this is time for "reliable sources". this is our weekly look at the story behind the story. how the news is made and how all of us can help make it better. this hour the train wreck interview the whole world is talking about. prince andrew. his interviewer is going to join me live to tell me what happened. plus right wing media's power and potential, katie hill has firsthand experience about what this is like. she'll join me live as well. and we have brand new reporting about president trump's mysterious visit to walter reed military hospital. dr. sanjay gupta is here with his brand new reporting in a few

minutes. first, after five days of televised impeachment hearings, the facts are clear if you are willing to see them. as the a.p.'s julie pace puts it, the mountain of evidence is beyond dispute. but disputes are the specialty of trump media. two americas are split into two different news worlds. i mean, think about it. right now in order to be a loyal republican these days, loyal to the president, here are the things that you're supposed to believe. you're supposed to believe in the ukraine conspiracy theory and believe the whistleblower made up a false story. that ukraine is dwlt of meddling in the 2016 election. that yovanovitch wouldn't hang trump's photo up in the embassy. let's put that scroll up and talk more about all the things you're supposed to believe in order to be a loyal republican. you're supposed to believe that adam schiff is someone who knows the identity of the whistleblower. you're supposed to believe that

crowd strooik is at the center of what really happened in 2016. what we know from fiona hill and other witnesses who testified under oath is some of the conspiracy theories are promoted by russian disinformation agents. we're also seeing republicans promote these, stand by these, and insist you must believe them too. it's a strange environment that we're living in right now. let me walk over to the panel and talk about what this week represented. and whether anything really changed. margaret sullivan is here, oliver darcy, and juliet hutty. thank you all for coming in. juliet, i know you have a lot of experience with these competing universes of information as someone who spent so many years at fox news. it was discouraging for me this

week to see that no matter how damning the evidence was, sean hannity just completed the different set of facts. what did you see happening? >> i think what happens on fox on a daily basis -- it's a microcome of what happens in the world on a daily basis. fox is banking on the fact that americans are going to -- americans who watch them krrk their viewers are going to stick with them. we know that i think it's like 20% of america, closely followed the impeachment hearings. i was talking to some relatives of mine over at my house. they're trump supporters. i said okay, so what did you think of the impeachment? we didn't watch. how do you get your news? we look at the headlines. the headlines when i go to their house, it's on fox news. when i look at their computer screen, it's breitbart or "the hill". so the headlines or information they're getting is an agenda

driven narrative. that's the right. they're not getting any of this information. and fox is banking on the fact as is hannity to tucker carlson and the rest of the crew, the "fox and friends" folk, they're banking on the fact they've done a good job of convincing us, the rest of the world and their viewers that the media is lying. that critics of are liars and the enemy of the state, and they're banking on the fact that everybody is going to stick with them and not go outside the lines. >> i saw this when i watched the nightly newscasts and watched sean hannity's version of the republican nightly news. let's look at lester holt on one side and hannity on the other. >> the most explosive testimony yet. >> everything the president said to sondland is exculpatory. >> there was a quid pro quo. >> no quid pro quo. >> former white house russia expert. >> today's witness, a so-called ukraine expert. >> blasting republicans for

spreading a conspiracy theory for ukraine interfering in the 2016 election. >> ukraine, did, in fact, interfere in the 2016 elections to help hillary clinton and hurt donald trump. >> it's cynical on hannity's part, but it does work. >> right. i think this week really showed there's no depth. the right wing media won't sink to to defend this president. and we talk a lot about hannity as well and how he misinforms viewers. i think we should also talk about how fox on the news side largely does not inform viewers. i think this week we saw, for instance, the website which is supposedly part of their straight news division run by hannity's former producer. it looked more like breitbart than you expect fox news to look like. look at the panelists they brought onto talk about the impeachment hears, they were bringing on people like ken star, mccarthy, people sympathetic to the president's case. and finally, we're using our

chyrons throughout the week to inform viewers about the testimony coming from the witnesses. >> chyron is the banner on the bottom of the screen. a lot of the time on fox news, they weren't putting the breaking news about the hearing on the banner. >> right. this is from fox's news division. they say we're fareless and straight down the middle and have an opinion, but the news division is tell it how it is. this week highlighted how their so-called news division is not doing that. >> the journalists feel squeezed by the situation. >> bret baier, good journalist. largely this news division and the way you see it operate on the websites and the way you see them do things with the chyrons, it shows they are really hesitant to be critical of the president and to just put in what the witnesses are saying. >> like what is happening? . >> yeah. what is happening in the real world. >> the lying by omission. they leave things out. >> the president called into "fox and friends" friday morning in order to talk for 53 minutes

