rooftops were not rich, white people. why? why is that poorest people always pay highest price? >> "ac-360" starts good evening, i'm anderson cooper, thanks for joining us. we heard from the president's coronavirus task force, u.s. death toll now tops 18,000 people in this country. white house believing that the peak may have been reached or soon will be reached. there is some disagreement about that on the coronavirus task force. let's go first to cnn's erika hill standing by. sorry, nic is standing by. what's the latest? >> reporter: hey, anderson. we had a strange afternoon in

california. governor of the state saying that peak is not going to be as high as feared, then we heard from l.a. county, they extended the so-called safer at home order through may 15th, another five weeks from now. and they were at pains to say that may 15th is not a magic date, not promising to lift all restrictions when that rolls around. of course meanwhile so many people are fighting a daily life and death battle with this virus. there are triumphs, cheers for the recovered. numbers in new york's icus are actually down for the first time. some encouraging signs. >> we're starting to level on the logarithmic phase like italy did about a week ago. because of the impact of what the citizens of new york and

new jersey and across connecticut and now rhode island are doing to really change the course of this pandemic. >> reporter: but still so much pain. tara gabriel's mom, now gone, more than just a statistic. >> my mother was a real person, she was loving and selfless and kind. >> reporter: in new york now the bodies of unclaimed covid-19 victims being taken to hart island for burial. official death count of more than 5,000 in the city could be undercounted with people dying untested at home according to the "new york times." that state now has more confirmed reported cases than any country on earth according to data from johns hopkins university. in l.a. now you have to wear a mask in a store. >> if you're not covering your face by friday morning an essential business can refuse you service. >> reporter: but in florida think of reopening schools.

>> if we get to the point where people think we're on the other side of this, get kids back, even for a couple of weeks, we think there would be value in that. this particular pandemic is one i don't think there's been a single fatality under 25. >> yes, people under 25 have died of coronavirus disease in the united states of america. >> reporter: florida's governor has walked that back. a little. >> in florida, no fatalities under 25. >> reporter: starting tomorrow in michigan if you own more than one home, pick one and stay there. illinois warning all big events could be canceled until there's a vaccine, months or a year away and discouraging church services. >> today is good friday, earshot sunday, we have to stay inside. >> reporter: but in kansas governor in legal battle hoping to limit church services to ten people. >> need to congregate is

important, but not during a pandemic. >> reporter: and testing remains an issue weeks into the pandemic. one study of 51 coronavirus patients, current test missed 16 of them. antibody test is said to be days away to identify those recovered and potentially immune and able to return to work, but can the country start to reopen may 1 as the president hopes? and what might be the toll? >> don't let anyone get any false ideas. when we decide at a proper time when we're going to be relaxing some of the restrictions, there's no doubt you're going to see cases. >> may 1st, which has been floated by some people in the white house, how much is that at this point just aspirational goal to begin some sort of opening up? and how much of that is any basis in reality? >> reporter: i mean the first

issue is what the governors of individual states want to do. putting that aside for a second, president clearly is aiming for that date. but dr. fauci said today, the virus kind of decides. and he says that he and the white house task force team look at all the data every day, take that information to the vice president and the president and any decision on opening will be made at that level. and you know, today the president was asked, will you listen to your medical advisers. and he came back with this, he said i listen to them about everything. i think they're actually surprised. anderson. >> he also went on to say he listens to them but also sees two sides and clearly is going to be listening to members of the business community and business folks around him. he has this -- said they'd announce a business council looking at reopening the country. he probably announce that next

week. nick watt, thanks very much. another big development, coronavirus model cited by white house suggests today is peak for deaths. director of the institute who published the models. health metrics and evaluation in washington. dr. sanjay gupta, dr. lee as well, george washington university. dr. murray, can you explain how you came to the conclusion the united states has reached peak daily death toll? >> that's what our model is saying. we rerun the model basically almost every night. and the new returns from different states are suggesting different peaks in different states but overall at national level we seem to be pretty much close to the peak. our model has pretty even

numbers next four days or so. not going to see abrupt peak and decline but we do see it leveling off. >> and overall projected deaths in the united states, model now projects about 61,500 people in u.s. dying from coronavirus by august. that's compared to yesterday it was i think about 60,000, or earlier this week. if the peak is now, is there a reason the number's a little bit larger than it was previously? >> yeah, it is. some states haven't fully implemented social distancing. we're seeing their peaks shifting out in time. and we're seeing a peak now but decline is going to be very slow as some other states reach their peak later in april and even extending into may. >> from the research and data gathering at this point, when you look at the white house that

