and i'm thankful. >> i would have gotten beat up 20 times more if i was harvey. thank you very much. >> good seeing you. >> i hope you enjoyed this interview with howard stern. his best selling book howard comes again is out now. >> welcome to the malcolm gladwell interview. he's written five best selling books about subjects like snap judgment, success and under dogs. a sixth book looking at situations we're all faced with on a regular base sis. called talking to strangers. what to know about people we don't know. a look at how common it is to jump to the wrong conclusion. often with dangerous or deadly results. if you think you can tell when someone is lying to you or can judge someone based on a direct encounter with them, you'll learn that you're often wrong. he draws on many well known case from the false murder charge

against knox in italy. and cuban spies who fooled the cia. to the world's largest scheme. how so many people were fooled for so long. just because they're human. this misunderstanding has real consequences when it comes to police, judges and juries and others who have to make important decisions based on false assumption. why humans have never evolved to better detect liars and why it's good nor society. i sat down with malcolm gladwell. abili about his book and life and family. and why he doesn't write about american politics. >> you don't discuss politics. social media and politics you don't talk about. it's so written about you don't have anything specific to add. with politics is it just a lack

of interest? a lack of it's so polarizing. it's not worth going into? >> it's like what's point of writing a book if you declare a bias early on that has the effect alien ating. 95% have no ideology cal orientation. i'm interested in having a dialogue and intel chul dialogue with people on where ever they are on the spectrum. i think it's pointless. there's a will the of -- by the way. >> i enjoy reading something that has nothing to do with politics. >> it's a deliberate choice. as a canadian, when you meet them go out of the way to emphasize the things they have

in common. stranger accounts first five minutes what do we agree on. we love hockey. americans do the opposite. they don't want to talk about what's in common. they want to emphasize where they -- >> more in common than we have -- >> huge amounts in common. it's a crazy strategy for society. to set itself up so people want to -- even the most -- if i took app upper west side lab ral and a maga hat wearing person from alabama. and compared the list. 90% of the things they would be in agreement on. >> a tweet said what did we talk about before trump. i forget. >> people say i don't want to talk about trump. and then within five minutes they're talking about trump. and i'm listening. >> i swear to god it's why i'm a

sports fan. trump doesn't come up. in discussions of the nba. >> that's the language i understand. >> i don't understand when guys are talking about they're like did you see the game? it was great. how does everybody know what the game is? it seems like there's -- >> you're. >> a billion games going on. espn 47 has a volleyball tournament on. >> that's not the game. he organized a dinner which had the hilarious guys. charl main the god. and pete buttigieg. i said to tommy, what did they talk about? he looked at me like an idiot

and said fantasy football of course. it's the most fantastic thing about sports. secondly it kind of does it makes me love pete buttigieg. it's not a political statement. >> you have to focus on sports. >> he's a legit, he can talk fantasy football. my hat is off to him. >> i don't know what that is. i have ideas. but none of them are close to the reality. >> in addition to reading like novels in norway. he's watching monday night football. >> there's a couple things you said about politics and one of the most disturbing lessons is the u.s. isn't open to the idea of a woman in power. do you think that was something specific to clinton being -- in the past she was unlikable. people were going vote for her. some did not necessarily love her. do you think that is still the

case? >> well, we'll find out. >> women in power have to be different, they have to not seem as ambitious. >> i would like to think the constraints on the way women are allowed to behave in public life are gradually loosening. i saw the -- i was at this meeting and one of the speakers was that the secretary of the air force. heather wilson. and she is this really really gracious, thoughtful, brilliant. you meet her and your first thought is she skould run for president. a glittering resume and she's humble and amazing. at the same time i said that, there are the ewe universe of men who could run for president

is this big. for women they have to thread a really narrow window. there's still that's not fair. and that's wrong. we do it. maybe it's a reaction to the way we know the society is. you shouldn't have to be as perfect as heather wilson to be a presidential candidate. >> there's a mold on women they need to fit to be a leadership position. >> it's not that hard to be considered for a leadership position if you're a man. >> have you written anything about trump? >> no. never. >> never will. you have an episode call moral licensing. something does something good and because they have done something good they feel they are allowed to backtrack on it? >> yeah. more or less we see that with women. a woman will be a group will let

a woman in as a member or leader. and having done that feels free never to have a woman again as a leader. it's like you or you hire one black person and say look, ooip not racist and never hire another one. or that's the idea doing a small good act and frees you up to return to your old ways. important idea because i think sometimes we're fooled into thinking that when changes happen, when one small change happens it's a sign that many more good things will happen. it's not the way history works. sometimes a small good thing happens and allows society to take two steps back. >> applications for the political world? president obama. >> sure. a black president. and then okay, i have demonstrated i am a open minded liberal person. and then immediately after wards, the country goes in another direction.

