we'll be talking about it as well. have a great night. i am chris cuomo. welcome to prime time. is the worst behind us? now, trump said that, and he will be right but only if we do the right things right now. and here's the problem. the right things are the hard things. and we haven't seen this president and his pals do well with making hard calls up to this point. hey, the head of the coronavirus task force, the vice president, didn't even wear a mask at the mayo clinic. why not? he has an answer. it's even more surprising than what he did. another surprise, we're going to run out of meat? we're going to test the situation going on in the country right now and the president's remedy. we also have the governor of ohio to test his call to reopen in part on friday. can he test and trace enough? we'll see. and we must remember one of our best who was lost to this silent killer in this pandemic.

we all mourn when a health care her row is lost because we are one in this. what do you say? let's get after it. the president is not only recognizing the need for testing now. he also gave you some key insights today. >> well, it will go down to zero ultimately. if you test, you are going to show many more cases. at the appropriate time it will be down to zero. >> now, first of all, you have to remember that trump told you that covid would be gone by now. all right? there is no science behind his suggestions but you know that already at this point or i hope you do. but there is a key part of that statement that you may miss. he just told you why he ducked testing for so long, and they did duck it. more testing means more cases identified. trump did not like the idea of

showing how fast covid was spreading seeing how he was calling it a host and saying it was going to go away and only be a dozen or so cases. now we have to be careful not just to throw barbs and play gotcha. no, no. we have to talk about it so we don't repeat it. new models are projecting thousands more lives may be claimed by states if they reopen before they're ready. florida has a stay-at-home order that expires friday. the governor there, governor desantis, talked reopening plans with trump today and hit back at critics saying he waited too long initially to shut things down. >> you look at some of the most draconian orders issued in these states and compare florida in terms of our hospitalizations per one hundred thousand and fatalities per one hundred thousand. d.c., maryland, new jersey, massachusetts, michigan,

indiana, ohio, illinois, you name it, florida has done better. >> i wonder if that list is also accurate in terms of that list of kids on spring break. i wonder if those states were all affected by that. better, draconian. is that really the right way to be talking about the only thing that made a difference here? let's take the situation to ohio's governor, republican mike dewine. always good to have you on prime time, sir. i hope you and the family are healthy. >> chris, thank you. how are you doing? >> better than i deserve. the family is doing great. we are among the lucky ones, no question about it. my wife and my son howard. i, as i all suspected, am the weak link. governor, let me ask you this, governor desantis, this is not a

competition, it is not which governor is doing great. you are doing well in polls in your state for how your handling things. but the idea that mistakes were made where you are because you have more deaths, for example, or more people hospitalized per o hundred thousand, is that a fair metric for you? >> well, i can only focus on ohio. you know, chris, we did this pretty early, we had the arnold classic scheduled, and we stopped it. it was the first big decision to stop anything in the country. and we did that. and what i'm seeing now is good. but we're still losing people. every life that's lost is just horrible. but we have seen not only a flattening now, but a decline that began about a week or so ago in hospitalization. and, so, it is not going down as fast as we would like, but the hospitalization is, in fact, going down. so we're happy about that.

last week we got a huge break in signing a contract for some real testing. by tomorrow we'll be up 7,500 a day. that will that will double next week and end up in 3 weeks at 22,000 tests per day which is a huge jump for us. i mean, that's a huge -- >> right. >> now we're also -- we're also working with partners in health to stand up our tracing around the state of ohio and so we're going to -- we're going to go after it. i like being on offense a lot better than on defense, and we're very happy about that. we're starting to open up a little bit. not fast enough, obviously, for a lot of people, but we're trying to do this in a reasonable way that gives people confidence that they can go to the businesses and they will be safe, so this friday we start really opening up with our hospitals and next week we go

into manufacturing that's not already open. and then on the 12th of may we move to retail. we're not yet to restaurants. we're trying to plot that out and working with folks who run restaurants to see exactly how -- >> right. >> -- we can do that to keep people protected. but it's a kind of layered rollout and we couldn't have done it, frankly, if we didn't have a lot more testing that we now have that capability which is -- >> so let's talk about that. >> -- a really great thing. >> governor, rate of increase of testing is important but, you know, you guys are so far behind. not your fault. not anybody's fault. just the reality, you know. who cares about the blame. you just have to increase the game here. right? so do you feel confident, and tell us why, the stuff that you're re-opening you'll be able to cover with the amount of testing and tracing, very key component, and why that offsets

