i'm chris cuomo.

we have a new day of arguments and newer surprises. today as main player comes back to potentially haunt the trump defense. our special impeachment trial coverage continues right now. the elephant in the room. what would the trump defense do when it comes to dealing with the obvious elements of what's in the news about bolton and what would they do. here's a look. >> if a president, any president were to have done what the times reported about the content of the bolton manuscript. that would not institute impeachable offense. nothing in the bolton revelations even if true, would rise to the level of abuse of power or impeachable offense. >> now. i was surprised that you heard

even that from the defense. i didn't understand why they want to introduce bolton at all. arts they talked about bolton and opened the door. that doesn't apply here. this is about politics. talk about what's good for you and ignore what's bad for you. this bolton situation at least optically is bad. if you're a senator who is nervous about what to do and you hear that someone being kept from you as a witness direct will spoke to the president about exactly what he's being accused of. that's tough. so, now we have more news dropping on this. about what is in the manuscript. from bolton. what is it? not only does bolton suggest that he spoke directly to the president, we don't know if he can prove that. the president says it's not true. he says he went to the attorney general and said that he felt the president was granting personal favors to autocrats in

different countries. not ukraine specifically. turkey and china. he says that the attorney general was equally concerned and pointed to informations that were going on with specific companies in foreign countries and saying he was worried that the president was exerting undue influence. how come nobody said anything? let's bring in the a team to weigh in on the situation. andy mccabe. they brought up bolton. i didn't think they would. i'm trying to combine idea of what he means in a case in terms-over legality. and what he might or might not mean in this particular theater. >> any any normal case to find out on the eve of the defense presenting their case that there is another witness, a direct witness, who heard statements

from the subject of the case, subject of the investigation, making incriminating statements especially in a situation like this you had so much criticism there isn't direct evidence. about witnesses and it's hearsay. here you have a witness who is coming forth with direct information that is highly relevant to the one of the central allegations of the case. and the idea that that witness will not be heard from is ridiculous. in the normal criminal case. this is not normal. it is politics and a trial in senate. not in federal court. so where this plane lands i don't think anybody knows. >> what's being argued by the defense team and republican senators is even if this all happened and bolton heard what he heard and did what he did shlgs they're not crimes. it's not impeachable. dershowitz accented that today.

your take. >> my take when i heard that, it was a dependent on the rest of his argument which is any quid pro quo that's done with any kind of policy goal even if there's a personal benefit or some mixed motive. is not a crime. it's not impeachable. and my take was that what is there to investigate with joe biden? he has the same defense. he can claim the same thing. he was working on behalf of the obama administration. dershowitz kind of under cut everything that the other lawyers had been saying earlier in the morning. i think he threw it out there because he had to address the elephant in the room. it destroyed the rest of the case they were making about why the bidens needed to be investigated. >> the defense obviously you don't bring in fact witnesses who can't know anything about the facts. not that kind of trial. they want to bring in the

bidens. we hear. because if we can show that there's stink on the bidens what the president did is okay because he believed there was stink on the bidens. we just showed you. the way he did it is irrelevant. >> it makes no sense. the issue is why the president asked for that investigation. for the announcement. he thought it was good for the united states or wanted a personal benefit. what is biden going talk about? what he did and how much he got paid. he doesn't know what trump was thinking. or trump other than the rest of us. he doesn't have special individual knowledge about that. his testimony is irrelevant here. >> so, yes, but, if they wanted to and they vote for witnesses, and now there's a process. that process is entirely up to

the senators. it could be irrelevant. republicans say it's good. say it more quiet. they can have whomever they want. it's about number than any subjective qualification for the personal who is called. >> that's right. a lot of what's going on even today is political theater. the lawyers are trying to engage in talking points and trying to make the political case for the themselves and appeal to the base. make the president happy. they're also trying to argument about the law. somebody who cares about the law my concern is the more they push the political kis, the more of a mess they make about the law. if they succeed politically and get the acquitle. the law appears to be torn in pieces at the epd of the trial.

>> should the democrats think about what happens if we have witnesses. do we change votes? what do we expose vs. the house and what happens if they get joe biden on the stand for four, six, eight hours. asking him about things. the chance of a mistake. >> that is part of the calculus. of course everybody is playing to different audience. democrats house managers are playing to the senators. they're making the post important case to the american people. if and when joe biden appears. not sure he will. he'll understand this is a political trial tor theater for himself as well. it's not just happening in the room. it's how it will play with the american people. he'll keep an eye on that. >> when we come back let's discuss where are we now. what difference has this made. even the bolton and the big developments about the book.

