenge. white voters seem to like him. >> but you say he's uneven, then. you know, he can be passionate about one thing and doesn't seem really comfortable about something else. i mean you look at every candidate, they're like that. look at joe biden. joe biden tonight, how uneven -- i know you gave him a "d." >> for the second half. he got a "b" in the first half. >> so maybe a "c." but how uneven is he? when he talks about foreign policy -- >> he's great. >> he's terrific. he's firm. he doesn't have to think about it. he's not walking on eggshells. he knows what he wants to do. but when he's talking about other things, maybe health care, maybe a "b" on that. >> mm-hmm. >> but climate change tonight, he had to talk -- marijuana. climate change tonight, he had to talk about his bill in the '80s. marijuana was a bit of a problem

for him. so he's really uneven. >> but nobody is saying, but maybe he'll grow. >> well, but they'll say if he stays uneven, maybe it just kind of evens itself out. with buttigieg, he has something to prove. >> there's this long tradition in american politics that when it comes to finding the next president, we often look for qualities in that person we don't see in the current incumbent. i think that's working in his favor in this case because he's thoughtful compared to trump. you know, he's actually read books, which makes a difference. you know, he's younger. he's idealistic. he's inspirational. i can see all of that. it is troublesome, though, to hear in his own hoemts, he's having so much trouble in the black community. there's something about that that doesn't compute. i don't understand that. >> senator kamala harris is next. iowa voters weigh in on what they saw tonight. later, a remarkable day of impeachment testimony as our special late night edition of "360" rolls on.

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shortly, digging into what was by any measure a pivotal day of impeachment testimony. the closest person to president trump, ambassador gord sondland. right now another candidate is at dana bash's camera location in atlanta. senator kamala harris. let's go there. dana? >> thanks, anderson. thank you, senator, for joining me. >> of course. >> just broadly how did you feel about tonight's debate? >> i thought it was a good debate. you know, the challenge always is we have a minute and 15 seconds to talk about some of the most important and complicated issues impacting our country, and at stake in the election. but overall, i thought it was a good night. >> i want to play for you and for our viewers kind of a surprising moment. >> okay. >> a long moment with you and tulsi gabbard. >> okay. >> let's listen. >> i think that it's unfortunate that we have someone on the

stage who is attempting to be the democratic nominee for president of the united states who during the obama administration spent four years full-time on fox news criticizing president obama -- >> that's ridiculous. >> who spent full time criticizing people on this stage affiliated with the democratic party when donald trump was elected, not even sworn in, buddied up to steve bannon to get a meeting with donald trump in the trump tower. fails to call a war criminal by what he is as a war criminal. and then spends full time during the course of this campaign again criticizing the democratic party. >> what senator harris is doing is unfortunately continuing to traffic in lies and smears and innuendos because she cannot challenge the substance of the argument that i'm making, the leadership and the change that i'm seeking to bring in our foreign policy, which only makes me guess that she will, as

president, continue the status quo, continue the bush, clinton, trump foreign policy of regime change wars, which is deeply destructive. >> what made you want to go there? >> i was asked the question. >> but you went there. you could have done it in a different way. >> well, i mean, listen, i'm a lifelong democrat, and i believe that the democratic party stands for very important values and principles, many of which we talked about tonight, addressing the injustice of the economic divide between americans and talking about the need to fix that. talking about issues like the value of public education and the need to support that. these are the issues that i care about. this is why i am a democrat. and there have been so many attacks by her against the democratic party, against the very structure of how we do our work that i felt the need to talk about it. >> any -- i was actually thinking about the moment in

cnn's detroit debate. i was one of the moderators when she went after you. >> that's right. >> she went after you. was there anything in the back of your mind that said, okay, now's my chance? >> no. i mean a lot has happened since that debate that really does -- it's more evidence of my point about what she's done to attack democrats consistently and i felt the need to talk with truth about who the democratic party is and what we have at stake. >> one of the points that mayor buttigieg made tonight was that in his attempt to kind of bridge a divide that he has between him and his candidacy and african-american voters according to the polls, is to equate his experience as a gay man with african-americans' experience in this country in terms of, you know, civil rights and not being judged for who they are. how did you think -- what do you think of that? is that a fair comparison? >> i don't -- i'm never going to