a concern that you haven't completely met the cdc guidelines, you should be giving it more time. why do you have confidence that you can do it the way you're doing it this friday? >> well, we're really trying -- we're going to be doing two things and there's two big concern. one, you want to do the tracing and get the tracing up so you can actually trace every single person that you know has tested positive. that's a big deal. we've not been able to do that to nearly the extent we want to do it. with more testing, we're going to be able to reach more of these individuals and then go find out who they were in contact with and try to, you know, isolate that. be on the offense. so we feel, you know, good about that. it certainly is a work in progress. we're not there yet, but it is a work in progress. the -- you know, we're doing the rollout, i mean, i've been watching numbers, good numbers as far as hospitalization for, you know, ten days or so. really good. and, you know, it's going down

and so that's movement in the right direction and we now have -- >> it's definitely movement in the right direction, but cdc wants two weeks. they want two weeks of down. you don't have two weeks of down. do you believe that that is just a guideline? >> we will be -- >> that you have a better metric? >> now, look, i think, you know, if we're ten days now, by the time we open much of anything, we're going to be over two weeks. all we're doing this friday, everybody says may 1st, but the only thing we're doing on friday is hospitals and that's really getting people -- starting to get people caught up on medical procedures that, you know, would have been good if they had had before. >> yeah. >> we're not going up until may 4th, we're not going up until may 4th until we even open manufacturing and may 12th -- >> right, that's why i'm not chasing you, by the way. >> it's a couple weeks. >> i don't think it's fair to chase you about hospitals. they have their own protocols and things. look, we've gotten to know each other. i'm not going to come at you unfairly. i understand how difficult the

balance is here. people are so anxious to re-open in every possible way. it's hart to hold it back and be reasoned. you've done a good job there by everybody's assessment. let me ask you about something that's getting some temperature because you're not opening up enough fast enough for some people, you're opening up too fast for other people. tough spot. that's leadership. you wanted the job. the idea of masks in the retail sector, you say it's not going to be mandatory. you should wear masks when you're around, you advise, but when you go in the stoerre, you don't have to wear them. why does that matter? >> well, here's what we did. we put a working group together, business group, that came back and they said, all the businesses are opening up, all the ones that actually have already been in place, everybody wears a mask. not only does every employee wear a mask, but anybody who's coming into these manufacturing companies, and many of them are doing it already, but this makes it complete. so we're very happy about that. the issue was on retail. and what we have said is that employees should wear a mask. most grocery stores now are doing that, anyway, but as we

expand to jewelry stores and other things, we want them to do that. where we really got the real pushback, quite candidly, is when we said, look, we're going to mandate that a consumer, when you go into a jewelry store, you go into a grocery store, you're going to have to wear a mask and it was quite candidly pretty much an explosion. people felt affronted by that. and felt that, you know, had people say, look, you don't trust us, we can make our own decisions. it was clear, chris, that that pushback was sincere and touch and, frankly, we thought it might endanger a lot of the other things that we are trying to do. and so my hope, my hope, is that everyone wears a mask. i've said, look, i go out in public, i wear a mask. >> i've seen it. >> advised my family to do that and because what this does is it protects the workers and, you

know, i had a lot of family members call me in the last few weeks about grocery stores, look, my son's in there, my dad's in there working, i'm afraid for him. just made sense for customers coming in to wear masks so i hope -- yet i know i'm talking to a lot of ohioans, but you have the right to not wear one but i hope you do because it really is the right thing to do to protect the people who are working there and the people who are -- >> right. >> -- you know, serving us every single day. >> tough balance. tough call. we'll see how it goes. it's interesting, thank you for unpacking the dynamic because i want people to understand how this goes. i'm short on time but i want to ask you this. so the president was hammering the decision to have mail-in voting. you made a different decision. have you seen any indication yet that mail-in ballots in any way corrupted your election? is there any proof of fraud that you've been told by your secretary of state or other