had modelling between 100,000 and 240,000 dying at one point not too long ago, does that make sense? at that time i think your model was still in the 80,000 range. >> yeah, our model estimates have moved around as we get more data, get the size of different states more like new york or washington in terms of trajectory, and early returns tell us a lot. remember also in our model we assume that social distance is going to stay in place until end of may. and we've now started to run scenarios about what happens if we take them off may 1st. early returns on that analysis don't look good. >> do you have numbers on that yet? >> we're going to release concrete scenarios by state next week. but it's enough to say if we were to stop at the national

level may 1st, we're seeing return to almost where we are now sometime in july. so a rebound, that rebound doesn't happen in every state because some states are much farther along but definitely a substantial risk of rebound if we don't wait to the point where most transmission is near zero each state. >> wow, want to drill down on that a second. i know you're going to be releasing this next week, but from what you know now, if the model -- if social distancing that currently exists, as you said not in every state, if it does not go until the beginning of the june, then there will be a rebound in some states akin to what we're seeing now with high number of the deaths for instance in new york. >> that's what our first round of modeling suggests. we'll be able to give more

precise information next week. but clearly the risk of rebound is very great with early release from closures. i think the big issue is when can some states transition to something that gets people back to school and work. and it's states like washington that have got the epidemic peaked and starting to come down it seems that are going to be able to think about that transition sooner than states that are the peak is yet to come. >> dr. lee, what do you make of the idea of -- again the president doesn't necessarily have the power he's saying he has to -- he can issue guidelines for states coming back online and economic coming back online but a lot of it up to the governors and local officials in each state, but given what you're seeing, do you think it's reasonable to think early may you could start giving

up some of these stay-at-home orders? >> anderson, i think that would be extremely dangerous. you know, in the d.c. metro area for instance, we do not think that the peak is going to happen this week or next week, but potentially even into june. we're seeing the social distancing is absolutely helping but we are seeing this slow and steady continual uptick in numbers of confirmed cases and numbers of deaths. and just as dr. murray said, it's going to be a different situation in different regions across the country. i think it would be extremely dangerous to lift the social distancing and mitigation strategies we're doing right now. especially when we don't have the widespread testing and contact tracing strategies implemented yet. >> sanjay, where do you come down on this? >> yeah. it's interesting that we think of the united states as a

country obviously, but there's many different scenarios in different places. i'm wondering for professor murray, if i could ask a question, one of the things that struck me and i think anderson too, it's good news we see the projection numbers come down, professor murray, but just wondering, is it that the social distancing mechanisms have worked better than you thought they were going to work or are you surprised at how well people have actually abided by it? what do you think is driving the numbers down? >> i think two factors. even just two weeks ago there was only wuhan city in china that had a widespread epidemic peaked and come right down. now we have another 18 places in italy and spain that have peaked and come down. that's telling us a lot of information about time from

implementing social distancing to getting to the peak. that's feeding into the models and that's making us much more confident about when the peak is likely to occur. other thing is there are states like california and washington and others where the trajectory has been very different than new york, more gradual increase, lower peak, and we believe it's because people started to social distance even before mandates from government were put in place. >> dr. murray, i'm just really, not surprised, but it's fascinating to me how clear to you based on the modeling you're doing right now, about implications of getting back to work nationwide too quickly, that will clearly -- dr. fauci earlier said you would expect to see a rise.

but the idea in some places, returning back to the levels we're currently at would be devastating in terms of people's confidence getting back to work. >> no, i think we put such investment as a nation in trying to get this pandemic under control, it makes sense to stay the course because even those extra few weeks is going to make a huge difference. even when you get to the end of may and you've got most communities with very low levels of transmission, we're going to have to do something after that point. not the closures we have now but we have to have capability to test, contact trace, quarantine, control infection coming in from other places. but there's a huge difference at least in the way we see this unfolding between closing may 1st and getting to the end of may. >> should also say, dr. murray, seems to be a disagreement

certainly from the president and scientists about what getting back to work actually means in terms of testing and contact tracing. and i imagine that will affect the model significantly. because if -- you're relying on significant contact tracing and testing. if that is not the case, president today earlier at coronavirus task force saying in some states you don't need to do that stuff because they don't have a problem, that's going to affect the model in a lot of different ways. >> i think there's a really important set of issues for every state and for the nation to grapple with about scaling up testing capacity, making sure the public health system is able to do the contact tracing, and make sure we minimize the risk, do whatever we can to avoid a resurgence and having to even contemplate closures like we're going through right now. >> yeah, fascinating, dr. murray, appreciate all your

work. as always, sanjay gupta, jennifer lee. up next, report on the factors whether the president continues to support stay-at-home orders past this month. and discussion with california governor gavin newsom sharing with states in need. according to the census, you can complete the census online in no time at all. shape your future. start here. complete the census at 2020census.gov.