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now, you cannot forget the strategy component and the political component to all of this. the president's team knows that most of you aren't going watch this wall to wall. maybe you will see some distance there for between the arguments. for example, the president's phone call with ukrainian leader. the white house counsel started with this on saturday. >> the president did absolutely nothing wrong. >> okay. on monday, former white water independent counsel robert ray said this. >> i know that many of you may come to conclude or have concluded that the call was less

than perfect. and i have said on number of occasions previously and publicly that it would have been better in attempting to spur action by a foreign government and law enforcement efforts with our government to have done so through proper channels. >> now, that is actually what he thinks. he said it on this show. what are they doing what is the effect? we have a group to talk about this. wel go around the horn again. why isn't that just obviously inconsistent argument. what's the strategy. >> well, it seems mr. ray is the wounl who is willing to embrace the reality of what happened on the phone call. if you listen to the arguments today about particularly the arguments put forth by pam and hunter biden and joe biden and the pile of innuendo and

suggestion that corrupt things took place there. if that were the case if there was a single credible allegation of corrupt practices by hunter or joe biden. the proper place for those allegations would have been to the department of justice. it's not ever to go to direct to a foreign government especially one o whose criminal justice is legendary corrupt as ukraine and essentially heave the fortunes of a u.s. citizen into the jaws of that justice system. we don't do that. we investigate people here. we have the laws and the agencies to do that. the trump administration took no effort in that direction. and that under mines their argument now. that they were merely seeking some sort of coordination on corruption. >> something for everybody strategy. cipollone nothing wrong, perfect. ray, wasn't perfect. even if he did all the thipgs the wrong way, it's not

impeachable. because he didn't commit a big crime. you have pam. don't forget the real criminal. the bidens. something for everyone. could be effective. seems to be with the gop. >> yeah. i think it's ironic their argument is you must stick to the evidence record created in the house and a lot of what they put out there is not in the record. because they never brought any witnesses into the house. there's irony there. it will come down to questioning. if the democrats can be strategic in the questioning and not go down the rabbit hole of challenging the president's lawyers. but asking their own lawyers the assertion made by the defense. and let the house managers bring up the clips again. the video that will contradict everything that they put out. that could be very effective. the trats aren't always great

about being strategic in that way. i'm worried they'll go down a rabbit hole. >> that's clever. i'm surprised to hear it from you. because you know what the problem is. you're too smart. you are so smart in the analysis and so sophisticated, and that's why i love you and need you on the show. here's my point. they're like creating this argument for senators who are desperate to get out of this situation. they couldn't be more i don't care which way it comes out. and secondarily their audience is people who will never absorb it in this way. because they don't care. and they won't get the concepts because they're complicated. the whole is inconsistent. as contemptible.

he did nothing wrong and if he did it doesn't matter. he didn't commit a crime. >> it's all really about the sound bites. these republican senators need something to say. a reason to give. >> they have been echoing it. >> that's why this whole bolton thing threw them for a loop. talking points were called into question. they need to get comfortable again. it's a shame that the house managers won't get a rebutle period. that's where you stand up and be like this argument, no. wrong. and go through them systemically and quickly. instead we'll have the questions. i hope the house managers use the time proper lichlt there's no immediate follow up. they go to the judge. it will be very awkward and not going to work very well in terms of getting rebutle points in. i worry the talking points

republican senators are getting will stick. >> how effective can you be in this questioning period of senators questions and in terms of vetting the argument? >> i think the questions have to be very specific. hopefully they will reference actual theories or statements by presenters on the defense team. you can imagine a democratic senator saying i'd like the house managers to address the claim from miss bonn di that biden took whatever action. and that would tee up the house managers to focus on that theory they want to kind of cut off. hopefully we'll get specific questions like that. that are directed to theories or statements of some of the defense presenters. again, it's a really shaky process. it's kind of hard to imagine how

it will go forward. >> my immediate thing was ask about would you stick to the obvious. the defenders have been helpful in terms of cross questioning. by saying things that aren't true. they could have had all the people if they want. things like that. that was my instinct. is there a risk that nobody is vetting this on the facts. i'm not cynical. those who feel we don't need witnesses it's not because they blooe everything the president is sag saying. they think it doesn't amount to what it need to. >> two completely different narratives. like two ships passing in the night. for the house managers it's the evidence they'll present. that's the factual record. it's good for them. for the president's lawyers, facts don't matter.