i came close to talking about politics. >> you're a big spy fan. what you thought about the latest about this high level russian source. that's gold. >> yeah. it's extraordinary that i tell in my book two spy stories. i pick them at random. they have a basic -- the other thing is the best thing is in spy novels they're all about how brilliant the spy is. right? the spy is a mast ere mind and evil general use. this and that. james bond idea that the -- >> you read a lot of spy novels. >> all of them. the world spy i have read it. in real life the spy is success is not due to the genius. it's due to everyone els blindness. like the spy novels all have it backwards. most are really lame.

one of the most famous spies in history did more damage to the united states security interest than anyone in the era. he was a terrible spy. he was terrible at his job. he had medium reviews he was a drunk. he just spent the money. living in northern virginia on a government salary. and driving a fake mercedes. and getting tooth capped. this is proof i begin with the story of the what happened in cuba. >> i didn't know about this case. >> it's hilarious perfect spy story. a guy defects kind of -- haiigh cuban intelligence. he goes to the american embassy and i have something to tell

you. they take the frankfurt to the debriefing center. bring in the former cia chief. they bring in this guy called the mountain climber. a legend. one of your spies who you relied on is his name was such and such and worked for such. he was working for us. and then this other guy he's spying for you too. he was here. and working for us. they were getting more shocked. he keeps going. and it turns out 48 spies the entire group of spies that the u.s. had recruited inside cuba. to spy for us on behalf of the american government. had all been working for castro. >> if not -- you write about how the cubans had video tapes of cia case officers making drops and under fake rocks.

and knew actually took sent the double agents on a tour around a tour around havana. and duped america. >> this is this it's proof of the reason i tell the stories is i'm interested in this notion of why is it so easy for human beings to be deceived. and here we have the extreme case. if anyone shouldn't be easy to deceive it's the cia. they are expecting to be deceived. they have trained people who go around and figure out who is deceiving them. they are a sophisticated multi-billion dollar organization. yet, they have been deceived left and right over the course of history. >> if they can be deceived, as a reporter you like to think when you're talking to somebody you can get a sense of honest or not. after reading your book, i feel

like do we know who we're talking to? >> i don't think we do. ere righ. be the match uses the power of the cisco network to match donors with patients faster than ever, saving lives like max's. me and dylan are dna twins. ♪ ♪ dylan's like my brother. ♪ ♪ cisco. the bridge to possible. - [narrator] forget about vacuuming for up to a month. shark iq robot deep-cleans and empties itself into a base you can empty once a month. and unlike standard robots that bounce around, it cleans row by row. if it's not a shark, it's just a robot.

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one of the premise of the book is we greatly over estimate our ability to make sense of somebody who we're meeting for the first time or whom we have limited experience. so there's a great gap in other words between we're good at friends and family. that that's what we're built to do. give me 30 years of my best friend and i met 50 years ago last week. so i have known him for half a century. he -- i know him backwards and forward. all of his, it's hard for him to fool me. i know when he's upset because i have that time spent. and human beings give us that

much time and experience with someone and we're good. but those same tools that we use to make sense of that information over 50 years, betray us when we meet someone for the first time. that's a huge by important over looked fact. >> somebody has done a mass shooting or killed somebody or done something extreme. neighbors and friends always say he's not the kind of person e thought would do that. or dies by suicide. i never thought this person would do that. is that because we don't really the way people present themselves all the things we think we can read, we really can't. >> the transparency problem. i did this fun thing in the book where i took an episode of friends. and i gave it to a psychologist an expert in cataloging human

emotion. >> when i read this section, i thought i cannot imagine malcolm gladwell watching friends. >> i will watch friends. and i will the thing about -- >> you went deep on friends. >> i went deep. if you watch friends the plots are complex. and nonetheless we can follow them. a million things are happening. the question is why. i had a psychologist take an episode and break it down. and catalog the facial expressions. every time they have an emotion it's perfectly represented on their face. when joe is angry his lips tightening and brow furrows. when she's surprised her jaw drops and eyes go wide. and her eyebrows go up.

they are it's so easy to follow. they are telling you visually everything they're feeling. you can fall into the trap thinking thaths way human beings are. that's not the way we are. there's a huge difference between the way actors act and human beings. most people do not, if i did something right now to shock you. and asked what happened on your face when i pulled out a baseball bat and i crushed that can of coke next to you. you would have said and probably leapt out of my chair and my eyes must have gone up here and i'm sure my jaw dropped. i guarantee your face would do none of those things. you were probably like this. >> different people react in different ways. >> i find when things get more stressful and chaotic. i become focus ld and quiet. and organized.