about his view how things are doing. "the washington post" described it. trump continued to peddle falsehoods and. attacked his enemies and all while playing the role of persecuted victim. margaret, you're at "the washington post." we need writing and reporting to explain how bonkers this is. >> we can't say take it down the middle and say here's what the people on the right are saying. here's what the people on the left are saying. that amounts to a false equivalency. unfortunately, what's being viewed as left wing media is what i like to call the reality-based press, and you know, i don't think that most of the time and particularly on the evening shows, but as oliver says not just on the evening shows, you're not getting reality. you're getting a skewed version of things by design. >> and there's so much confusion as a result. you wrote a column this week for the post addressing this sense a lot of people have.

i don't know what to believe. you hear this all the time these days. it's a pretty relevant excuse. i don't know what to believe. you say that's a copout? >> i think it is a copout. i think as american citizens we like to say news consumers, but american citizens ought to make ourselves informed. and so to say i don't know. i'm hearing things on different sides. you know, read a newspaper. watch the evening news. okay. you want to watch fox, but compare and contrast. >> yeah. >> and get a sense and go beyond the headlines. and i think that when people say i don't know what to believe, i'm confused, i actually think we should push back on that and say well, you know, this is actually really important what's going on. and it's really -- you ought to find out. >> and seek out primary source material, et cetera. i also would like to point out what we're not seeing. that leads me to gop lawmakers. the leaders of the republican party and how they're not showing up on this screen. they're not showing up anywhere but fox.

mitch mcconnell, for example, zero interviews in the past three months. we searched autotranscripts. he hasn't done a single interview. it's not much bet fter if you lk at steve scalise and others. scalise pretty much all on fox news, showing up almost nowhere else in the past three months. this is something that's true for almost all the leaders of the republican party. i know you're not surprised by this, oliver, but i think we should recognize they've mostly stayed in a bubble. >> well, they have trouble defending the indefensible. they're going to an outlet that's not going to press them on things that are uncomfortable, that are unfavorable to their narrative they put out. and the republican party and the right wing press, they've totally created and constructed this alternate universe. and people are telling the truth and everyone else is telling lies. it's easy for them to peddle the

misinformation. they're not pressed on these things. if they were to come out in the real world, you see their arguments fall apart. you saw it when jim jordan went on state of the union with jake tapper. his argument just fell apart. collapsed under the weight of reality in the other universe, they're not bound by the same laws of physics. they're allowed to just put stuff out there that makes no real sense and the hosts don't press. >> it makes me wonder what it would be like to have ten minutes to interview mcconnell. just a couple questions and see how it reacts. panel, thank you so much. coming up here two of cnn's best, jake tapper and sanjay gupta join me with two different angles about the president and his credibility, and most importantly, why it matters. that's next. (bold music) now, it's like he has his own health entourage. he gets medicare's largest healthcare network, a free gym membership, vision, dental and more. there's so much to take advantage of.

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and non-24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. talk to your doctor, and call 844-214-2424. now to all the president's lies. you know the last time washington was in the grip of an impeachment inquiry, republican congressman henry hyde wanted us all to view the news through the eyes of a child. hyde passed away in 2007. his words stand out to me today from 1999 when he read aloud a letter from a third grader in chicago. he was making a point about how the president is a role model for the country. >> as that third grader from chicago wrote to me, if you can't believe the president, who can you believe? >> if you can't believe the president, who can you believe? there's such power in that question. of course, it applied then to

bill clinton and now applies to president trump who kind of makes past presidential liars look like amateurs. trump's lying is to pervasive it's the subject of an hour long special by jake tapper called "all the president's lies". he speaks with amanda carpenter and other experts. talking about how the president is gaslighting the country. the special premiers tonight, sunday at 9:00 p.m., and tapper is joining me now for a preview. jake j is it fair to say we're at the point where the president and allied outlets are waging a disinformation war on the public? is it that bad? >> well, there's a lot of disinformation coming from president trump and his allies in the media and on capitol hill. there's a lot of things that are said that are just factually not true. and the truth is i was thinking about this documentary before ukraine happened, and before this scandal broke. but it has become disinformation, lying has become

