welcome to reliable sources. this is our weekly look at the story behind the story with big guests coming up today. including jim lair who covered the nixon and clinton impeachments. hear was view of the trump impeachment coming up. plus gretchen carlson is here to share her anti-nda initiative and react to nicole kidman playing her in bomb shell. and later craig whitwell is here with lessons learned from this century ice version of the pentagon's papers. we're starting with how did we get here? how did trump get here? how his sources of information

led him astray. led him off course. i think it's pretty easy to make the case that we ended here at the brink of impeachment because of the bogus information trump was watching and reading. of course, his choices, what we did with the alleged information, the alleged shakedown, all that, that's all his own doing. he's responsible for what he did. but what he was hearing from right wing media was crucial. the conspiracy bent of his favorite talk shows was critical. this ukrainian house of lies is built on two main theories. one is that ukraine interfered in the 2016 election. that's a theory that kind of lets russia off the hook. and then the other theory is the bidens are up to no good in ukraine, even though there's no evidence of wrong doing by the bidens. this has been swirlging around in trump's head and peddled by trump's own lawyer 'others who talk about it on fox. sometimes they took bits of information that was true and then blew them up to much the

information became distorted and misleading and manipulated, like this one from january 17th. this is a story that started it all. it said ukrainian government officials tried to help hillary clinton and undermine trump. this story was limited in scope. it described what yovanovitch called isolated incidents by individuals in ukraine. it did not allege a top down campaign of ukrainian meddling because there wasn't any. hannity leaned on this story for months and months even after the co-author said what the ukrainian officials did is nowhere near what russia did. russia attacked the election. ukraine did not. but hannity kept talking about that article. in fact, he still talks about it like this month. >> we've been telling you politico uncovered a massive, huge scandal. >> politico, they issued a report. we have politico -- >> the politico pointed out,

politico reports in detail. >> it's no wonder why trump harbored a grudge against ukraine, one of his best friends in the media was harping on it. enter john solman. he worked with rudy giuliani to light the fuse of the ukraine scandal. there was a key moment in march when he was on the show with trump's pals and hannity and pushing out anti-biden assertions and backing up the anti-ukraine theories. during this segment right here, trump's pals also trashed yovanovitch which was foreshadowing her removal. they were later asked about the article. it says was it based on accurate information. kent said it was primarily nontruths. an unreliable source. so unreliable the hill is now reviewing autowork on this sujd. but we know trump was watching on that night in march. we know because trump tweeted

out this exact headline right after hannity's show and of course, trump was citing john solomon in the show that night. this is one illustration of how we know the right wing media mess and misinformation was influencing trump. but it went on. i mean, this feedback loop kept looping. the hill kept labeling columns as opinions. but trump and others trumpeted them as fact. so did rudy. >> it's a big, dramatic story. i guarantee you joe biden will not get to election day without this being investigated. not because i want to see him investigated. this is collateral to what i was doing. >> sure it was. now, that clip was from may. rudy and his allies kept raising the volume about biden and ukraine all spring long. in june questions about aid money arose. why? according to washington post trump saw an article from the right leaning washington examiner titled pentagon to send

$250 million in weapons to ukraine. there's the article. and the rest of this tael is well documented. the phone call when trump says do us a favor was informed or misinformed by years' worth of anti-ukraine commentary on his favorite shows and months worth of anti-biden bombast. but this protrump media bubble did not help trump. to the contrary, it led him to the brink of impeachment. let's talk more about this and what's different about this impeachment versus the past three times the country has been on the edge of this cliff with me here today is the columnist for the new yorker, the dean of the school of business who oversaw the network during the major coverage of events and tara, formally a contestant on the apprentice. >> what is different than these years and the nixon years? is it the conspiracy thinking

that's dominated the scandal? >> i think that's part of it. i think the bigger part of it is is that i think in previous impeachments we had the sense that everyone involved lived in the same reality. everybody was on the same planet. and there could be a discussion of what actually happened. and once you landed on what happened, that meant something. right? here we have been witnessing two nonoverlapping realities. in a couple of different ways. one is that in a sense, in the entire impeachment inquiry there has been no disagreement about facts. the facts were known up front. right? we had the readout of the phone call before any of this began. right? so in a way, it was an investigation. it was an argument about interpretation which actually makes it different from other trump yan events. right? we weren't arguing about facts. it was -- and the arguments