>> yes. you were a wartime correspondent. that is you can't be wartime correspondent if you don't have the reaction to high stress situation. right? if your voice go up two octaves when you're terrified. how can you report when you're squeaking? >> that was a large explosion. >> the viewer who watches you week in and out gets to know this fact about you. under stress you have the particular reaction. and we may warrant that. that maybe what we like about you. if i nefrt never met you before and saw you react to a stressful situation with the calm face, i might think you are cold and unfeeling. i might think what a guy completely indifferent to the suffering around him. you're engaged and that's how

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let's start with what got you kind of thinking about this and focusing on this. and i guess it was bernie may doff. is that right? >> a combination. and the one who the only one who

realized that at least who came forward and said he was a fraud. he was saying it for ten years. before they realize it was true. he was the voice in the wilderness and writes after he was caught. he becomes a hero and testifies in congress. he wrote a book to describe his experience. if you read the book you realize, first of all he's brilliant. he saw the truth behind it. he's also weird. right? deeply weird. and by the end he describes how he so incredibly paranoid. his suspicion is why he was able to see the truth behind ma doff. >> he's suspicious of everyone? >> everyone. and it means that after he turned him in he becomes convinced that he's going to have him killed. and becomes convinced the sec is going to break into his house with guns drawn and seize his

documents because he's embarrassed them. he's sitting at home armed to the teeth. up at night with his gun chained to the door waiting for the agents to come. as if they had -- you get a window into his psychology. i went to see him and that's wla he is. he's not embarrassed about it. he's someone who sees that darkness the potential darkness in every situation. and my point in telling that story is he is highly unusual. so he's not gullible like the rest of us. he pays a price for that. the price is really high. and you think you want to be him. but you don't. >> it's interesting. the last time i saw you i ran into you at a thing in texas. i mention that my mom is a huge optimist and she saw the best in everything. and always kind of imagined the best thing was yet to come and great things are around the

corner and everybody has good intentions. i mention to you i consider myself -- not pessimistic. but i consider myself a catastrophe. and my moms way is better and leads to a better way of living. than my, i'm more of a m-- >> what are the odds you'll have a life as happy as your mom? >> definitely not. yeah, no. >> you observed this role model of optimism and the exact opposite. >> i was there peddling under the water to keep us -- >> she was long before you came. >> there's the default to truth. that you write about. >> this is the theory.

an idea from a brilliant psychologist. at university of alabama. what he says is he's trying to solve the puzzle of why are we so bad at knowing when we're being deceived. we are bad. there's no question. human beings are not good as this. his answer is because it doesn't make sense because you think evolution would have prepared us. you would have thought people who were good at telling, deceiving them would have an advantage. but that is not the case. his point is the reason for this is actually the evolutionary advantage is being like your mom. that if you trust everyone, your life is so much more efficient. and you're capable of doing so much more. and capable of forming so many more meaningful relationships and you can start businesses and put your child on the school bus in the morning and not worry about whether the bus driver is who he says he is.

you can do these things and as a result that's the advantage. the cost of that is every now and a again somebody will cheat you. so what. if you're an optimist shrug it off. >> that's an anomaly. >> a small price to pay for being trusting. >> society functions because of the default the society would not be able to function if most of us believe the best. >> we don't -- there extraordinary society that human beings have built over the last thousands of years is built on trust. >> in the book you focus on two key ideas that there's the default to truth and transparency. the idea that the way we present ourselves that you can tell by talking to somebody face to face if they're lying. what kind of person they are. what they're actually thinking.

where they're coming from. we can't do that. >> the example of friends. so, the actors are perfectly transparency. trained to be that way. joe looks mad when he's mad. in the real world, that's not the way people behave. we expect them to. i have a chapter on aman da knox. it's all about transparency. she goes she's a teenager from seattle. does a year abroad in italy. she's been there a couple weeks. her roommate is murdered. she gets falls under suspicion immediately. why? there's no evidence linking her to the crime. 18 year-old girl from seattle engages in a murder sex game. also a death. the whole thing is farfetched. it's based on the fact that she doesn't behave in the after math

of the roommates death the way the italian police expect someone who just been through that experience to behave. >> the police they say this. one of them was talking about the lead investigator talking about look at her and her -- she didn't seem like somebody who was innocent. >> yeah. which is such non-sense. >> it's interesting when you point to an interview diane did with knox. she asked her about the way she acted in the wake of the being accused. >> diane sawer. she's doing something we all do. she couldn't none of us even after knox is cleared, and it's 100% clear. she had nothing to do with that