a key part of his defense. i mean, he says the president says, that the whistleblower complaint has been disproven. that's not true. the main components of it have been backed p by further testimony. he says that adam schiff made up his own version of the call, and then was proven wrong when the president released the call. and that's not what happened at all. the president released the rough transcript. adam schiff, and you can question the wiseness of this, but he did his own version of it in front of the house intelligence committee that time, but it wasn't -- he wasn't trying to mislead. he was trying to do like a mob version of it. but in any case, the point is like, the president's timeline is completely off. and so much of this is designed, i think just to confuse the american people, and muddy the waters and cloud what the facts are. >> and that's where the gaslighting comes. do you think journalists are going to look back in years and

regret not doing more to speak out about the lying and deceit. this prime thyime special is a y to address how ridiculous it's gotten. >> i think some reporters will. i don't think some of them or any of us who attempt to just staten equivocally what the facts are and what they are not, not only with president trump but with any major politician, although especially president trump who lies so frequently. i don't think we necessarily have anything to look back on with regret. but i certainly think there are other journalists who are not doing it. i'll tell you, when i prepare for interviews, i read previous interviews that the democrat or republican i'm about to interview has done. and i'm quite often and i'm not going to give you any names or networks, but i'm quite often stunned at the degree to which just blatant lies are not only said by politicians, but

sometimes by members of the media. it gets so confusing for americans and for trump supporters and trump opponents. i think people just throw up their hands and walk away. but it's not just the lie itself that president trump is pushing. it's the corruption of the truth. the fact that all these people around him have to start talking. acting as if president trump is talking about this thing that is actually a legitimate beef that he might have when that's not at all what he's talking about. >> right. and then we get more confused and that's why we need specials like yours. jake, thank you so much. >> thank you, brian. tapper's special is tonight, 9:00 p.m. eastern time here on cnn. the clear result of "all the president's lies" is a lack of credibility not just for the president but his aides. there's been speculation about the unusual trip to walter reed last weekend. trump says he went for a routine physical because he had extra time. but does it add up?

neurosurgeon, dr. sanjay gupta has spoken to several doctors who previously worked at the white house or are currently in touch with the white house to try to find out what's going on. his new story was just published on cnn.com. what's the new reporting? >> first, as a starting point, any time a 73-year-old man with clinical obesity and a history of heart disease goes to the dr. unannoun unannounced, medical people will ask why. and the president going to the hospital is a big deal no matter what. there's lots of things that need to happen at. the hospital corridors are closed. certain roads are closed. that's why an institution-wide notice goes out. that didn't happen here. that was a bit unusual. also, what we subsequently heard that the president had done at walter reed after going through the process of getting to the hospital were basic lab tests,

primarily, that could have been done at the white house. so those are important points. you know, we see video of when the president is leaving the white house. we see dr. shawn conley getting into the vehicle with him. that's important. doctors that i talked to said in their entire time as white house physicians, they never road with the president. that's a security concern, and yet, you see the doctor riding with the president on the way to walter reed. this past saturday. eight days ago now. we don't know what to make of that. and it's hard to say that it means anything. we know that shawn conley released after we asked questions in terms of his own explanation of things. and what he spent time doing in the memo he released was basically saying here are the things the president didn't have done as opposed to what he did have done. so these are all sort of just question marks. i will say one thing, brian. president trump seems to have gotten in and out of the hospital within a couple of hours. >> yeah. >> that's a good thing.

