fauci said. it could be that some time in the fall there will be some flare-ups. we're going to be in a great position with everything we've done and everything we've learned. this was something that nobody ever saw before. such contagion and very powerful. people don't realize. we all probably have friends. i have a number of people that were just great people who were just decimated by what happened. some are dead right now. they're dead. they went into a hospital. one called me. he said i tested positive. four days later, he was dead. the following day, after he said that, he was unconscious. so, this is a tough deal. at the same time, some people got sniffles and didn't even realize they had a problem. and they are supposedly immune. we're going to find out about that. even that is a little bit soon. we don't know how long the immunity lasts. peter, some states will be in great shape and they're in great

shape to open and i think you'll have quite a few states opening soon. they're going to be very vigilant. they're going to be very careful. >> public health, what public health experts have said this would be better done if there were comprehensive surveillance testing, which we're obviously not in the position to do. i wonder if dr. birx and dr. fauci could -- >> dr. fauci and i will do it together. that's why i wanted to put up on the influenza-like piece. what's key in this is the early alerts in getting in there before they even know they have a problem. and i think cdc has been remarkable in building these platforms. dr. redfield integrated them so they're all on the same website. if you look at covid-19, go into cases, you can find all the d a data. and the beauty of it is the states are used to utilizing that through flu season. so the testing and contract tracing, and dr. redfield will

be putting people in every single state to make sure that cdc is standing beside the state and local health officials to make sure that all of those cases are immediately identified and contact traced. i think what's new and what's really critical is this constant surveillance for asymptom atic individuals in communities that we know are particularly vulnerable. and that hasn't been done in flu before. and i think that's going to be the added dividend that's really focused on who is most vulnerable and how do we get the fastest alert by generally screening people without symptoms? people who are just coming to the clinic will be screened for covid-19. and we do have enough testing pass to do both that surveillance piece as well as the diagnostic piece and contact tracing. >> a follow-up. >> do you want to say something? >> actually, you know, people have gotten confused about that. in the beginning, we were focusing really on just mitigation and really trying to

keep peaks down, and trying to worry about ventilators and ppes and things like that. now, when you get a little more grace period you can start figuring out what is the penetrance of this virus in society? what are we missing? what is the percentage of the people out there? that will inform us greatly for a number of things, including the level once we prove that antibody test that you have is really protective, and we still don't know that yet. we're going to find that out. we may get a good feel of what the level of protection might be in society, but we don't know that yet. so it's going to give us information as to what the vulnerable areas are and how we need to respond. remember, there's two types of things, antibody tests and tests for the diagnosis of who has the disease. one you need for contact tracing. the other you need for finding out what's in society. we're going to have both of

those much, much better in the next weeks and months. and by the time we get into the fall, i think we're going to be in pretty good shape. >> mr. president? >> mr. president, small business loans -- >> as we see a hot spot possibly developing, maybe not, but as we've seen a hot spot developing, we've learned a lot. we'll be able to suppress it, whack it. we'll be able to do things that people weren't even thinking about, because nobody has ever gone through this. 1917, they went through something that was similar, probably not as contagious, probably more powerful in certain other ways, but we are going to be able to suppress it, we think, and watch it very closely. we'll be able to watch things very closely. please? >> mr. president? >> bob, please. >> thank you, mr. president. i think what's really important is during this -- we're bringing people back to work, our economy back to work. and what's going to go back is

that we're going to be very aggressively focused on early case recognition, isolation and contact tracing. in the event that we just went through, unfortunately, and as we started we were very capable of doing that. when the initial cases all came from china all the way through january, all the way through till the end of february, we were able to identify cases early, first 14, do the contact tracing over 800 contacts we identified that two of those contacts were actually infected, we were able to isolate them. we were able to contain the outbreak. we're about to enter a new phase of this where we're going back to containment. mitigation will continue as dr. birx and others have said, some of the things that we have learned to do, we're going to continue. the major thrust of how we're going to control and make sure that we continue to keep this nation open is early case recognition, isolation and contact tracing.

that's the fundamentals of public health. that's what we're going to do. we have very good surveillance systems that are going to help us, as we see these cases sporadically across the country. we've got to jump on them with early diagnosis, isolation and contact tracing. that's what cdc is going to continue to help build that capacity and in the states across this nation. >> mr. president -- >> one other thing because we discussed this with the senators. we had the senators. we had the congressmen and women. there will be some areas of our country, wide open plains, wide open spaces, with not that many people relatively speaking, where you're not going to have to do that. senators were saying there's no reason to do that in certain states and certain areas, where you have the wide open. in other cases we will be doing that. we'll be following it. largely, that also will be a function of governors. they know their states. largely that's going to be a function of governors. yes? >> you used the term clear

scientific benchmarks on testing. the main periscope that i think you're talking about is the sentinel testing. are you opening things up then without doing -- i just want to be clear. are you opening things up without doing widespread te testing? is that because you don't have the capacity or you don't think it's necessary? >> you have the capacity. you have states without any problem. you have states with a few cases and those cases have healed. you have states with very little death, relatively speaking. one is too many, as i've said, but you have states with very little and frankly they're at a point where they have almost nothing, so this is a much different case than a new york or new jersey where they're going -- frankly, they go through hell. if you look at new york, i'm looking at bed count. you have to look at bed count. and it's really rough. we built the javitt center with 2,900 beds and -- they built it in four days, they did an incredible job, the arm corps of