murder. when she was interviewed she was still forced to account for her behavior. as if it was relevant. >> for all intents and purposes i was a murderer. >> why did you kiss your boyfriend in the waiting room of the police station. when you were -- why did you buy under wear. as if none of that is -- the idea people should have to defend their own actions. is crazy. why can't we accept the fact that people are different? did you get a whole thanksgiving? well you remember what happened last year. you can't bring a backup thanksgiving to my sister's house. it's not like we're going to walk in with it. we'll bring it in as we need it. ...phase it in. phase it in? yeah, phase it in. phase it in? ♪ still fresh... ♪

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the case of sandra bland is one that you focus on in the beginning and end. and what you're looking into is the yous of how the default to truth and transparency played into what happened in this interaction between police officer in texas and sandra bland. explain this happened in 2015. she was in texas for a job interview. which she got. and was pulled over by a police officer. she was african-american the police officer was white. >> he's -- this is in the wave of cases of african-american police encounter cases that

start with ferguson. and go through garner and hers is in the middle of that. it was the most in my mind, the most emotionally affecting in some ways. >> the interaction is caught on dash board camera. >> we have the entire conversation. you can find it on you tube. that's the text of the book. that conversation between the two of them. it starts out it's the middle of the day. a texas town. police officer pulls her over. walks up to her window. and a conversation ensues. and what happens is she is very upset. and he misperceives her disstress as being somehow threatening and they get into an argument. she lights a cigarette. she won't put it out. he yanks her from the car and arrests her.

puts her in jail. she commits suicide three days later. it's heartbreaking. in every time, that encounter in my mind is this perfect inkapslation of a modern problem. 100 years ago she's from the same town as the cop. same age. both 28 i think. they would have gone to high school together. he would have pulled her over and say sandy. >> where you grew up in canada, same thing. you knew the police officers and knew you. >> they were all friends with my parents. i had been pulled over in my hometown. that's the conversation that happens. the officer coming up and it's like john. father of somebody i go to school with. sergeant says to me, malcolm what are you doing? do you know how fast you were driving. now a situation where neither of them have never met.

one is from chicago one fl texas. a man and woman. one has a gun one feels vulnerable. one is in a car one is moving. all the ways it's imbalanced. what we have done is asked a police officer to make a very consequential decision in the whole thing is over in two minutes. two minutes. he has to decide to make understand who this woman is and street her in the way he thinks is appropriate. treat her -- it's a lot to ask. >> he doesn't have a default to truth. >> no. what we want i think is as police officers who do what the rest of us do. which is give people the benefit of the doubt. the assumption the person is telling the truth. change a mind when evidence becomes so overwhelming there's no way -- that's a very healthy attitude. and if police officers had that attitude.

by the way in many situations they do. or historically they have. they wait to hear the story and -- what happened in the last generation american police takes a u turn and we do the proactive policing. we have encouraged police officers to very aggressively go out in the world and cast suspicion on otherwise innocent activity. on the grounds that if you go on these fishing expeditions you will in some percentage of times turn up a gun or drugs or bad behavior. this is a case that is symbolic of a universe of interactions. a problematic between authority and many people african-americans often. that are trouble because of the way we have set up the systems of law enforcement. and it was don't turn this into another one off story with a whacky woman and evil cop. and corrupt small town in texas. no. that makes it allows us to

dismiss it. let's take a step back and understand we are in some senses implicated in this. we built a system of law enforcement in this country that proceeds on assumptions about reading strangers that are not true. ♪ and i'm done with hesitating let's see where this goes? save on a gift that says it all. ♪ jared i'm finding it hard to stay on a faster laptop could help. plus, tech support to stay worry free. worry free...boom boom! get free next business day shipping or ...1 hour in-store pick up shopping season solved at office depot officemax or officedepot.com.