if it were something more serious or something requiring intensive care, it seems like it would have been longer. >> right. and certainly he's been on camera since then. no outward issues, but because of this administration's lack of credibility, we are left with these questions. and you say in your cnn.com story your greatest concern is not whether he's being honest with the public, but whether his doctors are being with him. >> look, this is a huge concern, brian. i think the idea of having what are supposed to be independent medical professionals in a way acting beholden to the president as we have seen in the past, i'm not making that up. i mean, everyone remembers the letter where it was said he'll be the healthiest president ever. his health is astonishingly excellent. i mean, really flowery language. then we come to find out allegedly that letter was entirely dictated by president trump himself to dr. harold bornstein. that is being beholden to someone. when i asked dr. ronny jackson,

you remember, brian, last year in 2018 at the press conference a couple questions, i want you to listen to this for a second. this is the more nuanced stuff you have to get through. listen to this. >> let's listen. >> reporter: he does have heart disease. is that what you said? >> no. >> he had a ct scan before that showed calcium. >> he did. he had a -- so, i think technically he has nonclinical coronary atheroscerosis. >> that's the challenge. he did not disclose the president even had this test. he was telling about his magnesium levels, his potassium levels. the fact that the president had a coronary ct of his heart was never in the official record. it's only because i had a source that told me about it that i was able to ask him about it. second, i said so this shows heart disease. and you saw, um, he was really

struggling there to try to basically, i think, avoid saying the word disease. it sounds like he was basically told not to do. and yet, that's what the study showed. that's the challenge, brian. >> it would be great to see a press conference today or next week with one of the president's doctors, but i'm not going to hold my breath, unfortunately. >> that's right. >> thank you so much. >> you got it. thank you. >> full stories up on cnn.com. up next, katie hill is going to tell me what it's like to be covered. h! my mower! (burke) the number "one." seen it, covered it. at farmers insurance, we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. (bert) mmm. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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what happens after you resign from your con depressional seat -- congressional seat. katie hill is remaining visible and speaking out against what she calls right wing media smears. she resigned after admitting she had an inappropriate relationship with a campaign staffer before coming into office. there were intimate photos released and allegations made against her. the daily mail piled on with other photos as well. in the words of the atlantic c

this happened gradually and then all once. but now it's been a few weeks. and hill is still on capitol hill sometimes. she's remaining very public. speaking out about the impeachment inquiry, et cetera. so let's hear from her now. katie hill joining me from washington. you were on capitol hill this week. tell me about what the last few weeks have been like. >> i mean, it was a very c conscious decision to be right. what the right wing media and those who attacked me was for me to be silenced. that's something we see on attacks against women not just high profile women but women across the board is that these kinds of attacks are meant to silence now, demean you, and show that you do not have power. so for me, it was really important to show that that's not going to work. and i have to own up to my responsibility in this, but i think coming forward and saying i'm going to continue to be a voice for people who believed in

me and what this whole fight is about is something that i believe in. >> you did admit to a breach of responsibility with the inappropriate relationship, but you've denied other elements of the accusations. there's been a divorce proceeding, you say that you're the victim essentially of this smear campaign. am i getting it right? is that correct? >> yeah. i mean, you know, i think there's a lot of complicated aspects to this. right? but the big e thing for me is that this is a -- i think we can't -- we have to look at this from an entire perspective, and at the end of the day, i did step down, but i'm going to continue to fight for the things a matter, and part of that is figuring out the next step. right now we have a criminal in the white house. we have republicans on capitol hill who are doing everything that they can to defend him even when it means they're sacrificing their own integrity.

and are lying to the american people nonstop. that's what i'm going to do. >> what should people understand about what it's like to see these websites publishing intimate photos or what it's like to be attacked on fox news? there's multiple layers here. but what should people know about that experience? >> i think it's that it's one of the darkest things you can experience. and i think this is -- what we have to think about is this isn't just happening to me. this is happening to girls and women across the country. and that's why we see -- i was asked about this all the time on the campaign trail by really young teenagers and girls who are -- who experience cyber pullying in different capacities and are saying this is -- what are you going to do about this? we don't have an answer for that. so we need to figure out the fight. you also see it as a tactic that's constantly used by the right. look at what they're doing to the witnesses on the impeachment inquiry. look at what they're doing to try to silence anybody who speaks out in a way that they

don't like. >> i was going to bring that up. it's different circumstances, but these witnesses that go out there, in most cases they don't want to be on capitol hill testifying, and if they go home at night and turn on the tv, they're getting smeared by hannity and carlson. is it an out of body experience? what was it like to be called names? >> totally. you have to -- you really can't understand until you're there. as a public figure you're used to attacks, but when it gets to the level of these threats and feeling like you're not seen as a person anymore, and that's -- the dehumanization is something that i think people can't really understand until you've been there. that's what the right wing media is doing. look what they're doing to fiona hill and what they did to ambassador yovanovitch, and i think that you see it in particular with women. because they are -- that is what the right likes to do.