engineers. it was not used very much. we sent the hospital ship in to new york harbor and it was not used. then we went covid and it was still not used very much because the bed count has gone way down, way, way down. >> when you see yourself campaigning? >> this is not campaigning. i want to make the country better. i don't care about campaigning. this is about making our country better. i think this team has been incredible, whether it's army corps of engineers, whether it's fema. one thing that happened on the call today that i noticed more than anything is pete gainor, so many governors said i want to thank you. pete gainor called up. they had tornados in a big part of our country this weekend, this week. and they were all saying he has been unbelievable. they called one after another, thanking us for -- that's fema. and they were thanking us. no. i want to heal this country. this is a war we've been through. we have an invisible, as opposed to a visible enemy.

i think in many ways the invisible enemy is much more dangerous, is much tougher. in the g7 today, i went through country after country. we were there. we all get along great. angela merkel and shinzo abe, prime minister of japan. all of them. and their countries have been devastated by this. their economies have been devastated by this. 184 countries all over the world. and we went through one after another. and i was angry, because this should have been told to us. it should have been told to us early. it should have been told to us a lot soon er. people knew it was happening and people didn't want to talk about it. i don't know why. but we're going to get to the bottom of it. but people should have -- >> do you mean china or -- >> i'm not saying anything. i'm saying people should have told us about this. they should have told the rest of the world, too. when i looked at germany talking today. when i looked at france talking today, the european union was there, represented. that represents a lot of

countries. their economies have been devastated, but they're going to build them back. we're going to build this economy back bigger, better, stronger than ever before. you watch. and we have stimulus. and we're going to do things, whether it's infrastructure, which we would like to be able to do, our roads, our tunnels, our highways, our bridges. our bridges need help. a lot of have you reported on our bridges. they're in bad shape. they should have been fixed 25 years ago. they're still standing. they have to be fixed. hopefully, we'll get an infrastructure build. the interest rate is close to zero. and zero interest is a good thing when it comes to rebuilding your infrastructure and your country back. please, in the back? >> mr. president, walk us through the calendar, if you would, when it comes to memorial day or even pentecost, july 4th, labor day weekend, what would you anticipate at each of those

milestones? >> i don't like to anticipate. you have a couple of states that are in difficulty that have made a lot of progress, by the way. they're either here or they're heading down, so i'm not going to go in terms of dates, but i think we're going very quickly now. i really believe. i think we're going to have a lot of states open relatively soon. we're beating the date. i set a date of may 1st. here we are. i think you're going to have some nice surprises over the next few days and that will be before. and that's big stuff. some of those states are big stuff. very important states. and it's going to be added on and on. look, i don't want anyone coming back that isn't in position to come back. the last thing we want is for, let's say, new york to come back too soon, or for a new jersey to come back too soon. we want them to come back when they're ready, but they're really heading in a good direction and i think it will be much faster than people think. i think it will be quicker, but

it's got to be safe. >> thank you. has the government modeled the possibility of how many deaths might occur if there is a widespread resurgence if this doesn't work? how many deaths are we talking about? >> if we didn't do what we did, we were talking about 2.2 million deaths. so, that's five times almost what we lost in the civil war. >> but from here on out. >> if everything happens properly, and if we continue to go the way we're going now, we will be significantly less than the lowest number with mitigation. so, it would be significantly less. and it's still a lot of people. one is too many, as i've said. one is too many. but we'll be under the number of 100,000, which was the minimum number projected by the model. and i give everybody up here, i give all of the people that we've been -- i mean, this was a military operation with a lot of

private help. if you look at roche, they were incredible. look at johnson & johnson now, what they're doing. they are very far advanced on a vaccine. i think therapeutically, we have some of these genius companies, truly genius companies. i'm seeing them. i'm meeting with the people who run the companies and scientists. i mean, what they're doing is incredible. it's incredible. it's a beautiful thing to see. i think we're very far advanced and we're going to be in great shape soon. >> mr. president, i know you don't want to mention specific states but what about washington and california, do you have guidance for? >> do you mean washington state or washington here? >> washington state and california, too. >> that will be up to them. they'll have to make that determination. the governor of washington was saying that he can't find cotton because a swab is a very easy thing to get and swab essentially is a little more sophisticated than a q-tip. and you have to be able to go

out and find. the federal government shouldn't be forced to go and do everything. what we've done is incredible. the ones that can't be done, the ventilators, that can't be done by anybody but a very powerful, very great manufactureing country, which is what we are, and what we're really getting to be. and i have to tell you, some of these companies, the job they've done -- we're going to recognize them pretty soon. the job they've done in terms of getting out, in particular ventilators, because ventilators are so hard. i say, and some people say it's not really as complicated. well, it's like building a car. and you know what? the price is the same, too. it's a very expensive thing for a sophisticated ventilator. it's very tough. >> mr. president, let me toss this question up to you and the doctors as well. for those states that aren't ready to go to phase one, to get through these phases, do we have an idea of how many millions,