they have a different narrative. your hearing it. political talking points. it could be a few things president has done or white house lawyers have done. which open doors for the house managers. they won't waste a will the of time nick picking arts. their audience is the american people. the white house is audience are the base. and the senators. that's what each argument is tailored for each audience. >> i want talk about this more. i bet it will come out. the best the most compelling was ray. there was space to say it's not perfect. but here's why it's not enough. thank you all very much. a gift to the audience and helping us understand what matters so much. more ahead on impeachment. first, it's been 24 hours and there's still a will the of unanswered questions about what

took the life of nine people in this helicopter. and of course you know the fa. kobe bryant. the incredible layered loss of him losing his young daughter. and the eight people. why did this happen? and in why has this taken the world the way it has. we have someone here to help us shine a light on why this nba super-star is so much more than just that. a friend, a teammate. who loved him, next. she wanted to move someplace warm. but he wanted snow for the holidays. so we built a snow globe. i'll get that later. dylan! but the one thing we could both agree on was getting geico

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it's hard not to be thinking

about kobe bryant and hopefully all the victims of sunday's helicopter crash. it's going all over the world. the empire state building here in new york lit up in larkers colors. the shrine in the philippines. mourning the death of the black mamba. for all the danger that that suggested about him on the court. it was the love that he gave off of it. the sincerity the intelligence and the drive. that is what's really resonating with somebody who is bigger than the game. now, butler. hef not only a teammate. he was a friend, he was a father, raising kids with kobe. a brother. and a mentor. this is why he says kobe must be remembered. >> thank you so much and i am very sorry to meet you under

these circumstances. >> it's tough. just sitting at home this entire day surrounded by loved ones and positive energy. and just reminiscing and sharing stories about my brother. and his beautiful daughter. >> is it helping you to talk about it, to tell people who he was and help really cement the legacy of the man who you knew, let alone the ballplayer. >> yeah. i think has helped a lot. i have been crying, i have been emotional. and high and low. somewhere in between. my grandmother strong woman of faith, she told me don't question the lord will. and ask why. in the beginning i was asking why. i was asking that question. but now i'm just trying to find some resolve in the situation. and tell everyone to pray for the bryant family and the family

of the so many more that lost loved ones in this devastating tragedy. >> this is i guess we put something like this under the category. the mystery of faith. we don't know why this happens. you have to trust there's some meaning somewhere. but the man, the father, the friend that you knew. when did you meet him? >> i first met kobe when i was playing the gim of basketball that i love. and i remember in one of the off seasons after my rookie season, i came to l.a. and he was training. he was always at the uy l.a. facility. and the boys and girls club. just i admired him and wanted to see his work out. his legendary sessions. and i wanted to understand the method to the madness and the secret recipe. he gave me all the ingredients.

he showed me in realtime. he became my teammate and big brother and mentor. someone i can lean upon at any time. >> what was the depth of what he was willing to share? and what he meant to you man to man. >> he was everything. honestly. i take numbers and accolades aside. he was just unbelievable human being. i think a lot of that gets lost in the story telling when you talk about kobe. and he was an unbelievable husband. unbelievable father. unbelievable friend. someone you can rely on. elevated the people around him. and believed in the people around him. he was a visionary. he saw things before it happened. and i'll never forget our conversation that we had in sacramento. during his farewell tour.

he was talking about all the things that has come into fruition. writing books and being a best seller. one day holding up an oscar. he accomplished that. and given a platform to his daughter. and the creating the mamba academy. and inspiring lives. that's what he was doing. his work will continue. >> love this kids. they're young. some very young. gigi the one who had taken at this point most to basketball. what was that bond like. what was it like for him and her to bring her down path of basketball? >> it was precious to watch. it was special. i'm a fur of four girls myself. father of four myself. we always communicated or text we were talking about that. i have a daughter as well that loves the game. and all she was talking about is going to the next level one day. and playing in high school and

he was talking about the importance of fundamentals sp spending time with his daughter. and just elevating her and making her understand that you have to put in all the hard work and the sweat. and he was with her all the time. that brought him back around the game of basketball because of her passion. he began to love the game again. and he started coming around the game more and coming to the court side to study the game with her. >> for him it was about her. that's the beautiful part. when you think about starting to come to grips with what you have lost. what's the hardest part for you in this emotionally? >> you can't put it into words. i lost a big brother. i lost a friend. i lost someone that was always an asset to my life. far away from the game of basketball. and when i arrived in l.a. many

years ago, back in 2004. he told me that we'll be friends long after basketball. and we shared a lot of things in common. and he was always just someone i could rely on. he made time even when he didn't have time. that's a true testament to who kobe bryant was. and you see the out pour of love. all around the world. globally. not just in professional sports. people in all walks of life just talking about what a great person, individual he was. and that's what he stood for. that's his legacy. and his legacy will continue. through all the loved ones and everybody inspired by his hard work. >> now, this maybe a little tricky. i have read that he didn't have a lot of basketball buddies. some say it was because he was so intellectual and intense.