still continues in one universe, this is an impeachable offense. this is outrageous. this is almost unthinkable. in another universe, it's like whatever. >> it's wednesday, it's sunday. >> it's wednesday and there's so much else going on including ukraine. i think that's where the right wing media din comes in. the function is not so much to create a different narrative. the function is to say nothing is true. anything is possible. what are you talking about when there's something else to talk about? >> and when we say conspiracy theories, it's important to know the ukraine theories are not just conspiracy theories. they've been backed up by a russia disinformation campaign to try to confuse people about what happened in 2016. >> i object to the idea that we call them theories. relativity is a theory. a theory is a hypothesis reasonably proven over time. this is a disinformation campaign. i think one of the failings of

our contemporary media and it's a difficult challenge is we're not calling that out enough. just calling it a conspiracy theory lends it a certain credibility. i think what has been talked about so well, these ir reconcilable realities that the country now lives -- we talk about polarization. it's deeper than that. there are two competing world view realities. and they are -- we do a disservice when we serve those up. i have to tell you on this very network. >> what do you mean we serve them up? >> on this network rick santo m santorum, a paid analyst of this network sat on camera and said when the president uttered the words, i would like you to do us a favor, he wasn't asking for a favor. he said that repeatedly, those words. well, that's gaslighting. that's trying to sew deep confusion in the american public about what is actually going on

in the world. and that takes us to a very dangerous place. tara, i've seen a number of congress people talking about this, concerned about this situation we're in. the representative from maryland said to the new yorker the evidence is overwhelming. i feel our constitutional argument is airtight. he said i feel like we have not broken through the ideological sound barrier that connects to the half of america watching fox news and thinks donald trump is draining the watch rather than swimming in the swamp. that could be an argument for democrats. adam schiff went on fox earlier. i wonder if that's part of the issue. democrats have to have courage to go and talk to the other america. >> well, i think -- i think there's a three powerful forces here at work. i want to just take everything and pull it together. we have the russian disinformation. right? that didn't exist in any of the

other impeachments. right? so you have that. you compound that with social media which is a huge force right now in people's lives. and then you compound it with on top of it, i said disinformation, social media, and then fox news. then you have a fourth force, the entire republican party in lock step pushing all of this consolidating all of this into a disinformation strategy. i think it's important to point out all four of these forces are working together. and that they are impenetrable at this point. i'm not sure it's a question of democrats not going -- more democrats go on fox news than republicans go on other networks. >> there is a lack of courage from gop leaders right now. i'm talking about mitch mcconnell, kevin mccarthy and others turning down almost every single tv request they receive. hannity is not doing tv. neither are most of the gop leaders. there's a fear of going anywhere but fox.

it shows a lack of courage. i would add a fifth element to what you described, trump's twitter feed. put on screen tweets and retweets. 123 tweets this week. we looked at december 12th. he's really -- something has changed. he's tweeting a lot more often. i don't think it's a coincidence trump is about to hit the 15,000 mark in the washington post survey of false and misleading statements. sometime later this week he'll top 1500. the more he talks, the more disinformation he'll spread. it makes the challenge for those of us at the desks harder. >> absolutely. you wanted to ask about the differences. let's go back to a december friday 19 years ago when bill clinton's judiciary committee voted four articles of impeachment. the broadcast networks owned about 50% of televisions on in the country in the evening news, and they did about 25 minutes of combined coverage with nine

reporters. last friday, about ten minutes of coverage. fewer households watching and this whole alternate reality is where the news is happening. and i think one of the challenges for journalism at large is to understand that telling the truth is only part of the challenge. figuring out how to get the truth to audiences is a different challenge and the world shifted under our feet dramatically. the president, let's just remember, has 67 million direct audience viewers at the tip of his thumbs. any time he wants them. >> right. final thought on what to expect in the week ahead, how this is going to be perceived when the vote happens on wednesday? >> what worries me the most, actually, is that i think that since about a week ago, when we saw the legal experts testifying in congress, i think we've been in new territory which is the sense that reasonable people can disagree about whether he should be impeached. >> right. >> i think this was testimony in

the judiciary committee. but i find it absolutely terrifying. right? and i see that trump is positioning himself to the sort of -- to the fringes. but you don't have to believe trump's tweets in order to be a reasonable person who thinks that maybe we shouldn't have rushed with impeachment. maybe we should have heard witnesses stone walling who had firsthand knowledge, et cetera. i think this is terrifying. i think we're going to be seeing more of that kind of morass. >> to the panel, thank you. we have jim lair standing by. we'll hear his perspective about how this impeachment is being covered in just a moment. i'm your 70lb st. bernard puppy, and my lack of impulse control,