tens of millions of tests they're going to need for them to get through these phases? any number out there? tests of any sort. >> yeah, so, i mean, you've heard me talk about tests for a while from the podium, and i think what has happened over the last several weeks is hospitals and clinics that could move to the more point of care tests move to those point of care tests and what's left is an amazing array of capacity that exists in the country for at least a million more tests per week. we have a whole team working lab by lab to see what it would take to turn on all of those labs that aren't running the pieces of equipment now. so, you see in the system, i just said to you there's a million more tests per week that we have tests sitting there and equipment sitting there. and now we have to really deal with each single lab to figure

out what they need. i want to thank administrator seema verma who went through with us and the lab directors, they really explained to us highly technical difficulty to run some of these big pieces of equipment. you have to centrifuge, put them on the machine. it takes a tech full-time. at $50 a test it wasn't enough to hire another technician to run the machine full-advertisement at $100 a test, it is. those are the kinds of changes we have to make bit by bit by bit. that, alone, doubles our testing capacity per week. so, we're committed to work with laboratories to answer every one of their issues with the state and local governments, and i think frankly every conversation i have, and the governors will say i need 5,000 people tested and i say, well, at the university of x, there are 6700 tests waiting for you. so, it's more making sure that every governor and every public health official knows exactly

where every lab is, and where the tests are, so we can create, with them, a real understanding so all these tests can be run. so, yes, there is twice the capacity right now. >> just so you understand -- excuse me. just so you understand, we have tremendous testing capacity. you look at the labs. they're actually saying send us. and the reason it's gone down is because we have so many other tests that frankly are easier, because you don't have to send. they're on site. now we have the new saliva test that just came out yesterday, which is probably the easiest of them all when you get right down to it. and i was seeing where rutgers was involved. great school. great college. great university. and they're using that. so many people are going to want to use that, but they don't have to use the labs anymore. labs are great, highly accurate. very, very great companies, but they're down -- they have tremendous -- as this goes down,

you have additional capacity. we have tremendous testing capacity. and to think that a month and a half ago, we had virtually nothing. i just want to conclude, we're opening up our great country again. it's going to be over a period of time. we're working with some really great people, people that have become friends of mine. and i'm including democrat governors that have really done a good job, republican governors, most of whom i've known that have done a really good job. they're all working together. with few exceptions, the relationship has been outstanding. and i want to thank doctor, doctor and mike. i want to thank the director, fantastic job. head of the fda, he has broken hurdles that years ago even recently would have taken years. he got one thing done in one day that would have taken two years for somebody else. so i want to thank dr. hahn of

the fda. we have incredible people we're working with. we're going to bring our country back, and it's going to be bigger and better and stronger than ever before. we have learned a lot. we've learned a lot about ourselves. i want to thank everybody. and, most importantly, i want to thank the american people. thank you all very much. thank you. >> and good evening. that was president trump. he was just unveiling new guidelines for states to reopen. the president telling the nation's governors to, quote, call your own shots, reversing position that he had earlier this week, of course, when he said that he had total authority. he now says some states could possibly open tomorrow, as soon as tomorrow. the president laid out three phases. vulnerable individuals will shelter in place. people will be urged to work at home. schools remain closed, social gatherings no larger than ten people.

bars don't open, strauns and gyms do. and that phase does not even start until you've seen susta sustained line in cases. social gatherings go to 50 peop people. nonessential travel could resume. bars are allowed to open. phase three, vulnerable people could interact with the public and no restrictions on going back to work. obviously at any point inf there's an increase in cases theoretically, you would go back to the beginning. there is a real lack of clarity about that. when will states be ready even for phase one? what do the medical experts say? that's the big question facing this entire country tonight. i want to go to the governor of kansas, laura kelly, she was on the call with the president and his call with the governors of the country. let's be clear. it was always the reality that you, as a governor, makes the decisions when it comes to your own state. when you get these guidelines and it says two weeks a

sustained decline in cases and you can do this and this and this, does it make sense to you? does this look like a good blupt that gives you the information you want and need? >> i actually appreciate the efforts that dr. birx and others put into creating these guidelines. you know, today i just printed off the guidelines put out by the world health organization, because they, too, are developing guidelines and, you know, really sort of a how-to-do-it plan, how to reopen our economy. i'm going to be taking all of this information and putting it together in a way that makes sense for kansas. obviously, i'm going to be keeping my public health people at the table but i'll also be bringing in our businesses. i'll be bringing in economists. i'll be bringing in some others who can help take us all these guidelines and then, you know, figure out how that actually looks here in the state of kansas. >> so you, just yesterday,

governor, extended your stay-at-home order until may 3rd. and you said that models show that your state could be two weeks away from your peak. so, that would mean that you have your peak in two weeks, and then you would have weeks after that, theoretically, to make sure things are okay. when do you see it as reasonable to start reopening your state? >> well, i think we will take a look at that may 3rd as an opportunity to perhaps reopen on a regional basis, not a statewide reopen. and i say this with the reservation that we may have to stepped the statewide. but our thought process right now is that we would look at what areas in the state of kansas could we start using these take-it-slow guidelines to reopen? and when i issued the statewide stay-at-home order we usurped local government, who put in

stay-at-home orders. once we start lifting the stay-at-home order on a statewide basis we'll give them the authority to put in whatever orders they think are appropriate for their areas. kansas is very different. i know everybody thinks it's the sa same, but it's not. we to have some really urban hubs and then, obviously, have much more rural areas. so we'll let the locals decide what needs to be done once we decide it's okay to at least partially lift the statewide order. >> the president in his briefing there, again, governor kelly was talking about excess testing capacity, a tremendous ability to test. basically saying that there's just testing out there, you know. we're not even using all the testing we have. and yet we hear again and again that people can't get tests and they're total repeatedly if you don't have symptoms, you can't get a test. other countries that have successfully started to reopen, like south korea, they test asymptomatic people, contacts of people who have had it, whether they're symptomatic or not.