precinct officials? >> well, i had the secretary of state, frank larose, on on our daily press conference to kind of give a report and tell people they still had until 7:30 tonight. that's over with, of course, now. >> right. >> but until 7:30 tonight to bring it to the board of elections. look, we have seen no -- no problem. i'm not aware of any problem that frank has told me about. i don't -- i don't see a problem. we're used to doing this in ohio. i mean, we run -- >> right. >> -- absentee ballots, not exclusi exclusively, but people have had the right to for a long time to vote for an entire month absentee and many people have gotten used to it and do it and our boards of election and everybody is used to dealing with it. >> governor, thank you very much. these are tough calls. and like i said -- >> thanks, chris. >> -- i know you're opening up on friday. i'm not going to chase you about the 14 days when you're talking about hospitals. don't think that's a fair basis of criticism. we'll see how it goes. how the state goes. you're always welcome here to make the case of what you're doing and how it's working. >> thanks, chris.

all right. now, here's what's not a tough call. you walk into a place, let alone a hospital, that has a mask rule, you better wear one. the vice president wasn't wearing a mask at the mayo clinic like everybody else around him. i don't know if you've seen the picture. he has a rationale. let's see if that would work for anybody else and if it even makes sense. that's just the first point. we have a lot of important things to talk about with dr. sanjay gupta next. this is an athlete, twenty reps deep, sprinting past every leak in our softest, smoothest fabric. she's confident, protected, her strength respected. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you. i got up, i put make up on. i have jeans on, who is she? family run! sometimes you like modify a recipe and it's so good! your girl, is still losing,

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get relief behind the allecounter with claritin-d.ion claritin-d improves nasal airflow 2x more than the leading allergy spray at hour 1. claritin-d. get more airflow. in a now-deleted tweet, the mayo clinic of minnesota wrote it had, quote, informed the vice president of the masking policy prior to his arrival today. now, you can delete a tweet, you can't delete reality. take a look. the v.p. was the only one who chose not to wear a mask. why not? here's how he explained it.

>> when the cdc issued guidelines about wearing a mask, it was their recognition that people who may have the coronavirus could prevent the possibility of conveying the virus to someone else by wearing a mask. and since i don't have the coronavirus, i thought it'd be a good opportunity for me to be here, to be able to speak to these researchers, these incredible health care personnel, and look them in the eye and say thank you. >> does the mask cover your eyes? look, you can make an excuse for anything, but let's bring in dr. sanjay gupta because this is a teachable moment. of course, if you're supposed to wear a mask, you should wear a mask. that's not the lesson. if you think you have 100% confidence because you tested negative once, twice, three times, sanjay, isn't the reality that we don't know that you're 100% not contagious when you test negative? and that that test is only -- >> right. >> -- as good as the day it's

own. >> yeah. yeah. no question. by the way, chris, i'd be remiss if i didn't compliment you on the new do. looks really good. >> the mrs. did it. >> nice job. >> i don't want to say anything more, i'll get in trouble. >> i think she did a really nice job. >> she used a 1 here and here, used a 2 and a 4. she'll probably yell at me down here if i get the numbers wrong. here it was an 8 except for here because i wanted to leave coverage for the power alleys, she brushed it down, cut it with a scissors like that. not bad. >> really nice. >> thank you, sanjay. >> have a very talented -- you're welcome. >> she didn't do bad. >> you make a good point -- she did pretty good. vice president pence, he should have worn a mask today. i mean, there's no question -- >> of course. >> -- about it. first of all, it sets a good example. it's the policy of the hospital, right? this is the policy of the hospital. a lot of people get tested. i work in a hospital. i get tested. i still wear a mask. second of all -- i mean, third of all, it's the hospital in a middle of a pandemic. i mean, the -- that's a time