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♪for the holidays you can't beat home sweet home.♪♪ we go the extra mile to bring your holidays home. president trump said on friday my poll numbers have gone through the roof. the roof of a dog house, maybe. the truth is the poll numbers are stable but historically low. it's been that way for a long time. opinions have hardened like quick dried cement including on the impeachment topic which is why trump might not like the brand new poll from fox. it's just coming out. it says 54% of americans say they believe trump should be impeached. just 41% say he should not be impeached. there's been no movement either in trump's favor or against him. what does that tell us about america and about the role of the media? with me now is jim lair, the

veteran journalist. he was covering the nixon impeachment inquiry, the clinton impeachment and now here we are on the brink of another impeachment vote on wednesday. jim, what do -- the polling numbers we've seen again and again, poll after show showing people are fixed in their positions. what does that tell you about america in 2019? >> well, it's a story that been there from the very beginning. i would say the last three or four years ago the story of division, the division that existed within the electorate, within the populous here it was a story that was missed by we, in other words, mainstream press did not cover it. when donald trump announced he was going to run for president, and immediately said oh, by the way, barack obama wasn't born in the united states, we, the mainstream media, the established order said oh kr, w,

forget it. every step along the way, he's going to get it. even to the point where he became the republican nominee, well, hillary clinton is going to win. so we in the established order used our own prizm to judge this and suddenly the divisions that trump, he didn't create these divisions. they were already existed. what he did was took advantage of them and is still taking advantage of them, and in some -- and obviously is making meat out of it. i mean, this is his political life blood is the division. and those of us who are now -- i'm pretired but i'm still -- i feel like when i always use the word the pronounce we, we're covering the division now and in the process, it's a double edged sword for us, as you know. >> you commented to us the media is in the middle of a revolution. what kind of revolution is it? >> well, it's a revolution that is based on the division.

and we haven't gotten -- we are still -- we are still trying to cope with it and trying to figure it out. for instance, cable television news including cnn but also fox and msnbc, this is good for their business. this is good for your business. because division is the story in the country right now. impeach the impeachment process is the most dramatic manifestation of this, and the more the impeachment story is covered, and each one of the cable networks covers it and of course mainstream beyond that, washington post and new york times, the three commercial networks and the pbs news hour, everybody's covering the division. and the division is good in a way. on the other part of the thing is how do you deal with a division that is based on things that are considered lies? >> right. >> and how do you report lies in a straightforward way that doesn't also put you on one side

or the other of the division? and this is the revolution is how the mainstream, the old fashioned pain stream press no matter how old they are or whatever is to how to report this, and we haven't figured it out. it's all kind of okay, we're going to call this a lie or not this a lie. this and that, and by the way, we're even handed. and by the way, we have old fashion jernliournalism values, this. it's in the middle of a revolution. >> during the water gate years in the 70s, it felt i think the history books say the country was transfixed. the people are on the edges of their seats. was that true? right now i think the country is just fatigued by impeachment. i don't get the sense that something that is so big for this country, which it is, doesn't feel that way. it almost feels tiring, small. >> well, the reason for that, brian, is that probably it is even a larger audience, a larger

interest than there was for clinton's impeachment or nixon's impeachment, at least at this stage in the process. but it's no -- those things were television events. nixon's impeachment and all the processes that led up to his resignation for television events. same thing with clinton's impeachment. trump's impeachment is not a television -- television is only part of it. social media is also part of it. and all the other things that -- the new -- the other revolution in communication and technology has made it -- people are following the debates over the -- over the impeachment of trump, but they're doing it each in their own way. in other words, they're using their own prichs to watch it and they're watching different things. a little snippet here, a little whatever, reading different things or maybe not reading at

all, but they're not gathering around the tv set to watch it like we did in '73, '74, and like before that with -- i mean, yeah. '73 be w nixon and also with clinton later. we're not doing that anymore. we probably never will again. >> it does feel like social media is the x factor in the impeachment, the internet in a number of ways. thank you for sharing your insights with us. >> my pleasure always. coming up here, a woman who launched the #metoo movement was a domino effect. she was the first domino. gretchen carlson is here to share what she's doing next in just a moment. ♪ i thought i was managing my moderate to severe crohn's disease.