that is not happening in this country. do you have all the testing that you need? are you confident that you can test every single person you want or any person who has been in contact with somebody who has it, to the extent you could reopen your state? >> no, not at all, erin. in fact, i'm a little embarrassed to tell you that kansas ranks 50th in per capita testing. we have had a very difficult time getting access to tests and all of the stuff you need to complete those tests. so, that was part of the conversation i had with the white house today, and i'm glad to say that i'm getting response. i'll be on the phone with the admiral of the joint chiefs of staff, who is taking care of all the logistics saturday morning, and we're going to be talking about these tests. we'll also be talking about personal protection equipment. that's another area where kansas, and i think many of the smaller states, particularly in the midwest where we haven't seen these real hot spots develop, you know, have really

had a hard time getting the supplies that we need. we now have put in seven to nine orders to fema and not received anything. and that clearly has to stop. not only do we need it for our health care workers, we also are huge agricultural state. we have a lot of meat packing plants in the state of kansas. we need that personal protection equipment so that those folks can continue to do their jobs and continue to feed the nation. >> and, of course, we have obviously heard of significant outbreaks at plants across the country, raising questions about the safety of those workers and the food supply itself. >> exactly. >> the testing is up to the governors. he pushed that on to the governors and basically said that's your fault if that's a problem. you say you're getting a different message from others now in the administration, that they're going to help? >> well, i'm hoping that will be the content of the conversation that i have on saturday.

that they will help us. yes, we are the ones who will administer the tests and we'll get those tests to the labs to be run, but we need the equipment to do that. >> all right. governor kelly, i appreciate it. >> that can only come through the feds. >> thank you very much. i appreciate your time tonight, governor. >> thank you. >> and i want to go straight to our panel now who, of course, was there throughout the briefing as well. john king, jim acosta, dr. sanjay gupta and daniel deo. let me start with you, john king in terms of the president. he came out there. he stuck to his script. he wanted to lay out his everybody is going back to work and that included, according to him, some states that can open tomorrow. >> you know, there may be some states, erin, who can quickly. under 1,000 cases as of this morning is 3% of the american population. good for those states if they can reopen. we want every place that can

reopen to reopen, as long as it can be done safely. in terms of seeing a boom in the american economy, boost in manufacturing, major economic output, it simply doesn't exist in those states right now. that doesn't mean they're not important. they're obviously critical in their states. governor of kansas talking about her state and its role in feeding the nation. what we heard from the president a couple of things. number one, complete retreat in terms of the power structure. 72 hours ago, the president was saying i call the shots. i tell the governors what to do. even though there was some fiction in the briefing he said he will allow states that need to stay closed to stay closed and he will give the freedom to the states to reopen when they want to reopen. he does not have the power to give the freedom. the states have the power within their borders to do what they want to do. he also once again ceded to the scientists, dr. birx and dr. fauci. this is a cautious, go slow approach. these guidelines, you just asked

the governor of kansas. that's her state. she's weeks away from being able to do this. new york and other states have said they'll go through the middle of may and then start to talk about this. when you think this through, especially in the larger states that have the problem, that have the manufacturing base, large economic output of the country, erin, we're talking about a process that's going to go from the spring into the summer, into the fall. to the fall. dr. fauci said it will take some time. the president was saying we would be open by easter. he came up to the podium and said no, we have to get america open. we have to get america open. the president envisioned flipping a switch, opening a door, cloeing a chapter, opening a new chapter. this is not that. this is a slow, methodical transition, not what the president had envisioned. >> slow and methodical and so many questions. a lot of subjectivity and they say before you can even start

thinking about this, you have to have two weeks of a decline in cases but no sense of what the level is or anything, with which obviously from a scientific basis would be incredibly important. what do you make of the plan? >> i mean, in addition to the two-week reduction, they have to make sure that the hospitals are at precrisis capacity, can handle the surge. all the things that should have been happening all along, certainly should have happened at the beginning, we're now talking about as this criteria triggers to basically come out the back side of this curve. you know, i think the way john king framed it is right. everyone has sort of focused on the reopening. what's america going to look like during these various phases, but these are significant criteria. so even if symptoms of an influenza-like illness are coming down over 14 days and even if actual cases are coming down over 14 days, there still has to be testing in place. it was a very interesting question you just had with the governor of kansas.