when you wear a mask. he's seeing patients. there are sick patients. this is potentially risky. but the two teaching points, chris, i think you bring up are really important. number one, when you get a negative test, that is a point in time. that is a point in time that you are negative. so if he's getting tested periodically, that's great, but you don't really know. you could have another exposure and potentially harbor the virus in your body, have no symptoms as i think everyone knows. second point, something we don't talk enough about, we talk about the tests. the tests, even the ones for the vice, chris, have a 15% false negative rate. >> right. >> this is something that's going to be an increasingly large issue as we move forward. these tests got to work well if we're going to have confidence to put people in the workforce. 15% false negative rate is a really high rate. saying to people, you have an 85% chance this is correct, but maybe you still have the virus, we didn't catch it. that's going to have to be addressed. also the vice president realizes that. so i hope he's negative. he looks like he doesn't have any symptoms -- >> god willing. >> -- which is great but those

are teachable points. >> yeah, god willing we need our leaders healthy. look, i'm not in the gotcha game. think it's a waste of time. i think people are turn the off by it. all i'm saying is, look, at some point you got to start being able to take any kind of responsibility for anything that's negative at some point. this administration has never done a damn something wrong ever and can't own it. i guarantee you, people will find ways to defend them by attacking me but won't own the obvious. that's politics. lets move it to the side. i don't want to muddy you with politics. you're bedder th better than th. the president says we're going to be up at 5 million testing in no time. how? how, how can you explain we're going to scale up as fast as he says even though that won't be enough? but can we get there that fast? >> i think i'd have a hard time imagining how that would happen. let me show you the numbers, chris, in terms of where we are,

where we need to be and where we ultimately need to go. right now, total, okay, 5.5 million tests, 5.8 million tests total. what the white house said they're going to be doing as a result of the plans they released yesterday, about 2% roughly of the country a month. okay? 6 million to 7 million tests a month. what does this new plan from harvard, the roadmap says 5 million tests a day by june then 20 million tests a day by midsummer. so the white house plan, 6 million to 7 million tests a month. ultimately, we need to be at 20 million a day. so, you know, i mean, it's a whole magnitude of difference here in terms of where the goals are being set and where they need to be. and, you know, a lot of things need to come together. if you're going to be from 6 million to potentially 600 million tests a month, you know, there's all those reagents, the swabs, all the things we've been talking about, chris, have to be in place. maybe there will be new breakthroughs in testing which really help this equation, but this doesn't look like we're planning for what needs to be done right now. >> right. remember, he's not going to do

it. the states are going to do it. and they're cash strapped. >> right. >> it maketakes manpower. the tracing has to go hand in hand with it because every time you get a negative, you have to chase it down. that's why we're still not talking about tracing. i want to check two more boxes with you before we run out of time. one, antibodies. >> sure. >> what's the latest thinking on whether or not, you know, you have any cause to celebrate if god forbid you get covid and you get through it or don't even know you had it and you have antibodies. >> the honest answer is we don't know for sure right now in terms of whether or not it's going to give you protection and if it does how long or how strong. many -- many people believe, and i think with good reason, that it should behave like other viruses including other coronaviruses which means you will get some immunity for some period of time. that's going to be important. made the graph, chris, i promised you last night just to show you this. >> thanks. >> how the antibodies come about. the blue line is the symptoms of your infection. green line is igm. people are going to start knowing these terms they never

thought they'd have to know before. the red line is igg. you can see these two antibodies sort of cross over for a period of time. i think you said you had both i think, if i remember what you told me yesterday. >> yeah. >> so you can look -- >> i have the level -- >> -- where they meet there. yeah, low level of igm and you have igg so you're probably -- >> yeah. >> you know, i wouldn't be surprised if you still had some mild symptoms because you're still in that sort of, you know, out of the window of active infection but still symptomatic a little bit. according to that graph. everyone's different, obviously. i wanted you to see where you probably are on the trajectory of your illness, chris. >> very helpful. i tell you what, we'll talk offline. i had that blood panel done and i'll tell you what, i think you guys are going to learn this virus is doing all kinds of crazy stuff to us because my blood work is kooku. nobody would understand, anyway. hay don't care. i'll talk to you about it offline because i was -- >> okay. >> -- my doctor was like, sit me down when she talked about my blood work today. this is going to take a while to