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a brand new movie bomb shell is bringing the 2016 roger ailes sexual harassment back to the forefront. when gretchen karl son sued ailes and launched a movement. now carlson is launching a new organization called lift our voices. they are demanding fox release

them from nondisclosure agreements that used to be common and often sometimes are common. gretchen korlsen carlson is wit. it's been more than three years since you received a $20 million settlement. you're not allowed to talk about fox as part of the settlement. >> that's correct. that's the way sexual harassment cases in the workplace have been resolved. we're in a cultural revolution as a result of women finding the courage to come forward. if i had it to do all over again, i would have fought harder to not sign the nda. but how could i have known we would be in this position or this have these movie projects about the story? there was no way for me to know what was happening in the next hour. i see this as the next phase of the revolution that women want their voices back. it's time that as the majority of the population in the united states of america that enough is enough. we want to say what happened to

us as a way of moving this forward for our next generation. >> when you sued ailes, this was before the harvey weinstein scandal and the rest. in fact, it was because you sued ailes and he was forced out "the new york times" looks into bill o'reill o'reilly, and then weinstein. it was a snowball rolling down the hill as you sued ailes. back then it was a different environment. >> when i jumped off the cliff by myself, you know, torrona burke coined the me to phrase, but there weren't a lot of women doing what i did. people say why didn't you do it earlier? it was an environment. it was the biggest decision in my life. the most brave thing i had to somehow find the courage to do. a lot has changed and we've made so much progress. that's why we wanted to form along with others lift our voices. this is a way to eradicate

nondisclosures and give women their voices back. have you joined yet? look up. it's lift 797979. >> talk to us about fox. you're trying to get this to be bigger than fox. >> this is not about me. this is about helping women across america and across the world. and i hope that people have been proud of my efforts over the last three years and the work i've done to benefit women. my dad taught me a valuable lesson. actions speak louder than words. and i hope that my actions over the last three years, trying to pass legislation on the hill and take secrecy out of arbitration out of contracts. now eradicating ndas. i hope people are proud of the efforts to help women. because that's what this is about. it's not about my singular story. it's about giving women, your daughters their voices back. >> i asked fox for comment about the nda issue. they declined to comment. do you think they might follow

through and free everybody from the ndas? >> i don't foresee that in the immediate future, however, as we are working on lift our voices now, the next stage of that will be to put together legislation. and what i have always said is look, to companies out there in america, don't you want to be on the right side of history for women? when you employ more women, you increase the bottom line. when you pay them fairly, the same thing happens. do you want to stop silencing them? get on the right side of history and don't make us have to go to the hill topaz legislation to force you to do it. i mean, i think companies now listening, they should pay attention to what we're saying. >> the news pack for the initiative is the film bomb shell. it opens nationwide next weekend. have you seen the film? >> i haven't had a chance. i launched this initiative in hollywood next week. i plan to, but again, this is really not about me. i think it's very important for people to know that i couldn't partake in any of these

projects. >> you weren't able to participate. >> is it strange to see nicole kidman on screen? >> it's surreal. if you would tell me who was playing my character, that's amazing that these very skilled actresses have agreed to do those roles. >> i've noticed some people think you're being paid for this. your point is you're not able to. >> that's the point for lift our voices. women should be able to tell their own stories whether they're painful or happy. and especially in 2019 as we move into a new decade. don't we want to do what's right for women in this country? i know i do. >> do you even recognize fox news anymore? >> i don't watch fox news. >> you worked there many years. it's changed. >> i don't watch fox news. i've really enjoyed having this time away from a daily show and being able to watch you and many other outlets to gain a fresh perspective. and as you know, i'm back in television. i'm doing documentaries, and i have other announcements that