engage or allow anyone to engage in comparing struggles. i think that is just misdirected. >> how so? >> so we're going to now say that my pain is worse than your pain? we had 400 years of slavery in this country. we had years of lynching, which involved black men in particular being dragged from their homes and hung on a tree, often castrated. we've had the years of jim crow and institutional racism that included redlining and systemic racism that lingers today. and then, you know, we also have our lgbtq brothers and sisters who still, under the law, do not have full equality. these are all injustices, but to start comparing one group's pain to the other is misguided, and i think that anyone who wants to actually build the coalition around the country and bring

people together should not be in the position of saying that one group's pain is equal to or less than or greater than another's. >> what about the experience question? that was a big theme tonight. senator klobuchar talked about it. mayor buttigieg was kind of on the defensive, saying washington experience isn't the only experience. what's your view? you're a senator, but you're a relatively new senator. >> right. i have served in local government as twice elected district attorney of the city and county of san francisco. i was elected and re-elected as attorney general of california, a state of 40 million people, where i ran the second largest department of justice in the united states, second only to the united states department of justice. i am now serving in the united states senate as only the second black woman in the history of the senate to serve there, and i serve on the senator homeland security -- >> you reminded joe biden of that tonight. >> but i serve on the senate homeland security committee and on the senate intelligence committee. i'm the only person on the

debate stage to serve on either of those. so one of the points that was brought up was amy klobuchar's right point about the fact that, you know, i know that i would not have been taken seriously as a candidate for president of the united states if i didn't bring all of that experience to bear in terms of my candidacy and in terms of my perspective based on a life's work of dealing with issues that relate to economic injustice, relate to education issues, relate to immigration, relate to lgbtq equality. i think all of us should be judged based on our experience because to be president of the united states, especially at this moment in time, it's going to require one to luift a very heavy load. you can't learn on the job. i think you have to have perspective that comes with experience to know what the battles are and also to have had experience fighting with people in those battles. >> senator kamala, harris, thank you so much. >> thank you. it's good to be with you.

>> up next iowa voters give their take on tonight's debate. plus cory booker when we continue. ♪

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if recent history is any guide, millions of americans will have seen tonight's debate. right now, though, we want to narrow it down to just nine men and women, all democrats, all but two undecided. their take on the candidates will set the tone because these nine voters live in iowa. we first met them back in june. they watched the debate tonight with our gary tuchman. gary? >> reporter: anderson, five months, five debates. we've been with the same group of loyal democrats here in the reliably democratic county of

johnson county, iowa, home of the university of iowa. each time, and we watched thedy bait together today, they were all undecided when we started. two have made decisions. first tonight's debate. the first four, elizabeth warren did the best among this group. who had the boast showing tonight. >> klobuchar and booker. >> ed. >> >> klobuchar and warren. >> klobuchar and booker. >> booker and warren. >> scott? >> booker and buttigieg. >> booker and klobuchar. >> warren and klobuchar. >> warren and klobuchar. >> klobuchar and booker. >> so it looks like most of you, the highest number is booker. klobuchar second. warren sounds like she came in third here. and buttigieg had one? one person said buttigieg? one person said buttigieg. first of all, why do you think booker did the best? who wants to tell us? >> he's the most inspiring. he's always working on talking about the issues in a positive manner, and he doesn't do any personal attacking. >> we didn't hear biden or

sanders, two of the front-runners. how come no one says anything about biden and sanders in a positive way after this debate? >> i don't think they really did anything differently than what we've seen in previous debates. >> how do you think biden did, malone? you picked biden the first debate. >> right, i picked him the first debate. but i mean for me, biden was just a little off. i mean he started mumbling on certain things, so i just kind of backed off. >> impeachment, big issue right now as we know. first thing that was mentioned during the debate. but an interesting point was amy klobuchar said our job is to look at each count when talking about impeachment. kamala harris said we have a criminal in the white house. two very different approaches. which was the best approach? >> klobuchar for sure. >> so you think that was too harsh, what kamala harris said about donald trump? the fact is he's not a convicted criminal. that's a fact, okay? >> but i mean -- >> you think klobuchar's approach is a better approach?