get back to where you were before you get this virus. now, let me ask you something else. meat. this idea of tyson saying, listen, we got a problem here, we have a lot of workers in tight paces where it's tough to keep them. the president says, i got this, i'll basically make them essential workers. the workers are like, whoa, we can't be kept safe. this is tough. what's the balancing test here? how do you do this right? >> this is a really tough one, i mean, because there's something besides just distance here in this equation and this is something you and i talked about. the cdc has a whole set of guidelines just for this industry so people should look at this but you can see how seriously the cdc is trying to take this as well. problem is you have distance, six feet, but also duration. you know, this is why restaurants are probably potentially problematic because you sit somewhere for an hour or so potentially in proximity, even if you're physically distant away, it's duration-prolonged contact that seems to be a bit of an issue as well and that goes back to the

meat packing industry because people actually next to each other -- i watched these videos from tyson in terms of how things are normally done and people are staying next to each other for hours on end. so how do you separate people and cut down on that duration and still actually, you know, manufacture at the level you need to manufacture? i don't know. it's really challenging, and people have died, obviously, who worked for the company and that sends a psychological wave through things as well. people are really frightened, understandably, that they might contract the virus there. >> tyson's own numbers have thousands of people being affected by the virus. but this is going to be a tough call. there's going to -- people are going to be unhappy no matter what in this situation, but this is really the biggest blow, potential, potential blow, to the food supply chain that we've seen. this is something we're going to have to watch closely because it is a very tough set of circumstances. sanjay gupta, thank you for being the best of us, as always. >> see you soon, buddy. >> all right. the president insists we

have enough testing to begin re-opening america again. now, by the way, that can't be right, but that answer isn't enough, either. the math will tell the story. my next guest says it's going to take tens of billions to properly test and trace. remember, they're not talking about tracing yet. we have to. it matters as much as the testing. okay? to isolate those who have it and who they may have spread it to. there's a plan for congress that we're going to float past you. what do you think about it, let's see, next. ♪ ♪

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all right. so now we're talking testing. great because testing is huge. but here's the reality. we will need more testing than anybody is talking about no

matter what numbers they're throwing around on the federal level or they're planning for. we're still nowhere close. now here's the other word that you just have to put into your vocabulary on this. "tracing. "why? because for every positive case you get, what about the people they've been in contact with? who's going to find them? those are all potential positive cases. you're not hearing about it, why? it's another scary thing that this government is shy on and it takes manpower. and manpower takes money. i know this is uncomfortable for a lot of leaders. that's too bad. you need to be aware we have to be talking about it. it's going to make a big difference in what our new normal looks like. okay? so, let's bring in formert admis of medicare and medicaid, andy slavi str slavit. andy, welcome back to "prime time." thanks for being with us. number one, they're throwing out impressive numbers about how they want to ramp up testing at the federal level, how they'll carry through to the states.

the numbers are still nowhere near what experts who are looking at this suggest we'd have to do to have any real sense of how we're doing with this virus in real time. >> yeah, i think it's going to be a few months and, look, even at a few months' time we're not going to be able to test everybody who wants one. we just saw data today which showed that 92% of people who wanted a test were not able to get one. now, i think that's probably better today than it was then, but it's still nowhere close to what the president said which is that everybody who wants a test should be able to get one and that's what we need to aim for. >> right. and, look, even if they had the raw number of tests they need, which they don't, that's a disingenuous answer because it's not just about having the test, it's about the things that go along with it. the reagent and all the different things to apply the test. the labs to process. the manpower to process. you know, all that part. and then you have tracing. now, you tutored me early on on

why nobody was talking about tracing. it's too hard and it was too scary for -- because it's too hard to find the people and it takes a lot of time and every day that you can't find somebody is another day that they're infecting more people and it's just better to ignore this, but we can't ignore it anymore, can we? >> look, i think the hope is once we get the number of cases under control that what we've been living through, chris, particularly new york has been a forest fire. what we want to do, we're not going to get rid of covid-19 but what we can do is hope that every time we can imagine it, we can manage it to little campfires and see a little campfire, we can surround it, it doesn't -- we put some stones around it, we water the ground. that's what this is all about. it's about making sure that we have small number of cases and that if i get sick and i find out that i'm sick that somebody helps me figure out who were all the people that i was in contact