are forthcoming in the new year, and i really want to be a beacon of hope for all the women out there who simply for having the courage for coming forward with sexual harassment, they never work in their profession again. as a nation we should be outraged. i want the voice for them. >> gretchen, thank you. >> great to see you. >> happy holidays. a programming note. the director of bomb shell will be here this time next week. zblnch a story about a movie that's controversial. richard jewel, the film hit theaters this weekend. the lead character isn't the only victim of misrepresentation. we'll talk to someone who says a late reporter was dramatically depicted in the film inaccurately. ♪ oh, ho! oh, ho, ho, ho! you... you got me. uh, what do you want? i've got uh, ai robots, i've got vr goggles. i want your sled, please. no. [ chuckles ] timmy.

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controversial film richard jewell hit theaters this weekend and released by cnn's parent company warren ere media. it's had a low box office turnout but is getting attention for taking dramatic liberties. it claims to be based on the true story of what happened to the security guard suspected for a while of orchestrating the centennial olympic park building. he was exonerated. more than 20 years later the atlanta journal constitution says one of the papers's reporters is misrepresented in the film. an attorney for the paper sent a

scathing letter to warner brothers demanded a written statement acknowledging the liberties taken. why does the paper say the movie is inaccurate and what is warner brothers saying in response? we have the editor of the journal. and also with us brian lowry. kevin, what's the issue with the film? what do you say is inaccurate about the film? >> i would tell you there are plenty of things in the film inaccurate about how journalism gets one, but the one that's been most offensive is in the film our reporter who broke the story is portrayed as getting that tip on the story by promising sex to an fbi agent. there's no evidence that that ever happened, and it's just an unbelievably offensive hollywood trope that's completely

unnecessarily used in the film. >> the real life richard jewell sued. it was years of litigation over how he was misreported about. you're saying the film makes the same mistakes? >> yes. i think it's really important to acknowledge that what happened to richard jewell was terrible. this film offered a great chance for people to understand what happened, how it happened. how we can be better in our coverage and law enforcement and media consumers, but it makes no sense to just destroy the reputation of one person to do that. the film commits the sins it tries to accuse the media of committing. it makes things up. >> here's a response from warner brothers to your letter. the company said among other things it's unfortunate and the ultimate irony having been a part of the rush of judgment over richard jewell is now

trying to malign our film makers and cast. brian, you reviewed the film for cnn, what did you make of it? how much of this issue affects the rest of the film? >> well, i think it really sullys the film. the film operates on two tracks. the part about richard jewell which is sympathetic to him and well done is offset by the way the fbi and the media are such caricatures as his tormentors. i really don't think you can divorce the movie from the broader context. here's a movie that although it's set in the past, is -- it deals with a situation that shows the media and the fbi in the most unflattering light possible at a moment where both of them are basically under siege. and when you throw into the fact that clint eastwood is outspoken

about his conservative politics. he gave the empty speech to barack obama at the 2020 convention, it feels like this is a movie designed to show the media in an unflattering way at an awkward time. >> at the same time the issue about rushing to judgment, it's a lesson that needs to be constantly relearned, doesn't it? >> i think it's a really important lesson, the richard jewell case for all media and people who consume media. we have stories every day where we have a question about whether there's a rush to judgment and how important is it for the public to know? we know the public wants to know things. the example i give that's currently in the news is how many people out there are demanding to know who the whistleblower is? it's another example of this urge to know things that later probably we wish hadn't worked out that way. >> that's interesting. back to the issue about how kathy was portrayed and it's even more painful because she's

not here to defend herself anymore. there was this moment on fox where jessie waters showed how little he knows about journalism. here's what he said about this controversy. >> it happens a lot, and it happens a lot in movies and tv shows. just a list right here. fletch with thank you for smoking. top five, how to lose a guy in ten days. it's all over hollywood. >> that's part of the problem. journalists are not out there having relationships to get information with sources. this is not common. and the fact that hollywood pretends is common is part of the problem. >> historically it's been a real issue. the movie i think a lot of people go back to and that i immediately thought of was absence of malice. it's a movie where sally fields sleeps with her source and mucks everything up. and female journalists have spent years trying to get away from this sort of question of them using their sexuality in

order to get stories and here we are in 2019, and not only is it being depicted but according to everyone, associated with kathy skrugs that's being depicted in an outright false way. >> right. if people see a different movie this holiday season, what should they say instead? >> i know you don't have much time for movies with two little kids, i'm going to recommend the irishman. i'm going to go join some of our subscribers. we're going to watch the movie and do a q and a with people who subscribe to the atlanta journal constitution. >> that's interesting. >> we can answer the questions they have about the movie. >> i think the movie is worth see, but any other recommendations? >> well, you talked about bomb shell. that's not a bad film. and you may have heard there's a movie called star warz opening next week. >> yes, and full coverage of that one on cnn.com. brian, kevin, thank you both.