who is ultimately responsible for being able to say testing is definitely available to anybody who needs it? you're walking into your place of business in a large building, it could be a situation where people need to get tested, maybe even on a regular basis, before they actually walk into their place of employment. is that set up? can it be set up? whose responsibility is it? part of it will be the companies, the communities, the states. as governor kelly was just saying, the equipment they need, they don't even have that and she says she needs that from the federal government. there are still things that need to be done here. the overall criteria makes sense to get us to phase one. >> sanjay, to the point you're making, though, in order to reopen the economy and have the confidence of people to return to their places of work and other places, right, gyms, whatever it might be, sure you need temperature checks, disposable menus, but you have to have testing. we're getting clear pushback from the president who says this tremendous capacity, excess

capacity that's out there, and yet still say you're only going to have people who have symptoms get tests. that, obviously, is not going to catch perhaps the vast majority of cases that then can reinfect and cause this whole thing to surge again. >> yeah. >> why not? why aren't they clearly pushing for what you're talking about? >> they should be. and ultimately, you know, i think there's sort of this -- sometimes a slower roll of things in terms of how things are presented but ultimately if you read between the lines, and i've looked at this plan, these various phases, it is say iing ultimately there has to be safe and efficient testing available in all these places. and it might mean even at a gym or at a place of -- where you work that you get tested on a regular basis. you're right. the temperature checks, the screening kind of made sense initially. now we know, people can be asymptomatic or presymptomatic and still spread this. maybe there's some comfort in checking for symptoms, but it's not really the point. it makes the case that the

testing is even more important now, given some of what we've learned the last several weeks. >> and to the point you make, obviously, a study -- we talked about it where presymptomatic people may be spreading -- more spreaders of the virus than ones who actually get symptoms. that opens up a whole door as well about testing. daniel deo, to that point -- john king revsed this. john king keeps talking about states with no problem will be able to reopen. he's saying some of them could do it as soon as tomorrow and he keeps talking about these nine states. but when you look at those nine states, if you look at -- you're talking about economic impact on the country overall and a return to, quote, unquote, normal, that isn't going to get you anywhere close. >> it's not economically. and the president keeps referring, exaggerating on the extent to which even small, rural states are free of this issue. in short, they're not free of this issue, he said today. you have states without any

problem. if you look at the john hopkins data, each state has 200 confirmed cases, there are many cases that have not been confirmed by testing. the cdc director saying we need to do contact tracing, testing and isolation. some states with wide-open spaces where you don't really need to do that. as we've seen repeatedly, even states that are heavily rural have pockets of density where there can easily be outbreaks, factories and so on. i don't know if the experts would agree with that. i don't think they would. he also said, you know, people should have told us about this. they should have told the rest of the world, too. as john king has talked about a bunch of times there are legitimate questions about with the w.h.o., what china told the world and what they told it to the world, but the president kept downplaying this virus long after repeated warnings both from the w.h.o. and internally from u.s. intelligence. so the suggestion that we didn't take action earlier because we just didn't know, even through february, is not born out by the

facts. >> jim acosta also in that room. the president kept trying to make a push for how you're going to have this full return to normalcy. there was one moment, and he kept getting a lot of questions about this from reporters, justifiably so. he was saying if it's a stadium that fits 150,000 people, there isn't a new normal. the normal is 150,000, implying it would be that way as you get to phase three, i think to some incredulity in that room. that is what he wants, right, jim? yes, he is still going with the science but he still wants that light switch. he wants in this runway up until november, he wants that everything is fully back to normal? >> reporter: erin, president trump wants to be phase three in a phase one world. i think that's one way of putting it. he was talking about states that could get back to normal tomorrow and open up tomorrow. that is just going to be unrealistic for most states around the country. i think one question that has to

be asked is, you know, is he sending signals to these republican governors who were taking cues from him to begin with? essentially while we've been saying for the better part of this afternoon that the president is giving this back to the governors after claiming total authority earlier this week, he is sending strong cues to governors in his party to get going. and i do think that there's some significant questions that need to be asked, as you were just saying a few moments ago, erin. when the president says we have tremendous testing capacity in this country, that is false. that is not the case. the president was on a conference call with governors and other lawmakers earlier today, telling him there's not enough testing to get most states back to normal. most workplaces back to normal. and so there is a problem here where the president is just not dealing with the reality of the situation. at one point, erin, during this press conference, he said there are outbreaks or hot spots that flare up we can go in there and, quote, whack it. what does that mean? there isn't a vaccine at this point.

there isn't a proven treatment at this point for this virus. you can't go into hot spots and just whack it. there will be significant health problems and the potential for outbreaks and things needing to be closed down again, i think there is that potential there. the other thing, erin, that has not been discussed is what happens if people want to travel from a phase three state to a phase one state and phase one state to phase three state? there are so many different questions that have not been answered in all of this, erin. there was not enough time to go through some of these questions and quite honestly, there will be a lot of questions asked in the coming days. you have states eager and raring to go to get opened up again. they may not be ready. they're taking cues from the president. when he talks, republican governors and republican lawmakers listen. the question will become, will they open up too quickly and have problems because of that? >> sanjay, what about that very question? it is crucial. you're trying to say you can open up a question in a

checkerboard way, even a state, whether it's county or county. but the reality is -- we've been talking about this already. we don't have militarized borders. we are one country. if you're going to say you're going back to normal and that means people going to, i don't know, conventions in las vegas or other states who are coming from big states like new york, you aren't going to be able to get back to normal. how are you even going to be able to police or enforce that and prevent more outbreaks? >> that would be very challenging. and, again, we don't have to look too far back in the past to understand these lessons at the beginning of this outbreak. you start to understand what exactly was happening when the numbers were small in this country. it was clusters a lot of times, after a big convention in boston, i believe there was one. those people came. there was an outbreak there. those people then went back to their homes and all of a sudden you had many outbreaks from those people that carried the virus back with them. the virus doesn't respect borders. so, you know, i don't -- the