right? they are easier targets, and they're true threats to safety. my own family experienced that. myself, right? but it's really disgusting. it's horrific. it's not something we should do on our own side. i think we have to be -- we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard and recognize no matter how despicable we think somebody is, they're a human. and you can't dehumanize them like this. >> katie hill, thank you. great to see you. >> thank you. a quick break here. after the break the interview that led a prince to resign from public life. we're going to talk with the journalist who conducted the exclusive interview and learn what her interviewing skills next. ♪'cause no matter how far away you roam.♪ ♪when you pine for the sunshine of a friendly gaze.♪

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>> the duke of i don't recollect brins andrew, a son of queen elizabe elizabeth ii. he sat down where it seemed like he was attempted to explain himself with his association with jeffrey epstein. this interview only made things worse for the prince. he did not seem to comport himself well in the interview. he claimed he had no indication that epstein was doing anything wrong at the time. he didn't seem remorseful about the relationship with a six trafficker and pedophile. he did use the interview to deny allegations he had sex with an

underage woman. even some parts of explanation didn't add up. he faced an intense backlash. he has now stepped back from his public duties for the foreseeable future. here to talk about the story behind the story about how the interview came about is the bbc's emily. first of all, there's so much i want to ask you about all to conduct an interview of this scale and this magnitude. how did you land this interview in the first place? >> it was a lot of preparation. i think it's fair to say it didn't happen overnight. sometimes on tv we give the illusion that these things are sort of produced out of thin air, magic. and you know well, brian, they never come together without an awful amount of preparation and advanced thought, and a certain amount i guess of indecent begging. and this one took months and months to get us to that place.

yeah. >> let's look at just a little clip from the interview to give you both a sense of how you were asking your questions. here's the clip. >> all of this goes back to your friendship with jeffrey epstein. how did you first become friends? how did you meet? >> a very simple question. i would argue very softly spoken. this was not a situation where you were trying to point your finger at him and get him to admit to guilt. so tell me about that strategy. >> do you know what? this may sound add. in one way, it was a very straightforward interview. i knew that we only had one shot at this. there were no previous interviews like it. there was nothing i could go to to try to compare it with old answers. it was an interview about getting information. and it was an interview that i knew would be watched by women who had been girls, whose lives had been turned upside down by

jeffrey epstein, and whose lives in some cases have been damaged ir r . the whole strategy of the interview was just to try and get information on every step of the way, understand the reasons he made certain decisions. understand his presence, or his absence. understand why he'd agree to things when he'd last seen m maxwell. it was just about trying to get in the most forensic way possible, an understanding of the whole picture, because we had scraps. we had the photograph. we had sightings. we had little bits of cc tv. we had witness accounts, and then we had the deposition in court of the women themselves, and for me the most important thing was just to take all the information and try and get a narrative that actually people sitting at home could understand. >> at one point he said -- he

used to not be able to sweat and that is part of his denial about the allegation. did he seem truthful to you? did he seem sincere? >> do you know what? it's for other people to decide whether what they saw and what they heard made sense, and whether they think he was telling the truth in what he said, but from my perspective, he seemed authentic. he seemed candid in his desire to engage with the questions. as an interviewer, that's all you can ask for. you ask for somebody to take your questions head on, to engage with them. to try and give you the best response or the best understanding. i mean, i'm not a lawyer. i didn't come to this with a dog in the fight. i wasn't trying to prove something. it wasn't meant to be a fight or verbal jousting. i just promised him you have the time, the place, the breadth to tell your story, and we will

give you that if you engage with the questions, and to be fair, there was no question that they batted away. there was nothing that we came across where he tried to divert or take me down a rabbit hole of a different answer. to be frank, we're so used to politicians and interviewees who don't want to engage with the question at all, that was the most surprising thing about the hour. >> you also allowed for silence and embraced silence and just let him sit there until he answered. and that's also an important interviewing tactic, isn't it? >> what we learned on news night was just how important it is to have the proper amount of time that an interview requires. and i remember going into the interview and my editor said you know what? if you need to pause, you need to pause. if you need to say something again, you say it again.