with in some sort of systemic way because i don't want them to get sick and that's what we're talking about here. so we put a proposal together in front of congress yesterday that we hope they act on that i think is going to help really make -- >> right, that's what i'm reading about wiwhil while you' talking. slavitt and scott gottlieb. $46.5 billion for tracing and isolating. $12 billion to help expand the contact tracing workforce by 180,000 people. 4.5 billion. to use vacant hotels to isolate the people you wind up tracing and figure out need to be monitored/tested. 30 billion over 18 months of income support. $30 million to offer 18 months of income support per person steven stifened at 50 bucks per day for self-isolating.

the pushback will be, are you crazy, all this money, all this people, for what? we'll just test and we're nef goi never going to get to zero. you guys are being hypersee hypersensitive. not a science test. not an academic discussion at harva harvard. this is reality. get with it. >> that's why scott saand i puld together 14 other people incl e including the guy who cured smallpox, including the guy who helped prevent aids from spreading by doing all the contact tracing. and people from both parties. we talked to congress, we talked to the white house. we wanted to get their concerns and, indeed, people have some legitimate concerns and we think we addressed all of them. fundamentally by saying, look, number one, we will help you in a private, secure, way figure out who you've been in contact with so you don't spread this around. number two, if you need to isolate and you don't have room at home because you don't have a big enough house, you have a one-bedroom apartment, you live with your grandmother, we will put you in a nice hotel space.

you can watch chris cuomo at night, can watch two weeks of cable until you're better, then third is for people who live paycheck to paycheck and their employer is not going to pay them, they're not going to be able to socially isolate. so for those two weeks those folks really are performing a civil service. they're keeping the rest of us healthy. so we ought to pay them over those weeks a small stipend like jury duty, a civil service, and we'll be able to contain this virus. i think with the people who sign this letter and the conversations that we've had, i'm very hopeful that it comes across as a credible, practical solution and it's also a stimulus for the economy. >> why is it a stimulus for the economy? >> well, first of all, i think giving 180,000 people working was not nothing. we'll also put $5 billion into the hotel and motel industry because they have a lot of vacant rooms then we'll put some money in people's pockets that needs to be there.

so we think this -- but even more so, chris, this will help us open up the economy faster because once you're able to test and trace, you can look around and say, hey, wait a minute, i feel safer. i feel like i can go to work. i feel like i may be able to bring my employees back. i feel like maybe i can work again because i know not that there won't be any covid-19 but if there is any, they'll be able to find out where it is and who it's impacted and it's that feeling of safety we need to get back to the people of this country. >> all right. so let's talk about that last part here because i think it is the big "x" factor which is how will americans feel with more cases? i think it's the hardest thing to measure. we were all freaked out when this happened. we didn't want any cases. everybody stayed home because they didn't want to get sick. i suggest to you, and i want your better take, that's going to fade and people's appetites for doing what they want to do will overwhelm what is needed to do to keep cases really low and

they'll say, but you know what, i'm okay with it. and, yeah, i know that there's still more cases, i know cases are coming, i know it's taking longer because we're doing these things, but i want to do these things and i know some people are dying, but i'm okay with it. fatigue. and the only part i don't like about the fatigue, because i think society should, you know, have whatever mores the masses suggest, is it's going to be minorities and people in socioeconomic and tough spots with pre-existing conditions that live in impoverished areas who are going to be paying the biggest price and it's going to be an uneven distribution, but that "x" factor of fatigue, of concern, is that one of the biggest things to watch? >> oh, completely. look, i think, first of all, it's obviously been very hard on people. it's been hard on everybody. if it's not been hard on you economically or from a health standpoint, it's been hard on you soeslogic-- we're used to h support system around us. we don't have that. on the other hand, i can't be more impressed with the way the