>> thank you. when we come back, the modern day pentagon papers. how did "the washington post" unearth the afghanistan papers? ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we needed somebody to lean on ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ all we need is someone to lean on ♪

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in a nonstop news cycle where it seems like nothing sticks "the washington post"s release of the afghanistan papers did. it has broken through. that's a very good thing.

the post published a troe of interviews with hundreds of interviews and officials involved with the war in afghanistan. they were conducted by an obscure agency. starting monday the multimedia rollout let people lead and reason and watch and everything. there's all these ways on the washington post website to understand what the papers reveal about how the public was misled. i sat down with the investigative reporter who spearheaded the post's project. craig whitlock said it began with a tip about a single interview about michael flint. >> this all started with an old fashioned tip. we got a tip that michael flynn, the retired army general had given the unpublished interview with an obscure government agency about the war in afghanistan. and you have to remember back in august of 2016 michael flynn was becoming well known, maybe even notorious for his support of then candidate trump. and his dislike of hillary

clinton. but when he was in the military c flynn was known as a pretty straight shooter and someone who wasn't afraid to criticize how things were going within the ranks. so we were curious what he said in the interview. and we put in a public records request under the freedom for information act. we thought we'd get our hands on this soon. the long and short of it is it turned into a three year legal battle. >> it's interesting it starts with a single tip about a single interview. and then snowballs. you never know when a single tip is going to lead you to something. >> and this one we didn't know, because we were just pulling on the string. and we kept pulling, but it was hard. and once we got the flynn interview, he was really forthright and blistering in his criticism about how it was portrayed to the public. he said time after time by the time the public mes sanning was given to the american people, they were always told we're making progress and doing better, we're winning.

he said the intelligence reports from the ground made clear the complete opposite that we were losing. and he said it was almost a crime what had happened. how the american people were misled about the nature of the war. once we saw that, we were like we want to see the other 400 interviews. we knew then, i think, that this was potentially a very important story. >> i used to think during the height of the iraq war that when we were covering u.s. military claims, government claims, they should come with a warning label, warning sticker that says governments often lie during war time. yet we don't want to believe that sometimes deep down inside. and we hope history doesn't repeat itself every single time. but you're saying, greg, it's pretty clear from this interview that history did repeat itself again. the country was lied to for years. >> they were certainly misled. that's what the power of these afghanistan papers is, i think. we knew and had reported that the war wasn't going well.

just the fact that you have a war that takes 18 years, by definition, that war is not going very well. certainly many of the problems have been reported on all suits of news media for many years. what was different about these papers was the people in charge of the war, the people running the show, so to speak, they had these grave misgivings and doubts about the strategy, about the mission, about how things were being portrayed. and they were just enormously blunt about it in these interviews. that, i think, gives them the power of the contrast between what the american people were being told in public and what these same people felt in private. >> hear more on this week's -- president trump has a question about chuck smith and i have an answer. it's the reason our whisky is so extraordinarily smooth.

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before we go, one more thing about the president's faulty information. this is about cable news. he tweeted saturday night some insults about msnbc and cnn,

saying the ratings are tanking. here is the truth. comparing 2019 viewership to 2018, cnn and fox are up in prime time, down in total day. there are no signs of tanking, sliding, the typical fluctuations. then he said how is shep doing? he's loving life now that he has left fox, feeling relieved, went on a long vacation, and is having a good time. that's the answer plrks president. your sources of information continue to fail you. that's all for this edition of "reliable sources." see you back here next week. eel♪ ♪ to bare my skin ♪ yeah that's all me. ♪ nothing and me go hand in hand ♪ ♪ nothing on my skin ♪ that's my new plan. ♪ nothing is everything. keep your skin clearer with skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months.

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