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just wondered if you learned anything after his death. was it what you expected it to be like after his death? >> well, you would know, having gone through this yourself recently. it is always harder than you imagined it would be, and you are nearly presented with this problem that you've never had to think about before, which is how you keep the memory of a departed loved one alive, right? i mean i had never -- that's something i had never even -- never even realized was a category of things you had to think about. to me the most distressing part of grieving was the notion -- was the fear that i would fail at keeping his memory alive. so even little things like the book begins with this story of my dad, which i tell because i think it fits, but also i tell because it's a way to keep him alive, you know, to kind of --

>> tell the story because it's -- >> my parents would come -- so my dad was an engineer -- a mathematician, and he was, as you would imagine, he was an absent-minded professor. he had no understanding whatsoever of anything to do with popular culture. so as i joke, i would always put my parents up at the mercer hotel because it's the celebrity, you know, center. the idea of my two adorable parents, you know, universe of people none of whom they recognize was just hilarious. so one time i pick up my dad and said, what did you do this afternoon? my father is english. i had a lovely discussion in the lobby with a chafrming man. >> so your dad was somebody who would talk to people in the lobby? >> oh, he was quite chatty. i said what did you talk about? gardening. he said, the only strange thing was people kept coming up to this man and making him sign little bits of paper, taking pictures. so it's clear that it was someone famous, but of course my father didn't know who this

guy -- had no clue, and he couldn't -- i asked him a bunch of questions. i couldn't get -- all i know are the following facts. one is the person was probably within my father's age range. >> mm-hmm. >> so an older man. >> mm-hmm. >> probably english because my father's great delight was discovering other englishmen far from home. that just made his day. so we have an englishman who would have been born in the 1930s who was a fan of gardening and who was so famous that even at the mercer, people -- like the mercer is a safe haven. but you can't go in the lobby unless you're staying in the hotel. so even within the safe haven of the mercer, people were coming up to this guy and asking for autographs and pictures. so it's a very small universe. >> paul mccartney? >> yeah, but why is mccartney at the mercer? someone recently said to me

michael caine. i wonder if michael caine is watching, tell me was it -- >> in the book, you put an appeal out to whoever this may be, to contact you. >> long beard, english guy, who talked about gardening. >> it's interesting you said about the story thing. one of the thoughts i've had recently with my mom's death, my dad, my brother and my mom, all the people who made up my strange little family growing up are gone. and i suddenly thought it's a very strange feeling to be the only one left who remembers the stories, who remembers, like, all those little moments that were the -- you know -- >> did you tape your mother telling -- >> i did. i shot a documentary with her and wrote with her, so there's a lot -- yeah, there's a record of if. but, you know, my dad died when i was 10, so i don't know how much -- i talked to stephen colbert about this recently. i don't know how much what i remember of my dad is from -- he wrote a book about families and his family, and i don't know how much of it is just from that

book and how much is stuff i actually remember. i'm not really sure of my memories on what's real and what's not. >> do you think about this question of how you keep these memories alive? >> oh, totally, yeah. and also, i mean, i always expected to die at 50 because my dad died at 50 of heart disease. now i'm 52. i've been told i'm going to be around for a little while, and it suddenly -- it's been a huge -- i suddenly am sort of like i got to think of -- like i never planned beyond 50. >> this is the catastrophist in you. you assumassumed. meanwhile your mom lived until -- >> 95. >> you have cause for optimism if you have a 95-year-old mom.

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you said you're an introvert. i'm an introvert. why are so many introverts on television? >> why are you asking me that question? >> because you say you're an introvert and you're on television. i'm trying to figure out myself. people ask me that question all the time. also why do introverts, and i do this, always talk about being an introvert? >> well, first of all, okay, so let's unpack this.

being an introvert doesn't mean that you are not -- you don't need to to perform or like performing. it merely means that performing is costly. >> i agree with that. >> we're just engaged in a costly activity. so is working out. >> the way i interpret that is i need to, like, rest if i'm in a social environment, i then need to take some time afterward and just -- >> exactly. >> -- be by myself. >> for every minute i spend talking, i need to spend at least ten in utter silence. >> i totally agree. >> whereas an extrovert is the opposite. bill clinton, the more he talks, the more he wants to talk. it totally makes sense so long as we -- but it just means we say that because we don't want people to confuse us with the extrovert who is so energized by a one-hour interview on television that we want to go to a bar and meet people. we're just saying, don't confuse me with that person. leave me alone. >> and every minute that ticks by in this interview, you're going to have to pay an

additional -- >> both of us. >> i'm going to nap as soon as we're done. i'm so excited about that. thank you very much. >> thank you, anderson. >> malcolm is an incredibly interest guy. his book, talking to strangers, is out now. i'm anderson cooper. thanks for watching. my first announcement is one i think you've all been waiting for. >> politicians have been lying and bull [ bleep ] and flip-flopping since the beginning of time. >> i'm the best. only i need to understand. >> i'm mostly pissed off that not enough people are pissed off. >> politicians are very visible and they tend to be liars, which is great, so you can really go after them. i [ bleep ] hate those [ bleep ]. >> it's making me angry and i feel like screaming. but i'm unsure about how far my neck veins can safely bulge out of my neck. >> political humor now that it's become such a farce, it's hard to outdo it.