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country. president trump said the coronavirus will be one day gone, not that much longer. sat same news conference dr. anthony fauci said now is not the time to be pulling back. joined by jim acosta at white house. magg maggie haifrman and dana bash. jim, you were pressuring him on his talk of opening the country. he's making it sound as if he decides when the country reopens when it's actually state and local officials. >> it was very squishy, anderson. one thing we did ask the president is whether or not he would listen to doctors like anthony fauci and deb birx who talked him into the deadlines. said would listen, didn't say

would follow recommendations. on tuesday talk about new reopening the country council made up of politicians and business leaders and so on. asked him whether it would be bipartisan, he said it would, not many other details. sounds like he's moving in that direction, reopening this country. question at this point is what is going to slow him down? may not be the doctors at this point. because you're hearing the doctors saying the country is not ready at this stage and not sure it will be by end of the month. >> maggie, what do you make of the president's declaration he can override the state stay-at-home orders. when it was question of would he order governors to institute stay-at-home orders, he said he wouldn't because believes in constitution more than anybody else. >> i think it was one of those things he says that's not particularly based on a plan or any legality. also think there's a number of people in his administration who would have a real problem with

federal government trying force that. would be really hard. what is clear in listening to the president, it's not clear what metrics he's going to use objectively to reopen the country. will it be number of jobs lost? number of tests done? cases declining in specific places? these are all real questions. when he was asked about metrics, didn't answer, pointed to his own head and said this is my metric. we're going to see him grappling with this. these are real questions to be fair. there's an economic and mental health toll on this country and i understand why he's wrestling with this. but i do think it's important to for the country to understand what's going into his decision and he's struggled to make that clear. >> you were talking with, what

else did they say? >> just that, when he finally does make this decision. alluding to this with jim. first of all not really his decision to make, it's the individual governors. but he can show proper leadership by making this announcement and decisions along with the governors, key governors. very hard to do with all of them, but key governors in the states that have had the biggest hot spots. source i was talking to who communicates with the white house was suggesting that would be a two-fer. first let's get real, political cover to do it hand in glove with governors, many of whom are democrats. but more importantly to have cover when it comes to the health situation. governors on the front lines aren't going to want to open up their states, restaurants and everything that equals normal life until they're ready. it would do both of those

things. unclear if he's going to listen to that. >> jim, now you have professor murray saying next week -- whose model has been more conservative frankly in terms of death toll than the white house's own model, saying he's releasing a report next week that will show if social distancing and current efforts don't remain in place through may there very well projected to be a return by i think he said july to the current numbers we're seeing in some of the hot spots. >> that's right. and dr. anthony fauci made that very clear. if you loosen or remove the guidelines, do not be surprised if you see outbreaks in certain parts of the country because the virus is still there, whether or not the president wants to get back to work. other thing that needs to be pointed out, the country is not ready from equipment standpoint to reopen. we don't have enough tests. despite what the president was saying in fact challenged briefings all week, we don't

have enough tests, medical equipment. after the briefing today, i was going to email doctors and nurses -- i'm sure you get the same thing, anderson, don't listen to what president says, listen to what we have to say. and what they're saying, our hospital system in this country is not prepared for this whole problem to snap back into another pandemic, even if things loosen up again. >> like you, i get emails and direct messages on instagram from doctors and nurses who can't get tests for themselves, in hospital setting dealing with this every single day. maggie, jim raised important point, clearly the president has a concern about the idea of doing a lot of testing. i don't know if the testing issue makes him -- he feels is an attack on the early failure of the administration and cdc

for to get testing and live up to the promises the administration was making about testing for everybody. i don't know if it's that, he doesn't want to talk about testing. but clearly every scientist is saying testing, contact tracing is critical to being able to get back to work. >> no, that's right. and look the president tends to use numbers way he sees fit and will help make his case. he's using sheer volume of case as opposed to per capita basis which health experts say it needs to be judged on. we're all learning as we go but that's what experts say. i do think it's because the president doesn't want to talk about failures related to testing solidly on his administration from the very beginning. he's continued to ask people, my colleague noah and i reported days ago, continued to ask people why are we still getting blamed for testing? isn't it in the states now?