>> exactly. >> senators are going to be injure jurors. they need to come into it with an open mind. in a normal jury trial, they'd be struck. >> what was the most important moment you thought during the debate? >> i think the conversation about acknowledging people of color throughout everything, not just on the election season. it came up multiple times. >> what do you think, temple? >> i agree. showing up, making sure that they show up for black women because black women have continuously showed up at the polls. >> do you want to continue seeing this many people in the debates? >> no. >> no. >> you're going to go to the iowa caucuses on february 3rd. is it okay if 10 or 12 people are still in the race? >> no. >> you want them to leave? >> i prefer they recognize that nationally it's just not their time and to bow out so that the other candidates can have that opportunity. >> so who should drop out? >> andrew yang. >> anyone else? >> tulsi gabbard.

>> gabbard. >> yeah. >> and steyer. >> and steyer. >> okay. final question for you. i was talking about you were all undecided when we started. has any of you made a decision? >> i have. i am planning to caucus for amy klobuchar. >> how about you, ed? >> not yet. >> not yet. >> not yet. >> privately yes, but no because -- >> privately? so we can't shake you to get it out of you? >> no, because we're still advocating for mental illness plans. >> okay. scott, you're the husband. have you decided? >> i have not decided. >> do you know who she wants? >> i do. i can't tell you. >> oh, boy. rakisha? >> no. >> temple, you have a sticker that says warren on your red sweatshirt. have you changed your mind about her? >> i have not. i will still be caucusing for warren. >> janice? getting close. not there yet. >> okay. so most of our people still undecided. you still have a lot of time but in a sense it's dwindling because it is exactly 75 days until the iowa caucuses.

anderson? >> wow, 75 days. thank them so much for being with us yet again. gary, thank you. i want to go back to dana bash. she is with senator cory booker. dana. >> thanks, anderson. it's good to see you. that was fascinating to hear what gary tuchman was hearin from those voters. you won those undepucides voter in terms of your debate performance tonight. >> yes. >> yet the question, of course, is who are you going to caucus for? and your name didn't come up. >> how do you bridge that? >> let me tell you why it's important. this time out the polls have never been predictive of who is going to be upset. obama was 21 points behind right now. what we have going for us is i'm now at number three in net favorability in this state. we actually have -- lead the whole field, iowa and new hampshire in local leaders, mayors and state reps. so we're building the kind of

team that we need slowly, and what we find is when people come to a longer town hall with me, we get a high percentage of people that sign commitment to caucus cards. so we're very much in the hunt and ready to upset in iowa like most of our presidents of the past who weren't polling great like i'm not, that would go on and win in iowa because of all those other metrics that are really important right now. >> the difference between then and now of course are the debate rules. >> yes. >> and this debate was do or die for you and this time period is do or die for you because as you said during this debate, you're right now not on the debate stage in december. >> right. so we're on the precipice right now. if people want me on that stage, you're going to have to go to cory booker.com and trinitcontr. in the first hour after the debate, we had more money raced in the best fund-raising day of our campaign. if you want me in this race, you got to go to cory booker.com and make a contribution. >> it's also the polls. >> absolutely. we're missing it by like 1% in all polls which is like one

person of the people they call. all we need is a 1% more, which is about one person in any poll. so i'm hoping people will keep me in this race by choosing me. first step, though, we got to get that fund-raising up. we're on the precipice. you want me on that stage, then contribute. >> i just want to ask you again because i'm sure you think about this a lot. >> a lot. >> since you spend your time running around the country campaigning. why is it that people give you these high marks and yet you can't get there so far in the polls? >> because this is what's wrong about polling is that people decide late. that's why from carter polling at 1% right now, bill clinton polling at 4% right now, barack obama 21 points behind, they all benefited from people -- because remember, 87% of iowans said they haven't made their final decision. we are scoring points with folks

in our debate performances, our town halls. we're all setting this up. but because of these rules now by the dnc, even though we have more democratically elected people endorsing me, their rules are on polling. polls have never been predictive, but it's something we have to do and individual contributions online. we need those folks to keep me in this race. >> you said tonight during this debate that you shouldn't need a focus group to hear from african-american voters. you said you don't need a focus group. what were you referring to, or whom were you referring to? >> look, i just see that politicians often figure out what they're going to think by polls, by focus groups. >> but you weren't specifically talking about anybody? >> i was specifically talking about the fact we need to elect someone who has an authentic connection to the communities we need for the coalition. if you can just look through the african-americans, we had a record turnout in 2012. if we had the same turnout in