american public has responded to this threat. i think there's been a unity, a sense of sacrifice. i think -- i think, quite frankly, lots of lives have been saved. we spared our hospitals from being overrun by and large. we're giving our scientists time. and the public really pulled together. i mean, yes, there's protests on tv. yes, there's all kinds of angst. yes, there's governors o erors this and that. there's been really reliable polls including one by the kaiser family foundation says 80% of people believe in what they've been doing. now, i think that will fade over time, chris. it has to. people can't keep this up forever. but i have to say it's been incredibly impressive. >> uh-huh. >> and incredibly encouraging. i think hopefully at least some of that spirit of camaraderie, community, will last. >> look, first of all, thank you for coming on the show

explaining this. it's provocative what we talk about. we have to talk about tracing. it's as important as testing. they all go together. we're not talking about them that much because they create political risk for people and we're in an environment where our leaders, especially up top, take as little risk as they can but i say all the time, nobody got it wrong. the american people got it right. they did things that couldn't be predicted in the projections initially. we did better than anyone would have expected. how we will do going forward remains to be seen. but, andy, i love you, and thank you. now, look, everybody, we've got to do more, literally, we, we are going to have to continue to step up and continue to forebear. but nobody is putting themselves on the line the way our health care workers are. and nobody's paying the price the way they are. we just lost a doctor who actually survived her own covid battle. she then took her own life this weekend. w why? because that's how hard it is. and that's how many are hurting. the emotional toll, the

psychological toll, the mental health toll of this virus attacks every bit as much as the virus attacks us physically and we're ignoring it and i don't want to do that tonight. sh she defserves better. we have her father here tonight. she was in the trenches. he wants to tell her story about what it is that killed her and what you need to know about how chef li she lived her life. next. meet jim. for jim, comfort is king. which is why when it comes to his dentures only new poligrip cushion and comfort will do. the first and only formula with adaptagrip cushioning technology. choose new poligrip cushion and comfort.

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i hope by now you are aware that this virus is attacking our body completely. and that includes our minds. our emotions. every bit as it does any other organ and system in the body. health care workers, especially the ones on the front lines,

they're feeling this more than most. distress calls are up. we see it in the data. people are being killed from the mental and emotional toll. just happened to one of our hero this past sunday. dr. lorna breen. now, the doctor treated covid patients at new york presbyterian hospital. by all accounts, she was well respected and by all accounts she stepped up with the best during the worst of this. she even contracted covid, herself. dealt with it. as soon as she was better, she went back to work. and then after all she did for others, sunday she died by suicide. her father says she was killed by the enemy on the front lines, and i'm sad to say, he's right. he is a retired surgeon. his name is dr. phillip breen and he joins us now. doctor, can you hear me? can you see me? >> yes, indeed, i can.

i can hear you very well. thank you. >> doctor, i am very sorry to meet you under these circumstances, and i hope you g accept not just my condolences but my thanks for your daughter in the city where i and so many other millions live for doing the work of keeping so many safe. especially when it came at such a cost to her and to you, her family. thank you, sir. >> you're very welcome. >> what do people need to know about who your daughter was and what she was about? >> well, she was a doctor every bit of the word that a doctor should be. she put her life on the line to take care of other people. she was in the trenches, so to speak, right in the front line as people were dying left and right around her. and, indeed, as you pointed out, she contracted the virus, herself, went home sick. had it proven that she did have

the virus and, indeed, stayed home for just a little more than a week which i don't think was enough in hindsight, but she -- i think she felt an overwhelming sense of wanting to help her colleagues and her friends who were still fighting the good fight and so she strapped on her harness and took the bit in her mouth and she went back. and she -- talked to her just before her final 12-hour shift and during the time she was on that shift, she basically went down in the traces like a horse that had too heavy a load and couldn't go a step further and just went down. so she went down. she was retrieved and brought back by her family to charlottesville, virginia, where she was hospitalized for a brief period of time. judged well enough to be out on her own but clearly was not better and her sisters told me you could see in her eyes that