why is it our problem? genuinely doesn't seem to understand or want to understand why the federal government that had issues with this all along is going to own this. and answer is not keep pointing to mere numbers of tests done. until there is better testing and way to test for antibodies, this is going to remain open question as to how many people can go back to work. >> dana, where else other than scientists, where is the president getting advice from? is it fox and conservative media? >> yes. >> business people he's friends with? people on his economic team? >> all of the above. and the biggest concern among some in the white house, according to a source i talked to today, more and more he's talking to friends on wall street, hedge fund friends and others in financial world who are clamoring for the economy to

reopen again for obvious reasons. they're losing money personally, their businesses are losing money, their clients are losing money. when the president hears that, when he makes his rounds of calls, he comes back and puts that pressure on his political and policy staff and more importantly on the medical professionals in the task force. but make no mistake, there is and has been and we've all reported on this, a split inside the president's team about just how far to go in closures. some people in the white house still think the administration in their guidelines have gone too far. but right now seems to be enough pushback against the voices he's hearing to keep the status quo. >> it's interesting the idea that wall street firms and hedge fund people are pushing him to get back to work. i've yet to hear from the task force about even the basics of getting back to work would look

like. is every company going to have hand-held digital thermometers to point at every employee as they come in the building to see if they have a fever? rapid testing on hand if employee is coughing to test if empl employ employee should go home? haven't heard anything about logistics. >> cdc put out guidelines for essential workers going back to the workplace. some that they shouldn't congregate in break rooms or come to work sick. but when i come into the white house every day, they check my temperature. before i go into the briefing they check my temperature. some of it is inconsistent. yesterday before the briefing they wanted us to take coronavirus tests. i took a coronavirus test that came back negative. but today we went into the briefing room, no coronavirus

tests. at some point the administration is going to have to say to every fortune 500 company, just about every employer in america, this is what you need to do to bring people back into the workplace, kids back into schools, church goers into churches and we haven't gotten on that point yet. all we hear from the president day in and day out is how he wants to open the country again. just going to get down to the details. as dana and maggie were saying, people on the president's team seem to be on opposite sides. >> thank you very much. up next, conversation with california's governor gavin newsom, state so far seems to be weathering the pandemic better than most. which includes preservision... because he said a multi- vitamin alone may not be enough. and it's my vision, my morning walk, my sunday drive, my grandson's beautiful face.

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public health authorities in california say the coronavirus curve is flattening. but l.a. counties extended stay-at-home order through may 15th. also today governor gavin newsom announced slight increase to 541 to death toll. it's thankfully lower than other states in size. fact that california with a 40 million people in the state hasn't had a surge the way new york did, what do you attribute to it? you did get a head start. >> 40 million people practicing social distancing, by and large staying at home, really stepped up to meet this moment. there's no greater nonpharmaceutical impact to bend a curve than people doing just that.

couldn't be more proud of this state. >> dr. fauci said despite progress it's not time to pull back at all. there's other considerations that president and others in wall street and elsewhere have, in terms of california in coming weeks, do you have a broad sense based on what you know right now how long your time frame is to keep the stay-at-home orders in place? >> appears we've not only bent the curve but stretched it out a little bit. we still have seen modest growth rate. today, 2.5% increase in total number of hospitalizations, that's the number i look at every morning, number of people in icu and number of people hospitalized. those are model, which has bought us time, allowed us to procure more assets, care sites and personal protective equipment. it's still too early to say. worst thing we could do is run

the 90-yard dash on this virus. >> right now what are you telling people for the foreseeable future? going to reassess end of april? have you not specified? >> we haven't specified because it's on the basis of the virus and determination of individuals to bend the curve to mitigate the spread of the virus. literally that question is best answered by asking 40 million californians what they'll do to meet the moment next few weeks every hour and day. if we see the modest growth begin to bend in a different direction i'll be in position based on the expertise of our health professionals and where the virus is and more and expansive and comprehensive community surveillance, meaning testing, make that determination. >> if the president decides in coming weeks to make an announcement to reopen the country, white house has been talking about may as a --