2016 of african-americans, we'd be talking about president hillary clinton right now. so if you -- if we're going to elect somebody, let's elect somebody that is authentically connected that can inspire african-americans to vote at the same levels they did in the record years. >> you think joe biden is authentically connected? >> i think he's going to have to answer for what i think continue to be indications he's out of step with the urgency of things that affect our country. i love joe -- excuse me, the vice president. he swore me into office. he's somebody we all respect. but again the leaders that have done it for us in the past, bill clinton, barack obama, are people that had the kind of love, loyalty and excitement and enthusiasm to get record turnouts. i hope that joe -- that the vice president, excuse me, will, you know, just in general for having this conversation -- i brought these issues up twice now on the debate stage. i really hope we can have a substantive connection about the

issues really impacting communities of color in this country. and the marijuana issue, remember, people on college campuses don't get arrested for marijuana. we had more marijuana arrests in 2017 than all violent crimes combined, and it's disprop disproportionately focusing on -- that's a major problem. >> i have to toss back to anderson. we have to take a break. yes or no, if you don't make the next debate stage, will up stay in the race? >> i think we have to have that conversation as a campaign. i do think this is a turning point in my entire campaign. we need the surge. we need the support. please keep me on that stage so i can keep bringing up issues important to all americans. >> but you might drop out if you don't make it? >> go to cory booker.com if you want me in this. >> thank you so much. anderson, back to you. >> just ahead, we're going to talk about the other big news tonight. riveting testimony during today's impeachment inquiry. the u. ambassador to the eu,

gordon sondland, puts the president, giuliani, and a lot of white house officials on notice. not magenta! not magenta. i'm not going back to the store. magenta! cartridges are so... (buzzer) (vo) the epson ecotank. no more cartridges. it comes with an incredible amount of ink that can save you a lot of frustration. ♪ the epson ecotank. just fill and chill! available at... - [narrator] forget about vacuuming for up to a month. shark iq robot deep-cleans and empties itself into a base you can empty once a month. and unlike standard robots that bounce around, it cleans row by row. if it's not a shark, it's just a robot.

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tonight's other big story,

riveting impeachment testimony from gordon sondland, the president's donor turned diplomat. sondland said the white house demanded investigations from ukraine in exchange for a white house visit, affirming a quid pro quo. he implicated the president, rudy giuliani, mike pence, the acting chief of staff, and the secretary of state. quoting from sondland now, everyone, he said, was in the loop. he was also asked about that july call he had with president trump outdoors at a restaurant in ukraine, and the language he used to describe the proposed deal. here's what he said. >> you confirmed to president trump that you were in ukraine at the time and that president zelensky, quote, loves your ass, unquote. do you recall saying that? >> yeah, that sounds like something i would say. that's how president trump and i communicate, a lot of four-letter words. in this case, three-letter. >> classic gordon.

our political team joining us, including tim naftali. have you ever seen somebody testify who is so happy to be there? >> the whole thing was just so bizarre. you know, it's like -- >> i feel like he's going to be talking about this over dinner for the rest of his life. >> 20 years. and rehearsing and remembering it or whatever. also, it was -- >> and then i said -- >> because it is. it is how we talk. >> three-letter word. >> it's what was asked. >> thanks, grandpa. i mean i think we laugh because it hurts too much to cry. i mean you sit here and you think about the ukrainian freedom fighters who are out there trying to stop putin from doing what hitler did, gobbling up countries, running over borders and they used to be able to look to americans for hope and help. and, you know, we played

politics with their lives and their liberties and it's wrong. now we have to go through this whole grueling process, and we're in hell. and, you know, for me, you know, i watched this process. we all look at the same thing. and then afterwards it's like we were watching two different movies. so even if you have people there doing it, saying all these things, we still can't agree. i thought today was stuff. >> tim, we haven't heard from you. >> well, today -- first of all, ambassador sondland not only connected dots but he added dots. and since this is a very different impeachment experience for the country, i'm seeing this as an accumulation of a mosaic. you know, every other impeachment process, we've either had one big documents dump in the case of clinton, when you had the starr report, or in the case of nixon, the impeachment inquiry took place behind closed doors. the only part that was public was when the members -- the