there was something not there. but any rate, as of sunday, she took her own life because i think she was tired and she was the kind as somebody very aptly put it. she was like the fireman who runs into the burning building to save a life and doesn't regard anything about herself. she has paid the price and she's been in the trenches. >> doctor, i'm -- i can't imagine what it's like for you to have to talk through this about your own child, but at least you have the legacy of her commitment, following in your footsteps and creating her own path. and just so people understand. before this experience, was the doctor struggling with anything that -- >> no. >> -- known to you and your family? >> no, not at all. as a matter of fact, we talked about it quite a bit before and during, and we have reviewed the

other members of the family, and concluded that if we ever were trying to prognosticate about who would be solid, lorna would have been the very last person to have lost her equilibrium, so to speak. she had not one xfiniscintilla y emotion or problem or anything. she was a very outgoing person. she was a snowboarder. she played the cello in one of the orchestras in town. she volunteered at a nursing home. she was a salsa dancer. she just did everything, and everybody thought she was really neat, including me, but when she went, she just ran out of steam completely. and like i say, in my mind, it's sort of like a horse trying to pull a heavy load and she was beat to the point where she went right down on her knees, right between the reins and with the bit in her mouth and died from the -- trying to help. >> well, of course, you understand all this because you

are a clinician. you are a doctor. but a virus like this, first of all, there's huge unknown. we don't understand how it affects the body. but the idea that it would affect your emotions and how you feel and your mental health as well as it would your physical health makes complete sense. but we're just not focused on it. what do you make of that? >> well, here's what i make of that. you know, the point is is that the majority of patients who are dying are dying of pulmonary death. they're basically drowning because their lungs have filled with fluid. and a lot of blame has been put on that. but increasingly in the literature, and i think when this is all said and done, there is going to be a gathering of the evidence that this virus affects the person's mind as well as their physical being, like their lungs and that it is -- has worked on the brains of people who are sick without us

even identifying it to begin with. lorna would be an example of somebody who is a poster child for proving that this virus is, indeed, working on people's minds and psych logic equilibrium and wreaking great havoc. but this remains to come into the literature as time goes on. it hasn't really gotten prevalent right now. >> doctor, i must say i really admire your courage and your poise. i know you've seen a lot. i know you're a surgeon and i also know it's different when it's your own family. so once again, just let me say -- i'm not going to belabor this, but your daughter, by all accounts, was just not beautiful inside and out, but she lived a beautiful life. and i just hope you can accept the thanks of people like me and so many whom she helped in this city during a time of really profound need. and i hope that is her legacy in

a young but very full life. doctor, i am so sorry for your loss. >> thank you very much. i would remiss -- i'd be remised by not pointing out that even as we speak there are thousands of people just like her in the front lines doing physical battle with the enemy and getting no recognition, no reward, no nothing for it. so my hat goes off to all these people who are doing their best to do a good job and to take care of their fellow man without questioning about what they're doing to themselves. >> that's very magnanimous of to want others included in your own time of personal loss. you, of course, are correct. there are also too many who suffer in silence about the message and emotional effects of this virus and other illnesses and we will make sure we talk about it much more than we have already. dr. breen, please extend my condolences to the family and let me know if there's anything

we can do. >> very kind of you to say so, and thank you very much. >> thank you, sir. and, listen, let's just start right now, okay? people are suffering in silence. the doctor's, of course, right. we're not giving enough credit nor support to the people fighting this battle for us most acutely. but i want to remind you, if you're taking a toll because of the virus or just the experience we're all living through. it's so traumatic in so many different ways. the national suicide prevention lifeline is always there. 1-800-273-talk. 1-800-273-talk. that's 1-800-173-8255. once again tonight i'll put it out on social media. and, look, don't roll your eyes. don't roll your eyes. it's as real as any manifestation of illness. mind, body, spirit. it is all vulnerable. now, let's keep honoring those on the front lines, all right,

as an homage, as honoring the loss of dr. lorna breen. how some of our heros are helping raise the spirits of one another next. don't bring that mess around here, evan! whoo!

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hey, i wanted don here for this. not just because he's taken over the show right now with "cnn tonight," but he loves a moment like this. people showing their thank yous to health care pros and first responders in new york city. of course the virus epicenter. but this afternoon they saluted each other at one hospital. look at this. now, let me tell you what's happening here. the daughter of a veteran wanted to honor all the people at the