somewhere in may. ultimately governors like yourself will be the ones determining when stay-at-home orders will be lifted and to what degree. president said today he could override state stay-at-home orders if he wants. is this a mixed message? how do you interpret this? >> i don't anticipate that will happen, end of the day, i think the government will be led broadly and president will ultimately be led by the facts on the ground, that's federalism, 50 parts, one body. and i get incredible power and potency of his voice but end of the day the practical application of the reality is at state level. i have all the confidence in the world if we made a determination of best interest of state of california to keep people healthy and safe and buy us the opportunity to get the economy back on track in much more sustainable way than short fusing this process, i have

confidence the president will support those efforts. >> "new york times" is reporting today that the new federal projections show a spike in infections if stay-at-home orders are lifted at 30 days, at the end of the month. that certainly is in line with all the scientific advice that's out there. >> look, the worst thing we can do, as we're getting so close to turning the page, turning the corner on this, is get ahead of ourselves, trip over ourselves and see the kind of spike we're seeing around the rest of the world. what more evidence do we need than see what's happened in singapore and hong kong and wuhan profess and elsewhere, people starting to come back out, now pulled back in. we're beneficiaries of those facts and examples. let us not be ideological about this, but deal in real time on basis of real data, scientific evidence and basis of the spread

of the virus. again there's no substitute for making a determination of when that date occurs where we give new guidance than the determination of millions of individuals practicing safe physical distancing. >> have you given much thought or have people thinking that far ahead, whenever the date may be, what coming back on line looks like? president has talked about big bang, dr. fauci said not turn a key to full bore. it's obviously gradual. but testing, you've already said this, is critical in all of this, contact tracing. is the state right now set up to do the kind of testing, the kind of public health contact tracing that would be needed? >> every day we're making real progress in that space. we're continuing to be limited on the progress we otherwise could make if we had more

supplies, particularly swabs, can't impress upon you more in particle it's collecting the samples and media related to the samples more than rna extraction that are limiting factors. testing is improving, diagnostic side, time to get the results of the tests. we're going to start to see that scale. answer to your question is yes, we have a team of people focusing exclusively, full-time on what the parameters look like, what the expectations are. if we meet those thresholds, how we can architect a strategy to thoughtfully and strategically get back to some sense of normalcy with heightened sense of vigilance to make sure we don't have a second wave. >> in a company, how might that work? people's temperatures taken when they come into office building,

if it was large company. would there be quick testing available if employee had a cough? i'm just trying to get a sense of what that might actually look like company to company. >> no, the answer is yes and yes, all of the above. all of us are beneficiaries of best practices and bad practices from rest of the world. you'll see more face coverings, more ppe procured, points of temperatures checked. more aggressive efforts to socially isolate and quarantine individuals in real time based on new technologies of tracking and tracing. today two california-based companies made an now. been working with them, google and apple in terms of helping with tracing. all deployed, part of the architecture we're considering and will be making public

shortly. >> california loaned 500 ventilators to a number of states, including n new york/new jersey. you said the california hospital system is using 35% of the ventilators, if the peak is still coming in california, you're confident obviously you're prepared for that if you're loaning out ventilators. >> we have over, as i speak this moment, got the new numbers, 8,700 ventilators not in use that exist in our hospital system and with our cache in the state. i would love to deploy all of them to the hot spots, illinois, new jersey and new york and elsewhere. we're proud we were able to provide a few hundred and we're prepared to do more if we feel we can. but to your question, we're cautious, none of us spiking the ball or suggesting for a second we've turned the corner here.

modest growth but not acuity of growth, not slope originally anticipated because of millions of people practicing social distancing. >> you've had differences with the president in the past, tough words on both sides. you've been able to work together it seems in this for the needs of your state. >> yeah. look, we're involved in 68 lawsuits with the trump administration, been on your show, i haven't been timid, he hasn't been timid. but got to say this, just a fact, i'd be lying to you and american people. every single direct request he was capable of meeting he has met. we have the "usns mercy" because of his intervention and federal medical stations because of his direct support. i have to be complimentary or i would be lying and misleading

you. that's a wonderful thing to be able to say. i hope that continues. this has been a remarkable moment or at least we've been able to rise above that partisanship. >> finally your message to californians, to all americans about where we are, what lies ahead. >> stay the course. stay the course. let us not run as i said the 90-yard dash. if we stay the course we'll get this economy back sooner, we'll save lives, avoid a second wave, buy ourselves time for more and better treatment and of course a vaccine and kind of immunity, herd immunity that ultimately will get this economy back on its feet and get americans back at work and spending more time with their family and less time at home. >> california governor gavin newsom, appreciate his time. lot more coming up tonight. health professionals around the country say they've been