you were one of them. what made you special? >> we had an honest repoir. honest relationship. i have never been an individual to judge anybody with a conversation i have with somebody else. i want to see for myself. the narrative was created about me long before i came on the platform. my adversity i went through in my life. so i never fell victim to that phrase of judging someone from reputation. and when i immediately arrived to l.a., i just want ld to pick his brain. i played for the legendary pat rilely. he was telling me things and conversations about how to prepare for the game of basketball. and fast forward i come to l.a. i'm playing with arguably the greatest ever to play the game of basketball. in realtime. watching this preparation.

i'm seeing him preparing for big moments that look like routine shots. this dude is on the next level. i embraced them. i never shied away from work outs or being educated or being told the hard truth. that's how we just jammed immediately. >> what are you telling yourself? how do you make it okay? >> it will never be okay. i think in order to move forward, i have to get out my own way. my emotions, my feelings. i have highs and lows. i surrounded myself with loved ones and i'm thinking about his family. his wife and kids. how to help them. and how to be strong for them. and i don't want to talk about basketball. i want to talk about what a

great human being he was. and that's what we continue to do. all the stories that we're sharing at the round table with my loved ones. we talk about the moments that we went up and had he sesame street at his home and our kids enjoyed the moment. we shared stories and trying to get through this window of hard time. forever going forward it already hard for the family. we have to be there for them. all of us. >> that's what friendship is about. what would he tell you to do? >> keep going. that was his advice. stay goal oriented. i recall when i felt like i was feeling myself in my career. i had a major accomplishment. individual accomplishment and i was happy. and i rested there. what are you going to do next. what's next. now, that we dealt with

something so devastating and the love and support is there. it's real. and we see how much is legacy meant to the world. globally. not just sports. now what? what do you do. what do we have to do collectly to comfort his family. and be there for them. that's what's next. >> i am so sorry for your loss. i hope that the friendship and the lessons and the stories stay with you. he was so young. you're so young. so much life in front of you. i have hope it helps. for you to achieve what's next. as your friend would have wanted. god bless to you and his family. and your own. >> thank you. >> you have to feel for everybody that lost. there's nothing right to stay in the these situations. i know i have suffered loss. you feel for the people because there's nothing to say. we shouldn't forget who else is

lost. kobe bryant, his yuoung daughte. and he has three other girls. think about the challenge of are minding that child who her father was. she won't have the memories the same way. that adds to the tragedy for the mother and kids. the pilot. he was so well trained. he was a certified instructor and instrument trained. we don't understand this. he's gone. a family traveling to play. they leave a son and a daughter. now they lost their mother and father. imagine that challenge for young kids. sarah chester. mother kp daughter. they played on the team too. she was a ballplayer. they're gone. think about the family. assistant girls basketball

coach. also assistant coach on bryants mamba team. a husband and three kids. and when we get caught in the situations the reason it's important to remember. he was only 41. his family just broken in a way that's hard to repair. so many families were broken. and has to give the rest of us perspective about a appreciating what we have. you never know. no matter how good you have it. how quickly it can be gone. we're searching for answers. did will spend days at that crash site. i don't know if you look at the flight path. there are weird things going on. i'm not speculating. we have answers to get about why this happened. too many who have been affected not to. ahead, you'll hear the account of a witness.

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what happened? on this helicopter flight that killed kobe bryant and his daughter and these ore good people. the ntsb is investigating helping to piece everything

together. we're using witnesses as well. listen to one. >> what did impact of the helicopter sind sound like? >> it was not very loud. you could hear the crashing of glass. the thing that stuck in my mind when it impacted, the rotors stopped immediately. there was no secondary. they weren't breaking off and hearing things fly off. it just all stopped. the clouds were low enough that the helicopter went in right at the cloud line. he must have just come out. he flew straight into the hill. i didn't hear malfunction. it's hard to control a helicopter in a hover. you have to have command of the aircraft. i think he just want disoriented. he didn't know where he was. >> cnn safety an lis is an