virus is a virus. it's out there. and it's going to spread from person to person if those people are still allowed to move, that would obviously be a problem. >> and then -- so, sanjay, when it comes down to it, i know there will be an effort. look at, say, singapore. it was interesting. a couple of months ago the prime minister of singapore gave a really calm and reasoned layout of how things were going to be. it basically was -- granted, singapore is different, tieny and completely controlled but the point was we're going to open up and there's going to be a surge and we know it, and then we're going to close it down. and you have to bear with me because that's how this is going to be. it was this layout. i'm wonder iing, sanjay, if essentially that is what we are looking at, too, basically until there's a vaccine. is that fair? >> yeah, erin, i think that's exactly right. and these are going to be tough decisions, i think, every step of the way. what you're saying is absolutely right. and i think people probably need

to understand that no matter what, until there's a vaccine, that every time things are reopened to some extent, there will be new infections. we don't know how many. but there will be new infections, likely new hospitalizations, and there may be more deaths as a result of that. that will happen each time you start reopening things. this is a contagious virus. it's still out there. people sort of fundamentally realize that but it's worth reminding. it's going to be a balance each time, you know, like how many people are likely to get sick if we do this, even if we're not hearing it at a press conference like that? those are the machinations going on that are sort of informing this plan. so, obviously it's -- this is, again, there's good gated criteria here, which should lower the likelihood that people will get very sick and die from this, but that's likely to happen each time this happens. and i think it will cause people to sort of re-evaluate and wonder, was it too early, every

single time this happens. >> as you say, you go to the gate and you could have to step back. i mean, john king, how aware of this, on sort of an emotional level, is the president? the fact that when you do reopen you will see more infections and you are going to see deaths that you wouldn't have otherwise? >> well, you see with the president, he wants to get the country open last week or last month but again he has once again given in to dr. birx and dr. fauci about a science-based, more measured approach. he's in a re-election year. his economy is in a recession. this is terrible for him. this is terrible for him as a politician. and so he wants to get it open as soon as possible. he did cede to the scientists again. let's be clear also, to the point you were just talking with sanjay, these are recommendations from the federal government. the president is a lagging indicator to a degree here. i don't say that in any disrespect. the governors control their states and will decide how to do this.

they're grateful for these guidelines. you do start to see these protests, saying governor, why are you shutting us down? why is this state doing this and you're doing that? you have federal guidelines that allow governors to say we're all in this together and i'm going to use the federal guidelines as essentially a road map. it will be different in my state, little different in that state. but also the business community, erin. there will not be big conventions. companies will not send their people into big rooms. biogen conference. you're going to have governors, industry, businesses take very cautious approach here. and you can bet frustrating the president along the way because yes, jim is dead right. there are a handful of republican governors who take their cues from the president. they're going to try to push the envelope here. the majority of governors, look at mike dewine in ohio, hogan in maryland, massachusetts, not trump republicans but republicans. they are taking their own approach, working with their neighbors, democratic governors as well, because they're on the ballot some day, too, whether it's this year, next year or two

years from now. they are approximate not going to be pushed by the president, the majority of them. >> jim acosta, the president obviously is putting pressure on some, right, saying there will be announcements in the next couple of days. wait for it. i mean, he is counting on that and he is pushing for that. >> that's right, erin. what are we going to do? what is sanjay going to say? what are our health experts going to say if the spring breakers are back on the beach in a couple of weeks, not practicing social distancing, doing the opposite of that, which is what you do at spring break? i think we could see hot spots flare up that perhaps could have been avoided had these social distancing guidelines been continued for some period of time. we saw the governor of new york, andrew cuomo, announcing he will be continuing social distancing and shut iting down his state until may 15th. the mayor of washington has talked about doing something very similar. other states are doing the same thing. and so the president talked about this being a beautiful puzzle during this press conference just a short while

ago. i think the president better hope that the puzzle isn't turn ed upside down and dumped on the floor, because he could have a situation here where, you know, he's giving the green light to certain parts of the country because he's concerned about this economy, and everybody is. but as health experts have said over and over again, dr. anthony fauci has said over and over again that the virus dictates the timeline. it sounds as though -- because the white house was issuing these new guidelines today before the old guidelines were even expired. the question is going to be asked if you start seeing hot spots and flare-ups whether or not he pushed the accelerator too fast and people got sick as a result of that. i think that question is undoubtedly going to be asked if people get sick, erin. >> that's right. if you have a surge in one place it spreads to others and then a lot more. i asked that for a simple question. you could say a city like new york is hit the hardest in no small part, right, because of its population density. once you start to reopen in new york, even if it's only a little bit, you start to see a lot of

pressure on, let's be honest, public transportation. and how do you deal with that? how do you deal with that? if that happens again, it starts to spread more in places like new york, it then spreads no connecticut, new jersey, washington, d.c., chicago, or any of these places that you have these regular links. >> it's the biggest public health challenge in this whole thing. when we talk about containment, the reason that testing and contact tracing is so important is because each time somebody tests positive -- again, these tests have to be done very regularly on everybody. each time someone tests positive, they need to be isolated. they need to figure out who they've been in contact with. if they've been on a subway or something, that's very challenging. teach state is going to have to define this a little more carefully. there's some places and some activities that are obviously just going to be huge problems and, again, you know, the virus is still out there. it is still circulating. until you have a vaccine, each time you have a cluster like