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some health care workers say they've come under fire for speaking out against what they say is lack of personal protective equipment, vital gowns and masks and things they need to wear treating coronavirus patients. randi kaye has more. >> virus is in the air. that's what i was really

concerned about. so i wanted to wear an n-95 mask. >> reporter: nurse from chicago says she was fired from raising alarm about not being allowed to wear n-95 mask at work. considered best line of against because it filters more than 95% of airborne particles. >> we were told we could only wear simple masks. i didn't think that was enough protection. >> reporter: says her unit in downtown chicago was treating patients diagnosed with coronavirus, many of whom had fevers and bad coughs. >> i was travel nurse so i had my own mask. >> reporter: even though not taking from the hospital supply, told not to wear the n-95. >> i emailed the manager, said i don't think it's safe enough.

want to wear the n-95 and i'll wear simple over the mask. i then sent out email to 50 coworkers, i'm going to wear n-95 mask along with the simple mask. >> reporter: following day lori says she was let go without a reason. now suing northwestern memorial, lawsuit alleges she was terminated for the purpose of quelling her speech. >> i cannot fathom any legitimate reason to muzzle a doctor or nurse, they fired her because speaking out on a matter of safety. >> reporter: hospital wouldn't comment but told me via email the hospital is committed to the safety of our employees on the front lines of this global health care center irisis. adding they follow cdc guidance regarding the use of personal protective equipment for our

health care providers. but a radiologist and physicians advocate for north carolina has heard about hospitals around the country silencing health care workers and trying to control the message, even giving some physicians talking points to use. >> lot of physicians are very scared of telling the truth or challenging any of the policies being put forth by their institutions because they're afraid of being fired. >> reporter: nisha runs two facebook groups with physicians, sounding off about lack of adequate protection from coronavirus. >> every day i get at least 10 to 20 messages from physicians around the country. people need to know how scared we are, not able to get stories out because of the hospital policies or afraid of being retaliated against. >> reporter: in chicago, lori says she didn't speak up to cause problems but save lives. >> i just wanted everyone to be

protected, didn't want people to get it. didn't want people to die from it. >> reporter: randi kaye, cnn, palm beach, florida. >> get perspective from senior medical a medical analyst. you just heard randi's piece. it's difficult. hospitals want to protect the privacy of their patients but also protect their own reputations. yet other -- there's other concerns of getting information out and getting action to fix wrongs. what do you make of the nurse being fired? are you surprised at what we've been seeing? >> not totally surprised but i am really disappointed. i'll tell you why, anderson. we're in a tense, tense environment. there are a lot of frontline workers, heroes out there taking risks. some people not with adequate protection, the right kind of protection. certainly people who said to me

i'm reusing masks that aren't supposed to be reused. it's a tense, tense, tough situation and not one i wish we would see lawsuits and firings. if we're stressed out on the front lines, don't have enough workers, last thing we want to do is fire people who speak up. i think what we want to do is look for mediation, try to do counseling, may want to put the matter off until after the epidemic is over. but you have to have some sympathy for people who are nervous, afraid, feel like they're being asked to take risks out of the ordinary. i get that the hospital wants to control the message, lot of institutions do. many companies would be furious if employees talked out in social media or to the press but now is not time to go to war over free speech, not the right approach. >> i get a lot of direct

messages on instagram from nurses, other employees in hospitals, frontline workers, they don't want names used or name of their hospital used because they're afraid for themselves but they want people to know what they're facing and what the difficulties and needs are. what do you think is the best way for a frontline employee to try to change a wrong or a difficulty they are all facing? >> look, social media, the internet, it's really tough to police that. lot of these policies about you have to clear this with pr department at your hospital were built for different era, we're not in this era. some venting or complaining, there is outlet through social media and people have a right i think to say what they want there on their own time. you know, it's a free speech zone if you will. at the same time i think writing

something thoughtful, trying to make presentations that go -- letters to the editor, whatever, get them cleared, it's fine to do that too. don't want anybody to feel if their life is on the line, asked to take terrible risks and bravely taking them they're going to wind oup fired for that, that's not the right interaction. >> yeah, art caplan, appreciate your time. coming up, update on the confusing status of coronavirus testing. trace the arc of the president's comments ahead.

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