elected members debated whether or not they would impeach president nixon. this is the first time the american people have actually watched the collection of data as the elected members are watching it. and what was so interesting today was to see the republicans have a very hard time recalibrating their defense. so if this is the end of the story, this is going to be tough for democrats perhaps to move republicans in the house. i think in the senate, it's different because in the house you have gerrymandered districts. it's hard to gerrymander a state. but if more people come out, if this affects the decision on the part of people like bolton or others to testify because what happened thank you was sondland said the nsc is also part of this. that was a very important substory. he started to hit the argument that fiona hill will make, that she made in her testimony, that tim morrison made, that the nsc

tried to keep itself away from this nonsense, from the three stooges. he was saying, uh-uh. this was not an irregular channel. they were all involved. this might provoke what's really necessary, which is somebody who would talk to president trump on a regular basis like bolton to come and say, hey, the reason we did this was if we didn't do this, the president would not have given ukraine anything because he doesn't like ukraine. we had to pay him off, and the only way to pay president trump off was to get some dirt on his opponents. >> we're going to take a quick break and have more with our panel. coming up, a look ahead at another big day of testimony later this morning, a couple hours. i'm max, i was diagnosed with aplastic anemia and if i didn't find a donor, i probably wouldn't be here right now. be the match uses the power of the cisco network

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at a restaurant in kiev. i mean, obviously, look, today was a day that a lot of people were looking toward, i don't know if it changed the needle, i don't know if anybody here thinks it moved the needle one way or the other or as i oddly said, changed the needle. its a a whole new needle! does tomorrow -- i mean, at this point where does it go? >> you know, i think today -- i think you're quite right. they are methodically laying the pieces of a case. you have to sort of suspend logic not to see those pieces. the republicans are turning it into very much a partisan scrum. the people want to keep their tribe in place and they're probably succeeding in doing it. in terms of laying brick in the case, phi owe e fiona hill was witness in the depositions. she was deposition to john

bolton, was a witness to the whole thing. may know about bolton's conversations with the president, which are key. tim suggests that he was the guy that went in and said to the president, why aren't we giving aid to -- and tim morrison, who succeeded fiona hill said he didn't know what the president said to bolton other than that, no, i'm not ready. so i think, you know, fiona hill will be important. will it change the basic dynamic? no. i think we're headed to impeachment. i think we're headed to acquittal in the senate. we're required 20 republicans and i don't think you're going to get those. remember, we've never removed a president through this process in the history of the republic. >> she is bolton's proxy. she was close to bolton, worked for him, told a great story about july 10th and those meetings in the white house with gordon sondland where he felt the need to say in front of the ukrainians that there would

be -- have to be an investigation and she almost tore her hair out and bolton said, i don't want to be part of that drug deal. >> again, classic gordon. >> classic gordon. he's the problem child who seems to have the need to say everything publicly. they had their gordon problem. and so she will talk about inside the white house and how that didn't work. and the problems that they had on the national security side with this foreign policy that she describes as irregular even though gordon sondland thought it was the real policy. >> i'm looking forward to the david holmes testimony because it's going to be graphic and once they hear it they get it. the more you look at the facts in this case the more you come away with the evidence being overwhelming. interesting side bar, talking to joe lockhart tonight before we went on air and he pointed out that there's a six hour, seven

hour time difference between kiev and washington, d.c., and that the call was placed at lunchtime in kiev. if it was 1:00 in the afternoon at lunch, it would be 6:00 in the morning. he was calling the president of the united states at 6:00 in the morning his time. why would they ever put him through? how did he possibly get through? the only conceivable answer is that the operators were told by the president, i have a call that i'm expecting tomorrow, i want to take that call. the more you look at that, the more you realize, that's a pretty damning statement. >> the president allegedly in the call sort of said you are in ukraine, as if he didn't know, wasn't aware that he was in ukraine. >> right. he was reporting in. >> right. >> on what they had found, what he had found. >> he did say the president was cranky. maybe because he was interrupting tweeting time. >> we're going to leave it there. cnn's coverage of the impeachment hearings continues with erica hill next.

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i'm erica hill. thanks for joining us. welcome to a special report "white house in crisis, the impeachment inquiry." we're going to take a deep dive into public testimony to digest everything we learned over the last 24 hours and there is a mountain of new evidence. three more witnesses appearing before cameras, among them gordon sondland and his testimony was the most anticipated and he came back ready to tell all. he pointed the president directly at the ukraine pressure campaign. from there he kept naming names. >> secretary perry, ambassador volker and i worked with mr. rudy giuliani on ukraine matters at the express direction of the pres