that, not only will it be spread within those people, but then they all go somewhere and can spread it even more. >> thank you all very much. sanjay is going to be back on cnn's global town hall on coronavirus at 8:00 eastern, just about 15 minutes from now. part of this whole conversation we're having, right, how do you get back to normal? president defined it, stadium of 150,000 people has 150,000 people. as of now it seems the key to that, to geting back to that complete normalcy is a vaccine. we've been talking a lot about that on the show, a few in human trials. researchers at oxford university now say they could have a coronavirus vaccine ready by the fall. now, when i say that, your jaw should drop. there's a reason for that. that is because that is at least a year ahead of what many experts have projected for any kind of a vaccine. they're all saying from now, ten to 16 months best case scenario, maybe two years. one member of the oxford team,

in fact, says she's 80% confident their vaccine will work already at this time. out front now, professor adrian hill, one of the lead researchers working on the vaccine at oxford. professor, i appreciate your time. people hear this, they say wait a minute, you're saying this fall. that is the kind of thing that literally, if it happens, could change the world. one of your colleagues says she's 80% confident at this point that the vaccine will work. what makes your team so confident? >> well, this is a very special type of vaccine technology. it's an improvement on what was used during the ebola outbreak when four of the vaccines that were taken to west africa were of this type, and it's a single dose vaccine, so you don't need to get multiple shots, and it's very manufacturable. so, we've been able in, what, three months since this virus was discovered, to make the vaccine, test it in animals, find that it appears safe and manufacture it to a standard

that we can start dosing people next week and aim to have 1,000 people vaccinated eight months later in this trial that we are planning in oxford and other parts of the uk. >> okay. so, explain to me this because, yes, we understand you have to do human trials. your vaccine will be the fourth to enter human trials. some of the others, obviously, are starting with way smaller groups. you're starting with a much bigger group, 1,000. some of those are control but still starting with 500 people is ten times more than other vaccines in phase one. how are you able to do that? why is it that you are not afraid of severe adverse effects? >> that's a great question. because what we're immunizing with is a vaccine type that has literally been given to thousands of people already in 22 different clinical trials, and it's been shown safe in all of those trials. we understand that, because the

virus literally cannot grow, cannot replicate in the arm. and we have the advantage of having worked in the cliveng with most closely related vaccine you can imagine to this coronavirus, which is another coronavirus for middle east syndrome. that vaccine was effective. and in clivengal trials it's been very safe and looks very promising. so because of that, the regulators in london, and that's a very stringent regulator authority, have had the confidence of so many other vaccine types based on the same technology that unlike rna vaccines that are new and unproven, we know this is a potent vaccine technology. it works with a single dose and regulations have seen it so many times before that they have the

confidence to go ahead and toe if we can get an efficacy result this summer. that's crucial not just because we want a vaccine sooner rather than later but it's crucial to vaccinate while there's still a peak in the country. rather than 20,000 or 200,which you would need once the pandemic dies down. >> because of people's exposure. okay. so when we talk to other people working on vaccines, and as you point out, obviously, it's extremely complicated for most of us, but there's different technologies, whether it's rna or what you're talking about, okay? we are hearing, though, from others who are very optimistic about the vaccines they're working on, that they're talking about the fall of 2021 or early '22. you are just, as i said, literally a full year ahead of their best case scenarios. so, do you have any concern that you're being overly optimistic, that that just seems, for lack of a better word, too good to be

true? >> we don't think so. if you think about what happened five years ago with ebola, vaccine was rushed into clivengal trials. they had one go at testing it, and it worked, and that vaccine is now licensed. they had a result of going from humans into an that can be done. >> how long did it take if this works for you to get the doses? because once you -- making millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of doses, that -- if everything you're saying about efficacy and safety is correct, that hurdle may be the biggest of all. >> i agree it's the biggest of all. it's one we haven't cracked yet, but we're talking to manufacturers in three continents, including some of the biggest vaccine manufacturers in the world, one in india, one in china as well as europe and america and

they're all very, very keen to scale up and we're helping them scale up as quickly as possible. no, we're not going to have a billion doses available in october. we should have millions a month or two after we have an efficacy result and the scaleup will be accelerating from there. because we've never done this before, we can't guarantee what the level of supply will be. certainly we're being very ambitious to meet what's needed. >> well, professor hill, i really appreciate your taking the time. i know it's late there. i know everyone wanted to hear what you had to say and i thank you, sir. >> thank you. all right. i want to bring dr. jonathan reiner in. currently the director of the gw cath lab. you heard dr. hill walk through this, why he is so confident in terms of the type of vaccine it is and the safety profile of the

vaccine. do you think it's possible? i mean, obviously i know you're not involved in the technicals of this, but that there could be some sort of a solution like this, which is so much earlier than anything else we have been promised in terms of a possible vaccine? >> we'll have to see. the breath-taking pace of vaccine development now is occurring throughout the world. there are about 70 vaccines in development, and what innovators and manufacturers are doing is they're compressing a lot of the development cycle. so rather than doing animal studies and then in a serial fashion moving into phase 1 and phase 2 trials, some companies are combining animal studies and phase 1 trials at the same time, so doing them in parallel. we're also seeing companies start to think about ramping up manufacture while the trials are still going on. so that's a huge financial risk for a company, but it's a way to