and actually, if you have three seconds to wave a mic under somebody's nose and try and grab a doorstep question, that can't be done. if you know that you've got a decent amount of time, you've got 40 minutes or so to sit down, then sometimes it is the silences that speak more than the words. it is those pauses where you can each reflect on what's actually being said that allows the story to emerge in a better and more understandable way, i think. yeah. >> right. you know, when i introduced you a few minutes ago, i said an underage woman. someone pointed out underage women are girls. this is a story about girls being exploited. i wonder if you were thinking about them as viewers when you were sitting down with prince andrew. >> very much. as i said at the beginning, when i went into that interview, i knew that this would be watched pretty much internationally,

around the world. i was very conscious that those women who had been girls at the time would be watching what he said and looking for answers in what he tried to explain, and at one point i actually said if virginia roberts, the woman who had made the accusations directly to prince andrew himself, if he's watching this, what is your message to her, or for her? and he said i don't -- i have no message to her. he was trying to just put himself in a place where he was talking directly about his own experiences and trying to explain that. but yes, for my own part, i was very conscious that this would be watched by the girls at the time, by the women now who were trying to make sense of any of the experiences that they themselves had had. >> all right. emily, thank you so much. >> my pleasure. the full interview is on the

bbc kwbs. when we come back, the gr growing dangers for journalists around the world and what the committee to protect journalists is doing to help.

egypt is continuing it crackdown on press freedom. raiding the offices of one of the last independent news outlets in the country and detaining several journalists.

we've learned in that case those journalists have been released. this is another example of why it is a dangerous time to be a journalist in many parts of the globe. take a look at this data from the committee to protect journalists. it shows you back from 1992 up until 2018. the number of journalists either killed or imprisoned or missing. you'd like to see the graph trending downward. instead, it's trending upward. 2016, 2017, 2018 being three of the most dangerous years. it's not just measured that way. you can also look at journalists who are denied access to government events. there are lots of different examples of the press being limited. and lots of different ways. and that's something that cpj tracks every day. right now i'm joined by the executive director and kathleen carol, the current board chair. they were in a meeting this week with vice president pence. let's start there. i know you've been seeking this

meeting with the trump administration pretty much since the beginning of the trump administration. and joel, they finally came through this week. >> it finally came through. i think what the opportunity was is we had journalists from around the world who we honored with our international press freedom award, and we reached out as we do with every administration to the leadership, and we said would you like to meet with them and hear about their experiences and understand the threats they face? and we're very pleased that vice president pence said yes. we had a very interesting meeting. >> you all say he was engaged. he seemed interested, but his boss calls us the enemy of the people. how do we reconcile that? >> listen, i think it's important for us to talk to everybody. they're not going to hear our point of view unless we talk with them. we presented it passionately. the journalists who met with them heard fake news and it being uttered by the white house and fake news laws

are being enacted in those countries and it means something very deeply personal to them. so we wanted the administration to hear from people who are being directly impacted by the effect of that language. >> any requests about what the administration should be doing differently? >> what these journalists wanted to say is when the u.s. speaks out for press freedom and defends the rights of journal t journalists, it makes a difference. we had two award winners from nicaragua who wanted to thank the administration for speaking out on their behalf, and our other awardees wanted the vice president to understand that the kind of language that the trump administration is using is making their job more difficult and more dangerous. and that was the message they wanted to communicate to him. >> why is it that the number journalists killed, imprisoned is continuing to increase? is it because of a lack of leadership from the u.s. and other countries? >> i think there are a lot of reasons -- it's a long-term trend. first of all, it has to do with a change in technology and the way that news is gathered and disseminated around the world. secondly, it has to do with a

new generation of autocratic leaders who are deeply sensitive and concerned about critical coverage and are taking steps to limit and mobilize its impact. but i do think that u.s. leadership is critical to defending the rights of journalists around the world is missing in terms of the rhetoric. and that leadership is missing in terms of direct support for the rights of journalists and press freedom working in difficult and dangerous environments. >> and it's a bank shot effect, it's a spectrum, right? it goes from online harassment and lack of access to government events to imprisonment and torture. >> and murder. and murder. >> and jamal khashoggi and others, these are big, bold-faced names we all hear about, but there are so many cases that i fare we don't. >> indeed, there were more than 50 journalists murdered in retaliation for their work according to cpj's data in the year that jamal was killed. and the reason we make a fuss about the high-profile cases is if there's not justice for somebody like jamal who was killed in a very public and hideous way, and government