accident investigator. from what you understand at this point shs how did this make sense? >> it really doesn't, yet. there's still so many questions i have about it. if you look at flight path and listen to the witness. they're contradictory. everything about it. this helicopter is well equipped. the pilot was extremely experienced. and there was really nothing wrong with what was going on at the time. people are speculating he was in the clouds and couldn't see. it's too early to see. the flight path of the aircraft doesn't make sense. he climbs very steeply towards the end and falls steeply. that isn't the way you react in a cloud situation. orb low visibility. it doesn't make sense that's the cause. >> he was instrument rated. he didn't have to just use what you call vfr. visual flight rule. why would he have been asking to

do so. flying so low. instead of higher and depend on the instrument? >> what he was flying under is actually special vfr. that means he's below 1,000 feet. you have to request that to the tower. because you say the surface of the cloud ceiling reduced or limited itself down. you want to call before you take off. and make that plan. in this case it was vfr. he had enough visibility. when he got the special clearance he went down below the 1,000 feet mark and get below the clouds and see where it was he was going. >> when you see the circling and this path far away from where he was spended to go. what does that suggest? >> the circling typically in the area. you hold in the area and make sure you're clearing. or holding waiting for the

clouds to come up or down. that circling is not the sign of disorientation. if you notice the circling was in one spot. it was clear he knew where he was. it's not going 200 yards one way or another. it's in the same area. he breaks off and up the side he could have been holding for traffic or visual or again waiting for the clouds it rise before he asked for that special clearance. >> obviously so many families ruined by this. we'll need more answers hopefully it comes. there's not a black box. when we know more i'll come to you. >> the impeachment trial. obviously it's a major focus. it must go into next week. if they're going to be witnesses. if there aren't, could be shorter. could end this week. and then lead right into the iowa caucus.

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here's one potential reason why you heard about the bidens today in the impeachment trial. >> iowa caucuses are this next monday evening. and i'm really interested to see how this discussion today informs and influences the iowa caucus voters. the democratic caucusgoers. will they be supporting vice president biden at this point. >> ron, what is your answer?

>> talk about saying the quiet part loud. there are some voters who worry about the smoke around hunter biden could create problems for joe biden running against donald trump. but this shows that most republicans are concerned about joe biden as a possible opponent. whatever is going on with biden in the polls, he's generally maintained a consistent lead when voters are asked which one of the nominees would have the best chance against trump. and in the polling, biden does run better usually against trump than any of the other democrats. >> what will matter on the ground where you just were in iowa? >> you know, look. you know, the question really, i think, as is often the case, is

turnout. 2008, we had the biggest turnout ever in the iowa caucus. double what it had been before. 2016, it rolled back. biden is competitive at a lower turnout. to me, the core question is, if he gets really big, where does it get really big? if it's primarily college towns, that benefits bernie sanders. and a lot of the suburban white collar voters, if a lot of them show up and they're kind of the principal driver of increased turnout, that could benefit buttigieg and warren. >> how big of a deal is it to lose two weeks for the senators? >> it doesn't help.

but i think the cake is pretty well baked in iowa. i know the famous joke about people saying, i've only met them all twice, how can i decide? but people have had their chance to look at the candidates. it's a tactical disadvantage, but the people have had a chance to evaluate the candidates, and i don't think it's that big a e demerit. >> what is the chance of a shocker in iowa? >> always. a caucus is a weird beast. it's not a primary, there is the whole reallocation question of candidates that don't reach the 15% threshold. who doesn't reach it? if klobuchar doesn't reach, that may benefit biden. you can imagine that happening. and the bigger question for me, what is the impact of iowa on what comes next? the last four iowa winners have won the democratic nomination, even when new hampshire has gone another way.

i don't think that's a coincidence. i think it's largely a function of the media, there's enormous value in dropping that first rock into the pond and all the ripple that flow. but gore, kerry, obama, and clinton subsequently ran very well with african-american voters. it would be kind of a new situation we've seen at least in this century. >> that's such a key insight. it's not just the result, it's how the result plays in the media, who they talk about more. more importantly, who they talk about less. thank you very much, ron. appreciate it. the rest of you, keep it here for special coverage of the trump impeachment trial. more highlights from the defense arguments. day two, next. tums chewy bites with gas relief all in one relief of heartburn and gas ♪ ♪ tum tum tum tums tums chewy bites with gas relief

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chris cuomo here, you're watching special coverage of the trump impeachment trial, day two now over. the defense team, fast and furious attacks own the bidens. acknowledgment that, yes, bolton could have some dirt on trump. and the return of ken starr, but he's in reverse, now. let's bring in some great minds to break it all down. michael, good to see you here, r.