scale up production before you have an answer and that, i think, is going to be one solution for having billions of doses of a vaccine available shortly after we know that a vaccine works. it's financial risk and it's something the world's governments are going to have to participate in and help the companies take a risk to do that. >> that's a really interesting point. that's what professor hill is talking about. they're trying to get approval. yeah, there's a risk it doesn't work. if it does, you're going to want those millions of doses. i think as he made clear and you point out, for them they believe that could be the biggest hurdle of all hurdles. if they work, who cares. if you don't have the doses to give people. in tonight's briefing, dr. reiner, the president reiterated his claim that the united states is testing more than any other country. this is how he put it tonight. >> we have now completed more than 3.5 million tests, by far the most anywhere in the world. areas of our country that have

been hot spots have done much more testing on a per capita basis than south korea. we've done more than south korea, and south korea has done a good job, but we've done more. >> so, dr. reiner, in terms of the facts, we're neck in neck, a little behind south korea per capita but what they test for is different. they test everyone you came into contact with, even if they have no symptoms. they're testing random people. they're finding asymptomatic people. it's extremely different than the model in the united states, which is essentially no symptoms, no test. >> yes. >> why is that still the model in the u.s.? if it's true that there's this excess capacity that the president keeps talking about? >> yeah, i'm not sure this excess capacity. first of all, it's taken us forever to get to this point. the u.s. has tested a little less than 10,000 tests per million people in this country.

think about italy. italy has tested 16,000 tests per million people. so we're still playing catchup. and in many parts of the country it's hard to get a test. i got a call from an old friend in new york this weekend who felt sick, called the testing center, went to the testing center, by the time she got there, there were no more tests. this is in april. so it's still not easy to get tested. in fact, if you don't have symptoms, you want to get tested, asymptomatic, you are concerned, you can't get tested. so testing remains a problem. one of the pieces of the re-opening plan that's absent is a widespread plan to test asymptomatic people. dr. birx said they will do the sentinel testing in high risk groups like nursing homes, but what we really need during this re-opening plan, surveillance plan, is a plan to widely test asymptomatic people because we know that's the reservoir for

the virus. >> right. that's where it lurks. and then, of course, infects others who will not be asymptomatic and you get another surge. dr. reiner, i appreciate your time. as always, thank you. >> my pleasure. president trump making his announcement tonight as the number of americans who have filed for unemployment in the last four weeks now stands at 22 million. that is now about 13.5% of the united states labor force, and there is more bad news on this front. small business owners who were hoping to get a loan from the program set up by the small business administration will now see a notice like this on the website telling them the program has already run out of money. we're "out front." >> we have served several hundred, over 1,000 for sure. >> reporter: tom sulpa and his team load hundreds of meals. they're donating even though he is in need himself.

a month ago fear gripped sopet as coronavirus shut down los angeles restaurants. are you scared? >> yeah. >> reporter: now that has turned to anger as the married father of a toddler waits for a loan from the paycheck protection program or ppp from his bank, wells fargo. >> then i was calling basically almost every day, wait on the phone for about an hour. so every day we're just looking at our bank account, just waiting for the money. >> reporter: now the small business administration says the ppp program is out of cash. it is a life line, a forgivable loan that gives businesses 2.5 times their monthly payroll, 75% of that must go to workers. it's been a battle to get the available money. >> we're desperate for this

relief from the government. >> bear with me. >> it's been call after call to the bank for owners of studio metamorphos metamorphosis, shut down for a month unable to pay bills or staff until finally this notification. >> what does this now mean for you guys? >> this means we have help. we know we're assured at least to pay our staff. >> that was the number one thing for us is to take care of our team. >> okay, guys. we have something to announce. >> reporter: on a staff call the owners shared the news. the ppp loan will help cover the payroll. >> looks like we're going to get some money for you guys. >> reporter: until the end of may. >> that's amazing. >> that's awesome. >> reporter: cheering here is matt wood, studio metamorphosis employee. >> that's my girl. >> reporter: and new dad to

2-week-old lavender. >> there's so much to get a bill passed but it's very scary waiting for that bill to come through. >> reporter: these funds stop after eight weeks. their message to capitol hill arguing now over the next stimulus bill, the clock is ticking. >> there we go. >> we need the funds now. we cannot wait. >> put partisanship aside. >> yeah. >> you came up with it. you all come together for us. we need it. >> reporter: sulpit has even less time. his business and donations to hospitals have only days before he's completely underwater. of course, to get the government loan money you have to go through a bank. that's something tom sulpit did but after two weeks with no official word from wells fargo, he was told he could apply for the loan but now, of course, erin, they are out of money. wells fargo in a statement to cnn says it has now launched new automation and technology to

process a high volume of applications, something they will continue so this is funded. they're going to immediately submit them to the sba. >> thank you very much. thanks so much to all of you for joining us. as always, cnn's global town hall, "coronavirus facts and fears" with dr. sanjay gupta and anderson cooper begin now. welcome. i'm anderson cooper in new york. >> i'm dr. sanjay gupta. this is the cnn global town hall, "coronavirus facts and fears." it's our seventh one. tonight white house coronavirus correspondent dr. deborah birx will be here to answer your questions. >> she's part of the team that has the phased lifting. it's a deep state to decide when and how to lift any