entities have decided that they know who ordered the killing. and yet nothing has happened. and so, if we can't help in those circumstances, what is that going to mean for all of those people who are being murdered in anonymity. we don't want them to be anonymous. we want people to understand that there's a price to be paid for this kind of killing. >> right. >> thank you both. >> thank you. >> for the work that you're doing. quick break here on "reliable sources." much more in just a moment. i am totally blind. and non-24 can make me show up too early... or too late. or make me feel like i'm not really "there." talk to your doctor, and call 844-234-2424. so bob, what do you take for back pain? before i take anything, i apply topical pain relievers first.

salonpas lidocaine patch blocks pain receptors for effective, non-addictive relief. salonpas lidocaine. patch, roll-on or cream. hisamitsu. of millions of americans during the recession. so, my wife kat and i took action. we started a non-profit community bank with a simple theory - give people a fair deal and real economic power. invest in the community, in businesses owned by women and people of color, in affordable housing. the difference between words and actions matters. that's a lesson politicians in washington could use right now. i'm tom steyer, and i approve this message.

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the award "cult" has been popping up more and more. think back to two weeks ago on this program, anthony scaramucci talked about his claim that trump supporters are in a cult. just last week, dan rather said he thinks for trump seems increasingly cultish. and this weekend on the "washington post," trump critic and republican strategist jim weaver says the gop is not a party anymore in the traditional sense. it's a cult. but none of them are mental health experts. steven hassan is. he's out with a brand-new book called the cult of trump. he has first hand experience escaping the unification church back in the '70s and he decided to write this book because he believes there's something seriously wrong with our politics. >> so i define a destructive cult as an authoritarian pyramid-structured group with someone at the top who claims to have total power and total wisdom that uses the deception and control of bayer to make people loyal and dependent and

obedient followers so for me, the issue between an ethical healthy cult versus a destructive cult, i'm referring to trump's organization and followership as a destructive cult, where people are being fed propaganda and they're not being encouraged to think for themselves. they're not being encouraged to really explore and look at the details and arrive at their own conclusion. much of what they're hearing is emotionally driven, loaded words, thought-stopping and stop-terminating-type cliches like fake news or build the wall or make america great again. >> you say the president is using mind control, but how is that provable? >> so we can start with the pathological lying, which is

characteristic of destructive cult leaders. saying things in a very confident way that have nothing to do with facts or truthfulness. the blaming others and never taking responsibility for his own failures and faults. shunning and kicking out anyone who raises questions or concerns about his own behavior. his use of fearmongering, immigration is a horrible thing. >> it is frightening to hear a cult expert say that you see all of these signs right now today in american politics. >> but wake up. this is what's happening and our democracy is at stake here. freedom of the press is absolutely vital for a healthy country. and anyone like him that says press is the enemy of the people, that's what hubbard would say.

that's what moon said. that's what la reusch said. why? because their demagogues. >> finally, the first step, if you say this is a cult, what's the first step of deprogramming? >> the first step with anyone who's a true believer is contact with people that are outside the bubble. cult leaders want to isolate their people. they want -- they want family and friends to just disappear rather than keep engaged. hey, did you read this article? what do you think of it. you know, i'll watch one of your shows, watch one of my shows. in other words, appealing to the person's true self, their authentic self, that wants to be a good person, that wants -- that believes in america and democracy and truth. >> for the people who are dreading thanksgiving, you're saying it's an opportunity to get together? >> exactly. let's -- we're family. we're friends, let's talk. and you know, truth will out. truth will stand up to scrutiny.

>> you can hear the full conversation, seen if you agree or disagree with them. it's up on the "reliable sources" podcast at "reliable sources".com. what a week it has been. cnn is recapping the entire week of the impeachment testimony with a anderson cooper testimony. in the words of the witnesses, hosted by anderson cooper. we'll see you right back here this time next week. game, set, match. democrats set to move to the next stage of impeachment after two weeks of public witness testimony. >> was there a quid pro quo? the answer is yes. but with no house republicans on board, have democrats convinced the american people. adam schiff joins me next to discuss. and preparing for battle. republicans on capitol hill remain in lockstep against impeachment, as the president says he's ready for a trial. >> they're doing something that the